Never underestimate the ability of Men’s Rights Activists to get worked up over the most ridiculous nonsense.
I found the meme above on the Men’s Rights Australia Facebook page, accompanied by this explanation:
Women are allowed to wear whatever they like to work, including sleeveless tops, short skirts, and even thongs. Yet if a man were to wear sleeveless tops, shorts, or thongs you can be sure he’d be sent home from work or even fired. In summer men have to suffer in the heat wearing trousers, long sleeve shirts, and tie. Feminists claim they also care about inequalities facing men so why aren’t they fighting against this? -ms
YEAH FEMINISTS WHY AREN’T YOU FIGHTING AGAINST THIS TERRIBLE INJUSTICE, WOMEN NEVER HAVE TO WEAR ANYTHING UNCOMFORTABLE OR AWKWARD AT WORK 0h wait
Note: I should point out that the “thongs” being referenced aren’t the ones that ride up your butt, but rather are the ones you wear on your feet and that are also called flip flops, at least here in the US.
BONUS MEME: This isn’t a Men’s Rights meme, obviously, but it literally made me laugh out loud.
Apparently the best way to fight communism is to do nothing while the oceans rise. I guess the Communists have their secret bases on the Marshall Islands?
I’m reminded of this legendary toilet paper ad.
A spectre is haunting the bathroom — the spectre of really really scratchy toilet paper.
@wwth –
Truth.
We’re either wearing bags / mumus or are being “too provocative”.
“Nah, dude – I promise that I’m not wearing this fitted t-shirt AT you. I’m just wearing it.”
It’s not something that people generally complain about, though, because it comes off as humble bragging or something (and, really – while I know there’s no oppression olympics, there are many much more difficult things to deal with).
But, seriously, large breasts are a pain in the ass.
And back.
I realised I missed out a pretty vital point of my previous comment which was: because of everything I’ve mentioned, workplace relationships et al, it’s possible eloli that your female colleagues don’t like your comments at all but simply aren’t saying anything to anyone about them lest they suffer a loss in popularity/respect/relationships.
@eloli
Sorry, you still seem slimy. Like, in a “I’ve learned really well how to deflect criticism and avoid admitting any wrongdoing” kind of way. The way forward isn’t always to convince people that you’re right, or to present an unassailable position. Sometimes it’s instead to own up to mistakes (or even the potential for mistakes) and demonstrate self-reflection.
Bottom line is: It’s problematic to refer to women as “the view.” You’ve managed to completely sidestep that fact and spiral the conversation into your work behavior. That’s a really big red flag to me, despite how congenial you continue to be.
My job (school custodian) has a rule that shorts can be worn during certain months, as long as they reach the top of the knee. Women’s shorts don’t come that long, unless maybe Talbots still sells those patterned bermudas.
@sunnysombrera, I’m not the one who’s fighting here:
“Dude. You could very well be the office creep but you just don’t want to see it.”
Hey, where I come from, those are fighting words. 😀
Personally, I think you’re still making way too many assumptions, not only about myself, but about the work environment, but hey, if it floats your boat.
Now, this;
“Also, I’m not sexist because I challenged another male colleague on a misogynistic statement!”
I find that pretty offensive, since you’re basically equating me here with a racist who says “but I’m no racist, I have black friends”.
That’s not civil in the least.
I’ll take your points and think about them, but I would appreciate you not putting me in the same level of hateful, bigoted people who don’t have the balls to admit they’re hateful and bigoted. 🙂
Yep, they’re equivalent. Also, your comment is really dismissive of @sunnysombrera.
And as @dlouwe points out, you haven’t addressed our main issue with your behavior HERE, regardless of what you do at work.
– Gaebolga
Based on your examples it just sounds like you’re complimenting style and color coordination, so I’d say a pretty low probability. One thing to be careful of is that designers will frankly discuss the body of the model when talking about clothes in a way that would not be appropriate for other situations, so you should try to stay away from discussing the fit or neckline, obvious stuff like that.
Like Sunny said, some people might begin to feel like their wardrobe is being actively scoped, which can be uncomfortable even in a totally non-sexual way. You don’t need to find something to like about every outfit, if you reserve the compliments for when someone clearly put effort into looking nice that day or when something really pops out at you, then it is much less likely to seem insincere or forced.
@dlouwe:
Fine.
I don’t consider appreciating the beauty of women harmful or something that should be condemned, and I’ll take your point.
I’m trying to get a job at one of the branches in my local library system. The position I’m going for, library aide, has a pretty lenient dress code as long as your clothes are in good shape and don’t put any unnecessary restrictions on your movements. I don’t have the handbook in front of me now, but I’m pretty sure actual librarians are discouraged from wearing jeans unless it’s a casual day and/or your branch manager allows it.
@GenJones, I like that.
Don’t they have air conditioning in Australia? I know in the US women working in an office complain because the fabric of their blouses are thinner/ they’re not wearing layers like the men.
@Emmy Rae:
I don’t find using colloquial expressions problematic, if that’s what’s this all about.
Or at least, not problematic enough to be equated with bigots and racists, like sunnysombrera did.
There, I said it, if you’re so offended by that, well, I apologize, but I think I’m owed an apology too.
Apology for what?
Hi eloli,
You must be new here. In this community we tend to focus much more on the content of someone’s words than the form of them. Civility is prized, yes, but not at the risk of silencing things that need to be said. If you’re used to everyone biting their tongue around you and taking pains to be nice at all costs then you might find what’s about to happen rather bracing.
The contents of your words, thus far, show very little actual respect. People have said things to you that are honest and thought-through, and you’ve laughed them off because it wasn’t what you wanted to hear. We believe that this is less acceptable than mere uncivil language. Again, this can be a shock to people who aren’t used to feminist spaces.
You might also want to be warned that what people have said to you thus far isn’t particularly uncivil by our standards.
Please reconsider the path you’re currently taking.
If you look back you’ll find that I used a hell of a lot of qualifying words like “could” “possibly” “might be”. Like A LOT and I meant every one of them. I know that I don’t know your office or your situation, but I’m trying to get you to consider what I’m saying instead of getting defensive when we criticise your choice of words and apparent behaviour at work (there’s that qualifying word again). You’ve said that you will do though, so thanks I guess.
You made objectifying comments about your female colleagues and then tried to defend yourself with an example of you making an inappropriate comment to one of them. THEN you tried to defend yourself from THAT by implying that there isn’t a problem with your attitude because look, you reprimanded a male co-worker when they made a sexist statement! I simply paraphrased you and yes it sounds a lot like the “I’m not racist but…” schtick, and I’m not actually trying to equate you with bigots (that was an assumption on your part there), since I also don’t think you’re an MRA or anything either. People are complex. What I see from your comments though, is that you make questionable statements then refuse to listen to critique, which has been getting increasingly blunt from both me and other commenters since hey – until now all you’ve done is deflect and defend. Didn’t even acknowledge that you were out of line with the “enjoy the view” comment that started this whole shebang.
This is fun but I have to leave work. See ya later!
Since you’re offered the king of fake apologies, then I in return fake apologize that we’ve hurt your feelings for comparing your subtle sexism with overt bigotry.
Thanks, sunnysombrera, Emmy Rae, Mrs. B, mockingbird, and GenJones; I appreciate your input.
I’ll monitor the frequency and try not to overdo it.
I’ve been THE most diplomatic out of everyone here when addressing you and I’m starting to lose patience. Even when replying to Emmy Rae, who outright accused you of sexual harassment, you didn’t pick a bone with THAT but instead took a swipe at me. And I don’t owe you an apology. I paraphrased what you said and now you’ve read into it something that maybe sounds like me equating you with bigots, but a) I corrected that and b) you’ve ignored aaaaalll the places where I’ve been polite and decided to tone police ONE thing I’ve said, which oh so conveniently lets you deflect and distract from everything I’ve been trying to say to you. AGAIN.
EDIT:: siiiiiiiiigghhhhhh because I’m still in a somewhat diplomatic mood I’ll admit that the “I’m not a sexist but…” paraphrase was a little too strong. As paraphrases go though, that IS how your comment came across to me. “Assumptions” be damned.
If guys who sexually harassed actually got fired women would have to keep asking men to not do it. Often the woman gets fired.
@ Kat
Thanks for the support regarding my communication skills =) I think I’m lucky enough to not know anyone who would deliberately gaslight me, they just find it really hard to accept for probably a bunch of reasons.
The main two that strike me are:
1. they see me as an outlier because it doesn’t correlate with their experiences (especially as we (the people who feel this way) don’t often call this kind of stuff out because we don’t want to be the Fun-allergic feminist or general troublemaker)
2. it is easier to dismiss my qualms as an anomaly than to accept that their behaviour might be considered problematic by a wider audience or that their lifes-worth of well-meant compliments may have been taken badly
@eloli
As regards your worry about raising your daughters; as hard as it is to stand up to friends or family, you might have to take a hard line with them and give them a proper talk about what influences you find appropriate for your kids. I mean, that could sound critical of their life choices but if you explain that you don’t think THEIR behaviour is wrong, per se, but that the world is changing and it might be more appropriate for your children to be adapted to the environment they will later live in, rather than following the social practices of the previous generation.
eloli, just a minor observation: bear in mind that most people here don’t know you. We don’t know your workplace or your workmates and we can’t see or hear you talking to them. All we know is your words on the screen here and now, and your initial comments and your description of your own interactions sound very tacky. That may be an entirely misleading impression; I’d certainly be happy to think it was.
So, don’t feel defensive – if you’re the thoroughly decent bloke you reckon you are (and may very well be, for all I know), just remember we can’t see or hear you interacting in that way. The sort of reactions I’ve just been reading upthread are reactions to your writing, not to your workplace behaviour which no-one here has ever witnessed.
Maybe your workplace interactions are really great; maybe your writing could do with a bit of checking over before it’s launched into a new place where people haven’t got to know you yet.
I do think that small-dick references are a flag that is red in colour in pretty much any context, unless we’re talking about the challenges of dissecting drosophila or something.
Also, sunnysombrera is probably one of the nicest people in the entire world. If you managed to piss her off, that’s probably a sign that you have considered things very poorly indeed.
This.
EDIT:: Dawww thanks EJ!
Can’t believe I missed this:
Turns out yes, it was dog-whistle ableism.
Eloli, if you are interested in continuing to comment here, make sure you thoroughly read the comments policy – particularly the part on “crazy talk”.