Never underestimate the ability of Men’s Rights Activists to get worked up over the most ridiculous nonsense.
I found the meme above on the Men’s Rights Australia Facebook page, accompanied by this explanation:
Women are allowed to wear whatever they like to work, including sleeveless tops, short skirts, and even thongs. Yet if a man were to wear sleeveless tops, shorts, or thongs you can be sure he’d be sent home from work or even fired. In summer men have to suffer in the heat wearing trousers, long sleeve shirts, and tie. Feminists claim they also care about inequalities facing men so why aren’t they fighting against this? -ms
YEAH FEMINISTS WHY AREN’T YOU FIGHTING AGAINST THIS TERRIBLE INJUSTICE, WOMEN NEVER HAVE TO WEAR ANYTHING UNCOMFORTABLE OR AWKWARD AT WORK 0h wait
Note: I should point out that the “thongs” being referenced aren’t the ones that ride up your butt, but rather are the ones you wear on your feet and that are also called flip flops, at least here in the US.
BONUS MEME: This isn’t a Men’s Rights meme, obviously, but it literally made me laugh out loud.
Apparently the best way to fight communism is to do nothing while the oceans rise. I guess the Communists have their secret bases on the Marshall Islands?
I’m reminded of this legendary toilet paper ad.
A spectre is haunting the bathroom — the spectre of really really scratchy toilet paper.
@edit button
I can never edit from my phone.
@Ruprect
No one is buying your bullshit tone-trolling condescension. Go guilt trip your toes.
@ebt (everyone but the trolls)
I’ve been reading the recent takedowns and you’re all amazing. I shouldn’t be using my eyes this way but I can’t help myself haha
I’m sorry you feel that way luzbelitx.
Are you kidding me with this? You have zero empathy for women who are harassed. You have zero empathy for women’s experiences being objectified, being considered the sexual class. Yet, I’m expected to feel guilty about telling a troll to fuck off because it isn’t empathetic?
Hahahahaha!
This is what misogyny is. Women are expected to be nice and cater to men’s feelings at all times. Your word is always to be taken seriously. But women’s words are always suspect. Our feelings are always irrational. Our reports of our experiences always taken with extreme skepticism by men. And we’re supposed to be okay with that.
That attitude might be accepted in most places. It’s not going to go over well here.
@Alan
We kinda get a lot of Peronists around here, but the usual charge from the conservatives is “Communist” anyway. We do have fluoride in the water. You do the math.
@ POM
Hmm, you’ve really got me thinking here. Intuitively I would go for option one. I’m digesting your points though.
Let me just give you my preliminary thoughts, it’ll help me analyse my reasoning too.
Organising the conference still seems like it’s blokes calling the shots, even if we make sure it’s all women’s voices. We’re still selecting. How do we know who’s best for speaking to, and on behalf of, women? I might think a particular woman is a brilliant contributor in the subject; but I’ve formed that view based on my experience as a man, with all the subconscious biases that entails.
I suppose there could be a halfway house position, maybe outsource the selection to the relevant women’s groups. But is that just a back door route to the first option anyway?
I totally take on board what you say about the heavy lifting; but that’s why I come back to my waiting to be asked, or at least letting the women set the agenda. Happy to do the donkey work but feel less comfortable deciding what that work should be. I feel I just don’t have the experience, being a man, to know what actually needs doing.
You’ve got me thinking though!
Aww someone polished their apologies for me!
It’s cute and I’d almost ask to keep them for the funz but I smell the edge of the cliff and I sense it’s an abyss.
I don’t have zero empathy for a woman being harassed – I think that the way to stop harassment is to have a world where people aren’t forced to work for harassers. If you have unkind people who exploit others, and who are in a position to do so, that isn’t going to stop because you ban some words!
I absolutely agree that we shouldn’t do things that make other uncomfortable in the workplace, that people should be in a position to say ” I don’t like that – stop.” Problem is, I don’t think we are going to get that without serious structural reform.
Then I’m told that in fact, other forms of objectification, other power imbalances don’t matter because… well… just because I can never understand it.
And when I say I’m going to need a bit more convincing… I get a lot of hostility.
I don’t think you’re really covering yourselves in glory here.
But hey – whatever makes you happy.
Your maleness isn’t holding you back from understanding what makes this necessary, your male privilege is. Male priviledge is not the act of ‘being male’, it’s the intangible and invisible benefits you derive without even realizing it by ‘virtue’ of being male in our society.
Like you, I also was blind to my privilege once. Then my sister told me about the street harassment she faces on a daily basis. Then I learned of the issues my friends and co-workers were facing as they attempted to do the same shit that I did and encountered problems that I never did. And so on and so forth. As a matter of fact, this blog is where I’ve learned about feminism, how gender stereotypes are harmful, how to help, how not to help (see eloli).
If ‘listening to the stories of people’ is not enough to convince you*, here’s a game of role reversal that shows you all the interactions that you have the privilege of not dealing with:
*Meta example: You, as a holder of male privilege, are more likely to have your stories and examples taken seriously. There are plenty of people who are less likely to trust the exact same story if its a woman telling it.
It’s really easy. You find a woman you think is brilliant, and you invite her, and whether or not she accepts you ask her, “Who else do you suggest I invite?”
You find an appropriate women’s group. You ask them. You actually hit on that yourself. You listen if some group comes at you and says, “Why haven’t you invited X person with Y perspective yet? Y perspective is important and you should have someone there with it.”
Being asked to suggest a few names for a conference is faaaaaaaaaaaaar less labor intensive than actually organizing a conference, or being responsible for wrangling guests. Do the work yourself. Just don’t center yourself. It actually isn’t hard.
Incidentally, it seems that Ruprect could use a man’s perspective on this. Maybe give him one?
@Alan mainly
About men in feminist spaces, I think you should take into account that men *need* to learn how to let women lead, not only in feminist is social issues spaces.
It’s hard and there are infinite ways of screwing it, but is a larn-from-mistakes scheme.
Peronists say: “Better than saying is doing”
Our issues at urgent and the solution is learnt through experience, so getting experienced is the way to go, and making mistakes is a risk worth taking.
Women, non binary folk, all minorities really, on turn, need to learn how to lead, and the same logic applies. We need to be supported and trusted for leading positions, to be allowed to have our way as further as possible even I it confuses or irritates men, even if it looks “too radical” for the status quo point of view, etc. That’s how we also learn to dream big, and to work to get it.
So the way to support while not obstructing is not a single one and has to be dealt with in a compassionate and creative way every single time.
Bit of a job to do, huh? 😉
As for the last donkey remark, there’s a lot of energy to be spent preventing teh dudes from making everything harder, trying to obstruct or stop or set a hostile environment for women. Keeping other cistraight men out of the way is usually more efficiently done by cismale feminists and allies. That usually is way harder for women because a lot of lashing out and even agreeing on behaving a certain way are done when none of us are to be seen -duh.
Just feeding your thoughts here hehe.
@ lux
You do the math.
Ha, I have been doing! (I’m one step away from having my walls plastered with newspaper cuttings linked by bits of string)
19% of the Argentine population gets fluoridated water. Comparing that to election results it appears that every person who is Communised by the water indoctrinated one other 😉
@ POM, Moocow and Lux
You certainly are!
Moocow, I totally get where you’re coming from. I think it can be hard to separate being male from male privilege though. Even if we recognise our privilege, we still benefit from it. To use the example POM gave and you covered too: I can call out my mates when they say something dodgy, but the worst I’m going to get is “Oh, Al’s doing his PC thing again” and a laugh. Even if I say something to a stranger all I might get is a funny look and at worst a “fuck you” before the guy goes on his way. I expect the experience of a woman who did that would be somewhat different.
And if I raise the issue in more formal circumstances then I might actually be listened to as you pointed out. Some of it might be that “Only Nixon can could go to China” thing. If a man, who therefore has a vested interest in the status quo, says there’s an issue then maybe there is? Whereas a woman who raises it is at best “oh she would say that anyway” and more likely regarded as some radical harpy just making a fuss over trivia.
@ POM
Funnily enough a related thing cropped up recently with a project to encourage kids from deprived backgrounds that they should put be deterred from pursuing a legal career. I was asked to show them round the court and introduce them to people as I’m seen as the proverbial working class boy made good (although I wouldn’t describe my background as particularly deprived). Other people had organised the actual visit though.
You’ve certainly got me reviewing my previous thoughts. I’ll admit to still feeling uneasy about the organising. It still feels like putting men at the centre of things but maybe I can reconcile it by it being a way of saying “I’d like to help. Do you think a conference would be soemtng you’d like me to set up?” I’d feel I had ‘permission’ then and I wasn’t butting in as much. That make sense?
(On a semi off topic note but you reminded me of this. I once had a client go down for murder because he didn’t know how to start the washing machine and the cops turned up before his girlfriend got home. There’s a moral there somewhere)
The workplace is not the only place sexual harassment occurs. As Moocow has already mentioned, street harassment is a big thing. A lot of girls are sexually harassed by male students in school. A lot of the street harassment I’ve experienced has been from men who appear to be lower in socioeconomic status than I am.
Men don’t objectify and harass women because they are in a direct position of economic power to us. They do it because they view women as sexual objects. Because they want us to know our place as objects.
I’d be for a universal basic income which would make it so that no one has to work for an employer that is in any abusive. But it wouldn’t be a magic bullet that would cure misogyny.
Does anyone think Ruprect might be an Eloli sock? Or do we just have two clueless men who think their fee-fees should be placed ahead of all else, while women should never be listened to in the same damn thread?
@PoM
Thank you for putting into words what always bothers me about the episode on every sitcom ever made where the mom gets fed up with the male family members for never helping out and the moral is always that they’re not psychic and she needs to tell them what she wants them to do rather than expecting them to actually have some responsibility and initiative.
@This thread
Yep, and you can always check in to make sure you’re not inadvertently sidelining non-male people, but as Luzbelitx pointed out, you have to do stuff and make mistakes to really learn.
You say you’re willing to be the donkey, but organizing volunteers is really hard, far harder than being a volunteer. Being willing to volunteer is good, and if that’s all you can do you’re not a bad person. You’re a person with resources, though, and if you genuinely feel like something needs to be done, there’s no reason whatsoever for you to sit back because you’re waiting to be asked to work on it.
@PI
That is exactly correct. From my point of view.
—
As a person who presents as male, my default position is I’ll identify as feminist until a woman asks me not to. It all depends on context. In general I would say I’m a feminist, but if I were in a room with only other feminists, and the women in the room said they’d rather I didn’t call myself a feminist, then I would say “okay!”. Other than that, I just wanna eat chocolate and play pokemon.
EDIT: Sorry if that made zero sense. I’m quite drunk/high.
@Alan & POM (et al)
Your discussion reminds me a lot of this PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0UUYL6kaNeBTDBRbkJkeUtabEk/view
It’s a condensed version of a discussion thread about emotional labour. The idea of “Why should I have to ask you to do the thing? Can’t you just recognize it needs to be done?” really hits the nail on the head. I think it should be required reading for literally every cis man (and from what I’ve gathered, it’s a good read regardless).
Alan, I think a really important part is just trying in the first place. It’s smart to worry about putting yourself at the center, because men tend to do that very easily, and that’s why its important to give women every opportunity to let you know if you’re fucking up. Saying “Hey, I’m doing this thing, what suggestions do you have for X, Y and Z? Am I missing anything?” is miles ahead of “waiting to be asked”. If you read that PDF it will I think give you a better perspective on why exactly that kind of stance is not very helpful.
OK – I’m just throwing this out here – so don’t bite my head off – but when I was younger, I sometimes experienced harassment from men and boys (probably of a lower socio-economic class) in the street. Since becoming a middle aged man, a lot less so. So, I don’t think it’s impossible for me to understand how being a victim of that kind of aggressive, explicit harassment can feel (and how no-one much would care). So, yeah, that’s really bad. My suspicion is that telling street bullies to be nice probably won’t work unless combined with some broader social change, or more community policing (as in police).
Regarding the wider social problem, surely the solution is to give women more power, not to create a few additional rules in a system in which women are the lower class?
It’s like, if I was a slave, making sure that my master says please before I have to serve him his wine, but once he’s done that I am obliged to do everything he says, well… that just doesn’t really seem like a good one to me.
@ Dlouwe
That was an interesting article; thank you. I can extrapolate from the specific examples there to the wider picture.
You may have noticed that that’s something I can easily fall into. It might not be deliberate but I can have a tendency to go ‘I know about this, so here’s all you need to know’. I recognise that so maybe that’s why I’m so wary.
It’s so much easier in animal activism. There you can’t be asked so you just ‘do’.
The nearest I’ve come to activism in feminism is with the self defence stuff. With local women’s aid groups that was pretty easy. We were able to say “This is what we can offer. Is that something you’d be interested in?”. That works fine. It was a bit more complex with some stuff we’ve been doing in India. Not only is there the issues we’ve been talking about but there’s that whole colonial subtext. “Hi, we’re British and we’re here to help” isn’t necessarily something that fills Indian hearts with joy. Having said that, that’s gone really well too. But we were very careful to check in with local women’s groups doing that sort of thing first.
Not sure how you think “giving women more power” is going to happen in a society that thinks women are so valueless that their sexual potential is the only thing about them that is worth comment.
Do you plan to wave your little magic wand to make that happen?
Literally no one is making an argument anywhere similar to what you’re saying. We’re saying women shouldn’t be treated like objects. And no, your examples of complementing one’s abilities and/or performance are not forms of objectification.
We know a lot more about this than you do. Stop ignoring everything we say.
An important step to changing the culture so that harassment isn’t such a huge issue is men actually listening to women and not treating everything we say about misogyny with “extreme skepticism.”
Being as one joined just as the other left, that would be some coincidence.
I think two clueless men. Has Ruprect used a single smiley?
I don’t know why this thread, though.
@dlouwe
I didn’t click the link because I assume that’s the epic metafilter emotional labor thread, or part of it. I read the entire thing recently (took several days) and it helped clarify so much stuff that is rarely talked about openly, even among women. As an introverted, socially-awkward type, I felt it had a lot to teach me about why my life and relationships are the way they are. I think anyone can benefit from that discussion.
Why not both? Can’t we advocate for changing the system for the better while simultaneously making peoples’ lives better within the system?