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Why pickup artists see Donald Trump as the ultimate alpha male

Donald Trump: Red Pill idol
Donald Trump: Red Pill idol

So Amanda Marcotte has a nice piece in Salon today on the adoration the world’s most repellant pickup artists feel towards Donald Trump:

Pickup artists like Daryush Valizadeh, who goes by the name “Roosh” … and James C. Weidmann, who goes by the ridiculous name Heartiste, absolutely adore Trump. In him, they see a kindred spirit, a man who believes women exist to be submissive and flattering and provide sex and have no value outside of that.

I shared some thoughts on the subject with her via email:

“Trump is, in many ways, their ideal alpha male, an arrogant, deliberately obnoxious asshole who treats women like shit but has a former model more than twenty years his junior as a wife,” Futrelle told me over email. “It doesn’t hurt that she’s Eastern European; PUAs like Roosh Valizadeh contend that American women are basically spoiled by too much feminism, and see Eastern European women, by contrast, as relatively unspoiled.”

Marcotte takes a look at some of the gushing tributes to Trump that Heartiste and Matt Forney have spilled on the internet, then peeks into the Red Pull subreddit, which, she writes,

is teeming with discussion threads positing that Trump is a role model and that the disrespect and abuse he dishes out to women is behavior to imitate.

 “Donald Trump teaches us something very important. Never bow down when put on the spot in front of a women,” one poster’s headline declares. In it, the poster explains that the way Trump treated Megyn Kelly, i.e., being a dick to her, was how men generally should, uh, handle women.

“This is a vital lesson to all men. Never ever let the hottest girl in the room manipulate you and break your frame. Never give in,” the poster writes. (“Your frame” is pickup artist lingo for trying to project an aura of overconfidence and stubbornness, or mostly just about being a bully.) “Even if you make a mistake, NEVER apologize to a girl.” 

Kelly is 45, a bit old to be “a girl.” Come to think of it, isn’t she way too old to be the “hottest girl in the room,” at least according to Red Pill dogma, which posits that women all “hit the wall” by age 30, if not earlier, and are shortly afterwards transformed into ancient crones fit only for cohabiting with cats?

And, wait a minute, isn’t Melania Trump 46? Why hasn’t alpha dog Trump traded her in for some 19-year-old Ukrainian hottie?

Could it be that the “the wall” isn’t really a thing. not even to the Red Pillers who talk about it all the time? Could “the wall” be little more than a revenge fantasy of Red Pillers who desperately want to believe that the young women who turn them down will someday face their comeuppance by suddenly contracting a case of the uglies?

Marcotte finds herself wondering something rather similar, suggesting at the end of her piece that perhaps

“pickup artistry” is not really about improving your game with the ladies, so much as it’s about giving men permission to belittle and bully women under the guise of becoming “alpha.”

That such men would love Trump, then, is no surprise. Trump is loud, orange, stupid, and ridiculous, but he is a bully, and to the pickup artist community, that’s what it takes to be a man.

Yep.

 

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epitome of incomprehensibility

@Redsilkphoenix – I smiled, but I shouldn’t have. If people want to make fun of Canada, there’s plenty of awful weather here to mock. No need to resort to Bieber-hate.

@joel mael – Welcome!

Chiomara
Chiomara
8 years ago

Completely unrelated, as always, but hello, guys.
Today I had yet another fight with that boyfriend I told you about. It all began with him watching a video of one of those goddamn YouTube assholes talking about the X-Men banner thing. He said it’s the same thing as asking a bacon sandwich outdoor to be taken out because bacon may offend muslims, and he compared the image to the one of Bane breaking Batman’s back. I am so done with his obsession with muslims and those ridiculous arguments.
After two years, I was done and I just had to tell him he is just freaking dumb and I was beginning to feel repelled by that.
This may sound cruel and disgusting, I know. And maybe it is, I am not proud of that. But fact is, though I can easily like, admire and sympathize with people that don’t seem too smart on my view, I can’t feel attracted. Smartness is relative, I know. Me personally finding someone dumb doesnt mean they are dumb, but it does mean I don’t find them attractive. I have tried to control that, but I can’t, it’s a very strong preference. And if the person is dumb in my view but act smug, my god, that’s when I am physically repulsed. It has nothing to do with education level. I have an uncle who can barely write but who is much smarter than me. Nothing to do with disagreeing with me either, there are few things I find sexier than having to say “damn, you know what, I didn’t think of THAT angle. You are right. Tell me more.”.

Anyway. I don’t know if that preference is moral, BUT it’s what attracts me and for me, attraction is important in a relationship. So that statement meant a lot for both of us. And that’s when he showed me his true face and went full MRA. And by full I mean FULL, going as far as mentioning suicide rates and saying things like “Tumblr feminism”, “cupcake”, “kitten”, “princess”, “fee fees”, etc. In a HUGE rant that could be spit by Elam himself. Not even a MRA worth of thought, no, Elam, the lowest hanging and most pathetic fruit ever. And that’s when I noticed NOTHING I experienced or told him in these last 2 years were worth of anything for him. I live in Brazil, it’s freaking messed up here. Not to mention what happened with me, the same exact thing happened to countless others, including a 16 yo who was raped by 30 men two weeks ago. She was ridiculed by everyone and the rapists are free, just like me, and then he DARES saying it’s not systemic, he DARES saying we make up problems cause we don’t have any, he DARES calling me “cupcake” or “princess” (you know who used to call me princess?! That’s right.) and saying my knowledge resumes to buzzfeed.

After all I went through, all I am STILL GOING THROUGH he DARES saying there’s NO PROOF of systemic opression or rape culture or any of that. He acts like I became a feminist because someone attracted to some kind of cult that brainwashed me, and not because YOU CAN’T IGNORE REALITY WHEN IT KILLS YOU AND YOUR SIMILARS DAILY. It’s not AN ARGUMENT. It’s not a THEORY. It’s a knife digged in my flesh and yes, I DO TAKE ISSUE WITH YOU REFUSING TO SEE A GODDAMN KNIFE IN MY AND EVERYONE’S FLESH from the moment we are born to the moment we die.

And so that was it. I left letting him know I am beginning to find him dumb and somewhat cruel and selfish, and it’s unappealing and I can no longer ignore it. He left letting me know I entered a cult, can’t take (very smart and well based!) different opinions and am destroying my life. We will not talk to each other for a week.I will use this week to decide if I will try yet again or give up.

Truth is, I love him. And falling in love is rare for me. Believe me, I have tried a lot these last years. Again, may sound very stupid and selfish, but yeah, it’s difficult for me, especially considering I am shy and easy to scare, not to mention I don’t exactly have people making lines to get to me. Me being single would be easier for everyone. Maybe even ideal considering my difficult personality. But I don’t want to be single. Being in love feels good. Being loved feels good, as does planning a future in which I am not alone.

Appart from that, I feel sad. I feel lonely. I don’t have my friends anymore. They have their own busy lives and no longer want to take the trouble of fitting me in their schedule. I don’t have my parents anymore, because every time I even am in the same room they fight with me. My attempts of making new friends or interacting with people I admire were either ignored, ridiculed, or treated with contempt. My only physical contact is with my cat or my sister’s baby. Every time I attempt to mindless chat with my family I am talked over or fought with. I spend my days doing my best to avoid being verbally hurt again. I spend days planning a 30 minute gathering with my friends that end up not happening, and when it does happen I feel sorry for my existence. I am alone. I am so alone that if I have a problem the only place I feel really free to speak up and ask for advice is this place. It would be ok to be lonely if I was fine, healthy, functional. But I am not. The will and joy to live slips away from my fingers every day, as I work or study or watch series alone, as I haven’t been under the sun for months, as I haven’t had a nice meal in months, as I can’t remember the last time I truly laughed or danced or sang. He is almost my only meaningful human interaction and he loves me. He finds time for me. He supports me. He accepts me. He takes care of me and he made great sacrifices for me. He makes them every day.
I wonder if I am being selfish or childish. If I make a big deal out of nothing. If I should stay with him and accept his opinions and ways instead of trying to change him. If I should settle for a relationship where we only discuss personal and trivial matters to avoid fights. Or if I should bet the biggest treasure I have, one of the few occasional rays of occasional sun for the peace of being single and finally most completely alone and lost, without a single solid plan in my messed up life, because he doesn’t interpret reality the way I do. But on the other hand I wonder if I can live with, marry, have children with a man I often don’t admire or feel attracted to, and who sees reality, MY reality, in such a different and disgusting way. I don’t know if my depression oversizes a tiny problem. I don’t know if my depression is trying to trick me into destroying my life. It’s honestly difficult to see fiction from reality and to size things up when you are mostly alone and this deep in a pit. Today breaking up sounds nice and logical, tomorrow I am apologizing and thinking “why the hell did I think this was worth breaking up over?”. Today I decide that if my friends don’t want to talk to me anymore then I wont sacrifice for them, tomorrow I am skipping a wedding to meet them at McDonalds. I have no idea what is real, what I feel or what I want anymore.

I know it’s getting repetitive at this point and you think I have nothing to apologize for, but once again I am sorry for the unrelated wall of text.

kupo
kupo
8 years ago

@Chiomara
I’m sorry you’re going through that right now. I think it’s a really good idea that you’re taking a break for a week; hopefully the distance from the emotional moment will give you a clearer perspective and you won’t feel like any decision you make was in the heat of the moment.

You mentioned that you’re worried you’re being selfish. The thing is, it’s actually really important to be selfish sometimes. It’s like when you’re on a plane and they tell you to put the oxygen mask on yourself before you help others. You can’t be of any use to him if you’re not looking after yourself. You’ve mentioned before that his therapist thinks you’re helping him a lot, but are you helping yourself, too? Are your needs being met?

You mentioned that it’s hard for you to fall in love. It can be hard for me, too. I used to think love was so, so important. That once you fall in love you need to stand by that person, that you need to protect them and give them chances. That thinking led me to stay with an emotionally abusive and occasionally physically violent man for over a decade. It made it very difficult for me to realize what a good, loving relationship looks like. I thought we had love, it felt like love, but he never considered my needs. He manipulated me into feeling like I needed him, like I would be so alone without him (he drove my friends away until all I had was him), and so I stayed because he was my whole world. And yes, I was miserable when single, but I never would have found my husband if I didn’t keep trying to find someone who would treat me well.

I don’t know what your relationship is like, and I’m not saying it’s anything like mine was, but I just want you to know that love isn’t enough. Think about it, about whether you’re happy or miserable, and if what makes you happy is him as a person or the feeling of love, and whether what makes you miserable is normal life stuff or your relationship with him.

This isn’t easy, and I’m really sorry that you’re dealing with it on top of your family issues. And if you want me to stop giving advice and just lisyen, be sure to let me know. I know it can be frustrating when you’re looking for sympathy and get a bunch of unwanted advice.

Chiomara
Chiomara
8 years ago

Sorry for my erratic punctuation, everyone. I naturally have problems with that, but it gets much worse when I am emotional.

@Kupo
Oh, no, dear, I posted here precisely to get advice, because I honestly am having problems seeing reality. And thank you for yours. It meant a lot to me.

Paradoxical Intention - Resident Cheeseburger Slut

authorialAlchemy | June 5, 2016 at 8:34 pm
Wait, he raped his current wife?

It might have been his previous wife? I don’t quite recall. My memory’s been shit lately. I blame the heat. I can’t function well in the heat.

Still, he’d be doing Melania a favor.

@Chiomara: Allow me to speak from experience for a moment: I’ve done the same thing you’re doing. I’ve latched on to people who showed me the slightest glimmer of human kindness because I didn’t get a lot of it, thrown all of my feelings at their feet, only to have them stomped on and thrown back in my face.

Kupo’s right. You need to ask yourself if you love him, or if you love the idea of being with him.

Because it seems to me, just from what you’ve posted, that he doesn’t care for you when you try to bring up things that bother you. You said he belittled you and treated you as though you were stupid. He called you names that he knew were condescending, and said you were just brainwashed and refused to listen to you.

These are all signs of an abuser, Chio. He only seems to love you conditionally, and the condition is that you ignore things that are important to you and bit your tongue when he does things that bother you. He wants you to be silent about things that affect you. Affect all the women you know. He doesn’t want to hear what you have to say, and it looks like he’s not ever going to listen.

That’s not healthy. And I know it’s hard to consider that maybe you should leave, but if he’s making you this upset because he keeps fighting with you, and even you admit that you’re not finding him attractive anymore, perhaps it’s time to leave. It’s a hard decision to make, but you’ll be far better off.

And I know it’s not much, but we’re always here, Chio. I know most of us are thousands of miles away from you, but we’re here for you. You’re a part of our community.

Scildfreja
Scildfreja
8 years ago

<3 Chiomara <3

You will always have friends here. We will always listen. You have a blank cheque to say as much or as little as you want here.

Depression is a toxin, just like alcohol. It impairs your judgement, it limits your ability to see possibilities, and after a while it can be hard to escape. Beating it is a challenge.

I can’t pretend to know what’s right in your relationship with him. All I can say is that it sounds like you know what you want to do, but you’re afraid to do it.

Loneliness is hard, it’s a cold and shadowed place.
There’s a fear you might forget the feel of sunlight on your face.
For the heat that’s in your heart has guttered out and gotten dim.
A little empty in the middle, little hard along the rim.
But a hard and hollow hole can hold some heat and hold some light,
and a fire that’s guttered out can, with some tinder, re-ignite.
There’s still sunlight, there’s still sun, there’s still a world and still your place
And there’s still friends you haven’t met to share the sunlight on your face.

This too will pass, Chio <3 Wish I could give you more.

EDIT: What Paradoxy said. You can’t change him, Chio, he can only change himself, and you’ve seen how he reacts when you bring it up.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
8 years ago

@Chiomara – wow, that’s really hard and I’m so sorry. No advice here, just internet hugs and sympathy.

Well, maybe some questions. You have one chance at life. Do you really want to spend it with someone who doesn’t fundamentally respect your reality or your values? Are you willing to settle for a relationship that’s always doomed to stay at the surface, even if it means walking on eggshells and being inauthentic? What if something tragic did happen to you? Would you truly be able to get support from a guy who calls you dismissive names and jokes about your “fee fees”? Do you trust him enough to be vulnerable – I mean really, really vulnerable, warts-and-all vulnerable, with your deepest and ugliest fears, when the chips are down?

It’s easy to have a great relationship based on laughter and similar tastes when life is going well, but the true test is being able to cry together. There will be rough times in your life, guaranteed. Losses, accidents, unfair shit. And that’s what a relationship is really for – to have someone who’s there for you no matter what. You can’t cry around someone who mocks you, and thinks they know better than you what you should be upset about.

Taking a week apart sounds like a good idea. Hope you’re able to find some clarity and figure out what you need. We’re here for you.

Re: Donald Trump and autism, is anyone else sick of seeing autism used as a synonym for “indifferent to social mores”? That’s….not the same thing.

Look, the guy is just an asshole. Period. End of story. We don’t need to speculate about the way his brain is wired. He happens to be lucky enough to live in a culture that rewards his particular cluster of personality traits. In other circumstances – with less money, fewer connections, or a disfavored ethnic/socioeconomic background – he’d probably bounce from job to job, relationship to relationship, leaving a string of failures, conflict, and pissed-off exes behind. Instead of being applauded, he’d be shunned as a creep. Sound like your average MGTOWer? They love Trump precisely because he can be them, and get away with it.

I don’t care what Trump’s pathology is. I don’t care to diagnose him from afar. His actions speak for themselves, loud and clear. For all of his money and upbringing and education and access to the best of everything, he’s still morally bankrupt. That’s my issue with all these guys the manosphere worships, from Trump to Brock Turner – they should know better, and they do this shit anyway. Because society lets them. Not because they’re “mentally ill”.

Re: Justin Bieber, there was a journalist (…can’t remember his name. Evo psych devotee. PhD. Book smart but incredibly dumb about human relations. Used to write economics columns for, I wanna say, the Guardian online or some other mainstream publication. Someone here will probably be able to identify him better than me). Anyway, in one series of columns I read, this guy was tying himself up in knots because he simply couldn’t come up with an evo pysch just-so story to explain the Bieber phenomenon. All of his gut feelings and shoddy redpill research studies told him that women are attractive because looks, men are attractive because money, ergo a young girl and rich old dude are the most natural pairing. Evo pysch says young cavegirls desire a mature protector with a lot of resources, so why do young girls lust after teen heartthrobs instead of Warren Buffett? Why why why? This really bothered him. (It didn’t occur to him to think “well, maybe it’s because my theory is BULL POO.”)

Then finally, an intrepid Redpill reader pointed out that this was because young cavegirls are still under the protection of Daddy’s resources, so it’s safe for them to moon over Justin Bieber. The journalist was so relieved – his worldview could stay intact! Crisis averted!

I really wanted to leave a comment asking why older (20-something) women who are in the process of leaving the family and actively seeking mates still fail to swoon over Donald Trump and Warren Buffett, but the comment section was closed. Darn.

FrickleFrackle
FrickleFrackle
8 years ago

I’m not in your shoes but he sounds pretty bad. About selfishness, I’ve heard it been put that being selfish is putting your wants before someone else’s needs, and it sounds like he’s taking enough of a toll on your well-being to where it’s not selfish to leave him.

Scildfreja
Scildfreja
8 years ago

Look, the guy is just an asshole. Period. End of story. We don’t need to speculate about the way his brain is wired.

So much true. Too much ridiculous discussion is spent on abnormal neurophysiology when talking about distinctive personality traits, as if trying to root an unpleasant personality in biology or something. This is ridiculous. And this is coming from someone who talks about neurophysiology and its relation to personality and cognition all the ding-dang-day. Abnormal neurophysiology is strictly not required to explain greedy, selfish, myopic assholes. Plain old normal physiology is more than sufficient.

FrickleFrackle
FrickleFrackle
8 years ago

People are dicks, and are gonna be dicks independently of how the brain is wired, at least from where I’m standing.

Axecalibur
Axecalibur
8 years ago

@Chio
I’m so fucking sorry. Nobody should have to experience this. Least of all you, and least of all now

Angry flow of consciousness venting below. I know nothing about your situation or love/relationships in general, so massive salt grain:

And now to this shit person

you know who used to call me princess?! That’s right

comment image
Fuck. That. Guy. So. Much!
I’m not lost for words, tho I am running low on blog appropriate words. So much to say, but I can’t, and it hurts me that I can’t. Literally sweating. It’s too hot outside for me to be vicariously dealing with this muthafucka’s bullshit!

He supports me. He accepts me. He takes care of me and he made great sacrifices for me

Not. The fuck. Enough!
He calls you those despicable names, and yet you’re the childish one? You are making a big deal out of this because it is, actally, a big deal. Seems to me you know it is. He doesn’t, so fuck him

Finally, this… just… *hugs*

But I don’t want to be single. Being in love feels good. Being loved feels good, as does planning a future in which I am not alone

Chio, you’re already alone. Being coupled up is not the same as being together. This guy is a human meteor, an extinction event for your psyche. He wants to wipe away You to be replaced by the ‘cool’ version of You. The You that doesn’t have “feefees”. The You that doesn’t have ideas or opinions. The You that doesn’t have a history with ‘Princess’ that he has to be supportive of. So inconvenienced his life must be /s.
Basically, no, he doesn’t love you, even if he thinks he does. Take your week, give your relationship some serious thought, and do what’s right for you. We’re all here for you, whatever you decide

And, sorry for the rage. This whole thread is horrible, so by the time I got to you… I had to post it lest I explode 🙂

OoglyBoggles
OoglyBoggles
8 years ago

@Chiomara
As a person who has never been in a relationship before, I cannot even being to imagine what you’ve been through. I would like to say more to help, but the best I can do is hugs and sympathies. You deserve better, you really do. I don’t think that anyone here would disagree with that. Would you like a couple cats and dogs?

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/202826-4/Turtle-basket-kitten.gif
comment image

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/204337-2/Kittens-stalking.gif
comment image

Sorry if this comes off as tone deaf.

Gipsz Jakab
Gipsz Jakab
8 years ago

@Chiomara:

Throw him right out on his stupid ass, I say. As bad as the loneliness can be, you’re still honestly better off single than with such a shithead.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
8 years ago

@Redsilkphoenix
People have complex motivations. I was never all that interested in Bieber, and I currently dislike him because 1) he’s seemingly everywhere and 2) he presents himself as something of a jerk, although that jerk image probably has a lot to do with the fact that his maturity and thought processes haven’t yet caught up with his wealth and fame. Misogyny could definitely play a role in Bieber hate, but I’d need to get a better sampling of people’s individual reasons for it before I’d feel comfortable trying to pinpoint any particular cause or figure out how much what factors contribute to it.

Kylo Ronin
Kylo Ronin
8 years ago

@Chiomara

I don’t know you very well nor do I presume to know what you are going through but I want you to know that you are not the only person who is grappling with a (sort of) similar issue. I myself am going through a bit of a rough patch, what with having a very public and very embarrassing argument with an old high school friend, a friend whom I’ve known for eight years, about a certain douchebag, Sargon of Akkad, Trump apologia, and how I keep getting fed up with my friend bringing up his horrid opinions when he knows how I feel about them. I’m going to have to open up personally here; due to having moved around a lot, my friendships would dissolve because I couldn’t keep in contact with them, so it was a Goddamn miracle when I managed to not only keep in contact with my HS friend but to do it from across the country. We shared similar interests (he even introduced me to Final Fantasy VII, one of my favorite video games ever). Two years ago, when I came back home, he took me in his home when my father was being abusive.

Fast forward to today and he has become very MRAish and pushing Trump memes. He belittles me and is sometimes cruel with me. Back then I chalked it up to just him using dark humor to cope with his own problems like I do but it’s gotten to the point where I just think he’s mean-spirited for the sake of it. And then he makes a glib comment on an FB post I made about the whole Cap America/Bucky fundraiser and I lost my temper, resulting in the argument where he said he would support Trump and that I should unfriend him if I had a problem with that. I don’t know if he said that to spite me or if he really meant it but I couldn’t deal with him at the moment and isolated myself away from him.

Perhaps I could have handled it better without losing my temper or just PM’ing him and asking him politely to not make anymore glib comments. I ask myself sometimes if I go too far with my views, if I’m alienating friends and family because of them, and whether or not if I’m acting like a complete jerkass at the drop of a pin. Maybe I should just moderate the way I express myself.

It’s nigh impossible for me to write him off because we’re best friends. But if he keeps on being like this then maybe it is the end for us. I’m scared as hell because I don’t know what is gonna happen next…but at the same time, I’m done tolerating his crap and I feel I shouldn’t have to put up with him being disrespectfulness.

I don’t think my situation comes close compared to yours or maybe it does compare to yours but I want you to know that you have my sympathies and support. Good on you for taking a break.

Sincerely,
Kylo Ronin

EJ (The Other One)
8 years ago

@Chiomara:
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I have never found what you say to be repetitive or unrelated. You have always come across a genuine, honest and loving human being, and that means it’s impossible for me to not care about you. If this makes you feel better, please feel free to say as much as you like whenever you like.

About the boy.

It sounds to me as if he doesn’t admire you. That doesn’t mean that he doesn’t think you’re kind, or nice, or pretty; it means that he has his own standards for determining whether or not he thinks a given human being should be admired or not, and you don’t meet them. From what you’ve said before, it sounds as though the people he admires are very STEM sorts.

There are lots of STEM women in the world. He chose not to date any of them, and instead chose to date someone that it sounds like he doesn’t admire or even respect, merely tolerate.

You deserve far better than to be merely tolerated. You’re an extremely kind, thoughtful and loving person. If these are things that he doesn’t value and admire, then he needs to examine his own motives for dating you. Right now, those motives are looking pretty shady.

Chiomara
Chiomara
8 years ago

You will always have friends here. We will always listen. You have a blank cheque to say as much or as little as you want here.

I WANT TO SQUEEZE YOU ALLLLLLLLL

Okay, here we are at the part where I hamster all of his actions and it looks like I am making a fool out of all of you. You ready to get mad at me? Here we go:

What if something tragic did happen to you? Would you truly be able to get support from a guy who calls you dismissive names and jokes about your “fee fees”? Do you trust him enough to be vulnerable – I mean really, really vulnerable, warts-and-all vulnerable, with your deepest and ugliest fears, when the chips are down?

Well, this is the complicated part of this. Of course there are worse things to go through in life but when I was (before I say this awful word again, I am SORRY for bringing this up all the time. It was the turning point of my life, I hope I am not hurting anyone) raped, he was the first and only one to be there for me.
The moment I was safe at home I told him what happened * and he was the first one to say that I was raped. At the time I was not a feminist and had a blurry idea of consent, so I insisted it was not rape, he insisted it was. He skipped his night of sleep and his work to be there for me. And he was. He was the only one who never questioned or guilted me. When the doctor and the police laughed in my face when I thought I could be pregnant of the guy, when I was bleeding and thought I never could be penetrated again, when I couldnt let him even look at my body without panicking, he was there. When I woke up moaning and crying every other night, when I decided to suicide. I have been suicidally depressed for two years, I went from “so innocent and optimistic and smiley it’s nearly ridiculous” to “I haven’t showered for a week and I half because I don’t have the strength to leave this bed. Now tell me i look pretty.” in one freaking night. He was there for me too when my house burnt down and my parents were in the ICU. He has seen me vulnerable and ugly and nearly dead, and he has been SO comprehensive, and supportive. Even if we break up, I know that when shit goes down, if he has only one slice of bread and I say I am hungry, he will give me 3/4 of it without question.
It’s not only me, either. He looks almost ridiculously selfish at first sight, every one hates him and finds him a douche (it’s almost like he WANTS to look like one?!), but when you know of his past, usually through third parties, you discover he has been to places and done things you can’t imagine, strongly risking his own life for others, giving almost strangers money he didnt have, etc. I know, you will say he made it up, but I have been proven and have no doubt, so lets just cement that as true.
So, you see, he IS there for CONCRETE people when they need, but he somehow has a huge problem sympathizing with people in a colective way or relating concrete happenings with abstract concepts, and he gets more rude and dumb the more abstract and colective the problem gets. For example: sure, you were raped. I am so deeply sorry, honey. Sure, in a room with 50 people no one stopped the rape. Sure, the law failed you. Sure, THOUSANDS of women have gone through the exact same. But this is something that happens because your laws are not eficient, your police is badly trained, and your rapists are just evil people. It has NOTHING to do with rape culture, what a ridiculous concept, nothing to do misunderstanding of consent in a societal level, EVERYONE understands, men are not stupid, and, by god, no, jokes about rape or romantization of abuse in the media have NOTHING to do with it, how DARE they claim this is opression, how DARE them criticize (=censor) that comedian, or GOT? You just watched something that triggered you? I am so sorry. I am here for you. Btw, how DARE feminists ask for Trigger warnings?!? NO ONE GIVES A DAMN if it hurts their feefees. Oh, you are in favor of Trigger warnings?!?? I don’t give a DAMN about this tumblr feminism. Trans people have it bad, yes, wait, WHAT THE FUCK is this third wave bs?! WHY a third wave? I wish I had more freedom to talk to my dad, WAIT, what do you mean boys are not encouraged to talk emotionally to other guys? That’s ludicrous.

I have no idea how does this make sense in his mind, but it does, it really does, and I can’t get him out of it. It’s just such non sense. When it’s individuals, especially if it’s me, he cares. When you point out those individuals are part of a colective and it’s much easier and more effective to adress it collectively, his brain just breaks and he begins to talk like a completely different person. A person I hate and am disgusted by, living in the same body as the most gentle and truly caring and self sacrificing person I ever met, as long as you don’t say any feminist buzzword near him. I don’t understand. I don’t want to live without one, but I can’t live with the other. It’s so contradicting that I wonder if I am oversizing or misunderstanding everything. It doesn’t make sense. It’s completely irrational, like a phobia or something. That’s why I can’t make up my mind. I don’t want to lose the half I love.

Not. The fuck. Enough!
He calls you those despicable names, and yet you’re the childish one? You are making a big deal out of this because it is, actally, a big deal. Seems to me you know it is. He doesn’t, so fuck him.

Yes, fuck him on the “princess” matter. I think he just forgets that detail since it’s not a habit of his and therefore I haven’t corrected him more than maybe once, but you know what, he freaking shouldnt forget. I wouldnt. I understand your anger, I am angry too. And disgusted. I hate this word especially because it implies I am privileged and think I deserve to be treated with extreme honors when I actually don’t, I am less that what I think I am and am about to be put in my righteous place. In the context it was originally used it was extremely humiliating, and when I am called that my heart just tightens as I remember what my “place” is. It’s pretty much the worst word one can call me, it’s directly linked to a very especific scene. And he should know that.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
8 years ago

@Chiomara
It’s hard when a person (especially a lover) have major faults and you have to try to figure out at what point those faults overshadow their good qualities and when you can no longer deal with them. It’s even harder to do that when your friends are drifting apart and you’re having trouble finding new friends. Add in a situation like the one you and your parents were just in with the fire and illness and everything starts to seem impossible. I’m so sorry that this is the way your life is now, and I want to remind you that regardless of physical/geographic distance, I and the rest of the Mammotheers are always here for you (even if we can’t always reply right away).

The first piece of advice I can give you is to get therapy in any way you can, even if you have to do it over the Internet. I just found some links to sites that will connect you to therapists who offer online sessions-I’m not sure if or how well they’ll work for you since you’re based in Brazil, but I hope they’ll at least give you an idea of where to start and what to look for. Full disclosure-the first two links were ads at the top of my Google search.
https://www.betterhelp.com/start/?utm_source=AdWords&utm_medium=Search_PPC&utm_term=online%20therapists_b&utm_content=24152798290&network=g&placement=&target=&matchtype=b&utm_campaign=371722090&ad_type=text&adposition=1t1&gclid=CNr-1rTzks0CFQiUaQodesEOsA&modal=1&go=true
https://www.online-therapy.com/start/+virtual-+therapy.html?gclid=CI_V077zks0CFQcxaQodkBcEdg
https://virtualtherapyconnect.com/
https://www.breakthrough.com/

Being attracted to intelligence (I believe it’s called sapiosexual attraction or sapiosexuality?) is not a moral issue-it doesn’t make you any better or worse than people who are attracted to a certain physical type or personality.

Re: the boyfriend
I definitely agree with Kupo and Buttercup that taking a week away from him to figure out what to do is probably the best thing you can do right now. It’s not selfish-it’s something you need to do in order to be the best possible version of yourself.
I can’t tell you whether or not to break up with him-that’s something only you can decide for yourself. If you do decide to take him back, you must assert boundaries for yourself and be willing to leave the second he violates or disrespects them.
An example, which you can feel free to use as a script if you decide to do this: “I’ll take you back. However, you must do these things in return-stop belittling emotions and emotional displays in others and especially in me, stop reading/watching/listening to MRA materials, open yourself up to other opinions and to the life experiences of others (even if they run contrary to your particular life experience/ideology/mindset), have enough humility to admit when you’re wrong or underinformed, and make a concerted effort to put yourself in my (depressed, emotionally-wired, passionate) shoes and at least try to understand why I think and feel the way I do. I’m going to leave you the moment I find out you’re not doing these things-1 strike and you’re out.”

Re: friendships
It’s possible that the friends who don’t have time for you anymore are disappearing/canceling meetings/not showing up/etc. not out of malice, but because their current circumstances are taking up all their time and mental energy. Because of this, I’d urge you to leave a door open to the possibility of rekindling the friendship if and when their/your lives get more settled. Don’t get mad at them, or at least don’t speak to them in anger. It’s OK to stop speaking to them if doing so and getting rejected is too painful for you right now, but first let them know that you love and miss them and will be there for them if they need you.
Making new friends takes time and dedication-you have to keep trying things and meeting new people before you find the ones that mesh with you. If there are activities in or near your area that fit into your schedule and budget and that you are/used to be interested in, doing them and meeting people there can be a good way to make friends. If you try this and it doesn’t pan out either, now might be a good time to take a break from in-person friend searching and cultivate your relationships with long-distance/Internet friends (like us!) and try to make new ones.

Re: your family
Without personally knowing any of you, my first instinct is to guess that your family members, and especially your parents, are rightfully sad and angry about the fire/parental illnesses/etc. and they can’t or won’t face their feelings about these personal tragedies, so they take it out on you because they see you as a tangible, “safe” target. Boundaries are as key here as they are in your interactions with your friends or boyfriend-you need to tell them that you love them but won’t let them talk to you that way and that you’ll listen to them if/when they’re able to talk constructively about their problems but not before. If any of them might consider going to therapy, I’d recommend that you suggest that to them as well.

Here’s my own wall of text in answer to yours. I hope you can sift through it and find something useful!

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
8 years ago

@ chiomara

Firstly, hugs if you need them. As to the substantive issue people here have already covered that really well. I’ll just chip in then with a couple of points based on the experience of friends of mine who’ve been through what you’re going through. If they don’t apply feel free to ignore.

Guilt – a common experience my friends had was feeling guilty. That wasn’t just in relation to blaming themselves for the actions of the knob abusing them but also for not ‘doing anything about it’. They felt bad that they hadn’t just left and that they’d ‘ignored’ the advice of friends. But human relationships and feelings are complex. When you finally escape this horror you probably will wonder why you didn’t do it earlier, but you mustn’t beat yourself up for not doing so. Even if there are no practical hurdles (financial, dependency, loss of home etc.) there are still all sorts of weird emotional blocks to get past. You’re under no obligation to get past those under any timetable except the one that works for you. It’s easy to say ‘why didn’t you just leave him?’ It’s not always that easy to actually do it, for all sorts of reasons. Two of my friends who went through this actually worked in DV. They knew all the red flags and they acknowledged that, had they been looking from the outside as they do in their professional work, the the solutions would have been obvious. They still couldn’t apply that personally though. We laugh about it now (‘Plumbers’ taps drip’) and they feel a bit daft; but the fact is that at the time the ‘obvious’ solution isn’t necessarily that easy.

Flowing on from that, these people were highly intelligent women. They still feel ‘daft’ though about ‘allowing’ the situation to occur and continue. Just goes to show though that this can happen to anyone. So try not to beat you’re self up about this either. You doesn’t do anyone wrong to get into this situation and it’s no reflection on you that it’s happening or that you haven immediately been able to resolve the matter or adopt any advice that might have been given.

TL;DR You are not at fault here, whether that be the original situation or the way you deal with it.

Kat
Kat
8 years ago

@Chiomara
I spent years with guys who disrespected me. They disrespected me because — as a woman on a domestic violence telephone hotline explained — they made themselves feel bigger by trying to make me feel smaller. I left these relationships but it involved a great deal of struggle on my part. I’m so glad that I no longer deal with an abusive guy.

I believe that people can change but only if they want to change. It sounds like this guy doesn’t want to change because he’s getting too much out of staying the way he is.

I believe that you will change because you want to change. You’re getting so little out of life as it is that you want to change your circumstances.

You’re still in a fragile space right now because of the rape. And then recently you were transported back into crisis mode because of the fire. So you’re not at your best.

My advice? (Take what you like; leave the rest.)

Tell the guy that you want to take a two-month break.

Use that time to reconnect with the world in whatever tiny ways you can.

I’m not sure what that would mean for you. A walk around the block? Looking at catalogs for classes that you can take when you’re ready? Learning a new recipe? A trip to the library?

Do whatever you can do that’s within your comfort zone. Once you’ve done that, you can start expanding your comfort zone.

Put the situation with your boyfriend on the “back burner” of your mind. Your subconscious is like the back burner of a stove. Put that pot labeled “Relationship” on the back burner (into your subconscious) and let it come up with the answer for you. You can revisit it from time to time — give the pot a stir. In two months and a week, take a look at it and see what you’ve got.

Best wishes.

Chiomara
Chiomara
8 years ago

@ Oogly
Yes, yes, YES, kittehs are ALWAYS more than welcome. Thank you!

@Kylo
Same. My unconditional feminism (honestly, it’s no longer even up to discussion for me) and my depression caused grumpiness made me lose pretty much everyone – not that I had many people in the first place. But fuck that, I may be end up alone in a desert, but if you victim blame or mock a rape victim, if you hurt a trans person, or you support Trump even after I try to talk you out of misinformation you may have, I will honestly hate and despise you. I will have a hard time even being civil.
And yes, it does feel breath takingly lonely. I am glad my boyfriend doesnt go as far as supporting Trump, but it does sound like the logical path after people drown in the “Sargon & company” Kool Aid. I am so sorry. I don’t know if we are doing the right thing, but we definitely are doing our best.

@EJ
Yes, yes, I think you are absolutely right. He says the thing he loves and admires most about me is that I am extremely compassionate and smart. Even before he saw my face he was touched by how much I cared about him and everyone, even him not finding himself worth of such love and compassion. He claims I took him out of suicide and the illegal life expecting nothing in return, and I am the first person he actually feels something for in many years, and the one he felt and did more for since ever, all because of my compassion. But if my so called smartness and my social activism are the natural consequences of my compassion, and if he hates my social activism, then he may not actually like my compassion as he thinks he does. He may think compassion is being an antifeminist who claims to care about women in the middle east while not doing anything to help and ignoring the bigger scheme of things. I don’t know.

Argle Bargle (formerly Carr)
Argle Bargle (formerly Carr)
8 years ago

@Chiomara

I’m sorry you had to go through all that. I’ve been in a similar relationship (several, actually) and at the end of it all, I figured out that in most cases these people liked some ideal version of me that they had constructed, but the second I got out of line and ruined the fantasy, there was no love to be shown. So if a person acts like your feelings and experiences aren’t important and can be blow off as overreacting or something like that, chances are they don’t really love you as much as they say they do. Words are pretty, but actions are the thing that counts.
Hope it all turns out for the best

Have a kitty on me

http://www.foundshit.com/pictures/cats/slurpee-tongue-cat.jpg

happy cat
happy cat
8 years ago

Nice to see you again, David. 🙂

Chiomara
Chiomara
8 years ago

@Nikki
Ok, first of all, you are so awesome. Thank you for taking the trouble of looking for those links, this was so kind and smart. But I am already doing therapy. It’s moving slow, but forward.

Being attracted to intelligence (I believe it’s called sapiosexual attraction or sapiosexuality?) is not a moral issue.

I feel like it may be academicist or mean to disabled people. Buuut not much I can do.

An example, which you can feel free to use as a script if you decide to do this: “I’ll take you back. However, you must do these things in return-stop … stop reading/watching/listening to MRA materials

The script you wrote lists EXACTLY what I want from him. But isnt asking him to stop watching something or having an opinion abusive? I have thought of asking for this but it didn’t sound right. I could easily speak the rest of the list without this, but I am pretty sure the other itens heavily depend on this. It’s so frustrating.

It’s possible that the friends who don’t have time for you anymore are disappearing/canceling meetings/not showing up/etc. not out of malice, but because their current circumstances are taking up all their time and mental energy.

OH, it’s DEFINITELY that. I honestly understand they don’t have much time and they have all the right to have a life appart from me. I don’t feel angry at them at all. I just notice they make time for other friends or skip meetings I heavily expected for futile reasons such as “meh, I am too lazy to take a shower and putting pants on”, and then I get sad for noticing I am never worth even the slightest amount of trouble, even when I am going through terrible shit. If anything, I get mad at myself, for failing to be more entertaining and important than their third hook up of the week.
While they like me but don’t find me entertaining enough, people I try to make friends with just seem to straight out despise me. Even when they take the trouble to talk to me, which makes me feel wonderful and loved, a while later I discover they were just being polite with someone they feel is rude, distant, and finds herself better than everyone else (the funny part is I feel the polar opposite). It got to a point where I just got tired to be humiliated and just think I should just spare people of my presence, for the sake of us all. It got to the point that I erase even the things I post in Facebook, because I either get criticized or ignored. I feel unwanted and unloved. Which would be ok if I didn’t want or love people. But dammit, I literally like everyone. And I feel sad.

my first instinct is to guess that your family members, and especially your parents, are rightfully sad and angry about the fire/parental illnesses/etc.

Yes. I have always been the family’s punching bag. The more fragile I am, the worst it gets, even because they get mad at how fragile I am. And then, again, to avoid the horrible feelings my presence seem to cause everywhere, I once more stay silent and alone. Which seem to be working wonders for everyone else, but, you see… I am just… eating my own self at this point.
Thank you for all of your advice.

@Alan
Thank you very much. Maybe I need to be stronger and more assertive

@Kat
That’s WONDERFUL advice. I may just do that.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
8 years ago

@Chiomara
You’re welcome!