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Why pickup artists see Donald Trump as the ultimate alpha male

Donald Trump: Red Pill idol
Donald Trump: Red Pill idol

So Amanda Marcotte has a nice piece in Salon today on the adoration the world’s most repellant pickup artists feel towards Donald Trump:

Pickup artists like Daryush Valizadeh, who goes by the name “Roosh” … and James C. Weidmann, who goes by the ridiculous name Heartiste, absolutely adore Trump. In him, they see a kindred spirit, a man who believes women exist to be submissive and flattering and provide sex and have no value outside of that.

I shared some thoughts on the subject with her via email:

“Trump is, in many ways, their ideal alpha male, an arrogant, deliberately obnoxious asshole who treats women like shit but has a former model more than twenty years his junior as a wife,” Futrelle told me over email. “It doesn’t hurt that she’s Eastern European; PUAs like Roosh Valizadeh contend that American women are basically spoiled by too much feminism, and see Eastern European women, by contrast, as relatively unspoiled.”

Marcotte takes a look at some of the gushing tributes to Trump that Heartiste and Matt Forney have spilled on the internet, then peeks into the Red Pull subreddit, which, she writes,

is teeming with discussion threads positing that Trump is a role model and that the disrespect and abuse he dishes out to women is behavior to imitate.

 “Donald Trump teaches us something very important. Never bow down when put on the spot in front of a women,” one poster’s headline declares. In it, the poster explains that the way Trump treated Megyn Kelly, i.e., being a dick to her, was how men generally should, uh, handle women.

“This is a vital lesson to all men. Never ever let the hottest girl in the room manipulate you and break your frame. Never give in,” the poster writes. (“Your frame” is pickup artist lingo for trying to project an aura of overconfidence and stubbornness, or mostly just about being a bully.) “Even if you make a mistake, NEVER apologize to a girl.” 

Kelly is 45, a bit old to be “a girl.” Come to think of it, isn’t she way too old to be the “hottest girl in the room,” at least according to Red Pill dogma, which posits that women all “hit the wall” by age 30, if not earlier, and are shortly afterwards transformed into ancient crones fit only for cohabiting with cats?

And, wait a minute, isn’t Melania Trump 46? Why hasn’t alpha dog Trump traded her in for some 19-year-old Ukrainian hottie?

Could it be that the “the wall” isn’t really a thing. not even to the Red Pillers who talk about it all the time? Could “the wall” be little more than a revenge fantasy of Red Pillers who desperately want to believe that the young women who turn them down will someday face their comeuppance by suddenly contracting a case of the uglies?

Marcotte finds herself wondering something rather similar, suggesting at the end of her piece that perhaps

“pickup artistry” is not really about improving your game with the ladies, so much as it’s about giving men permission to belittle and bully women under the guise of becoming “alpha.”

That such men would love Trump, then, is no surprise. Trump is loud, orange, stupid, and ridiculous, but he is a bully, and to the pickup artist community, that’s what it takes to be a man.

Yep.

 

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Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
8 years ago

@ chiomara

Maybe I need to be stronger and more assertive

I’m not sure you need to be anything; more a matter of not beating yourself up about how you think your should be dealing with things. The only right way of coping with this is the one that works for you.

As for the attraction thing. We can’t help who we’re attracted to and we shouldn’t feel guilty if we’re not attracted to a particular person or even class of persons. Otherwise it’s just that ‘friendzone’ argument “I did X therefore you’re obligated to fancy me”, as if you can just switch that sort of thing on and off at will.

Axecalibur
Axecalibur
8 years ago

@Chio

I hate this word especially because it implies I am privileged and think I deserve to be treated with extreme honors when I actually don’t, I am less that what I think I am and am about to be put in my righteous place. In the context it was originally used it was extremely humiliating, and when I am called that my heart just tightens as I remember what my “place” is. It’s pretty much the worst word one can call me, it’s directly linked to a very especific scene. And he should know that

Jayzus Croist
One of these days you’ll be… just really happy. Reading that comment will be the best thing the Internet’s ever produced
Nyan-Gata Brasileira made me smile (hope I didn’t butcher the translation)
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/947/757/766.gif

@Kylo
Ignoring Trump’s personal shittery, he’d also be a terrible President. Especially for women and minority groups. If your friend supports Trump, either A) he doesn’t much care for the wellbeing of those groups, B) he’s somehow unaware of how a Trump administration would suck for the 68% of the country that ain’t straight white dudes (and even most of them), or C) he knows and cares, but is doing it anyway, cos he’s super duper edgy or some shit. You’ve talked to him about this, so A) or C)
It isn’t “going too far” to get away from someone like that, especially if it’s something they can’t stop rubbing in your face. And you needn’t be taking lessons about moderating your views from a proto fascist MRA. Someone should be moderating, but it ain’t you. Just some folksy wisdom I’ve picked up in my years on the intertubes: the asshole is never correct. If you really are insufferable (doubt it) someone else, someone decent, will let you know 😛

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
8 years ago

@Chiomara

Many hugs. I can’t tell you what to do, but I can say if it were me I’d be out of there immediately.

Kat
Kat
8 years ago

@makroth
That kid in the panda suit . . . had to laugh!

Chiomara
Chiomara
8 years ago

@Axecalibur

Jayzus Croist
One of these days you’ll be… just really happy. Reading that comment will be the best thing the Internet’s ever produced
Nyan-Gata Brasileira made me smile (hope I didn’t butcher the translation)

The translation is just right, but I don’t understand the rest. Why will reading my comment be the best the internet ever produced?

@Makroth
WHO THE BABY PANDA? I LOVE BABY PANDA. I WILL TAKE 5 BABY PANDA AND 3 STRIPEY “I LIKE TO MOVE IT MOVE IT”S, SIR, THANKS.

WAIT, ONE MUSTACHIO MONKEY TOO, PLS!!!

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
8 years ago

@Chiomara

Axecalibur meant that in the future you will be really happy, and then you will post a comment about how happy you are, and that comment will be really nice to read.

Chiomara
Chiomara
8 years ago

@IP
Aaaaaaaaaah. Thanks. I was so extremely confused.
Thanks, Axecalibur. I wish you all happiness too <3

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
8 years ago

Adding to the pile of hugs for Chiomara. I hope you get the space and time you need so you can make (and follow through on) the decision that’s best for you.

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
8 years ago

It takes several relationships for most people to realize that, bluntly, we can’t fix jerks.

You will almost certainly love someone else. However, you’re already incredibly emotionally invested in this guy, which makes it much less likely to do that. I personally think you need to run, not walk, away from this guy, but only you can make that decision.

I’m writing this from the perspective of a semi-single person in her mid-30s. I actually hate being alone and it bothers me that I haven’t found someone for a permanent relationship at this point, but at the same time, it genuinely is much, much better to be alone than to be with someone who doesn’t respect you.

At this point, some of my friends that I would have been so envious of when I was younger for having partners? They’ve gotten divorced. Some have been physically or emotionally abused. Some continue in these types of relationships, each day full of petty cruelty and loneliness. It’s not better to have someone, anyone, than no one.

You’re still young. There’s a reason it (usually) takes several relationships before we know what we want, know the signs to avoid jerks and have grown into ourselves enough to pick a more permanent mate. Or you might decide you don’t want one.

Because once you’ve moved on from this guy and gain some backward perspective you’re almost certainly going to be incredibly glad to have escaped. It’ll probably take some time (it usually took me about six months, even when I was the one doing the breaking up).

One more thing. Despite what the dominant culture tells you, love means virtually nothing in a relationship. Whether it works or not depends primarily on whether all partners are willing to put the work in emotionally. Love is the easy part. Once you’re free that will likely come fairly easily–but likely not until you have emotional space for it.

makroth
makroth
8 years ago

@Chiomara

Ringtail cat and Tamarin monkey. I don’t know who the little panda girl is.

Axecalibur
Axecalibur
8 years ago

@IP
I’ve been up for too long, and have only eaten bread and shredded cheese in the last 24 hours. Not in the best condition for accurate grammar… Good lookin out, homie!
http://media3.giphy.com/media/IxJMT1ugyBMdy/giphy.gif

LG
LG
8 years ago

Any relationship in which respect flows only one way is an abusive relationship, and it will not get better, only worse.

Asking a husband or boyfriend to stop reading manosphere materials is reasonable because they are abuse manuals.

It sounds like he was loving and respectful to you in the beginning, and you’re having trouble reconciling that with how abusive he’s being now. That’s completely par for the course for abusers, though: they generally DO feel love and respect for partners early on because they have unrealistic expectations for ideal, fairytale love that will complete them and make them perfectly happy with no effort on their part, and at the outset it’s easy for them to believe this is what they’ll get. Early in the relationship, when the chemical phenomenon of romantic love is at its strongest and you’re on a dopamine and oxytocin high, abusers believe that (and feel entitled to) those chemical feelings lasting forever, even getting stronger.

But as any reasonable adult knows, that’s not how it works. The chemical magic wears off, and if you haven’t used that magic time to create at least the beginnings of a solid foundation of respectful, bonded intimacy, it’s all downhill from there. Many relationships fail because people can’t do this or don’t get that they need to, but abusers IME are the people who go one big, nasty step further and blame their partners for the fact that the high is gone/slipping away.

There is obviously more to abuse than that, but it’s an important dynamic to consider.

Oh, and it seems to me that the guy is seriously doing a number on your self-esteem. You’re apologizing for everything and nothing.

Joel (on twitter @deathtothefilth)
Joel (on twitter @deathtothefilth)
8 years ago

@ Joel (the other one.)
I was here first dammit! (I kid).

I caught this article on a twitter link. Glad to see you getting quoted in Salon David.

LG
LG
8 years ago

Oh, and *snaps* to what Jarnsaxa said about learning that we can’t fix jerks.

Reasonably, the closest you can come to fixing jerks is giving them real consequences for their jerks behavior, meaning leaving their asses for it.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

Chiomara,

I have no solid advice, but I just wanted to say that taking care of yourself is not selfish. The guilt you feel isn’t due to any wrong doing on your part. It’s because women are socialized to put themselves last. If you decide to leave or if you stay with firm conditions, that doesn’t make you a bad person.

Kat
Kat
8 years ago

@Jarnsaxa

It takes several relationships for most people to realize that, bluntly, we can’t fix jerks.

That was certainly true for me.

Possibly I was fooled by the fact that different jerks have different personalities. And different politics. Some jerks are stalwart lefties! (Ha, ha, ha — as if.)

Once I got domestic violence counseling, I learned to recognize the signs that someone is trying to control me. When you’re in love, you’re not at your most logical — you’re at your most hopeful. For me (and mileage certainly may vary), when I start feeling as though I’m being hemmed in or penned in or confined in some way, I know I’m being abused. There’s nothing that I can do that’s right. Because an abuser certainly doesn’t want a happy, self-confident partner!

Pol
Pol
8 years ago

You have a friend Chiomara. I know what it is like.

And P.S.

Fuck em. 😉

LindsayIrene
LindsayIrene
8 years ago

The panda girl reminded me of this:

comment image

Berdache from a previous life
Berdache from a previous life
8 years ago

David:

Welcome back, always appreciate your work.

Chiomara

One of the hardest things I’ve ever done was leaving an abusive relationship, I was incoherent for months afterwards, had to lean hard on my friends and support network. What I can say is, It was worth it.

It was a relationship that had gotten worse and worse over time, the decision to leave was made when a friend of mine said ” You deserve to be treated with respect”, it broke through the last bit of denial I had and I left shortly afterwards.

You deserve to be treated with respect.

About Trump:

Don’t think the “decent” things that Trump did should be used to defend him so much as used to point out his hyprocrisy. For example, his opinion on Hillary and abortion before and after he became a republican candidate for president. He was for both before he started running and against both afterwards.

There are dozens of examples of this behavior, doesn’t make him mentally ill or a lizard person, just a cynical entitled AHole who’ll say whatever he thinks people want to hear to get what he wants.

kupo
kupo
8 years ago

He claims I took him out of suicide

@Chio
Just so you know, this can be a red flag. He’s made you feel responsible for his very life, and if you decide to leave him he might tell you he’s suicidal as a result of that. If that happens, seek abuse counseling and understand that you’re not responsible for his feelings.

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

Scott Adams claims to be endorsing Hillary Clinton because he’s afraid he’ll be killed by her supporters if he supports Trump
http://gawker.com/dilbert-guy-fears-assassination-by-hillary-clinton-ex-1780764396

I just…what?

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

Wait. Why am I on moderation?

weirwoodtreehugger: communist bonobo

Maybe it was the link that did it. Although I only have one. Anyway, Scott Adams is claiming that he’s endorsing Hillary Clinton because he’s afraid he’ll be killed by her supporters if he supports Trump. The story is on Gawker.

Florkje
Florkje
8 years ago

Scott Adams claims to be endorsing Hillary Clinton because he’s afraid he’ll be killed by her supporters if he supports Trump
http://gawker.com/dilbert-guy-fears-assassination-by-hillary-clinton-ex-1780764396

I just…what?

When you’re not nice or interesting enough to be liked, you can always pretend to be ‘dangerous’ enough to be killed, I guess. 😉
#barrel #bottom #scraping