Never underestimate the ability of Men’s Rights Activists to get worked up over the most ridiculous nonsense.
I found the meme above on the Men’s Rights Australia Facebook page, accompanied by this explanation:
Women are allowed to wear whatever they like to work, including sleeveless tops, short skirts, and even thongs. Yet if a man were to wear sleeveless tops, shorts, or thongs you can be sure he’d be sent home from work or even fired. In summer men have to suffer in the heat wearing trousers, long sleeve shirts, and tie. Feminists claim they also care about inequalities facing men so why aren’t they fighting against this? -ms
YEAH FEMINISTS WHY AREN’T YOU FIGHTING AGAINST THIS TERRIBLE INJUSTICE, WOMEN NEVER HAVE TO WEAR ANYTHING UNCOMFORTABLE OR AWKWARD AT WORK 0h wait
Note: I should point out that the “thongs” being referenced aren’t the ones that ride up your butt, but rather are the ones you wear on your feet and that are also called flip flops, at least here in the US.
BONUS MEME: This isn’t a Men’s Rights meme, obviously, but it literally made me laugh out loud.
Apparently the best way to fight communism is to do nothing while the oceans rise. I guess the Communists have their secret bases on the Marshall Islands?
I’m reminded of this legendary toilet paper ad.
A spectre is haunting the bathroom — the spectre of really really scratchy toilet paper.
“Kale: As much as I agree with you, I think you have the wrong idea about me, and that’s just sad.”
& here I thought I was gonna be able to come back and respond patiently now that Ive chilled out for a bit….
I just…
I wanna scream & cuss….
…OK this is as nice as I can manage to be:
you ignored everything I said. Completely. & condescended to me on top of it. Why even respond?
Notice how other people said “Im sorry that happened to you”?
Dont you care that GROWN MEN might try to harass YOUR daughters like that, dont you care about doing your part to change that dynamic in this culture?!
This is a feminist space. LISTEN TO WOMEN here.
Or seriously, at least just go away. Go hang with men who think objectifying women is fine too, because they dominate every other space everywhere.
Because where Im sitting you have no call to get on a moral high horse about MRAs. & I think some men rag on more sexist guys as an excuse to not be less sexist themselves.
& please dont respond with another condescending brushoff or a fuax pology. I just dont wanna hear it.
– & thanks to the supportive people.
@EJ (the other one)
Regarding the small penis thing, I disagree.
To any male chauvinist, simply implying that his masculinity is not up to size is devastating, pun intended.
I mean, it’s MRAs we’re talking about here.
I consider myself superior to MRAs simply because their ideology is laughably idiotic, no two ways about it.
Posters around here don’t consider themselves superior to MRAs?
Regarding your tone trolling remarks, I’m not tone trolling, that’s just the way I write.
I didn’t come to this site with a bullying intention.
I like this site a lot, and I lurk a lot around discussions because I get a lot of valuable input about a lot of issues that concern me.
I started to post more actively to start feeling more part of this community and having some laughs at it, but it’s obvious I’m not a good fit here, so let’s just leave it at that.
I don’t believe in aggresive gender stereotypes, but I love to use them when mocking and calling out MRAs because it simply leaves them like a deer caught in the headlights.
If the content and or tone of my writing is offensive to this site’s posters I sincerely apologize, since me expecting an established community to adjust its dynamic to accomodate the way I express myself is way out of line, it should be the other way around.
So, let’s just say that I’ll take the points you told me and stop posting around here.
If anyone wants to contact me, feel free to ask this site’s administrator for my email, I promise to write back.
Bye, and keep up the good work, I’ll be still be lurking around.
When I first started working after college, the dress code was pretty strict, both the written policy and the unwritten expectations. Skirt and blouse, or a dress. Dress slacks. Panty hose except maybe in summer with the right kind of shoes. Heels or dress flats. Part of the unwritten code was makeup. Did I mention this was in the American South?
I’ve been telecommuting for years now, and I love it. I could, theoretically, work in a nightshirt, but I prefer to wear street clothes because they put me in a more serious frame of mind. But since I have a home office and nobody else can see me, “street clothes” can mean my Doctor Who t-shirt and shorts. I’m usually barefoot. I keep a pair of slippers near my desk in case I get cold. Most of my teammates have a similar approach to “office wear.” It’s great. Our customers judge us by how well we present over the phone or via e-mail, not by how we look.
@kale, solidarity with you for all the bullshit you’ve experienced. It is so tiring to be seen as a body first, anything else second, if ever.
@eloli, in case you actually want advice on this:
1. Recognize that appearance, clothes and makeup are all forms of self expression that women are taught to value and often do value. Don’t assume that their interest in beauty or fashion is completely worthless or shallow. It may be very important to them. It is harmful to tell your daughters that their interests or the interests of their female relatives are lesser.
2. As others have said, compliment your daughters on things on which they have worked hard. Encourage the activities in which they take a strong interest, even if it’s outside of your own areas of interest.
3. Do activities with them that involve using their bodies for something besides appearance – hiking, tennis, walking, building something, gardening, etc.
4. Refer to and appreciate the other women in your life and their life for things besides appearances. Rather than commenting on a woman’s looks, make sure you are aware of and respect women’s personalities, the work they do and the things they’ve accomplished.
@kale:
If this does any good, I won’t be posting around here anymore.
I do care about grown men harassing my daughters, I find it vey hurtful that anyone could think otherwise, and it makes me as livid as you feel now towards me.
I know you don’t believe in my sincerity, but I want to apologize since I didn’t think my writings could be so offensive or hurtful towards you, or any poster.
Bye.
Adding to the “Is it cool to compliment clothes, or is it creepy?” discussion:
My work has no dress code, and I regularly come to work in ragged sneaks, jeans, a sweater that declares me “Overlord of Studying”, and safety glasses.
So, huge grain of salt required. Huge grain. Just replace Denali (Mt. McKinley to any silly Ohioans) with a single grain of salt.
I personally find it extraordinarily disconcerting and awkward when anyone mentions something about my appearance, particularly positive things, but also the ‘are you ill’ type.
Compliments always put me on massive defensive mode. My radar pings with “PERSON IS PAYING TO MUCH ATTENTION TO ME AHHHHH” and I try to become invisible. Partially because the usual suspects who actually use a lot of compliments were drunk guys or that one dude who wanted me to do all his R coding for him and teach him all of stats.
So, yeah.
If you ever see a short person in safety glasses, ratty sneakers, and an overlord of studying black sweater, stay away from the compliments, please?
If you were talking to a male chauvinist? Sure, I’d buy that. Wouldn’t agree, but I’d buy that that’s why you used the term.
Huge difference between talking to someone and talking about someone, to feminists, though.
The whole point of feminism (In my interpretation!) is that a feminist stops buying into destructive, harmful social norms. Using this language about *anyone* just propagates the destructive mindset, the toxic masculinity, the patriarchal structure – use your descriptor of choice.
This said – I understand your reaction. Happy travels, and I hope things work out well with your daughters.
@Emmy Rae:
Thanks for your comments, I appreciate you take the time to write them even after all these ugly exchanges.
Thanks, I really want my daughters to grow up like their mother: confident, independent and interested on making our world a better place to live in.
I’m really scared about my own inhability to raise them with the right values, and the fact that most of the women around them in my family aren’t exactly great role models towards this worries me a lot.
I sincerely hope you don’t think I may be a bigot or a sexual harasser.
Anywat, thanks again, and bye.
@contrapangloss I promise!
Stuff like this always reminds me that some people, like whoever made that picture, live in an entirely different headspace than I do. Because my gut response to that question was, “The woman, obviously, because someone’s going to throw a fit about the length of her skirt or the fact that they got a peek of her bra strap because her top is sleeveless or something. They’ll say it’s too distracting or unprofessional, and she’ll never be able to choose her work outfit without worrying about those stupid complaints ever again.”
I just… do we live in completely separate universes or something? I have literally never seen a man reprimanded over his choice of clothing at work or school unless his pants sagged low enough to show his underwear. Where is the evil clothing dictator shaming men for wearing short sleeves, exactly? Or even the ever popular “those shorts are showing too much leg and you should be ASHAMED?”
@eloli
Keep reading the comments and articles here (and elsewhere) to absorb a variety of alternative opinions. I see your willingness to try as admirable and think your girls will benefit from it. I like to think the world is progressing and will be a bit better for your children than it was for us, and their children after them. In time I’m sure you’ll better understand how different people feel about things; if you haven’t encountered certain lines of thinking before you’ll naturally not understand there is a problem, how you react to that new information is the main thing.
Everyday Feminism is another good site that deals a lot with unraveling subtle underlying messages, if you’re willing to have an open mind. I recommend it if you’re really concerned about the message you send your kids, because the way we phrase things can absolutely has an affect on how children interpret and form their own cultural standards.
I love everything about this comment. It sounds like what Captain Janeway would say right before she opened fire.
In this particular go-round of the old argument about ‘small dick’ insults, has anyone yet pointed out that using the penis as (so to speak) as the measure of a man erases many trans men?
Going OT–an interesting point made about a phrase I’ve used myself without thinking:
@eloli
I was also extremely uncomfortable with your casual description of women as “the view,” your mocking of small genitalia, and your implications that MRAs are suffering from mental illness.
It’s tone policing and it’s not the way you write, it’s something you consciously did. You chose to tell people they were being uncivil and that they couldn’t take a joke.
This is an issue that concerns you, too; please try to hear what people are saying. I get why you’re defensive. I really do. Your behavior is considered normal in most spaces. But as feminists we are more aware of the nuances to sexism and we don’t call out problematic statements to be mean or to use them as a gotcha. We honestly feel these things are harmful and we want to improve them.
Give it some time. Read some more about intersectional feminism. You’ll get along fine if you are willing to take this criticism to heart and most importantly if you stop doubling down and insisting you’ve done nothing wrong. Your intentions don’t erase the harm. People around here are understanding if you’re willing to examine your behaviors but not so much if you insist everyone else needs to get a sense of humor/doesn’t understand you/is reading too much into things.
That’s not okay. You’re perpetuating those stereotypes and bullying people. MRAs are people, and shouldn’tbe bullied any more than feminists should.
There’s this whole class of dudes who are just convinced that they have infallible judgment and that any evidence suggesting that they’re mistaken must be wrong because it’s impossible that there was a mistake in their judgment.
One of these guys explained to me in the same conversation that Uber drivers are happy and he knows they’re not just pretending to be happy because their job depends on it because he’s a very good judge of character, and that while in other circumstances the two kids named Lemonjello and Oranjello were an urban legend, the person who told him that story was telling the truth because he knows and trusts this guy.
“In summer men have to suffer in the heat wearing trousers, long sleeve shirts, and tie.”
When? Walking to their car? Places with that kind of dress code normally also have decent air conditioning.
Since it’s not the case for all women in all jobs, I wish I *could* wear what ever I wanted at work, then I might not be trying to keel over from the heat some days. Sure, I can wear short sleeves, but it’s not much of a help when it’s hot.
Gaebolga, I have a quick tip and a rambling Theory of Compliments.
The tip: You’ve said it’s a mostly-female workforce, which implies that you do have some male coworkers. Do you comment on the men’s wardrobes? If you haven’t, why not start? Your female coworkers will notice and it will help contextualize your interactions with them.
Jesus christ, y’all, this thread.
It’s no fucking wonder eloli’s female victims don’t complain when he sexually harasses them. Look at how he reacts to the MILDEST of criticism of his behavior. I sure as shit wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of that in a work situation.
Goddamn, I read through this and see people BENDING OVER BACKWARDS to take care of your precious, precious, precious feelings, eloli, and all you can do is whine and whine and fucking whine about how you’re not doing anything wrooooooooooong and it’s all the other people who are screwed up for being uncomfortable with your dehumanizing and ableist and yes, sexually harassing language. It’s literally the entire commentariat who is wrong here, not you, in your own tiny mind.
Your casual humblebrags about your age and position of authority make my eyes roll so far back into my head I can practically see myself thinking.
And then you demand a fucking apology.
I’ll offer you the same kind of one you offered. I’m sorry you feel so put-upon, but nobody here has done anything but tiptoe around you and your ego. The problem is not with the WHTM commenters. Its with your complete inability to accept that your behavior might not be absolutely perfect. Christ almighty, you must be an absolute delight to work with. My sincerest sympathies to the women you work with every day.
@Gaebolga
If you’re concerned that you might come across as creepy, just stop doing it. There’s nothing making you do it, and there are other ways to connect with your co-workers. If you have even the slightest doubt that you might come across the wrong way, just don’t do it anymore and all your doubts will be resolved instantly.
I’m sure I’m just repeating what any other Australian commenters have said but, I’m a woman in Australia, work in an office, and sure as hell am not allowed to wear thongs. Also men don’t have to wear ties, and can wear short sleeves. There should be more flexibility in what men can wear to work (it does get bloody hot here), but blaming women for it is ridiculous. Feminists generally support relaxing dress codes!
Elloli,
It takes two, in my opinion, to flirt, and it takes 2 to joke around, so I’m curious — do the women you’re sweet-talking participate in it? Laughter doesn’t count, incidentally. It can be genuine happiness, or an involuntary response to anxiety, or a request for you to un-say something troubling by calling it a joke, or just a filler response when no other ideas spring to mind.
If you tell a woman she’s hot* and she calls you hot right back, you’re probably fine**. If you tell her she’s hot* and she laughs, I’d suggest not trying it again.
*No matter how indirect or flowery your words
**Provided no one else is in earshot
One further tip for Gaebolga: Accessories are usually fair game. Complimenting someone’s purse/phone case/desk decoration can’t usually be taken as applying to their body.
@PoM: You put into words exactly what I thought reading through all that. Holy cow….
You’re apologizing for other people being offended by your words without ever really acknowledging that your words were offensive. Makes me question your sincerity. Artfully dodging culpability for the offended status of someone else by apologizing for their offendedness… You have a shovel but you’re digging the wrong way.