Fellas! I don’t know if you know this, but we’re living in an, um, let me be sure I have this right, a “totalitarian regime dictatorship of forcing social justice and politically correctness.”
That might seem a little bit farfetched, at least to you blue pill people. But I read about this dire new development in the Kotaku In Action subreddit — where Reddit’s GamerGaters mostly hang out — so it must be true.
The post linked to INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF of this terrible SJW totalitarian regime dictatorship: a picture of some dude holding up a parody of a “I need feminism because … ” sign designed to show just what mean, mean meanies those feminists really are.
I’m pretty sure that every red-blooded heterosexual man knows just what he’s getting at here!
I mean, if some hot babe walks by me, and I, as a thoughtful and considerate man, offer her a nice compliment on her appearance by, say, yelling out “hey, titty girl, show me your titties” while making kissy sounds with my mouth, the feminists are all like, “why the hell did you do that, what’s wrong with you, you living piece of crap.”
You see how they get you with the guilt?
BUT, ok, so some other babe walks by, and maybe she’s not really my type, and I think to myself, well, I’m not going to make the mistake of complimenting her on her titties and get yelled at, especially since her titties are nothing to write home about.
But, you know, I don’t want to be rude and simply ignore her, so I yell out “woah, what’s wrong with your saggy-ass titties, you should get a doctor to look at those cuz I sure don’t want to!”
And so maybe I’ve just saved her life from the breast cancer. But do I get any thanks for it? No.
HEY SJW’S GEORGE ORWELL WOULD BE PROUD OF YOU.
NOTE: This post contains
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his manhood depends on him not understanding it.” (apologies to Upton Sinclair)
I’m constantly amazed at the way these twits fight tooth and nail for the “right” to remain entitled assholes. Whenever they’re faced with a choice between slightly modifying their behavior to be more adultlike, or deciding that they live under an oppressive jackbooted regime, they’ll pick the Godwin option every time.
The point at which attraction crosses the line to objectification depends on several things: you don’t have a relationship with the person, you don’t care about the other person’s feelings, and the other person isn’t able to freely voice their opinion on the matter. Objectification is a performance meant to give off signals of dominance and ownership. It’s often based on attraction, but it doesn’t always have to be.
Catcalling, porn, numerical ratings, legislation regulating women’s bodies and medical options: objectification.
Referring to women as broken or defective because they don’t operate like sex vending machines: objectification.
Referring to women as used up and worthless because they’re too old or have had too much sex (whatever that means): objectification.
Using violent terms to describe women and sex acts (bombshell, knockout, gash, bang, slam, smash, “I’d hit that”): objectification.
Referring to women as “the” + noun or body part, as in “the blonde”, “the C cup”, “the view”, “the HB8”: objectification.
Treating her personality like an annoying obstacle that stands in the way of getting access to her vagina: objectification.
Depicting women in advertisements, books, TV shows, movies, and video games as prizes to be won by the male protagonist: objectification.
Treating women as if their best self is their sexual self: objectification.
Quietly thinking to yourself “That woman has nice XXX”: attraction. Keyword: QUIETLY. The minute you voice that thought aloud within the person’s hearing, you are probably making them uncomfortable, taking advantage of the fact that culturally, women are discouraged from pushing back on unwanted compliments, and prioritizing your own feelings over theirs. Even if a woman is at a bar specifically to meet men, she probably does not want to be told she has nice XXX until you’ve established some kind of rapport with her.
It’s not that hard to tell the difference, but like consent, these guys are willfully obtuse about it, because to admit otherwise would be to allow that women are humans, not things. Can’t have that.
Playonwords:
http://i.imgur.com/pdPcBUO.gifv
I am attracted to women yet I don’t feel sympathy for these guys.
Puns!
http://i.imgur.com/totXtIj.jpg
(I love these adorable blue-footed goofballs somethin fierce. It’s a shame that no one can talk about them, since it dissolves into prepubescent giggles almost immediately D: )
Uh huh.
We have a good litmus test for this over in the comic book community called The Hawkeye Initiative.
See a woman in an oddly sexuaized pose? Draw, imagine, or even pose as Hawkeye in it.
Of course, this has expanded to other superheroes as well. I like to drop the question of “Would you be okay with Superman in that costume?” whenever I see dudes try to defend the ridiculousness of skimpy costumes. (C’mon guys, he gets his powers from the sun! That means he shouldn’t be wearing clothing that covers him from the neck down!)
And of course, my favorite one features Spiderman and Deadpool.
@Katz: Thank you for bringing up Carlos.
WARNING: Big Words Ahead. MRAs are recommended to prepare a dictionary and thesaurus.
I think that my esteemed colleagues B. Rising and B.Q.S. Pants are very close to the core problem that MRA’s face in acknowledging reality. I’d suggest that:
1) They don’t actually think that there are any men who are able to be attracted to women without objectifying them. Our more recent troll, Glenn, made this very clear in his disgorgements in the penultimate Sargon thread. He said that every man needs sex, and any man who said he did not was lying. He simply could not accept the thought that there were men who did not think like him.
2) They don’t think that their entitlements are entitlements; instead they believe that they are only behaving naturally and properly, and it is the interlocutor who is being unreasonably intrusive. This is why they so quickly reverse the accusation of being entitled. They can’t believe that they might be behaving improperly, so they interpret the intrusion as entitlement. Not projection, but an incomplete perspective which does not properly examine their own actions.
(On projection – I think that accusation is often used inappropriately, here and elsewhere, by both sides of an argument; I do wish people would stop going to it so quickly. It is a thing, but I don’t think I’ve ever really seen it used properly in discussion. At least not to my failing memory!)
It all breaks down to an inability to examine the self, I think. They can’t admit their faults to themselves. Or, perhaps more likely, they’ve got an inkling of their flaws but examining them is too painful to continue doing so. It makes them miserable and angry; that anger keeps them from continuing their self-examination to the point where they might actually realize what’s going on.
Anyways, sorry for ramble. Just thought those were really good points made by my esteemed colleagues.
Doodlogic in action:
http://38.media.tumblr.com/29e5180cb3233aeec583658152fb4b22/tumblr_nehgdgLjyZ1qb6v6ro3_400.gif
http://38.media.tumblr.com/dad157f951ffc2b2d994dbe5d00fe2da/tumblr_nehgdgLjyZ1qb6v6ro4_400.gif
http://38.media.tumblr.com/9b640c0ac9adfead85e98549f12d6f8b/tumblr_nehgdgLjyZ1qb6v6ro5_400.gif
Is that you, Glenn?
@katz
Exactly! Like how does anyone, let alone the ‘need show’, think that nobody would wanna see the real versions of these 2
http://s3.foreveryoungadult.com.s3.amazonaws.com/_uploads/images/30959/sciencebros__span.png
Do any of you have advice on how to indicate interest in someone without commenting on their looks? And I don’t mean that in a “How am I ever supposed to indicate interest without commenting on appearance???” kind of way but more of a “I’m clueless about conveying interest in general, and I already know comments about appearance are out, so any input is helpful” thing. Nonverbal cues are largely lost on me, so does it boil down to just speaking plainly about my intentions? Or is there a middle ground between that and hoping they’ll notice me batting my eyelashes and making moon-eyes at them?
““I’m clueless about conveying interest in general, and I already know comments about appearance are out, so any input is helpful” thing.”
This is one of those sitations where commenting on appearence *may* be fine provided you *already* have a good friendly and flirty rapport and provided it’s not an inappropiate place to be flirting. And you make the comment vague enough that it doesn’t feel aggressive.
If you don’t want to risk it, just saying something like “hey, want to grab a coffee at [coffeeshop] alone sometime?” has worked on me in the past. 🙂
@Scildfreja
That’s doubly awesome because it’s a white man ‘splaining at women of color. Who is the lady in the middle? I don’t recognize her, but she makes her eyebrows very eloquent.
Right, that’s a good point. I’m aware that there’s certain times where comments on appearance are suitable, but that probably depends a lot on context and is difficult to give broad advice for.
My partner has related to me that when we first started seeing each other, even after we had been at the point of “netflix and chill” she still wasn’t sure that I was interested in her until she explicitly asked me about it, so I’m not always confident that going on a coffee date is going to do the trick. Apparently I’m really good at being aloof.
@dlouwe
What’s wrong with using words? “Would you like to go out on a date sometime?” If this receives a positive response, follow up with specific suggestions as to time/location to test for true (rather than polite only) interest. If you make 2 or 3 suggestions and magically none of them work for the other party, and the other party does not make any suggestions of their own, the “interest” was probably the polite version only and the answer is actually a soft no.
Don’t come out with this out of nowhere, though – start with non-date-related conversation or friendship – and be mindful of cues that tell you that the person you want to date isn’t open to being approached at all. Don’t be Glenn, in other words. People who want to be/wouldn’t mind being approached affect an open posture, they look people in the face, and they might even speak to you first. They aren’t looking down, looking at everything other than you, or look like they are on a mission or on their way to somewhere else or engrossed in some task or errand. If in doubt, just keep yourself to yourself and that will never be the wrong answer.
@dlouwe
I would agree inviting the person to coffee alone (or tea or anything easy to quickly leave if things go poorly, so they feel safer) is a good option. The key is alone; I missed signals from a guy because he invited me to go to a bar with a group of coworkers and because I’m bad at reading signals. We cleared it up later, though, when he straight up asked me directly.
@dlouwe
It really depends on a lot of things. What someone might consider flattering another would consider uncomfortable.
Generally, compliment on things we can control (since you’re complimenting their choice of style rather than their body parts) but even then you have to watch out for social cues. For example, if someone is dressed in a way that says “please don’t notice me”, they they probably won’t enjoy being told that their attire is pretty.
If you wanna communicate interest. Compliments on hobbies or personality traits are a lot better than compliments on physical appearance early on.
Once you know the person enough, it’s far more likely to be ok to compliment them on their looks.
One slam dunk: If they’re wearing a fandom thing, you pretty much can’t go wrong with “OMG, I love that show/movie/game/book!”
Y’all need to see the video of this, because it gets better with the tone and the way dudebro gets shut down.
“My partner has related to me that when we first started seeing each other, even after we had been at the point of “netflix and chill” she still wasn’t sure that I was interested in her until she explicitly asked me about it, so I’m not always confident that going on a coffee date is going to do the trick. Apparently I’m really good at being aloof.”
Lol, be less aloof? ;p
Is this scientific curiosity or are you and your partner open/poly/whatever? Because if it’s the latter then isn’t there the option of letting your partner do all the hard work? ;p
Yeah a coffee date can be vague, but I do think that most people would get the idea once you *specifically* asked to go alone. Other than that I’ve always been “asked out” by being kissed. Which is a hella risky move.
http://aceofgeeks.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Dark-Vader.jpg
@katz
Oooh yes!
In fact, not just for hobbies, but unique articles of clothing usually lead to interesting stories. The only way that can go wrong is if you’re complimenting say… a pendant hanging between someone’s breasts, because it’s pretty obvious as to what’s really being complimented.
Such as Basil Fawlty in this episode of Fawlty Towers:
(Skip to 15:55 in the video to see what I’m talking about)
@PoM
Nothing wrong with using words at all, I’m just bad at figuring out what words are appropriate at what times. Your advice is particularly helpful, thank you!
@kupo, et al.
Could inviting someone to group things be useful as a low-pressure way to build up rapport and/or gauge interest before dropping the “Hey wanna date?” Or is it better to be clear about intent earlier on?
@mrex
I’d love to! Though first I gotta figure out how. ;p
Yeah, we’re non-monogamous. And by “hard work” do you mean getting me dates? If so, definitely not! I gotta be responsible for my own social life.
Also thanks everyone for your replies! I know that a lot of this stuff is just kinda trial and error and figuring it out through experience, but I can get really anxious about navigating less-than-familiar social interactions, and hearing various viewpoints helps with that.
Absolutely. Plus it gives you a chance to ask them about their interests so you will be able to prepare a mental list of talking points when on the actual date.
Seconding the group activity idea. That’s a good way to get to know someone and build up a shared history, so you automatically have something to talk about on your first date.
The problem with manosphere dudes is that, because they’re only interested in women for sex, it’s literally the only thing they know how to compliment women on. They don’t care about hobbies, jobs, school, travel, life backstory, or our take on current events. I’m sure even the act of telling a woman she’s hot or beautiful makes them grit their teeth. Most of them would probably be happier if they didn’t actually have to talk to women, and could just point at them instead, like a kid at a candy counter.
That’s why they get so explosively angry when someone proposes to remove the only tool they have for approaching women. “How else are we supposed to get laid?!?” Which is a less blunt way of saying “If I’m not allowed to appraise her body, then I have absolutely nothing else to say to her.” (But I’m such a Nice Guy!)
The corollary: because women exist entirely to please them, they also think women universally love being told they’re pretty, and there’s something wrong with women who don’t get warm fuzzies when total strangers assess their bangability.