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#gamergate antifeminism antifeminist women evil SJWs irony alert literal nazis misandry misogyny MRA post contains jokes YouTube

Sargon of Akkad launches petition to save free speech by censoring SJW professors

Remain alert! Even white dude professors can be secret SJWs
Remain alert! Even white dude professors can be secret SJWs

When a college feminist decided, one cold night in 2014, to burn her personal copy of pseudofeminist Christina Hoff Sommers’ book The War Against Boys, the internet’s antifeminists responded as if Hitler himself had risen from the grave.

“Universities bring book-burning back, one page at a time,” declared a blogger at TheRebelMedia. After an extended comparison with the infamous book burning campaigns of the literal Nazis, he declared that “[t]he burning of Hoff Sommers’ book is a striking visual synecdoche for the malaise afflicting free expression across not only North American college campuses.” In a featured article, A Voice for Men described the burning as a “disturbing” example of “misandry in academia.”

On the Men’s Rights subreddit, meanwhile, one angry dude declared that

If you’re burning a book, you’re basically admitting to being not just a bigot, but one who doesn’t even have enough confidence in the strength of their own views to believe that they can stand up for themselves without needing to silence and censor those that oppose them.

If we set aside the fact that, unlike the Nazis, who confiscated the books they burned, a person burning their own copy of a book that is readily available to others is not actually censoring anything, he’s got a point.

So it’s interesting to see how many of the Internet’s antifeminsts and Anti-Social-Justice-Warrior-Warriors are embracing a proposal from one of their own to literally censor all academics who teach stuff they don’t like.

On Change.org, professional feminism-hater Carl Benjamin, known on YouTube as Sargon of Akkad, has started a petition demanding that “UNIVERSITIES” — presumably, every single one of them — immediately “Suspend Social Justice Courses” because he thinks that “social justice” professors are up to no good.

In vague but melodramatic language Benjamin proclaims that

Social justice has become scientifically illiterate, logically unsound, deeply bigoted and openly supremacist.

He doesn’t specify exactly what kind of supremacism he’s complaining about here; presumably not white.

Nor does he ever define exactly what courses count as “social justice courses.” There aren’t any departments of Social Justice that I’m aware of. [EDIT: Oops! Turns out there are.] Does Benjamin mean a tiny handful of, say, women’s studies courses taught by radical feminists? Or does he hope (at least in his wildest dreams) to take down the humanities and social sciences as a whole?

Social justice professors are indoctrinating young people into a pseudoscientific cult behind closed doors that is doing damage to their health, education and future.

Well, technically, I guess, virtually all college courses are taught “behind closed doors,” since the doors of lecture halls generally do get closed before class begins. Technically, I’m writing this post behind closed doors, because I don’t leave the doors of my apartment wide open. (People might wander in; the cats might wander out.) I suspect that Benjamin himself wrote up his petition behind closed doors!

Benjamin goes on to declare that

[s]ocial justice … has become another ideology fit only to pave the road to Hell, so it is time to turn around and choose another path that is concerned with reason, science and improving the lives of every human.

If only some evil Social Justice English professor has indoctrinated Benjamin in the devilish art of writing without resorting to hackneyed cliches.

But that’s pretty much all there is to Benjamin’s petition. Somehow, thought, the vagueness of Benjamin’s plan hasn’t stopped 9,878 people — so far — from signing the petition.

It is, however, possible that some of the signers are a little bit confused as to what exactly they’re signing.

Indeed, the top two most-liked comments on the petition, for example, were written by people who seem to think that Benjamin’s proposal to peremptorily censor all college courses that he thinks are excessively social-justicey is, somehow, a defense of free speech?

TOP COMMENTS What I see in universities in the US and many other countries is a totalitarian government in the making. Samuel Braun, Germany19 hours ago 144 Report Free speech has no limits. Santiago Uscocovich, Clarksville, ARBenjamin has posted a video in which he explains his crusade in a little more detail. It’s possible that somewhere in it he answers the question of how exactly his plan to drive all professors he doesn’t like from all the college campuses in the world is actually a crusade for free speech.

Here’s the video in question:

Oops! Wrong video. Let me try again:

Huh. I don’t think that was it either.

No, that’s clearly not it.

Ok, ok. I found the real one here.

But it’s 40 minutes long. I sampled the first 2 seconds, and that was about all I could bring myself to watch. So I guess I’ll just have to resign myself to a life of servitude under the jackboots of the Social Justice warlords. Still, that’s a far better option than actually watching a Sargon of Akkad video all the way through.

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Scildfreja
Scildfreja
4 years ago

Nationalism is just racism in a tailored suit. Dig into a vocal nationalist and you find a seething froth of racism and xenophobia.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

And what’s your excuse for forgetting that the entire Republican party is just as racist as Trump?

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

As I read that I was bursting out laughing, why didn’t I think of him? I think he’s more of a nationalist than a racist, but that’s probably him just hiding that from the public.

“Guys, I think that this cabinet is more made of wood than it is a piece of furniture.”

These are not mutually exclusive categories.

I respectfully disagree, I’m simply following the advice, or at least trying to, of a certain EJ (The Other One) to ask for people’s consent before talking about topics they may not have wanted to. So, on another thread would be a better place.

The internet has this marvellous feature called “not posting.” I use it quite a lot. If you genuinely feel that a discussion on a particular matter would be unwelcome, you can use that feature.

On the other hand, some of us have indicated by their behaviour that they are entirely consenting on the matter at the moment, and I know them well enough to know that they can handle themselves, so I believe that provided you stick to the topic you have my blessing. For what that’s worth, anyway.

(BTW, here “the topic” doesn’t generally mean “what the topic used to be, X pages ago.” The topic currently seems to have drifted to matters of privilege, which is always a matter worth discussing. However, please be aware that Scented Fucking Hard Chairs and Policy Of Madness are both very, very knowledgeable on the matter. If you would not step to me on matters of astrophysics, you would be wise to adopt the same mindset with them.)

Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)
Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)
4 years ago

Probably because I think he more nationalist than racist.

HAHAHAHA.

White nationalist, yeah, it’s all the same.

Richard Via
Richard Via
4 years ago

@EJ I will take your advice to heart and not poke the bear. I would like them to discuss varying levels of privilege with them. The analogy of weight that was mentioned, I liked that. By not having privilege in society you have more weight against you, making it more and more difficult to achieve the same things in life. I’d kind of like to quantify that somehow, either by measuring income, education, happiness level, ect. That sure would be interesting to see.

Dalillama
4 years ago

@ Paradoxy

One is fucking harmless, and only references the bad things that white people have done to black people,

Not even that, actually. ‘Whip-cracker’ is a false etymology. The term was originally self-applied by and to whites in the Southeast during the early colonial period, and meant something akin to ‘braggart’, but without derogatory overtones. Crack, in some dialects (esp. in Ireland), means conversation, shooting the breeze, big talk, etc., and the ‘Florida Crackers’ and ‘Georgia Crackers’ were famous for their tall tales and florid boasts (A tradition that survived in that area for centuries, and traces of which remain).

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
4 years ago

Now Richard is pretending that racism is only real if someone outright states that they hate anyone who isn’t white.

Of course he is.

isidore13
isidore13
4 years ago

Richard, I have to ask, what is the practical difference between nationalism and racism, in your opinion?

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

@Richard Via:

The way you phrase that request is, “Please Policy Of Madness, please SHFC, please Scildfreja, would you give me some links and book recommendations so I can educate myself?”

There is a myth that people will always be willing to drop everything to explain a concept to someone. Puzzling, people seem to be more willing to believe this myth when they’ve acted in a hostile or impolite fashion, or when they’ve indicated that they plan to act antagonistically during this explanation. I call it a myth because it isn’t true: people only have a certain amount of time in their day, and if they choose to give you links to sources rather than take the time and energy to write, then that isn’t because you’ve won any sort of contest.

Humility always helps, especially when talking to people who a) know more than you, and b) you have antagonised.

On the other hand, this cuts both ways. While WWTH and isidore13 are taking the mick out of you entirely justifiably, you are not required to respond if you do not wish to and we will not think worse of you if take this choice.

Paradoxical Intention - Resident Cheeseburger Slut

Hello again, Richard! I see that my previous post has gone unnoticed, so perhaps you’ll maybe take a look back and answer some of the questions I had for you? I know the post was long, so I did bold the specific questions so you can see them easier.

Richard Via | May 3, 2016 at 8:01 am
Thank you, you’ve all given me a lot to think about. To answer one question, I think it’s good to learn about oppression as long as it’s in context of overcoming that oppression and ways to put everyone on a more equal footing.

Why should it be that way though? We have to walk before we can run, and thus we have to learn about what oppression is and why it happens before we can run off to go “overcome” that oppression. Sending people off willy-nilly to go fight and “overcome” something that they don’t fully understand only leads to more problems.

Not to mention, we can only really “overcome” if those who are doing the oppressing are willing to help, and that’s always a huge hurdle.

I think the notion of privilege is genuine, so long as it isn’t a crutch for someone to use. Life certianly isn’t equal for everyone, race, sex, gender, income all come with varying levels of privilege. For example, being born in America immediately affords you citizenship in a first world nation.

A first-world nation that still has its fair share of problems with other forms of oppression.

This kind of smacks of the Oppression Olympics argument, in that [oppressed group] shouldn’t talk about [thing that bothers them], because [oppressed group] people have it worse in [“third-world” country].

For instance, when I talk to some men about catcalling, I get told that I should shut up about it because girls are being murdered for going to school in THE MIDDLE EAST (and yes, they say it like the middle east is one monolith, instead of a group of countries with their own laws and such).

It’s like seeing two abused people, one physically abused, and one mentally abused, and telling one of them to shut up because the other has bruises “where it counts”.

Both these situations are horrible, and we’re very capable of caring about them both, even if we’re only discussing the “lesser” of the two evils at one time.

Yes, I have certain privileges (being born in America, and being white), but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t talk about problems I face.

No one is using oppression or privilege as a “crutch”, and I mean no offense by this, but: You’re essentially in too good of a position to look down your nose at other people for talking about their oppression.

One thing that I seemed to take particular discomfort with was seeing protest from groups of social justice activist against people who spoke ideas at colleges that were deemed sexist or racist. People should be able to agree or disagree with any speaker, but the impact of the presence of these people seemed overdramatic.

One particular way that many anti-SJ people like to attempt to discredit those who speak against them is by hand-waving them away as “over-dramatic”, or otherwise trying to discredit their legitimate concerns as “hysteria” (this especially happens when women are involved). Not calling you out and saying you’re a bad person here, just that this is a common thing people do to discredit other people instead of discrediting their ideas.

Scildfreja said it best, however. These people don’t want to be challenged, they want to say their piece and not be questioned. They want a place, on a public campus, where they can bully others and not be challenged.

And you also said it: People have the right to protest if they don’t agree with a speaker, and as Scildfreja said (yet again): These people aren’t going to allow them to speak during their engagement. Would you not protest if someone you thought had toxic beliefs got a speaking engagement at your local college or university, and you knew they wouldn’t let you speak in protest of them?

Freedom of speech works both ways, and people also have Freedom of Assembly.

Take Christina Hoff Sommers, sure many take offense to her feminist positions. I actually like to listen to her, I wouldn’t want to be called a misogynist for wanting to listen to her. That’s a bit unfair don’t you think?

You’re not a misogynist for liking to listen to her. I know there has to be at least a few people who listen to her if only to form their own opinions or to rebut her ideas, but you may be a misogynist if you believe some of the misogynistic things she says or agrees with.

That’s the issue here. I’m sure even I can find something I can agree with CHS on, but I still don’t agree with her brand of “feminism”, mostly because it’s counter-intuitive and destructive to other feminists who are actually fighting for equality instead of reassuring men that they’re not evil monsters that the straw feminists they made up tell them they are.

Richard Via | May 3, 2016 at 10:05 am
I follow black issues and crime in black communities closely.

That still doesn’t give you, a white man, any room to discuss “black issues”. Feel free to follow them as closely as you like, but from one white person to another: It’s not our place to say anything. This isn’t our discussion.

We can, and should, listen to what black people are saying, and repeat what we hear to other white people so they can get the message too, but it’s not our place to discuss it amongst ourselves. We cannot possibly understand what it’s like to “live while black”. We don’t have that lived experience, and we never will.

Dalillama | May 3, 2016 at 2:41 pm
Not even that, actually. ‘Whip-cracker’ is a false etymology. […]

Huh, I didn’t know that! Thanks for correcting me! 😀

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
4 years ago

EJ,
Funny how that myth about people being willing and able to drop everything to educate someone is most often believed about women, or on the internet, people assumed to be women because they’re in a pro-feminist space and haven’t said they aren’t a woman.

PI,
The silliest thing about the assumption that catcalling is a first world problem only is that women in countries that aren’t first world actually complain about street harassment too. A friend from college was from Karachi, Pakistan and one of the first things we bonded over was street harassment. Another thing we discussed often was the expectation that women are supposed to be very thin. Another so-called first world problem that occurs outside of the first.

It’s also very racist and colonialist to assume that everyone in Africa, Asia, and the Middle East is poor, uneducated, and brutally oppressed. That friend of mine from Pakistan is from a well off and highly educated family. Although she experiences types of misogyny that I don’t and experiences racism and xenophobia here in the states that white Americans don’t, she is in many ways more privileged than lower income and less educated Americans are.

tl;dr privilege and oppression are complicated and people don’t always fall into one group or the other. A concept that seems to be lost on people like Richard.

Paradoxical Intention - Resident Cheeseburger Slut

@WWTH: Absolutely. I thought about mentioning that myself, actually, but I couldn’t put it in a way I liked. You did a much better job of it than my sorry attempt.

Privilege and oppression aren’t zero-sum games, black and white, or just ones and zeroes. A cishet white dude can be oppressed in certain ways, and a person of color who isn’t cishet can still have privilege in certain ways.

That doesn’t mean that the oppression or privilege is suddenly moot because one or the other is happening simultaneously, and it’s still important to discuss them both and how they relate to one another.

Someone did mention that cishet white dudes to tend to cling to the oppression of being lower-class economically because it’s the only thing they know. I think it was WWTH.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

There is a myth that people will always be willing to drop everything to explain a concept to someone.

Yeah, after I wrote that I pretty much had to go back to work and do some important shit for a change. I don’t necessarily have 24/7 internet access to educamate people like Richard.

I don’t think we’d find many people other than some white supremist KKK members hold those values. Even those groups have been cornered to a fringe minority of people.

Read some of the articles on this site. David documents this shit every day. Every day. There is a lot of overlap between racism and misogyny, which means that this site has experienced some mission creep. I’m not personally complaining, because it’s actually not helpful to put the various axes of privilege/disadvantage into individual silos and pretend they are not related in some way.

I mean, fuck, just yesterday there was a new article on JudgyBitch, who usually makes the site with her misogyny, but she basically exploded into a pile of racist bile on Twitter over the past week. And that’s just the overt racism. You literally need go no further than the front page to see that.

You really have to have your head faaaaaaaaaaaar up your ass to think that racism is basically solved in the United States and the KKK is a quaint little holdover from the bad ol’ days. The bad ol’ days are still here.

I should have stated where topics often have 50/50 of near that of a split disagreement, you can often find things the two agree on.

Why don’t you name some of those topics for me, in a social justice context, since that’s what we’re talking about, after all. I can’t wait to see where you believe there is a 50/50 split, where intelligent and educated people of good faith can just disagree. (hint: there’s a reason why it’s called social justice)

The analogy of weight that was mentioned, I liked that. By not having privilege in society you have more weight against you, making it more and more difficult to achieve the same things in life. I’d kind of like to quantify that somehow, either by measuring income, education, happiness level, ect.

Why? Why do you think it would be useful to quantify oppression? The only application of that that comes to my mind is to play Oppression Olympics.

That sure would be interesting to see.

Oh, nm, I see that your reasoning is that you think it would be fun.

I understand what privilege is

Nope, you still clearly don’t.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
4 years ago

In reply to @Imaginary Petal

And what’s your excuse for forgetting that the entire Republican party is just as racist as Trump?

I’m a registered Republican in that weird middle ground of fiscally conservative/socially liberal. As such, I take offense to this assertion-or at least a part of me does. However, it’s true of enough Republicans to be a safe assumption of the vast majority of them. The best comparison I can think of (and I really wish this wasn’t the case) is to men and rape: not all men are rapists, but enough of them are to make women generally more suspicious of the whole group.
For those curious as to why I’m a fisc-con/soclib Republican, I’m actually probably more of an Independent, but I register and vote GOP in the (admittedly slim) hopes that enlightened Republicans will eventually take party leadership, hear my voice and those of other GOP moderates, and try to bring the party back to its best, most accepting days.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
4 years ago

Argh, the edit window mammoth got me! This sentence

However, it’s true of enough Republicans to be a safe assumption of the vast majority of them.

should read “However, I recognize (and abhor-the world really sucks some days, especially when it comes to things like this, which makes places like this site so important) that it’s true of enough Republicans to be a safe assumption of the vast majority of them.”

katz
4 years ago

I’m gone for like 24 hours and Pandapool turns into Handsome Jack!

And also joins Sevenofmine in the group of people whose comments I will always hear in their characters’ voices.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

@Nikki

I’m of the opinion that the fiscal part can’t be fully separated from the social part. Fiscal decisions have real life social consequences, and the fiscal policies of the Republican party are, just like their social policies, racist and overall terrible for everybody (but mostly women and minorities).

The comparison between men/rapists and Republican/racists is not very helpful. The assumption that any man you meet could be a rapist is a form of worst case scenario safety precation, since it’s been well established that most men are not rapists. A Republican non-racist, by contrast, is a unicorn.

I also can’t have any sympathy for the idea of trying to change the GOP from within. It’s a group of the worst people in the world, ffs. It’s time to get out.

Sorry. :/

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

I’m of the opinion that the fiscal part can’t be fully separated from the social part. Fiscal decisions have real life social consequences, and the fiscal policies of the Republican party are, just like their social policies, racist and overall terrible for everybody (but mostly women and minorities).

Accurate.

The Republican party sells the story that there is a ton of waste in government and we can run a lean, cheap country if we just get rid of it.

The reality is that most of the fat that existed was trimmed in the 90s (by Clinton). A lot of meat was trimmed with it, and you now have agencies like the FDA having to depend upon the industry they regulate to test their products and report in on their findings. The FDA just doesn’t have the resources anymore to do that testing themselves. They operate more or less on the honor system now. Most regulatory agencies on the federal level have the same problem. State and local are variable, but I have yet to meet an agency that has real waste left to cut.

These regulatory agencies operate to protect the rank and file public from the actions of greedy rich people and corporations. And now they can’t do that effectively! I’m not sure how this can be reconciled with social liberalism. That’s not even getting into changing entitlement programs to CDBGs and how that empowers states to operate federal programs in an overtly racist manner, or telling stories about welfare queens and people buying lobster with SNAP, or ensuring that a single drug conviction blocks a young person off from higher education.

Richard Via
Richard Via
4 years ago

men and rape: not all men are rapists, but enough of them are to make women generally more suspicious of the whole group.

I don’t like that kind of rhetoric, sounds too much like, not all Muslims are terrorist, but enough of them are to make us generally more suspicious of the whole group. I can’t stand that Islamiphobic trash that comes out of people like Trump.

Mentioned before, but I think I should restate I don’t believe nationalism is the same as racism, they are two different things. One can usually be found with the other.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ scildfreja

Nationalism is just racism in a tailored suit.

I’m not sure thats necassarily always the case. Over here we have the Scottish Nationalist Party and they’re very non racist.

The British Nationalist Party on the other hand…..

mockingbird
mockingbird
4 years ago

The reality is that most of the fat that existed was trimmed in the 90s (by Clinton). A lot of meat was trimmed with it, and you now have agencies like the FDA having to depend upon the industry they regulate to test their products and report in on their findings. The FDA just doesn’t have the resources anymore to do that testing themselves. They operate more or less on the honor system now. Most regulatory agencies on the federal level have the same problem. State and local are variable, but I have yet to meet an agency that has real waste left to cut.

It might be more accurate to say that “trimming the fat” led to huge chunks of muscle being cut while miles of adipose were left untouched.

Even putting aside the intentional gutting of the enforcement abilities of regulatory agencies and the pet-project boondoggles allowed to flourish, the “use it or lose it” nature of many budgetary determinants is…problematic at best.

mockingbird
mockingbird
4 years ago

Too late to ETA: I’ve seen so much asinine waste when budget managers have gone on end of fiscal year spending sprees for justified rubbish because they knew that they’d need the same (or were asking for increased) funds for a big project or two in the coming year.

ETA: I mean, I understand the impetus for such policies – to ensure that unneeded programs don’t continue to get a level of funding simply because they’ve always had that level of funding – but the world would be a better place if sufficient oversight + trust in the competence of employees could = actual, non-raidable rainy day funds being a common practice.

Richard Via
Richard Via
4 years ago

tl;dr privilege and oppression are complicated and people don’t always fall into one group or the other. A concept that seems to be lost on people like Richard.

Funny enough, I don’t think it is. Different people in different socioeconomic status can share privileges with people in a different one. They are more privileged, problems matter for them, just less.

My problems matter, I’m just in a better position to change them, whereas someone, dealing with multiple different sets of oppression may not be able to change their status so easily.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

My problems matter, I’m just in a better position to change them, whereas someone, dealing with multiple different sets of oppression may not be able to change their status so easily.

Your problems matter, and it’s not actually bad that you have privilege. Ideally, all the privileges you have would be shared by everyone.

What is bad is when you don’t fucking notice this, and when you don’t fucking do anything about it. When you navel-gaze at whatever minor inconvenience you have experienced today and inflate it in your rhetoric and your actions to be more than it is.

For instance:

I don’t like that kind of rhetoric, sounds too much like, not all Muslims are terrorist, but enough of them are to make us generally more suspicious of the whole group. I can’t stand that Islamiphobic trash that comes out of people like Trump.

Around 10% of men in the United States are rapists. 3% – 5% of them are serial rapists, with an average of six victims each. If 10% of Muslims in the United States were terrorists, we would have a real cause to be cautious around all Muslims. If 5% of Muslims in the United States were serial terrorists, with an average of six terrorist acts each, that would be a fucking emergency and people would act like it was. People would be asking what the fuck it is about Islam that tells people that it’s okay to be a terrorist.

But the numbers just don’t warrant that kind of panic. For every Muslim terrorist, there are hundreds of thousands of Muslims who are not. Rapists are not one in 500,000. Rapists are 1 in 10. A woman walking down the street and passing 100 people has likely passed 5 rapists. She has passed 0 terrorists. If 100% of those people were Muslim, she has still passed 0 terrorists.

Nevertheless! You have never been placed on a no-fly list because you are a man. You have never been stopped and hassled by the cops because you have a 10% chance of being a fucking rapist. All you experience is a tiny bit of sad feels at knowing that women are viewing you with healthy caution. The number of actual, objective problems you face for sharing a gender with rapists is effectively zero, even though you have an exponentially higher probability of being a rapist than any Muslim has of being a terrorist.

Your equation is bullshit, and your reasoning is bullshit. The only way we could think of them as remotely equivalent is if we inflate your tiny little inconvenience into the worst possible thing that exists. Maybe to you it is the worst possible thing, but in objective terms it’s not even a papercut. Shut the fuck up about your feels and start caring about the fact that 10% of men are fucking rapists.

That’s what makes you a problem. Not your privilege per se, but the fact that your privilege means you don’t have to care and you choose to factually not care.

Richard Via
Richard Via
4 years ago

1 in 10 seems a bit high. I found a study supporting that conducted in some Asian countries. Rape is definitely a big problem over there. In America I can’t really find a comparable study. The one I did find stated rapes occur every 107 seconds. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 300,000. Source-RAINN I don’t know if that’s just reported rapes or estimates. If they don’t factor that in that’s puts the number far higher, over one million. Over a lifetime, with current population increases, at least the US I can’t find any study supporting a 1 in 10 number. Which study is that 1 in 10 number coming from? Im not saying I don’t believe you, just want to read the study.

I’m not trying to lessen anything here, any amount of rape and sexual assault is too much. Even if the number was 1 in 100 it’s still to high, this isn’t about guilt, this isn’t about making men feel better. This issue is important to me, someone very close to me dealt with this at a young age.

I one day want to do more to help people like my friend and the countless other people’s lives who have been afflicted with sometime so awful. For now all I can do is educate myself.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

I don’t like that kind of rhetoric, sounds too much like, not all Muslims are terrorist, but enough of them are to make us generally more suspicious of the whole group.

This followed by

Rape is definitely a big problem over there.

Yeah, but you really care about these issues and totally aren’t here to inject harmful, damaging statements into a conversation you were never invited into with people who are actually affected by the “fun” topics of debate on a daily basis.

Fuck you.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

Yeah, rape is totally only a problem in those other countries.

-_-

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
4 years ago

I see that I’m in an unworkable position-to be honest, I think I’ve seen it for a while but put it aside because I wasn’t ready to face it. Now I have to figure out what my next step is. My first reaction is to go Independent because I don’t really see myself fitting in with either Democrats or Republicans (at least not the way the parties are now-they’re both going too far to their respective extremes), but I’m not sure of it since Independents have so little influence in the current system. We need to make the system more open to third parties, but for now which do you guys think would be the better pick: Democrat or Independent?

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

@Nikki

If by Independent you mean somewhere between the two major parties, then definitely Democrat. I don’t really know what you could possibly mean by Democrats going “too far to the extreme”. Are you suggesting that the Democratic party is on the extreme left somehow? And if so, WUT?

Dalillama
4 years ago

@Nikki

I’m a registered Republican in that weird middle ground of fiscally conservative/socially liberal. As such, I take offense to this assertion-or at least a part of me does

Too bad for you then, because ‘fiscal conservatism’ is built on the same racism and general bigotry as social conservatism, and the two cannot be separated. Fiscal conservatism is also catastrophic on an economic level.

@Alan
Nationalist movements attract fascists like shit attracts flies. Movements by actual oppressed peoples (e.g. Irish Republicans, Zapatistas, Rojavans etc.) often have a far-left wing basis, but even they have to be careful; see De Valera and the Irish constitution for what happens when you’re not.

weirwoodtreehugger
4 years ago

I’m of the opinion that the fiscal part can’t be fully separated from the social part. Fiscal decisions have real life social consequences, and the fiscal policies of the Republican party are, just like their social policies, racist and overall terrible for everybody (but mostly women and minorities).

Agreed. Also, in my version of socially liberal, class oppression is included. The Republican theories of how to deal with poverty are predicated on the idea that poor people are poor because they’re lazy and coddled and just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. That idea is bigoted and untrue.

My problems matter, I’m just in a better position to change them, whereas someone, dealing with multiple different sets of oppression may not be able to change their status so easily.

This statement doesn’t really help your case that I’m wrong about you having no concept of intersectionality, oppression, or privilege. Saying “you’re privileged” is not the same as saying “your life is perfect” or “you deserve no empathy for personal problems.”

Your problems matter to you and that’s fine. Your problems presumably matter to the people who care about you. That’s also fine. Your personal problems are not oppression and not a political problem though. That’s the difference. It’s not that marginalized people are less equipped to work through problems, it’s that they experience non-oppressive personal problems of the kind that everyone has plus the problems resulting from oppression.

I’m not trying to lessen anything here, any amount of rape and sexual assault is too much. Even if the number was 1 in 100 it’s still to high, this isn’t about guilt, this isn’t about making men feel better. This issue is important to me, someone very close to me dealt with this at a young age.

I one day want to do more to help people like my friend and the countless other people’s lives who have been afflicted with sometime so awful. For now all I can do is educate myself.

If you actually want to help (and I personally doubt you do) your friend and other rape victims, you might want to stop responding to statements like this

men and rape: not all men are rapists, but enough of them are to make women generally more suspicious of the whole group.

With statements like this

I don’t like that kind of rhetoric, sounds too much like, not all Muslims are terrorist, but enough of them are to make us generally more suspicious of the whole group. I can’t stand that Islamiphobic trash that comes out of people like Trump.

Why do rape survivors and their allies need to tiptoe around what you “don’t like.” Seriously. Who gives a shit what you like? Prioritizing your own feelings over the way women deal with the rape that’s always looming over our lives is piss poor allyship.

POM already did the statistical rundown about why that’s a false equivalence.

There’s another reason it’s a false equivalence. You’re comparing a marginalized group (women) fearing that members of a dominant group (men) will harm them with a dominant group (white, usually Christian people) whipping up fear among other members of the dominant group in order to justify oppressing a marginalized group (Muslims).

Yeah, keep telling me you have the slightest grasp of privilege and oppression. It’s hilarious!

weirwoodtreehugger
4 years ago

Nikki,

Not trying to dogpile here, apologies if all the replies are too much at the moment but

I don’t really see myself fitting in with either Democrats or Republicans (at least not the way the parties are now-they’re both going too far to their respective extremes)

Can you provide examples of extremism by the Democrats on fiscal issues? Because I hear people say stuff like this a lot, but no one can ever seem to show that the Democratic party is an extreme left party. Probably because they’re not.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
4 years ago

Blarg, I don’t know how to say any of this! I’m confusing myself!
I agree much more with Democrats than Republicans, but I worry about government waste and I don’t even know how much of it’s a legitimate concern and how much is just a postRepublican hangover.
I also think that both parties and the US political system as a whole are becoming too partisan-Republicans are going much farther right and attracting metric shit-tons of bigots in the process, Democrats are going farther left, and any common ground that may have once existed between the parties has eroded and there’s likely no way we can ever get it back. At least it seems like Democrats are going further left-maybe that’s just an illusion caused by how far right the current Republicans are going.
And I’m afraid of going from one pole to the other all at once-I’m thinking of easing into it by going to Independent at first and then to Democrat later, which is what my cousin did.
Does any of this make sense? Can you guys provide any help?
If at any point I seem to be pushing back too much, I apologize now and in advance and retrospect. Trying to figure all this out is a hard process and will take some time. I may get defensive at times during the process, but I genuinely appreciate all the answers I’m getting.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

Democrats are going farther left

^Not true

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

@Nikki

I also want to make sure that I’m not being too rude. Several people have replied to you already, and I realize that it can be overwhelming when you’re clearly in the minority with many people disagreeing. If this goes too far, just let me know and I’ll tone it down.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
4 years ago

@wwth, @IP
No, you’re not dogpiling or being too harsh. I’m trying to tackle all of this and clarify my opinions to myself and others and I may be pushing myself a little hard and trying to bite off more than I can chew. I’ll say something if/when I feel like I’ve reached my limit and need some brain bleach. Thanks for your concern, both of you.
I can’t think of any examples of Democratic fiscal extremism at the moment. This doesn’t necessarily mean that there aren’t any (see Einstein’s comment about the universe and human stupidity), but the fact that I can’t think of any leads me to conclude that Democrats going farther left is indeed an illusion caused by how far right Republicans are going.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
4 years ago

@Nikki

Pretending as if the Democrats are going way off into the extreme left has been a Republican strategy for a long time. Just look at how they’ve tried to paint Obama as a communist when in reality there’s nothing extreme about him in the slightest. And they constantly accuse him of being a totalitarian dictator, even though he’s a democratically elected president doing normal president-y things.

Basic things such as bodily autonomy, non-discrimination, a living wage, etc, are being described as never-before-seen levels of extremist commie nazi end-of-the-world catastrophes. This is a deliberate strategy, which apparently has worked in your case.

weirwoodtreehugger
4 years ago

Yeah, I think if the GOP started insisting that the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, the corporate media would start saying that it’s similarly extreme to the position of the sun rising in the east and setting in the west even though the latter position is the one that is demonstrably true.

Scildfreja
Scildfreja
4 years ago

On the politics! From my outsider Canadian perspective, your Democrats are sort of centrist, with part of the party to the right (pro-corporate) and part to the left (mild social welfare network support). Your republicans are all very much right-wing.

I’ve always been a bit mystified by the idea of left-wing politics being full of government waste, and I’m fairly confident that most of that is just right-wing talking points. Left wing governments do spend more money, yes, but it’s generally spent on social services that benefits people – I wouldn’t call that waste.

You can complain about the costs of bureaucracy, also, but those costs also exist in the right wing side of the equation. At its best, those costs are handled by private companies, so can be subjected to market forces (for better or worse). At its worst, those costs are just outright denied, like the funding for the Iraq war, which was appropriated by the government, never went through a budget, and just added directly to the debt (as far as I can recall). Corruption and government bungling exist on both sides.

I like the green party, at least as a concept. They push for efficient government with reasonable social services and welfare, and an emphasis on sustainability. Not always great in practice, but focusing on sustainability in all things seems like the best way to go.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
4 years ago

@wwth, @IP
Yeah, it’s definitely an illusion. I think I saw the illusion for a while before I was willing to admit I did, but now I acknowledge it.
I’m going to leave things here for now and give myself some time to think and process everything before making my final decision. I plan to discuss it more during this process, but I’ve reached my limit for now-I bit off a little more than I can chew atm.
Thank you both so much!

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

1 in 10 seems a bit high.

It isn’t. Two studies were done – one found that 8% of men are rapists, and the other found 13%.

Read about them here:

https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/predator-redux/

It turns out that rapists will self-report if you don’t use the word “rape” to describe what they did. If you ask a rapist, “Have you committed rape?” they will say no. If you ask the same rapist, “Have you ever had sex with someone, even though they didn’t want you to?” they will say yes.

1 in 10 is on the mark. It only seems high to you because you are fucking ignorant on this topic and unqualified to speak about it. You’re speaking from your feels, not from facts.

In America I can’t really find a comparable study.

Then you didn’t look hard at all, because the Yes Means Yes writeup on these studies is all over the internet. You probably typed something inane into Google and didn’t look past the first page, didn’t you?

This issue is important to me, someone very close to me dealt with this at a young age.

You know how someone reacts when this issue is important to them? It’s not with this:

I don’t like that kind of rhetoric, sounds too much like, not all Muslims are terrorist, but enough of them are to make us generally more suspicious of the whole group.

The way someone who really finds this important reacts is this: “OMG, enough men are rapists that many women have to treat every man they meet with caution? This is an emergency! What can I do to reduce the incidence of rape? How can I help get these rapists off the streets so that victims and potential victims feel safer?”

It’s not, “Don’t talk about it like that, it gives me sad feels.” It’s, “What can I do to make this stop happening?”

Your words don’t match up with … your words.

I one day want to do more to help people like my friend and the countless other people’s lives who have been afflicted with sometime so awful. For now all I can do is educate myself.

No. Educating yourself is actually step 2. You haven’t crossed step 1 yet, which is to stop prioritizing yourself and going to the emergency room for paper cuts. Treat your paper cut at home, with a band-aid. Treat your sad feels at home, with a bowl of ice cream and a really nice hot bath. Don’t haul them around with you expecting everyone to think they are as important as you do.

katz
4 years ago

1 in 10 seems a bit high.

Luckily we have other means to determine this figure than the “how many jelly beans are in this jar” technique.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

@Nikki
I don’t like the party system and don’t always agree with the Democrat party so I am registered as independent. I still almost always vote blue but on principle I do not register with a party. It does suck that I’m less involved in the process as a result, but that’s what I decided. If you want to be part of the whole process and you side mostly with Democrats, what do you feel you would lose by registering as a Democrat?

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

I don’t like that …

1 in 10 seems a bit high.

MRAs are always so emotional, letting their feelings override rationality, logic and cold, hard science. Pfft.

On a less snarky note, my phone just autocorrected “Pfft” to “Orgy.”

Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)
Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)
4 years ago

I’m gone for like 24 hours and Pandapool turns into Handsome Jack!

And also joins Sevenofmine in the group of people whose comments I will always hear in their characters’ voices.

And what a sexy, smooth voice it is too.

http://media.tumblr.com/cf2f539c1988e9c5487a186d72b7e33d/tumblr_inline_ms3pggZvAy1qz4rgp.gif

I actually entertained the thought of Torgue, you know, since he’s cool and all, but then I couldn’t resist writing in all uppercase then because I have no self restraint. Plus, I do call people “kiddo” and “babe” all the time anyway, so why the hell not, right? (Well, not on the site, but, ya know, when pretending to be Roman…)

Richard Via
Richard Via
4 years ago

Okay, so going with the 10% number, what sweeping changes should be made to start incarcerating these scumbags. That’s no easy task to do. I think the under reporting of the crime is one of the main issues right now. Is there anything currently being proposed that I can get behind?

Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)
Handsome "These Pretzels Suck" Jack (formerly Pandapool)
4 years ago

Okay, so going with the 10% number, what sweeping changes should be made to start incarcerating these scumbags. That’s no easy task to do. I think the under reporting of the crime is one of the main issues right now. Is there anything currently being proposed that I can get behind?

Here ya go, kiddo. You can start here, if you have java script, or here if you don’t.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

Guys, make sure your suggestions for how to make men stop raping us is something Richard can get behind. This is super hard stuff and he doesn’t want to agree that it’s a problem that should be addressed until we have a solution he finds suitable.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 years ago

I think the under reporting of the crime is one of the main issues right now.

Why is under-reporting the issue you’ve decided to care about, rather than the fact that the crime is occurring?

Is there anything currently being proposed that I can get behind?

Have you looked? Did you read those YMY articles? I suspect you didn’t, because they actually have suggestions for what you, as a man, can do about it starting today, at effectively no cost to you.

Oh, wait, nm. Those suggestions addressed what you can do to reduce rape, and make rapists feel uncomfortable, not what you can do to shift the onus of action onto people who have just been raped to take care of the problem for you. So that wouldn’t interest you in the slightest.

weirwoodtreehugger
4 years ago

Notice the subtle victim blaming he tried to slip in. Rapists don’t go to jail because rape is under reported. Not because there huge flaws in the way it’s investigated and policed that cause reporting to result in victims essentially revictimized. Not because going public with an accusation result in them being called lying whores. Gee, it’s so mysterious that it’s under reported.