Men Oppressed by Sleeves: A Memeday Special Report

Trigger warning: I don’t agree with you 100%

Could we perhaps agree that even as I accept your experience, I’m not required to accept your suggested solutions? You have experience of lots of shitty treatment – that is really bad. But all of us have just about the same amount of experience of making things better.
To be honest, I don’t think that a set of rules stopping people saying things that, according to basic common sense and consideration, you shouldn’t say to acquaintances, is all that bad – it’s just entirely insufficient. Someone asked whether fundamental economic/social change would get rid of misogyny – I don’t know, but it’s surely more likely to get rid of it than some sort of politeness police, right?
(Surely, if harassment is mainly problematic because of the social/power structure that the various parties find themselves in, rather than the actions per se, then fundamental social change and equality *would* get rid of misogyny, and make the sexual-objectification of women a harmless pastime.)

Further, the real worry is the ever shifting lines of what constitutes offensive behavior and the increasingly harsh punishments for infringements of, sometimes, bewildering rules. I don’t want to sound like my father, but I don’t understand the thing about haircuts, or looking at people, or any of the other things, beyond basic common sense good manners, and there is no way I’m ever going to have the time to understand it.
As such, it just becomes one more thing for bosses and those in the know to beat the old dinosaurs about the head with. Instead of trying to enforce ever-changing, byzantine rules, determined no-man knows how, with a fist of iron, I’d rather deal with people on an individual basis, trying to have consideration for other people’s feelings, but in the knowledge that neither party will be forced by circumstance to endure the other if we find them intolerable.

(By the way, I asked a woman when the last time she was harassed in the street was, and she told me that she couldn’t remember it ever happening. So, there must be some other element (location? ambivalence?) at play here, rather than it being a universal female experience.)

Trigger warning: I don’t agree with you 100%

If we ever needed proof that Ruprect is not here in good faith, we have it now.

Hold the phones, he talked to A WOMAN. That makes him an expert.

@Ruprect

Umm…how would the sexual objectification of women ever be a “harmless pastime”? Ever? Dehumanizing and objectifying people is never harmless. That’s BS and you know it.

Fuck you.

Hold the phones, he talked to A WOMAN. That makes him an expert.

And apparently it’s the first time it’s ever occurred to him to discuss street harassment with a woman.

Yet he thinks he’s got the same amount of experience as us at trying to make things better? He thinks he knows anything at all about harassment when today is the first time he’s ever asked a woman about it?

That’s just precious.

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a more ridiculous case of mansplaining in my entire life.

Further, the real worry is the ever shifting lines of what constitutes offensive behavior and the increasingly harsh punishments for infringements of, sometimes, bewildering rules.

Who exactly has this worry? You? Why would you be worried about “increasingly harsh punishments” if you’re not, yourself, engaging in sexual harassment?

I think Ruprect has just revealed himself as eloli, just as many of us suspected all along.

Further, the real worry is the ever shifting lines of what constitutes offensive behavior and the increasingly harsh punishments for infringements of, sometimes, bewildering rules.

The rules aren’t bewildering unless you’re bewildered by the very idea that others are allowed to set their own boundaries and expect you to respect them.

I’m not eloli, but I was inspired by him in the sense that if someone with that kind of attitude can identify as a feminist, the current program isn’t working. It’s all just become a middle management box ticking exercise.

The reason why the sexual objectification of women is harmful is because of the social structure that leaves women relatively powerless. If women were as powerful as men, sexual objectification of women would no longer be especially problematic.

You state this as though it were a fact, but it is demonstrably not a fact. Go home, eloli. Yes, you are sexually harassing women even though you are careful not to do it to your direct reports. It’s not magically appropriate if they are not people you can fire.

Ruprect. Bro. Stop using words you don’t understand.

He is an expert in all words and concepts. The power of the penis makes it so.

I wonder why, in all his infinite wisdom, not sexually harassing women is so difficult and confusing then?

@ Ruprect

Surely, if harassment is mainly problematic because of the social/power structure

The point people here are making is that harassment is a problem generally; not merely when there’s a power differential. Such an imbalance may make the problem even worse of course. Women may have to ‘grin and bear it’ out of fear, for example, of losing their job.

However harassment is an issue at every stratum of society. There was an interesting illustration of this recently when a female politician confronted her online harasser. His motivation was that as a class warrior he hated those in power. However his targeting of male politicians was based on accusations of corruption and elitism etc whereas for women he went for sexual slurs and rape threats. He was quite candid about his reasons for that; he found that the most effective.

Male privilege will always provide a weapon for men to use against women; regardless of any other socio-economic factors at play. You could be the most low status man going, but you’ll always have the power to harm a female CEO by yelling “C**t” at her or even just undermining her achievements by reducing her to a pair of “nice tits”.

You see the point here?

ETA: Ninja’d by everyone. Must type faster.

“I have no idea what to get my wife for her birthday! She never likes my gifts!”
“Did she tell you what she wants?”
“Well, yeah, but of course I’m not getting her that.”

Unrelated to the troll, I do this sometimes :\ like, intentionally not ask what someone wants as a gift, so that i can try to give them an honest pleasant surprise. Spend weeks torturing myself over what to get them, then spend weeks (months/years) afterwards torturing myself wondering whether they actually liked it or if they were just humouring me. Not very healthy! But sometimes I hit the right note, and it works well.

Carry on!

Could we perhaps agree that even as I accept your experience, I’m not required to accept your suggested solutions?

No. As you are not experiencing these issues, have not studied these issues, and do not care to learn about these issues you’re in a really poor place to be a judge of the suggested solutions. We will not agree that you don’t have to accept our solutions.

You have experience of lots of shitty treatment – that is really bad. But all of us have just about the same amount of experience of making things better.

Wow, that’s quite the assumption. What have you done to help make things better? Personally, I have been slowly chipping away at bigoted assumptions in my colleagues by challenging them when I hear them, whether they affect me personally or not. This is a slow process, but I’ve had people thank me for calling this stuff out and I’ve been told that my presence is a positive influence (I of course don’t assume these things; I rely upon others to provide me with feedback). In addition to that, I volunteer to help disadvantaged kids learn the skills they need for college. The program I work with is largely targeted at class imbalance.

To be honest, I don’t think that a set of rules stopping people saying things that, according to basic common sense and consideration, you shouldn’t say to acquaintances, is all that bad – it’s just entirely insufficient. Someone asked whether fundamental economic/social change would get rid of misogyny – I don’t know, but it’s surely more likely to get rid of it than some sort of politeness police, right?

It’s a good thing there are actual experts who do actually know the answer to this, and the answer is that no, it would not. All other things being equal, there is still a gender imbalance in this society. Enforcing these “common sense” rules is important to helping women and POC have a more positive experience, but it’s true that it won’t solve anything. It does, however, help, and your economic fix would not address it in any way, shape or form.

(Surely, if harassment is mainly problematic because of the social/power structure that the various parties find themselves in, rather than the actions per se, then fundamental social change and equality *would* get rid of misogyny, and make the sexual-objectification of women a harmless pastime.)

You clearly don’t understand why harassment is problematic.

Further, the real worry is the ever shifting lines of what constitutes offensive behavior and the increasingly harsh punishments for infringements of, sometimes, bewildering rules.

First they’re common sense, now they’re bewildering? You clearly do not understand this problem at all. Stop trying to solve it.

I don’t want to sound like my father, but I don’t understand the thing about haircuts, or looking at people, or any of the other things, beyond basic common sense good manners, and there is no way I’m ever going to have the time to understand it.

Then stop trying to make this all about you. Also, what thing about haircuts? I have no freaking clue what you’re on about.

As such, it just becomes one more thing for bosses and those in the know to beat the old dinosaurs about the head with.

If you think this is some kind of weapon against old timers then you’re forgetting that women also grow old and yet somehow manage not to sexually harass their colleagues (for the most part).

Instead of trying to enforce ever-changing, byzantine rules, determined no-man knows how, with a fist of iron, I’d rather deal with people on an individual basis, trying to have consideration for other people’s feelings, but in the knowledge that neither party will be forced by circumstance to endure the other if we find them intolerable.

The problem with this is that some outside person has to be the judge of whether a complaint is legitimate. This is why there need to be clear rules. No one is asking for bizzare rules that are impossible to understand, like you can only complement a woman on her hair if it’s the third tuesday of the month and the weather is partially sunny with low humidity and the local sports team did not win their most recent game. It’s pretty clear, actually: don’t treat people like objects.

(By the way, I asked a woman when the last time she was harassed in the street was, and she told me that she couldn’t remember it ever happening. So, there must be some other element (location? ambivalence?) at play here, rather than it being a universal female experience.)

One woman’s experience does not define a gender. No one said every single woman on the planet. Stop with the strawman arguments.