Never underestimate the ability of Men’s Rights Activists to get worked up over the most ridiculous nonsense.
I found the meme above on the Men’s Rights Australia Facebook page, accompanied by this explanation:
Women are allowed to wear whatever they like to work, including sleeveless tops, short skirts, and even thongs. Yet if a man were to wear sleeveless tops, shorts, or thongs you can be sure he’d be sent home from work or even fired. In summer men have to suffer in the heat wearing trousers, long sleeve shirts, and tie. Feminists claim they also care about inequalities facing men so why aren’t they fighting against this? -ms
YEAH FEMINISTS WHY AREN’T YOU FIGHTING AGAINST THIS TERRIBLE INJUSTICE, WOMEN NEVER HAVE TO WEAR ANYTHING UNCOMFORTABLE OR AWKWARD AT WORK 0h wait
Note: I should point out that the “thongs” being referenced aren’t the ones that ride up your butt, but rather are the ones you wear on your feet and that are also called flip flops, at least here in the US.
BONUS MEME: This isn’t a Men’s Rights meme, obviously, but it literally made me laugh out loud.
Apparently the best way to fight communism is to do nothing while the oceans rise. I guess the Communists have their secret bases on the Marshall Islands?
I’m reminded of this legendary toilet paper ad.
A spectre is haunting the bathroom — the spectre of really really scratchy toilet paper.
What’s wrong with “appreciating the beauty of women“?
It sounds like you are not appreciating women as people–individuals unto themselves–but as instantiations of the Form of Beauty–all alike in that property.
I compare you to a note from a boner on the gray.
Ooh,
The more I talk to you,
The creepier it feels, yeah.
Finding a woman beautiful is in no way problematic. But your definition of “appreciating the beauty of women” seems to include vocalizing that appreciation. In the workplace that is definitely problematic. Even if you’re friends with your female coworkers and you really think they don’t mind your comments, it’s not appropriate in the actual office. It should at least be kept to after hours socializing. We go to work to work. Not to have our appearance evaluated. Unless appearance is part of the job, like modeling, a female colleague’s appearance is not relevant.
Every woman I know – myself included – has at some point reacted to a sexual comment or a come one with laughter because that’s usually the safest way out of an awkward situation. Giving a hard “no” to a man often results in retaliation of some sort. Maybe you would never do that, but men who react poorly to rejection don’t wear a sign and women have no way of knowing you’re not one of those men.
Colloquialisms don’t come from nowhere. They reflect culture. The culture regards women as the sexual class. Saying a remark was a colloquialism doesn’t shield you from critiques of your behavior.
Oh, and another reason it doesn’t mean that much that you reprimanded an underling for inappropriate behavior; management often engages in behaviors that are disallowed for lower level employee. In just about every job I’ve had where employees are expected to constantly be on task, management spends plenty of time sitting around chatting, playing on their phones, etc. There’s no reason it can’t be the same for sexual harassment. Also, your zero tolerance policy doesn’t mean much either. Every company has a zero tolerance policy for harassment on paper. At least in countries where there discrimination based on gender is illegal. That doesn’t mean sexual harassment isn’t tolerated in many ways.
“I’m sorry you’re offended” is not a real apology. You haven’t learned anything or taken our comments on board. You’re not sorry at all. That fauxpology is just a way of telling us that you think we’re taking offense at something that isn’t really offensive, being too sensitive.
as a large breasted person, I started getting sexually harassed by grown men at 11.
I talked here about getting harassed at work. I also had a boss corner an intellectually disabled 16 yo co worker in the back…
my mom reported sexual assault and got moved to the cornfield as they tried to fire her.
My entire life people have commented on my body.
and I NEVER LIKED IT.
“oh but youre an exception”
if so, so fucking what?
STOP TREATING ALL WOMEN LIKE OBJECTS.
You dont do it to men. You dont obsess about their apperance and make them aware of it. So. STOP. pretending it isnt sexist.
“but Im straight!”
So would you tolerate gay guys treating u that way? lesbians and trans people dont run around doing this either. ONLY STRAIGHT CIS GUYS DO IT AND ONLY TO PERCEIVED WOMEN. So STOP pretending it isnt your privilege at the expense of our lack thereof.
Lots of men who start by saying how beautiful a woman is end up being creeps who cross serious lines. So yes, just saying your fucking COWORKER who needa the job and cant risk telling you to fuck off and IS THERE TO WORK is sexy or beautiful is threatening. SO STOP.
Women shouldnt have to convince you. When we say we dont like it the first time, you should just. fucking. stop.
@sunnysombrera:
I wasn’t offended by Emmy Rae’s accusation of sexual harassment because I didn’t take it as a an accusation, I just took it for some misunderstanding based on wrong assumptions.
If Emmy Rae thinks I actually sexually harass my coworkers because of some comment, there’s nothing I can do about that.
Or well, there is.
Ask for my email to this site’s administrator’s email, which is my work email.
You can also get my real name there, since my work email is based on my name.
What I’m trying to say here is that I’m a real person, who can be reached and who’s online behavior is publicly accountable, not some idiot MRA hiding behind some fake identity.
And that’s why I found your comparisson so offensive: not only I’m not a closet bigot, sexist, or mysoginist, It greatly offends how you implied that I’m also coward, since I have nothing to hide.
I can understand that you don’t think I’m not owed an apology, but at the same time, I think you’re being too harsh on me.
Bear in mind that civil communication requires proportional responses.
I mean, I don’t think my comments were that bad to justify me being accused of sexual harassment. I mean, I found that reponse so over the top, that I took it for a misscomunication error.
Same with your comparisson, but Since you explained it, I won’t take it as a personal insult or anything, but bear in mind, not all attitudes are considered equally sexist, bigoted or harmful by everybody, and always assuming the wort about everyone isn’t the way to go.
@Starfury: thanks for the tip, that’s what we’re trying to do, but I’m afraid it may not be enough. Time will tell.
@opposablethumbs: I find my descriptions humorous, and also very tacky, I can agree with you on that. I don’t think I automatically deserve being labeled a bigot or a harasser be ause of them, though. And I’ll never agree that small dick jokes are bad, how am I supposed to mock and insult MRAs? 😀
http://media.giphy.com/media/HmvgKmgmkX3q0/giphy.gif
@Gaebolga A useful rule of thumb is that people generally enjoy being complimented on things over which they have choice or control (which includes clothing choices), and are made uncomfortable by compliments about things over which they have no control (‘hey, nice tits!’ ‘thanks, I grew them myself’). So it definitely sounds like your compliments will come across as the former rather than the latter (as long as, as people above have mentioned, you don’t stray into commenting on bodies rather than, you can say, the mind of the person who’s made the fashion choice).
Something no one’s specifically brought up yet is that while it may be true that women have a wide(r) variety of clothes to choose from, we’re stuck with whatever’s being sold, or is in fashion, whether it happens to suit us or not. If you don’t have unlimited time and money you’re pretty much stuck with whatever happens to be available this season. I went for years without buying trousers because waistbands below the navel are not very flattering on me (I have an hourglass figure and huge butt); the proscription on natural-waist trousers has finally eased up a bit but I finally had to just start buying what was available and wearing untucked shirts or tunics over them. I look good in earth tones; I don’t get to buy any clothes when pastels or jewel tones are all you can find in the shops and catalogs. I used to look terrific in ’80s/new romantic stuff (I used to cut the shoulder pads out :)), but just look lumpy and awkward in the currently fashionable shapes and silhouettes. Oh and don’t get me started on fucking 3/4 sleeves and 7/8 trousers.
I’m sorry I haven’t been able to comment or interact so much lately – dad’s on the mend from his cancer treatment (we’re all clear so far, woo!) but it’s a lot of stress and around-the-house-stuff to take care of. (Especially apologies to EJ and the others who are in the google docs game!) I just wanted to chime in here briefly.
Mij sort of nailed it with that statement, and why it bugs me when men talk about appreciating “The female form” or “The Beauty of Women”. Makes my skin crawl. It’s a very clear demonstration of how women are for looking at; derivations from the Platonic Form of Woman. Shadows of Venus.
The defense usually forks into a few categories, but it usually boils down to “It’s male nature! Biology!”, to which I say “defecating is also male nature, and yet you’ve managed to figure out how to confine that to the bathroom. Try the same with your eyeballs.”
As a note, though, I’m pretty asexual and don’t really classify people on that spectrum myself, so I’m probably not one to judge!
@EJ
That says it way better than I could have.
omfg
you could mock THEM instead of small dicked people.
like this: man it sure is ridiculous how that sexist dude has no clue and says silly, offensive stuff even when people have made it clear its unwelcome here. How intentionally ignorant of him. what a jerkoff asshat.
wtf.
*leaving thread to reduce feminist hulk rage & hoping dude gets booted*
@ scildfreja
Ugh, my heart goes out to you; that must have been horrible. So glad for you for that news; all my wishes that continues to be the case.
Happy to hear from you, Scildfreja! Glad your dad is getting better.
Eloli, this particular crazy piece of the view really hopes you get bored of commenting here, but soon, because you’re being a massive jerk.
PS also typical of “harmless totally not sexists” to breeze on by women talking about serious instances of harassment like no one said anything.
Echoing Kale to boost signal – @eloli, you’re in a position of power over these people. They have to be nice to you if they want to succeed at work. Regardless of how long you’ve known them, or how long you’ve worked together, this is the case. You get to dictate the boundaries of the relationship at work, and their only recourse takes great bravery (and possibly destroying their career) if they don’t like the boundaries you set.
If you care about them, you will keep this in mind while interacting with them.
EDIT: Thank you, @Alan and @Viscaria! Things are going fantastic, actually – better recovery than expected. Some unforeseen complications of course, but we are all handling it in stride.
@ Kale
I’m sorry for how much utter horribleness you’ve suffered =( Your words help me feel better about feeling the same way. The support system we find in this age of easy and anonymous communication helps us solidify our views and use our bad experiences to work together and stop others experiencing the same.
@ eloli
If they (the relatives) won’t listen and their influence is substantial, I guess you’ll have to sit down and discuss their opinions with your kids, giving context and encouraging alternative thoughts.
Also, the only problem with penis size I’ve ever encountered is how society overall makes men with small ones feel inadequate and men with large ones think they’re somehow better than everyone else.
@dlowe:
The lack of sense of humor around here certainly dicourages me from posting. Don’t worry, you won’t have to worry about me posting much in the future.
@weirwoodtreehugger:
I work in advertising, and appearence is kind of relevant at my job, especially if you’re in client sevice. This goes both ways, by the way, but that’s not the point.
I never, ever compliment on a woman’s appearance unless I’m pretty sure she’s comfortable with that, that’s the way I was raised.
Regarding men’s reactions, you’re absolutely right, and that’s why I’m not that bothered by how much unfavorable things you’re assuming about me. I don’t agree on your comments about management. Not only we do work a lot, we’re also accountable both for our errors and the errors people under us make, you know.
I don’t think I’m fauxapologizing, but if you’re interested, you can get my identity pretty easily, contact me and draw your own conclusions about the kind of person I am.
@Kale: As much as I agree with you, I think you have the wrong idea about me, and that’s just sad.
@Eloli – It’s also important to remember that many colloquial expressions can be casually loaded in ways that we may not be conscious of because they are often the product of old ways of thinking that were acceptable at the time, like classism, homophobia, body-shaming or ableism. Try checking out the comments policy to get a more in-depth understanding of what we mean. Another one of those touchy veiled meanings happens to be referring to women as body parts or non-human objects.
I also recommend you read up on the concept of “Toxic Masculinity”. The way we choose to use language and refer to ideas also has an affect on our mental constructs. Using things like “small dick” jokes as a catch-all insult links this negativity to their level of masculinity and also indirectly implies that to be perceived as effeminate is bad, and by extension, femininity is also bad. That is another example of colloquialism rooted to outmoded cultural standards. Their dick size is irrelevant and should be treated as such, it is their behavior and hatefulness that is the issue.
I made an admittance that I used strong words, but come ON now. How did I even manage to imply that?
Ohhhhhh maaaaate, you think I was being too harsh? Like EJ said up above, the way I’ve been talking to you has been freaking mild compared to the other confrontations we hold on this blog. Stronger words have been used during infighting for pete’s sake, and infighting is something we try to avoid. Nobody here has actually gotten their claws out for you, least of all me.
First of all I never directly compared you to bigots, I just paraphrased your words in a way that sounds like something a racist would say. Which I admitted was blunt, but regardless you took it and ran with it. Second, I know that not all attitudes are as bad as each other (thought what do you mean by “by everyone?”) and again, if you’d actually absorbed everything else I’ve said to you you’ll see that I used a LOT of “maybe”s “could”s and “possibly”s and made it clear that I was just trying to get you to consider an alternative viewpoint. Not accusing, not calling you an MRA (and I’m still not), not assuming the worst, just an attempt to get you to listen. Yet you’re STILL harping on about tone policing instead of addressing the bulk of my comments.
Now. Are you going to take me up on my points about how maaaaayyyyybeeeeeeeeee your female colleagues feel differently from what they let on, and why? Or are we going to go around in circles?
@Kale
I’m sorry that this happened to you, your coworker, and your mom. All of this sounds very scary.
@Scildfreja
It’s nice to have you back! I hope that your dad is completely well soon.
And yeah, guys do somehow manage to defecate privately. Good point!
“It’s just a joke! Where’s your sense of humour?”
You’ve just gotta be filling up a bingo sheet somewhere.
If you mock a manospherian’s views, you are saying that your views are superior to theirs. This may well be true, and is an acceptable position to hold. Ideas are not people and so can be attacked without a person being hurt.
If you mock a manospherian’s behaviour, you are saying that their behaviour is unacceptable and yours is better. Again, this may well be true. Behaviour matters, and therefore holding people’s behaviour to account matters.
However.
If you mock a manospherian’s penis size or similar characteristics, you are saying that you are superior as a man. This cannot be true: there is no such thing as a “superior” or “inferior” man. Having a small penis doesn’t make you a bad person or a weak person, and having a large penis doesn’t make you in any way admirable, dominant or superior. However, many people believe that it does, and you appear to be among them.
This is a harmful narrative. It’s harmful to all of humanity because it encourages people to view interpersonal relationships as being a matter of establishing dominance over one another. It’s harmful to women because it encourages men to see women as objects for asserting their status rather than people in their own rights. It’s harmful to non-binary people because it tells them that being “less than manly” is somehow something to be ashamed of.
Most of all, however, it’s harmful to men, because it encourages us to see life as a competition rather than as cooperation; and because it forces other men to hide behind protective facades of exaggerated masculinity, preventing them from talking honestly with one another and forming genuine emotional bonds.
I said earlier that this is a website where we tend to judge people by the meanings of their words rather than the superficial tone. In this case, I’m going to have to call you out on the meaning of your words. You appear to have come here under the impression that you’ll be one bully among several, assuming a stance of dominance over weaker people and mocking them for their perceived failure to live up to an aggressive gender stereotype.
Well, fuck you. We are not bullies here. We do not mock the weak. We mock those who are under the misapprehension that they have a born right to dominate because of their gender, race or any other trait. We mock those motherfuckers hard, and it’s usually deeply satisfying because they’re generally unused to the idea that anyone might ever not give them the respect that they feel they deserve. Equally, we stop doing it when they apologise and improve their behaviour, because as mentioned we are not bullies.
I don’t want to have to do this to you. Therefore, please let me hear you apologise for tone-trolling. Let me hear you say it properly, including an admission of your own motives for doing so, and a pledge to sincerely examine your own behaviour in future. If you do not know what tone trolling is, the google search bar is up the top of your browser screen; I recommend that you use it.
Alternatively, please let me hear a deafening silence from a man who just realised that he isn’t going to get showered in plaudits for coming up with creative bullying, and decided not to stick around.
@sunnysombrera
You make some excellent points!
Nonetheless, I’ve got $5 on “go around in circles.”
Prove me wrong, eloli!
Plus this:
Your psychic powers are not nearly as strong as you think they are.
And by the way, “If I offended you, I’m sorry” is a nonapology apology.
You haven’t said sexist things. We just have no sense of humor. That’s not the oldest trick in the brick in men dismissing women’s (and allies’) opinions about sexism at all.
@Eloli – As for your daughters, I recommend having an open and frank discussion with them. I also recommend allowing and encouraging them to explore their interests and talents so that they can develop a sense of self and personal value that goes beyond their appearance. Read to them and help them develop intellectually. Praise them in terms of their progress and accomplishments. Introduce them to role models and fictional characters with defining qualities like bravery, cunning, etc. Even if there is a dearth of female characters who are valued for something besides their looks, let them identify with traditional masculinity as well.
And one of the most important and most difficult things for parents to do: Let your kids tackle things hands-on and learn through trial and error, even if they might screw up or hurt themselves. Don’t worry, kids heal fast. Then when they are adults they will have skill and confidence to solve their own problems and not rely on others.
@ eloli
Here you have access to a wide range of people with opinions different from your own; this is a valuable resource for personal growth. It would be a shame to give up at the first sign of criticism; just think a bit about what people here are saying because it may be one of the only places you’ll get that kind of information. People generally don’t like criticism, I get that, but sometimes (not always) the people criticising are the only ones willing to give you honest feedback.