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lying liars men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA

Men’s Rights Activism, summed up in a single comment

The anti-male oppression was THIS BIG
The anti-male oppression was THIS BIG

A rare moment of candor on the Men’s Rights subreddit:

Nuggetry 6 points 1 day ago You act like we're all handing out pamphlets on the street to get people to listen. Not all of us here are trying to "convince people" of a cause as you put it. Some of us just want a place where we can rant a bit and let off some steam because there's no where else to do it for some of us. And yes, that means exaggerating and fabricating sometimes.

Yeah, we noticed that.

H/T — r/againstmensrights

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Sinkable John
Sinkable John
5 years ago

@pitshade

I really need a better computer, to be able to play those games with mods. Consoles only get you so far. (and those loadings…) I want an alcohol mod.
Reminds me that at some point I started writing one for Skyrim (even though, again, I can’t run the damn game) that was supposed to randomize the labels on bandit-type enemies. New entries included “Red Piller”, “Neo-Nazi”, “Pick-up Artist”, etc. A few unique named bandits that weren’t mentioned by name in spoken dialogue for quests became “Andrew Anglin”, “Paul Elam”, etc. I was also planning on altering their faces and such.
Ironically, that mod was supposed to be a way to blow off steam after a day spent staring at their bullshit, heh. Then I had to abandon the project because obviously I couldn’t test it. If I ever manage to replace this can-of-lag with a more powerful computer, I might start over and do something bigger.

@Moocow

I have flat feet, putting me at a disadvantage for doing jobs barefoot. I’m still one of the most privileged persons to walk the earth.

I see what you did there ! Joke aside, are there a lot of jobs that require you to go barefoot ? I’m genuinely interested in knowing about this considering barefoot is how I go most of the time, even and especially outside. I mean at this point I can probably stop bullets with my feet. Not that I want to try.

On the privilege thing, sadly these people take “privilege” as an insult rather than something they could use in a positive way. I say let’s show ’em this : http://www.robot-hugs.com/privilege/
It won’t change their minds because hey, when has REALITY ever affected them anyway ? But well, still worth doing.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ sinkable john

sadly these people take “privilege” as an insult

‘Privilege’ can be a tricky word when advocating for political change.

Some friends are involved in analysing their party’s electoral performance over here in the UK. What’s interesting is that when you divorce policies from parties and use everyday language, progressive policies are quite popular. But that’s not fully reflected in election results. The various reports and surveys they’ve commissioned suggest this is down to language (ironically the reports call this “connection”) Labour seems to have used the sort of language that’s common in political circles but not in everyday speech, so they were seen as out of touch.

Privilege cropped up a few times. Firstly saying people had privilege was interpreted on the doorstep as saying “you have everything going for you so you don’t need help”. Secondly ‘dismantling privilege’ was held to have negative connotations. The Tories repeated use of ‘fairness’ and ‘fair play’ went down much better. It was seen as more positive, even if the underlying policies might have been less so.

Electioneering is about style as much as, if not more so, than substance it seems.

Be interesting to see what canvassers are told to do at the next elections.

ETA: there were lots of other factors of course bedside that word. The key one was that the Tories used analogies with everyday household budgeting and language that mirrored that and that went down better than technical stuff about economics even if it was oversimplifying and not truly analogous.

Dalillama
5 years ago

@Alan

ETA: there were lots of other factors of course bedside that word. The key one was that the Tories used analogies with everyday household budgeting and language that mirrored that and that went down better than technical stuff about economics even if it was oversimplifying and not truly analogous.

That’s not ‘oversimplifying’ it’s lying. There is literally zero correlation between how to run a household budget and how to run a government budget, and trying to do it the same way leads to disaster, every single time. (Not to mention that people who analogize government to households and/or businesses tend to be terrible at running any of these three things).

Scildfreja
Scildfreja
5 years ago

re: Cosby Trial, while I’m super thrilled that they’re proceeding on it and looking to see if a trial is possible, the last I recall a grand jury looking at this was when a police officer murdered an unarmed black man on a suburban street. Apparently the story is that such a process could indite a ham sandwich, but the cop got off free. So I’m not incredibly hopeful. I do hope that I’m surprised by the outcome, though!

re: Stellaris,

@Sinkable John, It isn’t a huge stretch for me. I get introverted pretty easily, so quite often I just want to be left alone to do my own thing. So, I just put that out on my empire! It’s not that I think I’m better than all the weird walkin’ mushrooms and spacebirbs, it’s just that I’d rather they not be all up in my face all the time. I don’t drive too far down the Stormcloak path in Skyrim either, for the reasons you talk about.

@Brian, it’s much easier than CK2 or EU4. Paradox intentionally went simpler, so as to line up more with the traditional space 4X games like Master of Orion. Very much worth it, if you like those sorts of things. Not an intimidating game at all.

@EJ, i know! I will have to do something to make it a bit harder for myself if I go in that direction. Maybe I’ll pick sedentary and be one of those space mushrooms.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ dalillama

Indeed. But to give an example, that refrain of “If you’re paying a lot of interest on your credit card you might want to tighten your belt a bit and pay off some of the balance instead” was easily (mis)understood as an analogy for austerity. It was absorbed, whereas talk of quantitative easing wasn’t.

Don’t forget, most of us don’t know the difference between the national debt and the deficit so using the terminology of economics went over people’s’ heads.

Communication is key in politics and it’s something that populist politicians tend to be better at (by definition I suppose)

xthetenth
xthetenth
5 years ago

Shocked and amazed that playing like the Nazis gets your face tag-team punched just like the Nazis.

It’s almost like ggers are immune to pattern recognition.

Sinkable John
Sinkable John
5 years ago

@Alan

‘Privilege’ can be a tricky word when advocating for political change.

Definitely. But it’s also the most appropriate, while being fairly easy to comprehend, unless one has egregious amounts of bad faith. Like… MRAs. Meh. There’s no solution to this, is there ?

Communication is key in politics and it’s something that populist politicians tend to be better at (by definition I suppose)

I hear you. We’re currently seeing the frightening results of this, in both your country and mine, and also America.

@Scildfreja

When you put it like that I realize I misinterpreted your post a bit, and it does sound a lot less like a stretch now. I’m reminded that I recently got Tropico 5 for free and didn’t even go far in the tutorial (I really don’t fare well with strategy/management games, but hey, it was a freebie and it does look a lot simpler than Paradox games, which I really want to get into one day because hey, they really sound awesome). I kinda wanna give it another try but I’m still not sure I’m down with the whole “dictatorship simulator” thing – if that even truly is what it is, I admit I haven’t played enough of it to even have a clear idea of that.

Edit : @xthetenth

To be fair most games allow us to get away with pretty much anything with zero consequences. Granted, the games I personally like usually don’t work like that, but it’s still a pattern in itself. Games are permissive and that’s part of their appeal. Now does that excuse that burst of outrage ? Nope. But I’m glad to see more games emphasize that aspect of the whole concept of realism, and I’m REALLY glad for another opportunity to watch gators make asses of themselves.

Scildfreja
Scildfreja
5 years ago

@xthetenth,

It’s almost like ggers are immune to pattern recognition.

GGers and the manosphere in general are a huge ambulatory warning about overfitting a network.

Interestingly, slavery is also something that you can have in Stellaris as well, and it’s also not really an optimal strategy as far as I can tell. Also sort of like real life! Amazing!

@Sinkable John

The Tropico series is pretty much a junta / banana republic simulator, yeah. You can play as someone who honestly wants to give the people what they want and make a utopia, but it’s still a dictatorship.

Stellaris allows you to have a bewildering array of government types. My xenophobic militants have a direct democracy, and I’m trying to get the research done for a cybernetic democracy (in which all government decisions are made through aggregate decision-making by the populace directly). Of course, my neighbors to galactic spinward are getting aggressive, the plutocratic oligarchical spacebirbs. I may have to go kick their nest out of the tree 😐

Vulpius
Vulpius
5 years ago

@xthetenth

I wonder how much these people have been influenced by the fact that most (probably all) WW2 games resort to buffing up Germany, to make up for the fact that they had massive heapings of luck in the early stages of the war, instead of portraying them as the utterly inefficient mess they actually were.

Sinkable John
Sinkable John
5 years ago

@Scildfreja

Sadly I’m a living example of that old sexist trope that says women’s brains can handle multiple tasks at once whereas men’s can’t. By their very nature, these games just overwhelm me, hence being a lot more at ease with RPGs where my own butt is all I have to manage. And EVEN then. I have problems with the 4-character teams in Dragon Age, goddammit (on the other hand, Final Fantasy IX is one of my absolute favorite games ever, because turn-based fights). Hell I’ll even avoid companions in Skyrim (but then that’s also because they can’t even be trusted with making coffee).

On the other hand I absolutely love complex co-op experiences where deep strategies can be built on the fly to deal with situations, with the added variable of human elements and therefore trust. So I really WANT to get into strategy/management games, but I get overwhelmed so, so easily. Boils down to what I do and don’t control : the more there is, the harder it gets.

*sad RTS puppy*

katz
5 years ago

Of course, my neighbors to galactic spinward are getting aggressive, the plutocratic oligarchical spacebirbs. I may have to go kick their nest out of the tree 😐

Like this?

http://i.i.cbsi.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/03/22/Angry_Birds_Space_HD.jpg

leftwingfox
leftwingfox
5 years ago

Scildfreja:

Is there a city/civilization simulator out there where you _aren’t_ an unaccountable dictator? I mean sure, you’re the “mayor” of SimCity, but you don’t get voted out of office if you decide to build an industrial casino hell-scape and unleash a tornado for shits and giggles. Tropico just makes it explicit.

(Not bashing the genre, I still play the hell out of Banished and Cities Skyline)

guy
guy
5 years ago

Hey now, in Tropico there can be elections.

On rare occasions they are even fair!

Slavery in Stellaris is a terrible idea most of the time, but if you’ve got slavery tolerance modifiers (Collectivist or Xenophobe Ethos, the autocratic spiritualist government type) your main populace won’t mind and for some bizarre reason there isn’t actually a mechanic for slave revolts even though there’s mechanics for other revolts. It does piss off other civilizations, though, as does using Purge. I’ve got an ongoing game with collectivist autocratic spiritualists with reduced ethos divergence, and have presently enslaved the former populations of all three Fallen Empires.

I’ve also got a game where I’m playing pacifists and have free migration agreements with everyone willing to accept them, along with legions of cloned genetically-engineered immigrants to handle my ground battles. Somehow one of my close allies got pops with both strong traits, some other positive traits, and no negative traits even though that’s mathematically impossible. I assume they got a lucky random event.

Moocow
5 years ago

I see what you did there ! Joke aside, are there a lot of jobs that require you to go barefoot ? I’m genuinely interested in knowing about this considering barefoot is how I go most of the time, even and especially outside. I mean at this point I can probably stop bullets with my feet. Not that I want to try.

Yeah, it wasn’t the best example considering most jobs require shoes rather than the other way around. I’m fortunate in that I really don’t have too many physical disadvantages in life so I don’t have much to work with.

Flat feel are annoying though. Walking around without correcting soles makes my back hurt, although it was worse when I was a kid and my back was hurting for unknown reasons.

I did have a project in college where we were supposed to give up a piece of technology for a week (fascinating social-design experiment) and I chose to give up shoes. That was a challenge, both physically and psychologically.

On the privilege thing, sadly these people take “privilege” as an insult rather than something they could use in a positive way. I say let’s show ’em this : http://www.robot-hugs.com/privilege/
It won’t change their minds because hey, when has REALITY ever affected them anyway ? But well, still worth doing.

Not just as an insult, but it conflicts with their personal narrative of “life is so unfair for me”. MRAs must always deny that other people have it tougher than them (and that they should be fortunate) in order to appear as the victim. Hence, all the idea about feminism going ‘too far’ or all of the false equivalencies.

pitshade
pitshade
5 years ago

I’ve only played the first two Tropico games, but you could definitely have fair elections in the first one. You lost the game if you lost the election and there was a small amount of cheating that didn’t penalize you and of course you got to see the poll numbers before you decided, but the game didn’t actually force you to be dishonest… 😉

Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)

Speaking of Stormcloaks, I once had a long running Oblivion character who stole everything that wasn’t nailed down, drank every bottle of alcohol she found (while still in the dungeon) and refused to save a single named Blade during the main quest, and yet in Skyrim I couldn’t bring myself to get past the Whiterun quest as a Stormcloak.

That’s because racism and nationalism is gross.

Even my Renegade Shepard or Low Karma Lone Wanderer/Courier couldn’t be racist, yo. I’m not for people telling other people they’re inferior, no matter their race or immortality giving skin conditions. I might play some evil assholes but not complete monsters, which is a humorous exaggeration on my part BTW.

pitshade
pitshade
5 years ago

@ EJ (The Other One)

I still have a ton of minis from that and other games. Only stopped playing due a lack of people to game with. I still think about getting back into painting at some point.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
5 years ago

Fingie is now on Twitter with the handle @fingiesmirk. He’s just figuring things out right now, but he seems excited about it. Be sure to check him out for some deep insights and bewildering statements! 🙂

Sinkable John
Sinkable John
5 years ago

@Handsome Jack

Then again there’s a world of difference between evil and goddamn stupid. Think Andrew Anglin : dude has a whole website dedicated to building his persona as one of the most despised people on the internet. Complete with articles illustrated with screenshots of video game or movie villains.

“Har har har I’m an evil overlord who rules over the dark side of the internet.”

No, Andy, you’re just plain dumb, with an army of stupid.

EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Re Stellaris:

My current game is with a xenophile, pacifist, collectivist nation which uses an overarching polytheistic religion to tie together a bewildering variety of different species. So far we’ve uplifted two species from presentience to intelligence and enlightened four primitive peoples (and are working on the fifth). We’re also standing watch over four planets with stone-age inhabitants and one with iron-age inhabitants, which we’re careful not to reveal ourselves to. We’re the benevolent forebears for this portion of the galaxy. It’s great.

The plan is to hyperspecialise each species so we can do the Star Trek federation thing. Once we get genetic engineering then we can start creating subspecies and then it’ll really get interesting.

Re the game being difficult to get into: I’d say that it’s the easiest of Paradox’s games because of the 4X elements and the much better UI, but that’s still not saying much. It’s the sort of game which assumes that you will be playing it for years, and so asking you to spend a few weeks learning it is no biggie.

It’s kind of a strategy / RPG hybrid in some ways. I’ve been sending my scientists off around the galaxy on weird quests to find bizarre animals, and the signs of the elusive progenitor species. They really develop personalities of their own.

EmpressRat
EmpressRat
5 years ago

That they need to exaggerate and fabricate tells me everything I need to know about the “difficulties” they face.

Scildfreja
Scildfreja
5 years ago

@katz, exactly like that. 😀

@Sinkable John,

So I really WANT to get into strategy/management games, but I get overwhelmed so, so easily. Boils down to what I do and don’t control : the more there is, the harder it gets.

I totally understand that :s (Though interestingly, multitasking is sort of a crap term – brains can’t focus on two things at once, really. Multitasking is all about efficiency in switching from one frame to another, back and forth. Which isn’t a good thing to do really. Better to focus on one thing and do it well!)

Some games are better than others for dealing with the multitasking complexity. I think Civ V is nice for that – it plays very much like a board game. Single-city play is possible, and can be a good strategy at times, which simplifies things further.

Stellaris would be better than most 4X games of its type, but if you want to try something in the spacey’ 4X genre, try Endless Space. It’s distilled the game genre into its purest form, I think – very clean, quite simplified. I think it’s lacking a bit of the heart that other 4X games have as a result of that, but it’s still a solid game and probably one of the easier ones to understand.

@leftwingfox,

Is there a city/civilization simulator out there where you _aren’t_ an unaccountable dictator?

Yup! Stellaris democracies happen every four years or so, and your leader might change. If an election happens and you haven’t fulfilled the election promises of the leader, you have a sad :C You don’t lose, but there are huge advantages to actually doing what the peoples want.

That’s sort of weak sauce, though. Want the real thing, play Crusader Kings 2. It’s a medieval Europe simulator (Well, Europe, Northern Africa, Middle East, Central South Asia, Northern Asia to Mongolia, and India), spanning from 762 to 1452. You can play catholics, orthodox christians, monophysites, miaphysites, hindus, shia, sunni, buddhists, tengri, norse, suomenusko, slavs, and others; you can play basque or sri lankan or somali or swede or any of the cultures from that time. And for government, you can be feudal, or tribal, or a merchant republic.

Republics are ruled by families that elect their leaders; the Venetians are the classical example but there are others. If your family is the ruling family – great, good for you! You get to control the nation! If your leader dies and you don’t win the new election? You lose all control of anything not held directly by your family, and have to wait for the next election to try again.

Did I mention that elections are held when the ruler dies? And that the game is mostly about political intrigue, including forced arranged marriages, assassinations and political backstabbery? And elections are as much about who can bribe the most votes as they are about being the best candidate?

Crusader Kings 2 is deliciously medieval. Republics are like a Shakespearean play of treachery and hubris. It’s marvelous.

numerobis
numerobis
5 years ago

Almost every game where you run a collectivity ends up having you play a dictator, whether benevolent or not. And you lose the game if you share power.

Populous was about genocide, which kind of set the tone for the 4x genre.

In Civilization, you can choose democracy as a type of government, but the legislature is very weak: it can force you to obey peace treaties, but has no power over domestic affairs.

As for SimCity:

Wright also was inspired by reading “The Seventh Sally”, a short story by Stanisław Lem from The Cyberiad, published in the collection The Mind’s I, in which an engineer encounters a deposed tyrant, and creates a miniature city with artificial citizens for the tyrant to oppress.

Railroad Tycoon has you lose if you sell more than half the shares — which is just not how the stock market works!

Merchant Prince was probably the closest to a non-dictatorship that I’ve played. You play your family affairs dictatorially, but your family members can get legit elected (if you bribe the electors/cardinals, and cause an election to be held by assassinating the current doge/pope), and then you run the affairs of the city until your family loses the seat — which doesn’t end the game.

[Scildfreja has a nice ninja drop-kick there; I love that we ended up choosing *different* games about Venice]

dslucia
dslucia
5 years ago

On the subject of Stellaris, I’d be interested in knowing how viable being a Borg-like species would be.

I like spending a good portion of the game growing and advancing in my own little corner of the galaxy, far away from any other AI players, and then suddenly swoop in and assimilate/destroy their empires. Ideally as some sort of synthetic/mechanical species.

That’s not the only way I enjoy playing, but I find that diplomacy in a lot of 4X games tends to be, er, lacking. Of course I don’t have too much experience with them, so it could just be me. I’m better at 1-on-1 rather than civilization-on-civilization stuff.

Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)

Think Andrew Anglin : dude has a whole website dedicated to building his persona as one of the most despised people on the internet. Complete with articles illustrated with screenshots of video game or movie villains.

I feel personally attacked for some reason.

guy
guy
5 years ago

@dslucia

Fanatic Collectivist Materialist. Take Repugnant for points and a diplomacy penalty. Pretty effective.

Sinkable John
Sinkable John
5 years ago

@Handsome Jack

Oh god. I didn’t realize the implication. That… definitely wasn’t my meaning. If anything, and for what it’s worth, I don’t believe Handsome Jack’s been used in screenshots at the Daily Stormer. Them’s too Very Serious People. A guy who names his horse Butt Stallion is WAY out of their league.

@Scildfreja

It’s distilled the game genre into its purest form, I think – very clean, quite simplified.

’tis my problem right there. “Simplified” isn’t the solution because I actually crave complexity, it’s just… well, “being many” – I don’t deal so well with that. If that’s even intelligible. It’s a sort of block, I guess ?
But hey, there’s a time and place for everything, I guess. For example, years ago I wouldn’t even go NEAR a stealth game because I found them too stressful. Now they’re one of my favorite genres ever and I will take the stealth option over any other in any game that leaves me a choice. I STILL feel that stress, but I enjoy it now. I enjoy inflicting it on the poor helpless NPCs I’m sneaking up on. I’m hoping one day I can do the same with horror games, especially since stealth being my specialty and an integral part of a lot of those games, I’m theoretically in my element, but I don’t deal so well with fear either. Okay, to be fair, it absolutely paralyses me. The latest Thief game ? It has a “scary” chapter. Well my then-girlfriend had to download my save and complete it for me. Also she tried to get me into Silent Hill and had to come fetch me from under her bed… after only MENTIONING Silent Hill. Not evening opening the damn box. Just mentioning it. I still hold the record for the number of “nope” she’s heard in one day.

Managing many things is just another kind of stress that I may ONE DAY manage to overcome but it’s one large block and I’m not good with blocks.

On the other hand, I’m interested in No Man’s Sky. Looks like a one-character 4X from what I could gather, and on paper it does sound like something I’d be very, very excited about. And who knows, maybe an introduction to other 4X games where my own self-centric butt isn’t the only one I have to manage.

Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)

Oh god. I didn’t realize the implication. That… definitely wasn’t my meaning. If anything, and for what it’s worth, I don’t believe Handsome Jack’s been used in screenshots at the Daily Stormer. Them’s too Very Serious People. A guy who names his horse Butt Stallion is WAY out of their league.

Oh, haha, no worries, pumpkin, no hard feelings.

comment image

Lucky you~ <3

(I hope that's not too violent a joke for anyone. Got five minutes to edit if it is.)

Sinkable John
Sinkable John
5 years ago

I don’t even get the joke D:
(granted, I haven’t played The Pre-Sequel)

Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)

@Sinkable John

Sorta spoilers

At the beginning of the episode, Handsome Jack appears and tries to strangle Rhys in his own charming way. But he can’t. Because he’s a hologram only Rhys can see because of his ECHO implants. He hand too incorporeal to stranglate. 🙁 🙁 🙁 (Really makes you sad for his plight.)

End sorta spoilers

Scildfreja
Scildfreja
5 years ago

hi5 @numerobis! It’s really interesting how Populous set the tone for so much. If it had been a more peaceful game, would we see strategy games less focused on war and genocide? Or would it just have been less popular? Genocide is a disturbingly common theme in games. I imagine that’s a holdover from board games, where traditionally one side wins by getting rid of the other players’ pieces. Interesting to think about!

@dslucia, you can’t be literal Borg in Stellaris – you can’t be cybernetic or machines. You’re an evolved species. You can build robots and drones and whatnot, though, and they’re very useful. Robot friends for everyone!

@Sinkable John, fair enough. Then, I suggest Civilization V. It’s probably the best strategy game out there right now, has a huge fan base, and it isn’t going to wreck you if you don’t use the “right” play style. There are lots of systems to explore and lots of complexity, but nothing is too big to be unmanageable. You can quite happily play an entire epic-scale campaign from 4000 BC to 2200 AD without a single war; you can focus on building an enriching culture or pursuing knowledge or engaging in diplomacy. Even if you do go to war, the AI will only pursue you to destruction on the higher difficulty levels. It’s turn based so you have time to think about things, and the map is basically like a board game with simple rules for the pieces. Very much a worthwhile game. Also likely to go on sale for deep discounts this summer, since Civ VI was announced for the fall.

Skiriki
Skiriki
5 years ago

IP:

Fingie has a new follower in me!

Moocow
5 years ago

Having a non-dictatorship is going to involve taking control away from the player. But IMO that could be a good thing or make for a really neat game.

Ooh, and I would love to know of any RTS/strategy/build-an-army game that actually focuses on the ethics of your actions (and more than just a quick ‘good/bad ending’ like C&C 3).

Or alternatively, a strategy game where it’s established from the get-go that you’re basically god and that every building and unit you create must obey your command. Then, your choices as an omnipotent being end up shaping the civilization.

Someday I hope some RTS video game will be ballsy enough to have a Hero/Unique unit decide to simply disobey you. Like, you click to tell them to go attack this unit and they’re like “NOPE! That’s going too far; I don’t like your leadership”.

Sinkable John
Sinkable John
5 years ago

@Handsome Jack

I get it now !

@Scildfreja

You had me at “turn-based”. Aaaaaand… I can’t run it.
*goes back to drunk chess against strangers in a bar*
This doesn’t require a decent video card.

guy
guy
5 years ago

There’s already a Stellaris mod to start the game as a synthetic species where you need to build all your pops. Haven’t tried it out yet; it sounds like it would be problematic because the robot pops are a bit expensive and require energy to maintain.

The drawback to building advanced robots is that they start getting smart. Usually they just want equal rights and such, but occasionally it turns out that you have made a terrible error and they want to kill all organic life in the galaxy because it’s there. On the upside, when they’re smart they’re better at research than most organic species.

They also won’t revolt if you’ve previously torn a hole in the universe with jumpdrive tech.

dslucia
dslucia
5 years ago

@Moocow:

Or alternatively, a strategy game where it’s established from the get-go that you’re basically god and that every building and unit you create must obey your command. Then, your choices as an omnipotent being end up shaping the civilization.

How about Black & White? You’re literally a god, and can choose to be benevolent or malevolent, and you get a Creature and temple that will change depending on your choice! I’m not sure how much your actual civilization actually changes, though, it’s been years since I played and I was a small child when I did.

@Scildfreja & guy:

Interesting enough. I was a bit conflicted on whether I should check it out or not yet, what with Crusader Kings II having such a long history of updates and DLC.

Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)

Someday I hope some RTS video game will be ballsy enough to have a Hero/Unique unit decide to simply disobey you. Like, you click to tell them to go attack this unit and they’re like “NOPE! That’s going too far; I don’t like your leadership”.

Ah, man, that would be cool.

Just, like, have a dude go rogue on you and they rally people against you and then you wipe them all out. That would be cool. If there’s one thing I like is games that don’t cater to player based moralities, ya feel me?

katz
5 years ago

All these still sound like dictatorships, only with some complexity of circumstances needed to gain and maintain control. There don’t seem to be many, if any, games that model non-autocratic government by putting meaningful limits on your control while you are in power.

It may be an inherent limitation; I’m not sure how playable a game would be where Congress passes all the actual laws and you only decide whether to veto them or not.

guy
guy
5 years ago

CK2 has your council vote on law changes, with limited capacity for them to initiate votes on their own accord. The Crisis Of The Confederation mod has a Senate system but isn’t updated to Conclave yet, and the 2.4.5 Senate tends to be a bit funky. Characters keep demanding dictators create them then immediately start a vote to disband the Senate.

Yutolia
Yutolia
5 years ago

Wait, so you are ranting about stuff you know isn’t true… because you want to rant and apparently don’t have anything to rant about…

*facepalm

Diptych
Diptych
5 years ago

I’m always a sucker for a Tropico conversation! So, the whole “dictator simulator” aspect is simultaneously overblown and underblown… as it were. It’s perfectly possible to play with completely fair elections, an independent media, a high standard of personal liberty for your populace, etc. On the other hand, you still have total control of your nation’s infrastructure and economy, down to the last farm, and your rule can still last for decades if you convince people to keep voting for you.

Also, the first game was made by PopTop Software, and was light-hearted but not exactly comedy-centric. From the third game onwards, the series has been made by Haemimont Games, who hewed close to the original mechanics but took the writing in a hard wacky-random direction, and… well, it’s pretty bad, and super sexist. They’ve released three titles so far – 4 is pretty much 3 with some upgrades, and 5 took things in an experimental direction with randomly-generated dynasty members ruling across multiple eras that, in my opinion, doesn’t quite work. (2 was an outlier – a pirate-themed game with a plunder-and-slavery-based economy. Bit weird, honestly.)

In short, for a classic, charming 2.5D island builder, get the original with its expansion pack. For a broader, more modern version of same with considerably worse writing, get 4, and its expansion is worth looking at too.

Scildfreja
Scildfreja
5 years ago

@Sinkable John, try Civilization 4, then? It’s older and has many of the same systems. Also goes on sale for pretty deep discounts! Alternatively, you could jump into Stellaris 😮 check out some YouTube let’s plays perhaps, see what you think!

@The Handsomest Jack,

Just, like, have a dude go rogue on you and they rally people against you and then you wipe them all out. That would be cool.

You can get that in CK2 actually! Vassals can openly rebel if they have enough power and want to (for various reasons), and if they don’t have the power they will plot against you. Your loyal vassals are really not all that loyal!

@katz,

All these still sound like dictatorships, only with some complexity of circumstances needed to gain and maintain control. There don’t seem to be many, if any, games that model non-autocratic government by putting meaningful limits on your control while you are in power.

It may be an inherent limitation; I’m not sure how playable a game would be where Congress passes all the actual laws and you only decide whether to veto them or not.

It’s a limitation in two ways. First, it’s a pretty significant AI challenge to make interesting behaviours in that situation. You want human-like behaviour, and that’s not easy.

Second problem is that, well, it turns out that players don’t really like good AI in their games. They want predictable AI that can be gamed – AI as a puzzle to solve. That conflicts with building an AI capable of making good decisions.

There is one game out there that does a good job of modeling a democratic system, made by the guy who made Gratuitous Space Battles. The game is called, you guessed it, Democracy. Democracy 3 in its current incarnation. It’s a very purist sort of “try to fix your broken society by passing legislation, but if it’s unpopular you gon get the boot… or assassinated. Probably the best democratic simulator out there right now, though it doesn’t model a bicameral system or the like – it assumes that there are two parties and that if you win, you hold a majority. Still – great, crunchy game with a steep learning curve and a lot of balls to juggle at once.

I should probably also mention Liberal Crime Squad. It’s not about running a government, so much as it’s about stickin it to the Man, man. Hilarious game.

pitshade
pitshade
5 years ago

Has anyone played the old Majesty game? It is a cross between a city building sim and a RTS. The twist is that while you are recruiting heroes to fight for your kingdom, you can’t actually give them orders. You can place bounties on monsters and enemy structures, but the only thing you have direct command over is the building process.

Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)

You can get that in CK2 actually! Vassals can openly rebel if they have enough power and want to (for various reasons), and if they don’t have the power they will plot against you. Your loyal vassals are really not all that loyal!

http://media2.giphy.com/media/IeLOBZb7ZdQ1G/giphy.gif

Scildfreja
Scildfreja
5 years ago

Oh yes, @Handsomest Jack. That is the perfect gif. CK2 is the sort of game that has you hoping someone will kill your first son so that he doesn’t split the kingdom… and then maybe surreptitiously slipping a bit of gold into the hands of someone to see it happen…

… only to have the assassin double cross you and tip off one of your Dukes, who rallies support for a faction to put your banished uncle on the throne.

It really is Game of Thrones in there, i tell you!

Sinkable John
Sinkable John
5 years ago

I was going to mention Democracy. Obviously, it’s way out of my league, but it seemed interesting. Also as Diptych said regarding Tropico :

well, it’s pretty bad, and super sexist.

I dunno about sexist because I haven’t played enough of it, but I know the assistant-guy’s accent made me cringe so much my gums started to bleed. Probably a good part of why I actually gave up on the game IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TUTORIAL. If sexism is also I thing I should expect, I might just steer clear for now. I deal pretty well with racism and sexism coming from the dumb corners of the internet, but a lot less well when it gets into my games.

Anita Sarkeesian starts her videos with a disclaimer saying that even though a game has sexist crap in it, that doesn’t automatically make it a bad game, and shouldn’t stop us from enjoying it, but to be fair I find it harder and harder. Apparently the constant lowering of my tolerance threshold for bullshit is another effect of my depression, according to my psychologist.

katz
5 years ago

It’s a limitation in two ways. First, it’s a pretty significant AI challenge to make interesting behaviours in that situation. You want human-like behaviour, and that’s not easy.

Second problem is that, well, it turns out that players don’t really like good AI in their games. They want predictable AI that can be gamed – AI as a puzzle to solve. That conflicts with building an AI capable of making good decisions.

And the simple problem that you’re creating a game where the player doesn’t have that much to do, because lots of things are just outside their power.

Has anyone played the old Majesty game? It is a cross between a city building sim and a RTS. The twist is that while you are recruiting heroes to fight for your kingdom, you can’t actually give them orders. You can place bounties on monsters and enemy structures, but the only thing you have direct command over is the building process.

That sounds similar to Dwarf Fortress.

Diptych
Diptych
5 years ago

If sexism is also I thing I should expect, I might just steer clear for now. I deal pretty well with racism and sexism coming from the dumb corners of the internet, but a lot less well when it gets into my games.

Absolutely fair enough. The rampant sexism and racism (did I mention the racism?) doesn’t have any affect on the gameplay*, so I just play with the sound off, and click through dialogue boxes without absorbing their contents in any greater depth than “okay, I gotta export 500 lumber.”

* I say that – the earlier games did have a weird restriction where only men could work some jobs and only women could work other jobs. It was pretty arbitrary – women could be builders but not loggers, and engineers but not professors, for instance. Weird. Anyhow, that’s been dropped as of 5, which is one of its better changes.

Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)

Oh yes, @Handsomest Jack.

I like you.

Nequam
Nequam
5 years ago

@dslucia: Ah, Black and White. Such a great idea. Such a mess to play.