And then there were two. Now that the Democrats have a Presumptive Nominee of their own, I’m thinking we could use an open thread to talk about Hillary’s big win, Bernie’s future, and how to derail the Trump Train (figuratively speaking).
Also, Little Green Footballs has a nice little Trump poster generator. Check it out.
Here are a couple of mine, all of them making use of Trump’s actual words. Post your own! Let’s have a little meme contest or something!
^This
If the strategy to move the window of discourse in your direction hasn’t worked the other 364 days of the year, why the hell would anyone think they could turn it all around on day 365.
For those relieved that it’s likely to be Clinton (assuming no indictment between now and the convention) because you think she’ll do better in the general election, from what I’ve seen she’s neck and neck with Drumf, while Sanders is/was ahead. Admittedly, not being American I’ve not sought out every poll on this, but it seems that Sanders’ appeal with independents is much, much higher whereas they barely trust Clinton more than Drumf.
@Keated Right now, Trump isn’t attacking Sanders. In fact, the right wing is more than happy to let Sanders’ supporters repeat right-wing attacks on Clinton.
For what I have read, likability polls this early are not very predictive. Given Clinton’s high positives before the primary campaign, it’s hard to know if this is a trough or a trend. Leading back to the unreliability of them.
I do know Clinton has weathered so many puffed up scandals and so much opposition research that surprises are unlikely. Up until now, Sanders has not had the same level of scrutiny. I’m uncertain as to how he would hold up.
The big impediment to moving forward in a more progressive way – including on foreign policy – is apathy. Contrary to popular belief, the US is not super right wing. If you poll people on individual issues, they usually agree with the more left position with some exceptions. The problem is that people don’t follow politics, they don’t care, they don’t want to talk about it. People adamantly refuse to engage and it’s very frustrating.
For the people who think we need to burn it all down and have a revolution, how do you propose this when it’s like pulling teeth to get people to do more than vote every four years? What good is it to lecture people here about how policy effects people far away when they barely notice domestic policy?Please tell me how I’m supposed to get people to care? I can guarantee you, whatever suggestion anyone has, I’ve tried it.
In the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, Hans Blix, chief UN weapons inspector, and Scott Ritter, UN weapons inspector, were both saying that Iraq didn’t have weapons of mass destruction. Reuters News Service also held back from the rush to war, although I can’t recall the details. They were probably giving more space to Blix and Ritter than the other news services.
Anyway, that was enough to convince me that we should hold back and find out more. After all, if Iraq did have WMDs, attacking those WMDs probably wouldn’t be a good idea.
After a while it became clear to me that Bush had an agenda: He wasn’t listening to the opposition; he wanted to attack. And he did so, on the first day of spring 2003. I’m convinced that his message was, I’m in charge of the seasons & the sun & the moon. Shock. Awe.
Nowadays I listen to and watch Democracy Now! They always give me the real news.
http://www.democracynow.org/
I just went to their website, where they were live streaming the news, and they were discussing the Stanford rape case. They are always on point!
@ WWTH
It’s the same here. We were chatting about this in that recent thread. They key problem seems to be one of communication.
There’s probably a trend for progressive people to be more involved, and have a keen interest, in politics generally (that’s why they’re the first to recognise the problems that don’t just affect themselves). They’re therefore more familiar with the specialised language of politics. That doesn’t translate very well though for the average voter. There’s also a tendency for progressives to set up certain shibboleths; so someone may agree about a particular issue but be alienated for not using the accepted terminology.
Where people are ignorant on an issue or have questions there’s again a tendency to just dismiss them as evil and/or stupid, rather than engage with them.
Maybe it’s because the right has more of a connection with business but they do seem intuitively understand ‘marketing’ better. It’s easy to dismiss their campaigning as veneer and catchphrases, rather than substance, but it does seem to work.
We haven’t had a catchy ‘progressive’ slogan since “Ask not what your country can do for you…”
Oh fer.
Did you know that when you blindly swallow and repeat right-wing stories, you’re doing what Trump wants you to do?
Several politicians from both parties did/are still doing the exact same thing, the “Classified” emails were classified long after the fact and the “Laws” were put into effect long after the fact. This talking point isn’t just hypocritical, it requires a friggin’ time machine.
It’s been noted by many that US presidential candidates are often very old. Sanders is 74, Trump will turn 70 in a few days, and Clinton is 68. Romney was 65 in 2012, and McCain was 71-72 in 2008. Some Swedish journalists have noted how incredibly strange it would be to have a 74 year old man become the Swedish Prime Minister. I don’t really have any strong opinion either way as to whether I’d prefer a younger or an older candidate, since there are definitely pros and cons of both. I just find the cultural difference interesting.
In the US at the moment, 5 Presidents are still alive, including the incumbent:
Barack Obama, 2009- (currently 54 years old)
George W. Bush, 2001-2009 (69)
Bill Clinton, 1993-2001 (69)
George H. W. Bush, 1989-1993 (91)
Jimmy Carter, 1977-1981 (91)
As I was thinking about this, I realized that these stats for Swedish Prime Ministers are actually pretty amazing. Look at this:
Stefan Löfvén, 2014- (58)
Fredrik Reinfeldt, 2006-2014 (50)
Göran Persson, 1996-2006 (67)
Ingvar Carlsson, 1986-1991, 1994-1996 (81)
Carl Bildt, 1991-1994 (66)
Thorbjörn Fälldin, 1976-1978, 1979-82 (90)
Ola Ullsten, 1978-1979 (84)
This actually means that the most recent Prime Minister who is no longer alive – other than Olof Palme who was of course assassinated in 1986, and could conceivably still be alive today if he hadn’t been killed (he would be 89) – is Tage Erlander, who held the office between 1946-1969. His time as Prime Minister started before my dad was even born, and my dad retired a few years ago.
@ kat
I’m probably teaching you to suck eggs if I mention the paper by the Project For a New American Century.
One little known fact about the war though is that on the eve of the attack an overture was made to the Iraqis that if they allowed private inspections of the WMD facilities (thus allaying Allied fears but allowing Saddam to maintain his ambiguous position for his own purposes), cooperated with the work against AQ and supported Allied affords against Iran, they would call off the invasion. Tariq Ali initially accepted the deal but was over-ruled by Saddam (Ali was offered asylum for even trying).
Not suggesting that Bush (and especially some of his cabinet) were disappointed with the refusal, but it’s an interesting footnote.
@ IP
Re: age
Remember this?
https://youtu.be/LoPu1UIBkBc
BritterSweet wrote:
If Donald Trump were to get elected, and exit polls showed it was due to Sanders supporters sitting it out or voting for Trump, that would be a temper tantrum that the whole world would hear.
I know I’m mostly preaching to the crowd here, but for all those Sanders supporters who are either equating Clinton with Trump, flying the #NeverHillary #NeverTrump flags, or saying they will vote for Trump, I can guarantee you this:
If by some awful miracle, Donald Trump gets elected, in an election that he should instead have lost in a landslide, that will be the death of Sanders’ platform.
Ever since Clinton said that she thought he needed to do his homework when asked whether Sanders was qualified for the office of President, he has been on tilt, going on at length and playing to his supporters about why he thinks she is disqualified from being President — something far stronger than what she said about him.
If a man who is whipping up racist fervor; disparaging minorities at every turn; pausing for effect before he, in a slow and deliberate tone, introduces the name “Gonzalo Curiel” — if this man, running an explicitly White Nationalist campaign, is elected President over a highly qualified, liberal woman, who has broad support among those minorities he has targeted precisely because she has come to embrace issues they care about (and/or always has), because the supporters of her primary opponent bought into all of the right-wing disinformation spread about her over the last two decades:
Democratic socialism will be dead as a movement, and all of the work you have put into promoting the Sanders platform will be for naught. Those minorities whose support are needed to build any political movement on the left will not forget that you left them to the wolves; your tantrum will not go unnoticed.
Do as you will.
*choir, not crowd
Ddog’s right. Has any candidate said anything about stopping drone strikes?
@ littleknown
Nice poker reference; and you got me thinking. Is his refusal to concede driven by the same sort of sunk cost fallacy do you think? Might he genuinely believe that having gone this far he may as well stay in and wait for a miracle?
My initial thoughts were that he was either negotiating in the background for a cabinet position before throwing in the towel; or he was doing a Samson thing and taking down the Democrat’s chances with him. But might it me he actually does think he’s in with a chance?
(Totally agree with your general point btw)
@Josh
A quick search gives me no indication that Sanders would do away with drones. He does say that they shouldn’t kill civilians. I doubt that Clinton or Trump would do away with drones.
You & Ddog make good points.
@Kat
I don’t mean to rain on your parade, but watch yourself. ‘I found a news source that’s perfect’ often ends in disappointment. I used to be huge into liberal online news shows. Used to…
@Josh
No. Nobody has said anything. Nobody will say anything. Even if they did, it’d be meaningless. Drone technology is here to stay. Forever. Weapons on those drones is here to stay. Forever. Can we please stop talking about ending drone strikes? Please? They couldn’t stop the automobile and this too will continue
But. We put up road signs. We built sidewalks. We invented traffic lights. We instituted speed limits. We mandate seatbelts, and age limits, and alcohol limits, and license tests, and emission standards. And I know, apples and oranges, but you hopefully get the point. How about asking our candidates how they’ll regulate the strikes? Make em more precise and more accountable? I posit that’s a better question
Also, are you new here? Not sure I’ve seen you around before… If so, hiya, I’m Axe! 🙂
Seconding littleknown.
Haven’t we been through this before? With progressives taking their ball and threatening to stay home, leaving moderates to fend for themselves against the right wing? Does anyone think that may have been the whole REASON the democratic party has had to shift to the center in order to stay competitive?
If what you’re concerned about is moving the overton window left and having progressive ideas heard and taken seriously then this is the exact wrong way of going about it.
@Axecalibur
Democracy Now! has no corporate sponsors. They’re funded by donations. They’re not liberal.They bring me painful news that I don’t want to hear five days a week. (But if they can handle it, then so can I.) I don’t see how they’re going to let me down.
Sanders is currently at the White House talking to President Obama.
The press are setting up but there’s no official word on whether he will actually say anything after the meeting.
@Kat
That bit actually made my heart hurt a little
I know very nearly nothing about DN. I’m sure they’re great, and my policy has always been:
If you find something (legal and ethical, obvs) that you like, don’t let anyone tell you otherwise
It’s just… There’s lots of stuff, political and not, that I can’t enjoy anymore for 1 or another reason. The more sure of the thing I was, the more it pained me to put it away. It is a real pain, its deep and dull, and I tend to put off that pain by ignoring the problem way too long. I do this all the time, and it ain’t fun. None of what I said was about DN, specifically. Just in general, watch out for yourself 🙂
Edit: fuckin blockquotes! I hate this keyboard
@Imaginary Petal:
Regarding ages of leaders, for Canada:
Justin Trudeau was 43 when he took office last year.
Stephen Harper was 46 when he took office in 2006.
Paul Martin was 65 in 2003.
Jean Chrétien was 59 in 1993.
Kim Campbell was 46 in 1993.
Brian Mulroney was 45 in 1984.
John Turner was 55 in 1984.
Joe Clark was 39 in 1979 (in fact he took office the day before his 40th birthday).
All eight of those ex-Prime Ministers are still alive.
Pierre Trudeau was 48 when first elected in 1968.
Lester B. Pearson was 65 in 1963, and the last PM born in the 19th century.
The oldest PM at the time of election I can find was Sir Charles Tupper, who was 74 when elected in 1896, and who served the shortest term as PM in Canadian history of only 69 days. Only 6 PMs out of 23 have been over 60 that I can count, and half of those were PM for a short time in the late 1800s.
Put in a list like that, yes, American presidents do start looking unusually old by world leader standards…
Scildfreja – Thank you so much for the bonus nope llama, I love it! I shall love him and squeeze him and hug him and call him George! It perfectly sums up the way I feel every time I see the Odious Orange Onion on the TV machine.
And props to Hippodameia for my new name for him, too!
This guy may look like he’s a Donald Trump cosplayer, but he actually fell into a vat of curry powder.
(Still trying to figure out how someone who can fly can fall into anything but hey ho)
http://i.amz.mshcdn.com/T0ozsbIIs7o2V_BZvdGeWEFrock=/950×534/https%3A%2F%2Fblueprint-api-production.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fuploads%2Fcard%2Fimage%2F111319%2Fd7873630e8da44e8a3793c2748bd1222.jpg
@Axecalibur
I know what you mean. Nothing’s perfect and we learn that again every day!
@Alan
I’d forgotten that offer to Iraq.
And I think you mean Tariq Aziz. (I have to admit, I was pretty surprised at first.):)
@ kat
Oops. Ironically Tariq Ali probably knows more about the gulf war than Tariq Aziz does!