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Roosh V Forum members agree: The real victim in the Stanford rape case is Brock Turner

Brock Turner: Misunderstood martyr?
Brock Turner: Misunderstood martyr?

I find it hard to read about the Stanford rape case for more than a few minutes at a time. The whole thing is so grotesque and awful that I literally start twitching in anger and frustration and have to stop reading.

It took several tries for me to make it all the way through a three-and-a-half minute video from Buzzfeed in which a young woman read excerpts from the deeply unsettling letter the victim read to her attacker in court, and it left my stomach in knots.

Last night, a reader pointed me to what he said were some particularly egregious comments about the case he’d run across on Roosh V’s forum from a fellow who calls himself, perhaps appropriately, the Lizard of Oz. I finally forced myself to read them this morning, and found myself twitching again.

The Lizard is as angry about the case as I am. But he’s not angry at “poor wide-eyed fearful [Brock] Turner,” for violating an unconscious woman, or at the judge for giving Turner only a six month sentence (of which he will likely only serve half).

No, he’s angry at what he describes as “a society full of psychotic princesses and their despicable white-knight enablers which treats its young men as worthless roadkill.” And he’s angry at the woman who was violated for speaking up on her own behalf with what he sees as a suspicious eloquence.

Yes, that’s right. He’s mad at her in part because her letter is too well-written for his taste, complaining that the “emotionally dishonest” document “is a self-consciously literary text written in the hysterical tones of contemporary serious female fiction.” In another comment, he denounces her letter as “literary attention whoring from the first word to the last.”

His comments are worth looking at in some detail, if only as a sort of case study in the ways in which misogyny and rape culture can not only destroy a person’s basic human empathy but also their ability to see the facts right in front of them.

As The Lizard sees it, the only crime here is that a “drunk and confused teenage boy” had his “life …. destroyed” just because he failed to notice that his sex partner had passed out.

The idea that this is a “light sentence” is a tragically misplaced one. In reality, the guy’s life is ruined forever. He will be registered as a sex offender for the remainder of his life. He is an eternal pariah and outcast. All because this slut decided that a few moments of drunkenness were enough to destroy a man’s life for good.

The Lizard has somehow convinced himself, through a rather tortured reading of the victim’s letter, that she “liked” being violated by Turner.

This slut went to the party because she wanted to get drunk and cheat on her boyfriend. She obviously wanted this athlete guy to f**k her as she admits in this key passage from the “victim letter” which you need to parse correctly through its lawyerly wording.

Here’s the passage in question, in which she admits no such thing. (I’m putting quotes from her in blue to distinguish them clearly from his.)

And you’re right, maybe I was still fluttering my eyes and wasn’t completely limp yet, fine. His guilt did not depend on him knowing the exact second that I became unconscious, that is never what this was about. I was slurring, too drunk to consent way before I was on the ground. I should have never been touched in the first place

The meaning of the passage is pretty transparent. She’s not saying she consented. She’s saying that she was clearly, obviously, unquestionably “too drunk to consent.”

The Lizard has a somewhat different take.

In other words she’s admitting she was by no means unconscious when he started “fingering” her which she herself said she “liked”. This kid is now supposed to be a “rapist” because in his own drunkenness he could not figure out the exact moment when the equally drunk girl passed out? Really?

Yes, really. It doesn’t matter what “exact moment” she passed out, you stupid sack of garbage. If you stick your fingers into someone who is passed out, that is rape. If you stick your fingers into someone so drunk they’re on the verge of passing out, that is also rape.

The Lizard puts the word “liked” in quotes, as if it is a direct quote from the victim. It’s not. If you search her statement for the words “like” and “liked,” you won’t find her saying anywhere that she “liked” what Turner did to her.

Here are some of the things you will find. (I will put the words “like” and “liked” in italics.)

A paragraph in which she describes taking a shower in a hospital after several hours of being poked and prodded and examined for evidence of rape.

After a few hours of this, they let me shower. I stood there examining my body beneath the stream of water and decided, I don’t want my body anymore. I was terrified of it, I didn’t know what had been in it, if it had been contaminated, who had touched it. I wanted to take off my body like a jacket and leave it at the hospital with everything else.

A paragraph in which she describes how she learned what happened to her that night in the time between her last memory of the party she was at and when she came to hours later on a hospital gurney.

This was how I learned what happened to me, sitting at my desk reading the news at work. I learned what happened to me the same time everyone else in the world learned what happened to me. That’s when the pine needles in my hair made sense, they didn’t fall from a tree. He had taken off my underwear, his fingers had been inside of me. I don’t even know this person. I still don’t know this person. When I read about me like this, I said, this can’t be me, this can’t be me. I could not digest or accept any of this information.

A paragraph in which she addresses Turner for trying to excuse his actions by claiming he was too drunk to know what he was doing. An excerpt:

Sipping fireball is not your crime. Peeling off and discarding my underwear like a candy wrapper to insert your finger into my body, is where you went wrong. Why am I still explaining this.

A paragraph in which she discusses one way in which the sexual assault has affected her:

I can’t sleep alone at night without having a light on, like a five year old, because I have nightmares of being touched where I cannot wake up, I did this thing where I waited until the sun came up and I felt safe enough to sleep. For three months, I went to bed at six o’clock in the morning.

So where does the idea she “liked it” come from? Not from her, but from Turner. In her letter, she recalls reading a news account of the evening’s events:

In the next paragraph, I read something that I will never forgive; I read that according to him, I liked it. I liked it. Again, I do not have words for these feelings.

Speaking of the word “like,” The Lizard’s comment received fifty “likes” from Roosh V forum users. Here they all are:

MiscBrah, Horus, n/a, BallsDeep, GlobalMan, KidA, Samseau, Captainstabbin, spokepoker, Genghis Khan, RoastBeefCurtains4Me, Burt Gummer, Tokyo Joe, bigrich, gajf77, Comte De St. Germain, Mr. Scumbag, getdownonit, Renton1875, H1N1, Benoit, Chevalier De Seingalt, J. Spice, DJ-Matt, debeguiled, Neo2, Grodin, PUA_Rachacha, VincentVinturi, arafat scarf, Professor Fox, godzilla, Roadrunner, UroboricForms, B TAHKE, MMX2010, yfc4, Grizzles, Ocelot, TooFineAPoint, Polo, DeltaSmelt, Dismal Operator, Gmac, Geomann180, mpr, tradman, Avarence, dies irae, Matrixdude

In a followup comment, The Lizard begs a fellow forum member who actually sees the incident as”obviously a real case of rape” to have some empathy — for Turner.

Please try to think about this in actual human terms and understand what happened here. The idea that a young kid’s life should be ruined forever because of this incident is disgraceful.

It’s not long before The Lizard sets forth a conspiracy theory to explain just why the victim’s letter went viral. Weirdly, it involves Donald Trump.

I can tell you why it went viral:

1. They need this to make up for the loss they took on lyin’ Jackie [last name redacted –DF] in the UVa case — a loss they’re still smarting from.

2. It’s needed as payback for TRUMP — pretty much the fact that he still dares to exist.

Unbelievable. The Lizard concludes:

There is serious evil afoot here. But it’s not in the actions of one drunk confused kid — the evil is in our society and the hysterical extremes it has reached in pandering to female lies.

In a series of followup comments, The Lizard informs us that white men can’t rape:

“Rape” victims are few and far between, and real rapes, violent drag into the bushes rapes, are vanishingly rare on college campuses, and not committed by young white male college students.

That women apparently love — no, LOVE — having sex behind dumpsters:

What I know for sure is that women go to parties and get drunk because they want to f**k; and women, especially when they are drunk and horny, LOVE the idea and the excitement of having sex in public locations to an extent that most prudish men and white-knights can never understand.

That he’s pretty sure the victim didn’t write her letter, because reasons:

I did not believe when I saw it, and I believe less now, that it was written in full by “Emily Doe”. It bears all the marks of a far more experienced, ideological, and nastier hand.

I cannot prove, but strongly suspect, that this document was written in part or in full by Michele Dauber, the Stanford Law professor who has been primarily responsible for coordinating the propaganda campaign in this case.

Several commenters on Roosh’s forum, to their credit, take issue with The Lizard’s arguments, such as they are.

And then there is the odious piece of human garbage who calls himself GlobalMan — who may be a man we have met many times before, since“GlobalMan” was for years the internet moniker used by the extremely odd and terrible person better known as Peter-Andrew: Nolan(c).

Here is his take on the situation:

Wow. If [Turner’s] account is indeed accurate and true, not only is this the furthest thing from rape there could ever be, but it is also quite scary that men have to now worry about roving pairs of violent white knights intruding on any public lustful escapades with a willing and enthusiastic lover because they’ve been trained to view all males with natural virility as a threat to public safety.

What you have is in fact actually a sweet and beautiful scene, two young drunk kids slipping and falling and going at it right where they fell. Not too long ago in history someone would have walked by these kids and smirked, passing by with a smile at the thought of young lust. Now such a scene is cause to use violence to restrain the male and send him off to the gulag for societal castration.

A disgusting and sad outcome if there ever was one.

A “sweet and beautiful scene.” That comment got more than a dozen “likes” from the Roosh V Forum crowd.

I’m twitching again.

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Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
5 years ago

I didn’t realize just how terrible this whole story is until yesterday. Even several Roosh readers agree that it was rape and the guy is a gross rapist, which I’m pretty sure has never happened before (in the case of a white perpetrator).

I don’t even know what more to say about this. It’s just so wrong and horrible. I hope the victim can eventually get back to some kind of normal and happy life, and I hope it’s a long life which won’t contain anything like this ever again.

All of the hugs and support to all our readers and commenters who may have had similar crimes committed against them. I will never have any sympathy for rapists and abusers. Fuck them forever.

Banananana dakry
Banananana dakry
5 years ago

@ryeash

That was a beautiful image in amid all this rest of this, which just fills me with sadness, frustration and fury. Spiky edges FTW.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
5 years ago

a sweet and beautiful scene

Which is why Turner sweetly and beautifully got up and ran when the two Swedish bikers approached. Because there’s nothing more sweet or beautiful than frantically ditching your victim partner to save your own sorry hide.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
5 years ago

@Buttercup

I’ve never been proud of Swedish biker dudes before. This is confusing.

Tashilicious
Tashilicious
5 years ago

The grossest reaction to this I’ve seen has been constant macros going, basically, “FEMINISTS Outraged he only got six months? Why? He’s getting the same sentence as female rapists. Equality!” and I just want to spit and swear and tear and just fuck you dipshits, there is not a single serious feminist who would excuse a short sentence for rape just because the rapist is a woman.

Further and also, douchebags, you don’t care about male victims unless it allows you to bludgeon female victims into silence.

This entire situation just exhausts me.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ buttercup

when the two Swedish bikers approached.

I’ll lay any money that the MRAs will eventually make a reference to “cock blocking” :-/

Patricia Kayden
Patricia Kayden
5 years ago

Of course, MRAs consider the Swedish bicyclists who stopped Brock as the villains, along with the victim. Sigh.

And White males can never rape. Really dudes? One of the silliest things I’ve ever read.

Cupcakes 4 Hitler
Cupcakes 4 Hitler
5 years ago

@patricia

Yea, apparently we are supposed to be grateful for the attention, and enjoy their violation, especially if it follows with pregnancy and the birth of a good White specimen to carry on their Alpha seed line.

I Blame Myself
I Blame Myself
5 years ago

I will never and have never endorsed the use of violence to make a point, unless that point is I am a fucking neanderthal.
But am I the only one getting the urge to knee one of these rape-endorsing fuckskulls in the teeth?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ I blame myself

unless that point is I am a fucking neanderthal

There’s nothing to suggest Neanderthals were any more violent than cro magnons. In fact the evidence of people surviving for years after debilitating injuries would suggest they were a caring bunch.

I see your frustration but there’s understandable house rules on not raising that sort of issue. Let’s not cause any problems for David.

ryeash
ryeash
5 years ago

@Banananana dakry

Glad it could make someone feel better 🙂 Spiky edges are helpful when I can use them for good, but I wish I was better about that.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
5 years ago

Besides the horrible grossness of the rape apologia, I find it pretty ridiculous that these guys are so surprised that a woman who’s a student at the most prestigious university in the western US is articulate and writes well. Apparently they’re really committed to the theory that all women have nothing in their heads besides celebrity gossip, marrying a rich husband, cucking innocent white nationalists, rationalization hamsters, and of course, shoes. It’s easier for them to believe in a conspiracy theory than it is them for them to believe that a woman might be eloquent.

GiJoel
GiJoel
5 years ago

Well Brock has been banned for life from USA swimming. Not that it really makes up for what he did.

Moocow
5 years ago

So I just read her entire account of what happened. I won’t go into the details, what struck me the most was how personal the prosecution aggressively questioned her and Brock is just a despicable human being who intentionally lied about the events of that night in order to get out of blame.

@WWTH

And yet, at the same time, apparently literature and humanities is the domain of ‘women’ stuff and totally inferior to ‘man’ stuff like STEM.

It’s like “uh, what? communication and literature is actually cool and important? Um, just kidding! Males are naturally good at that too and this proves women are just children!”

@Snork Maiden

And speaking of damned if you do damned if you don’t, seconding what you wrote.

A while back I sarcastically suggested that misogynists would claim that unless the perpetrator literally jumped out of a bush, then it’s clearly not rape. I didn’t realize how close their actual argument would be to that absurd hyperbole.

Axecalibur
Axecalibur
5 years ago

I’m sick. Nothing serious, just allergies. I should be lying down. I was lying down. Now I’m not. Now I’m pacing around my living room. I’m walking way too fucking fast. I’m finding it hard to stay still. This is the first time something from this blog has brought me this close to crying. And I don’t cry. Not since I was little
I sometimes say that some people are bad people, but they don’t have to be bad forever. They’ll figure it out, quit fucking up, and eventually we can forgive (not forget) and move on. No. My fingers want to write things. I’m gritting my teeth. If my mom heard I’d raped someone…
I need a gif. Someone please find me a gif. I need to see a revolving image of what I’m feeling. I can’t fucking deal with image search right now. I’m not even mad at the dude. I’m not even mad at the forum guys. Fuck them, but I’m not mad about that. The judge, and the dad, and the whole goddamn world! She doesn’t get out of this in 6 months. Nothing makes this better, does it?

Fuck it, I’m not editing any of this

Snowberry
Snowberry
5 years ago

Dear rape apologists:

I will admit to never having been raped myself, but I’ve been traumatized in other ways. I’ve also had really unpleasant sex with a guy who didn’t care about me as anything more than a notch on his bedpost. Put the two together and I have a pretty good idea of the kind of awfulness that the victim is going through and will continue to go through for quite some time.

Meanwhile, I cannot imagine wanting to have sex with anyone who is too drunk to be very responsive, much less passed out. Or sober but clearly not wanting to participate. Not even if I were drunk myself, because there’s no way to lose control of urges that I don’t even have. And if it somehow happened anyway, I would be appropriately horrified at my own actions and do whatever I could to make amends. Even if that meant spending years in prison. So I don’t emphasize with a rapist’s mindset at all.

So I must apologize for having absolutely zero fucks to give about how poor lil’ Brocky-boy’s life is all ruined and such. Not because he’s a man. Or white. Or rich. Or an athlete. But because he committed a terrible crime against someone and believes he did nothing wrong. He is thus a proven danger to society. You know, the very heart of the matter which you are trying to gloss over by smearing irrelevant bullshit all over it.

So if the only empathy you can muster is for a proven danger to society… maybe you ought to take a good look in the mirror and question whether you yourself might also be a danger to society, even if only indirectly.

Disrespectfully yours,
Snowberry

runsinbackground
runsinbackground
5 years ago

@Snowberry Who cares about society and people who may be a danger to it? Enjoy the Decline, baby!

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

I’ve been trying to analyse why I’m so riled by this; I think it’s because of the ‘perfect storm’ of rape culture phenomena.

Turner – callous indifference and entitlement. Not seeing a woman as a person or even human; just an object and a means to an end.

The father – all of the above plus not even acknowledging the existence of a victim except to tacitly blame her. Complete lack of empathy. Bewilderingly skewed priorities. Seeing perpetrator as victim.

The judge – oh FFS, no one was asking you to throw away the key but at least sentence vaguely in accordance with the guidelines.

The MRA commentariat – these are the ones that really get my goat. It’s the sheet pro-activness with which they jump on this. They’re actually glad this happened. It’s the perfect opportunity to further bully the victim and spout their abuse. What pushes me to anger though is their cowardice. I despise them for that. They spew vileness behind a cloak of anonymity and safety in numbers and they have the audacity to criticise the victim. She’s shown courage and bravery that these wankers couldn’t match if they lived to be a thousand.

Skip
Skip
5 years ago

Men – Want to live a simple, successful, carefree life unburdened by women’s and the state’s forced wealth, power and life transfer from men to women? Don’t (1) get married, (2) give women any legal, social, psychological, physical, financial or spiritual power over your life and (3) enlist in war to have your body parts blown across the battlefield for women. Let the little female snowflakes fight off the foreign aggressors themselves. Don’t build anything for them. Don’t sacrifice on their behalf. Women love it when men sacrifice of their life, health and wealth for women. Just stop doing these things and women’s power declines precipitously.

It’s all so simple. Women use and manipulate men for transfer of power, wealth and control from men to women. All you need do to have a great life is to not participate in their game. All you need do is cut them off from their normal, every day pipelines of wealth and power transfer.

“A prince proposed to a princess. The princess refused. The prince lived happily ever after.” This is how it really works. Never give a woman any power over your life and you’ve solved 99% of your potential life problems. Be happy. Be free of women’s power and control. For every man that opts out, another man is freed from the slavery of women’s hatred and envy of men.

The best thing to happen to men is feminism.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
5 years ago

Bag of knives is one of my favorite rage gifs.

http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i342/buffyfan84/Gifs2011/Buffy/tumblr_lowilxqbRn1qihsweo1_500.gif

Not all anger is dramatic and loud. Some of us have more of a seething kind of rage!

Nequam
Nequam
5 years ago

@I Blame Myself: No, though I doubt I’d be that gentle. I tended more towards “20 minutes of action” with a suitable set of tools– and more than that would be tasteless and unproductive to mention here.

Look at a bunch of dachshunds in hot dog costumes instead, even if it’s ultimately for an ad for Heinz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNN9nL2vppM

I mean, c’mon, even if you think ketchup should never go on hot dogs, that’s adorable.

Carrie
Carrie
5 years ago

https://mic.com/articles/145898/in-response-to-brock-turner-the-porn-site-x-hamster-is-cracking-down-on-rape?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=miccheck

“In Response to Brock Turner, the Porn Site xHamster Is Cracking Down on Rape”

This seems oddly miraculous. It’s not going to change the world overnight, but damn, the creepsters who get off on this sort of wank material are being tacitly told that this is not really all right.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
5 years ago

Turner and his father may think that he can redeem himself by giving little speeches about how too much drinking and promiscuity can really harsh your college fun, but I’d rather see Carl-Fredrik Arndt and Peter Jonsson talk about how a decent human being doesn’t just bicycle past a rape in progress.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

I have had to use violence on a few occasions. One time in fact not a million miles away from the situation here. But I never felt any animosity towards the targets. It was just a practical thing; a task that needed to be done. No hard feelings sort of thing.

But I really do hate those commentators. I don’t go in for revenge fantasies and I wouldn’t enjoy hurting them or anything; but I do think that if they were removed from the equation it would be a job well done.

BritterSweet
5 years ago

Got nothing to say that would be safe for the comments policy.

Instead, some brain bleach for any who need it.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
5 years ago

I think what makes me rage so much is that the word “promiscuity” keeps getting brought up by team Turner. Rape is not promiscuity. Promiscuity implies someone who has consensual sex with many partners. That has fuck all to do with rape. It’s also victim blaming. Some women participate in “hook up culture” therefore all women can expect to be raped. Because how on earth is a drunk man supposed to tell the difference between yes and the absence of a yes if some women say yes!?

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18k5j277jzqwlgif/original.gif

Anne Lewis, Jib Creatr
Anne Lewis, Jib Creatr
5 years ago
Bina
5 years ago

Testing…testing…Hey Comment Eating Mammoth, munge this…

Bina
5 years ago

Okay. Now that I’ve tamed the Comment Mammoth, here’s what I’ve been trying to say for the last hour or so…(holds breath):

“a society full of psychotic princesses and their despicable white-knight enablers which treats its young men as worthless roadkill.”

Punishing a GUILTY rapist is the same as running over an innocent squirrel? I can’t already.

He’s mad at her in part because her letter is too well-written for his taste, complaining that the “emotionally dishonest” document “is a self-consciously literary text written in the hysterical tones of contemporary serious female fiction.” In another comment, he denounces her letter as “literary attention whoring from the first word to the last.”

How the hell would he even know? He probably reads nothing written by women, much less literary fiction written by ANYONE.

The idea that this is a “light sentence” is a tragically misplaced one. In reality, the guy’s life is ruined forever. He will be registered as a sex offender for the remainder of his life. He is an eternal pariah and outcast. All because this slut decided that a few moments of drunkenness were enough to destroy a man’s life for good.

Dafuq, asshole? He dragged her out behind a dumpster into some pine needles, yoinked her clothes askew (and some of them, altogether off), and was humping away on her passed-out form for 20 fucking minutes before a couple of Swedes biking by noticed that something was seriously amiss, and SHE’s “[the] slut [who] decided that a few moments of drunkenness were enough to destroy a man’s life for good”? HE’s the one who did all the acting and all the deciding. She wasn’t even fucking CONSCIOUS, you idiotic fucking BASTARD.

And this is altogether rich coming from a participant in a forum where grown-ass men not unlike Brock Fucking Turner routinely brag about how they set female victims drunk (and/or roofied them) and then took advantage of their inert bodies, don’t you think?

This slut went to the party because she wanted to get drunk and cheat on her boyfriend. She obviously wanted this athlete guy to f**k her as she admits in this key passage from the “victim letter” which you need to parse correctly through its lawyerly wording.

Funny thing. I’ve read her letter from end to end, numerous times, and NOWHERE IN IT does she say that she “wanted to get drunk and cheat on her boyfriend”. OR that she “obviously wanted this athlete guy to fuck her”. She makes it abundantly clear throughout that she wanted NOTHING from him. Your “parsing” fucking SUCKS, dude.

(Sorry for all the shouting, but damn this makes me want to vomit. I’m yelling so I don’t puke on my keyboard, because it lights up and those suckers are bloody expensive.)

In other words she’s admitting she was by no means unconscious when he started “fingering” her which she herself said she “liked”. This kid is now supposed to be a “rapist” because in his own drunkenness he could not figure out the exact moment when the equally drunk girl passed out? Really?

OFFS, this is not fucking rocket science, dude. I’ve refused to have sex with drunk guys when I was considerably more sober, because I figured he might want to remember me and what we did together. And he might want to remember it as something we did together, not something I did to his passed-out carcass while his blanked-out brain was roaming free in space. If you don’t get a clear, conscious “yes”, you don’t proceed. Why is this so damn hard for you to comprehend?

Please try to think about this in actual human terms and understand what happened here. The idea that a young kid’s life should be ruined forever because of this incident is disgraceful.

For once, an asshole said something with which I agree. So, asshole — why not extend your actual human terms of understanding to the VICTIM, who is also very young, and whose life is already ruined forever, which is really, REALLY fucking disgraceful?

It’s needed as payback for TRUMP — pretty much the fact that he still dares to exist.

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK EVEN IS THIS IRRELEVANT SHIT???

Oh yeah, I know. It’s what assholes get when they start fingering themselves, because they don’t have any unwilling feeeemales on hand to victimize thusly.

He obviously typed this one-handed.

There is serious evil afoot here. But it’s not in the actions of one drunk confused kid — the evil is in our society and the hysterical extremes it has reached in pandering to female lies.

“Evil afoot”, says the anal sphincter? Oh yeah, there’s evil afoot, all right. And here is what it REALLY looks like:

http://www.sabinabecker.com/media/YWCA-sex-assault-infographic.jpg

But please, keep screeching about how all women lie, dickface. My fellow conspirators and I are all waiting in the bushes with rape kits for the day we can nab a sample of your precious bodily fluids.

QHS
QHS
5 years ago

@Anne Lewis,
I must confess that I derive some satisfaction from the way Alex Murphy deals with rapists.

Anne Lewis, Jib Creatr
Anne Lewis, Jib Creatr
5 years ago

@QHS

HELL. YES. Probably my favorite moment in the movie. Hopefully this gif doesn’t violate guidelines.

comment image

Axecalibur
Axecalibur
5 years ago

@Y’all
I needed a nap and those gifs. Check and check! Thank you, lovelies 🙂

@WWTH
Excellent choice. That reminds me. Here’s a sword that’s 3 swords, just cos
comment image

@Carrie
I’m not sure I like the decision for the reasons stated in the article (porn doesn’t cause rape, CNC is a thing, etc.), but fuck am I glad somebody’s paying attention. We’re still waiting on them to quit using a particular trans slur (whilst simultaneously protesting the bathroom bills. Get your shit together), but it’s something…

@Bina
That image floored me. Why is there so much indigo? That is the single most rape cultury pic I’ve ever seen. In fucking Canada!?
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/5a/5ae2850b2bb590ae73fd70245a4b7bd59181d88771e8882b9c8c75211710a733.jpg

(((Chiomara)))
(((Chiomara)))
5 years ago

I just… yeah. I will vomit.

(((Chiomara)))
(((Chiomara)))
5 years ago

I post poned this article and this issue for the entire day/week. I decided to face it. Guess I shouldnt.

In the next paragraph, I read something that I will never forgive; I read that according to him, I liked it. I liked it. Again, I do not have words for these feelings.

Oh my god. I am so sorry. Girl. I am so truly. Sorry.

“Rape” victims are few and far between, and real rapes, violent drag into the bushes rapes, are vanishingly rare on college campuses, and not committed by young white male college students.

Real rape.
Real rape.
Real. Rape.
Real. Rape.

At times like this I just… I don’t know if I want to kill them… or if I want to kill myself.

I didnt want to sleep tonight, anyways.

Gotta hug my niece. Poor thing. What a horrible world is she entering.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
5 years ago

Somehow, for women, the default consent flag always seems to be “yes”, unless she explicitly resets it. Nonconsent requires such a rigorous standard of proof, while consent requires very little…”She didn’t struggle.” “She didn’t fight back.” “She invited me into her room.” “She was drunk, so it’s possible she consented and just doesn’t remember.” Did she like it? Well, that’s for the man to define.

Unless the woman is stone cold sober and screaming “No!”, then the starting point is always “yes”. If there’s the tiniest bit of doubt, the assumption is always, always, always, that men have the green light. That the gates are open for all time, by virtue of her having had sex before, or being at a party, or drinking, or married, or walking down the street, or flirting, or saying or doing or wearing XYZ, or any one of a million little things, real or imagined.

How about the default is fucking no, until a woman explicitly says yes? Then attorneys for rich predatory assholes won’t get to argue, with a straight face, that a woman might possibly have wanted to be dragged behind a dumpster, stuffed with pine needles, assaulted, and traumatized, we just really don’t know, it’s such a murky area when alcohol is involved. As if there might be some reasonable doubt. As if it’s a normal thing for women to welcome being violated while unconscious.

And if the default is no instead of yes, then you don’t get rapists looking to exploit that loophole by getting the woman to do any tiny thing that might signal an interest and let them off the hook for their behavior. And then you wouldn’t have so many confused MRAs whining about false rape accusations and wondering if they should be videotaping and notarizing everything.

Society and the law put the burden of saying “no” on the woman, and then they treat the fact that she never explicitly said “yes” or “no” as de facto consent. Even if saying no might get her hurt or killed. Even if she was too incapacitated to say no. Even if the acts were so horrific that no one in their right mind would ever consent to them.

It’s so deeply fucked up.

7x50
7x50
5 years ago

It’s quite obvious that the rape was opportunistic, and the stats bear out a lot of rape is opportunistic. The question is what turns a society from general USA where rape isn’t everywhere, to USA college campus where rape is more prevalent, to India where rape is exceedingly prevalent.

It has to be something in the mindset or the attitudes of the society. And this goes back to an over-arching question, what made Brock Turner think that having sex with a woman who was so drunk she was not responding to him was okay? From recollection his defence was “culture”. And while men and women are not islands, we can chose to engage or disengage from culture. And the President had already started a program to respond to campus sexual assault because it was an enormous problem, and now Stamford are ‘educating’ new students to the cost of $2.7m per year that doing something to someone else that didn’t want it is not okay.

Didn’t we learn this at age 3 when our ‘best friend’ cried because took their toy in the sandpit that other people have feelings too and that you shouldn’t do other things to them that they wouldn’t want done to you? What is causing this huge disparity between (i’m sorry to say this, David) primarily men and common sense?

Hey that's my bike
Hey that's my bike
5 years ago

Longtime reader, haven’t commented in years. Trigger warning: rape

I just realized recently that I have been raped. 3 times. I won’t go into gory details, but my high school boyfriend wouldn’t stop when I asked him to. I remember the tears streaming down my face and onto his hand. He did not stop.

A very good friend of mine told me that after I got stoned at a concert, he touched me and fingered me while I was sleeping.

While in my early 20s, after refusing sex, my boyfriend chased me around the apartment jerking off, eventually cornering me and cumming on my feet and the carpet.

All these years, I thought it would’ve been melodramatic to call it rape. But it has affected me in so many ways. until now I thought it was all my fault.

My wonderful husband, rightly so, hates having sex with me while I’m drunk. I used to get offended. Now I know – he sees me as a human.

Emily Doe is Jesus Christ as far as I’m concerned. Her eloquent unflinching account made so many people, including me, finally get it. She was the sacrificial lamb. My god, she is brave.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ chiomara

or if I want to kill myself

Hey if you ever find yourself going to dark places like that please please please talk to someone, whether that be someone at home or the people here.

Yes there are some horrible things going on in the world but there is hope. There are people trying to change things. It can seem like an uphill struggle at times but there is some progress. This site highlights some of the worst aspects of humanity and the scumbags who contribute to that; so it’s easy to think they’re completely representative. But whilst I don’t want to downplay or dismiss that creatures like that exist they’re not universal. Try to remember the swathes of support for the victim, of the two guys who intervened, or the general repulsion this event has attracted.

Despite the horrors, there are lots of good things in the world; and that includes you.

Fabe
Fabe
5 years ago

@Skip (if he still lurking about)

that was cute but we all seen far better attempts at trolling.

(((Chiomara)))
(((Chiomara)))
5 years ago

I just wrote a comment longer than the article itself comparing my situation with hers, but… too strong and unnecessary.
I thought this wouldnt happen in the… Us? Canada? I suppose that at least he was persecuted. At least he took 6 months.
It’s funny, though, aint it, how they always are so innocent… so innocent and unknowing of the “supposed”(haha) crime… yet… they run like the wind when a third party appears.
Those fucks know what they did, and they KNEW what they are doing when they were doing it. And they continued not because they didn’t know it was rape, but because they DID KNOW it was rape. But thing is, they KNOW nobody will believe us. They are not afraid of us. And they are right not to.

I don’t know how this girl was strong enough to go on with her fight until the end and beyond. Or to write that letter. She is so awesome.

I don’t know what to say. I know there are other survivors here and they don’t keep being as dramatic as me. But I blocked a few parts of what happened and sometimes when I read certain things, I remember. It’s like a pandora box that never gets empty. Aside from that… a story like this makes me think that we will never be safe and justice will never be made. Nor here, nor in the first world. And it’s literally suffocating. All I want is this hell to stop.

And did you see the “princess” thing? They love saying “princess”.

I am sorry about the slightly suicidal part of my last comment. It was exaggerated, unnecessary, and poorly thought through.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo
5 years ago

I think Skip is a shit out a copypaste and run troll because that screed has no connection whatsoever to the post or any of the conversation in this thread.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
5 years ago

@ wwth

Not even a very entertaining C/P&R troll, was he?

OoglyBoggles
OoglyBoggles
5 years ago

I want to hurt them, so badly in many ways, both the father, the rapist and the lizard of oz. I want to do so many things to them that I can’t say on this board. Painful things until they are unrecognizable.

This is rape culture manifest. This is one of the main reasons why people still need feminism in the first world. Because THIS, is beyond atrocious. This, is s horrid travesty upon humanity where select few are given special rights and cannot be touched wven for the most horrid of crimes.

Axecalibur
Axecalibur
5 years ago

OK, so I’ve been getting this for months now. Just never mentioned it. Are other people seeing the moderation trolls in their emails before they show up in the comments? I thought I had like a hacked copy of the code or summat, letting me see the future. It’s kinda cool, but Skip has made me question whether I want it anymore. More power than is meant for a mortal (hu)man, and whatnot

Mortarius
Mortarius
5 years ago

@Buttercup Q. Skullpants: In jurisdictions that aren’t as terrible like my home of Australia (Sydney) the law puts the burden on the accused to establish consent. The prosecution must establish beyond reasonable doubt that the events in question occurred but in parity with ordinary cases of violent assault the defense carries the burden of establishing consent because consent is a defense to the charge. The victim is not required to testify.

Push for such changes wherever you live.

There is a great justice in reading transcripts in cases where rapists are put under the cross and seeing them squirm trying to argue consent to an experienced prosecutor.

Other good ideas that should be adopted everywhere:

“A person who has sexual intercourse with another person without the consent of the other person knows that the other person does not consent to the sexual intercourse if:
(a) the person knows that the other person does not consent to the sexual intercourse, or
(b) the person is reckless as to whether the other person consents to the sexual intercourse, or
(c) the person has no reasonable grounds for believing that the other person consents to the sexual intercourse.”

The law here says that knowing there is a lack of consent is a low bar, you need a good reason to think you had consent, no playing dumb, being “mistaken” (reckless) is no excuse either.

“For the purpose of making any such finding, the trier of fact must have regard to all the circumstances of the case:
(d) including any steps taken by the person to ascertain whether the other person consents to the sexual intercourse, but
(e) not including any self-induced intoxication of the person.”

That’s right, if you don’t take steps to establish consent then you fail to establish it at all, regardless of how drunk either of you are.

And the above isn’t even covering the obvious sections on “negation of consent where it is established”:
1. Age/mental incapacity
2. Lack of opportunity to establish consent (such as but not limited to being unconscious or asleep)
3. Threats of force or use of terror against the victim or any other person.
4. If the victim is in any way unlawfully detained

If the victim was:
1. Mistaken as to the identity of the accused
2. Mistaken in thinking they were married to the accused
3. Under the mistaken belief that the sex act is necessary for health or hygiene purposes.
4. Under any mistaken belief about the nature of the act induced by fraudulent means

Then they do not consent.

“(6) The grounds on which it may be established that a person does not consent to sexual intercourse include:
(a) if the person has sexual intercourse while substantially intoxicated by alcohol or any drug, or
(b) if the person has sexual intercourse because of intimidatory or coercive conduct, or other threat, that does not involve a threat of force, or
(c) if the person has sexual intercourse because of the abuse of a position of authority or trust.”

These are some good god damn provisions.

And lastly a few of my favourite highlights:

(7) A person who does not offer actual physical resistance to sexual intercourse is not, by reason only of that fact, to be regarded as consenting to the sexual intercourse.

(8) This section does not limit the grounds on which it may be established that a person does not consent to sexual intercourse.

Can’t forget our evidence act with good stuff like:

“(2) Evidence relating to the sexual reputation of the complainant is inadmissible.

(3) Evidence that discloses or implies:
(a) that the complainant has or may have had sexual experience or a lack of sexual experience, or
(b) has or may have taken part or not taken part in any sexual activity,

is inadmissible.”
It is further illegal to ask a victim any of these questions in cross.

“(1) If, on the trial of a person for a prescribed sexual offence, evidence is given or a question is asked of a witness that tends to suggest:
(a) an absence of complaint in respect of the commission of the alleged offence by the person on whom the offence is alleged to have been committed, or
(b) delay by that person in making any such complaint.

(2) In circumstances to which this section applies, the Judge:
(a) must warn the jury that absence of complaint or delay in complaining does not necessarily indicate that the allegation that the offence was committed is false, and
(b) must inform the jury that there may be good reasons why a victim of a sexual assault may hesitate in making, or may refrain from making, a complaint about the assault”

“(1) A judge must not warn a jury, or make any suggestion to a jury, that complainants as a class are unreliable witnesses.”

There’s also a nice provision that rules that under no circumstances (even if they represent themselves) can the accused talk to or cross examine their victim in court.

Victims can also be allowed provision to testify from far away or in such a fashion that they do not have to see the accused if they do not want to. They are also specially allowed any person(s) to be with them as support when they do. Furthermore under no circumstances does the victim have to testify again (retrial or whatever) if they don’t want to. The judge instructs the jury that all this is normal for victims in cases.

I’ve gone on a bit of a huge law essay here.
But my point is that there’s a lot that can be changed to improve the law on this front. Push for any of the above in your home jurisdictions.

Even if legal reform can only do so much the debates around introducing such provisions can be a key element in discussing and combating rape culture in the public eye.

Paradoxical Intention - Resident Cheeseburger Slut

I’m not in the mood for this inane copypasta bullshit. Not in this thread. Any other thread but this one. I am not in the mood to be dealing with Skip’s nonsense about how women are all awful and shit.

So, I’ll be brief: If you don’t want to get married Skip, good for fucking you. Really. It’s great. I fully support men who hate women (By thinking all women are out to get their money and “power”) not getting married to them or having anything to do with them. Good job. Please stay as far away from women as humanly possible, kthx. We here at WHTM absolutely support you in your endeavor to Go Your Own Fucking Way Away From Women and Fuck Off Already.

I’m not in the mood to be dealing with your unoriginal bullshit. The adults are talking, you tone-deaf, moldy, garbage sandwich.

In other news: I vented a bit. (David feel free to delete or remove this if it violates the rules.) It’s still a bit wonky, so I’ll fix it later, but I’m tired and angry and I just got dinner so I’m going to eat.

http://i1307.photobucket.com/albums/s598/Paradoxys3DS/small_zps63ppezqi.png

Mortarius
Mortarius
5 years ago

This whole thing makes me think of how right the Onion gets it every time:
http://www.theonion.com/article/wealthy-teen-nearly-experiences-consequence-2551

This response from Rooshites as well shows that their “real rape” bullshit where the “jump out of the bushes attack” is what they’re really concerned about is a total lie. This shows they’ll defend any rapist, no matter how cut and dry the evidence is.

They think rape is ok.