Never underestimate the ability of Men’s Rights Activists to get worked up over the most ridiculous nonsense.
I found the meme above on the Men’s Rights Australia Facebook page, accompanied by this explanation:
Women are allowed to wear whatever they like to work, including sleeveless tops, short skirts, and even thongs. Yet if a man were to wear sleeveless tops, shorts, or thongs you can be sure he’d be sent home from work or even fired. In summer men have to suffer in the heat wearing trousers, long sleeve shirts, and tie. Feminists claim they also care about inequalities facing men so why aren’t they fighting against this? -ms
YEAH FEMINISTS WHY AREN’T YOU FIGHTING AGAINST THIS TERRIBLE INJUSTICE, WOMEN NEVER HAVE TO WEAR ANYTHING UNCOMFORTABLE OR AWKWARD AT WORK 0h wait
Note: I should point out that the “thongs” being referenced aren’t the ones that ride up your butt, but rather are the ones you wear on your feet and that are also called flip flops, at least here in the US.
BONUS MEME: This isn’t a Men’s Rights meme, obviously, but it literally made me laugh out loud.
Apparently the best way to fight communism is to do nothing while the oceans rise. I guess the Communists have their secret bases on the Marshall Islands?
I’m reminded of this legendary toilet paper ad.
A spectre is haunting the bathroom — the spectre of really really scratchy toilet paper.
@7et al
thanks. appreciate you trying to explain …Sadly I have heard stuff like that and still dont quite get it, because I recognize that my privileged objections are almost def silly and wrong, so I dont argue, and that my white feels dont matter – thats the only reason I brought it up, to say EVEN IF you ultimately dont get it or dont agree, just respect how ppl want to be treated, particularly people oppressed in a way you have privilege. Which also is why when a PoC says something about how white ppl suck, I dont get in my feels, whereas I would never tolerate a man complaining about women – bc whites do oppress poc but women are oppressed by men.
Some men find intelligence attractive
http://youtube/9-6bTGZ3DEw
And I still can’t get YouTube to embed here. Sigh.
” we should not care that actual, real, living women are viewed, today, as sexual objects first and people a distant second, if at all.”
We should care about it, but I find it very difficult to accept that one form of objectification is preferable to another. I personally think that the best way to prevent objectification (or at least to draw its teeth) is to ensure that people aren’t beholden to those who would objectify them.
I mean, from what I understand, the reason why it might not particularly bother men to receive a complement from a women is because of the social position that women occupy in our society. It’s not the words, it’s the fact that the men have the power.
I also feel like while, initially, it is trivial to ban certain words/expressions, in the end it’s not really going to change much. Clever, manipulative people will change their language and keep on exploiting those under them. Some people will use the new language rules to exploit those under them. Unless you make it clear that the power relationship is your real target you end up being a part of the problem.
My view is that men should definitely identify as feminists. “Feminist” has been made into a dirty word, and there has always been a meme that feminists are just ugly women who can’t get a man, and their primary motivation is sour grapes.
When men refuse to identify as feminists, nothing positive is accomplished by it.
Now, it is the case that too many “male feminists” manifest their feminist in a fail kind of way, by taking over the space. Sometimes it’s not even deliberate, but just a man with an unspoken and unexamined presumption that he naturally belongs at the center of the space shouldering non-men aside. While recognizing that this is a huge problem, I don’t think it’s a huge enough problem to outweigh the benefits of having the “feminist” identifier mainstreamed.
We also need to recognize the sad, pathetic fact that when a man calls himself a feminist – or anything else – he is immediately taken more seriously than a woman doing the same. Once men take feminism seriously, feminism is seen as a serious issue in a way that does not occur when men treat it as a side issue and only women are feminists.
While that definitely contributes to the men-taking-over problem, and it is a horrific statement of our society’s collective opinion about women and about men, I’m not personally above using that to advance feminism on a more general, societal scale.
Super weird how, if we all followed your position here, issues that specifically affect women but not men would go straight onto the back burner, yet again, in favor of talking about issues that affect men. And then women just kind of come along for the ride.
Bizarre how that works.
What you “feel like” is irrelevant, as are your stupid hypotheticals. The reality is that “Nice tits!” is a categorically different statement from “Nice job on that presentation!” You are completely unmoored from reality if you think differently.
@ POM
I’m happy to say I’m “pro feminist” or that I support the aims of feminism (but it’s for others to judge whether I’m living up to that); but personally (and I stress it’s just a personal view) I wouldn’t feel right identifying as a feminist. It’s like co-opting someone else’s struggle. You get all the kudos but without any of the detriment.
I don’t feel men can claim “We’re in this with you together” when we don’t actually face the same problems; at best we can say “we support you, and if you need any help let us know what we can do”
I stress though, that’s very much my own take on this, so happy to hear from women as to what they think about this (the only view that counts after all)
““Nice tits!” is a categorically different statement from “Nice job on that presentation!” You are completely unmoored from reality if you think differently.”
For me, in terms of the impact they would have on me, the two are more or less the same – it depends more on my opinion of the person giving the compliment and how comfortable I am with the situation, than the nature of the compliment.
That might be male privilege, if it is, I’m not sure anything much can be done to solve the problem.
I think Ruprect is misusing a term here by saying “objectification” to mean “to be valued for”. It literally means treating a person as an object. So you can’t be objectified for doing well at work – it is an act you have committed. You can be objectified by being considered just “the view” or something to look at.
I also don’t see how “Clever, manipulative people will change their language” means anything here. What are they going to do, switch from “That dress really shows off your body.” to “Great job on this presentation!” and have it mean the same thing?
If you are a man, then yes, you’re speaking out of a fucking mountain of male privilege in thinking that the impact of sexual harassment – which is extremely unlikely to ever affect you – is something you can actually judge in any way.
Someone who can be impacted by both sexual harassment and by worker objectification can determine if they are in any way equivalent. Someone who can only be impacted by one cannot, and it is the heights of fucking arrogance to think that if you can only be affected by one, you are in any way capable of judging how equivalent they are.
Okay, sure. I didn’t see anyone here saying “I hate when my romantic/sexual partner says they like my body in X outfit” – the whole point is that in the context of being a woman in the workplace, having a focus on your body is almost always unwelcome (unless you’re a model, for example).
@Emmy Rae
“It literally means treating a person as an object. So you can’t be objectified for doing well at work – it is an act you have committed.”
That depends to what extent you are alienated from your work – if you have to work, it is not so much an act you have committed as a process you have had to submit to.
Ever heard of “human *resources*”?
@Policy of Madness –
I might not be able to comment, but I still have to be convinced. Is the male privilege a social matter, a result of the power structure, or a physical one?
If the latter, can it be solved?
Back to the original post, in my workplace it wasn’t the paper products that turned me communist, it was when we had a water cooler that provided hot water that wasn’t quite hot enough to brew proper tea. They’ve solved that problem though so I guess I am a capitalist again.
@Alan
I can’t – nor would I if I could – make you identify as a feminist. But you made a statement that you didn’t think doing so would be legit, and I am sharing that I think it’s not only legit, but needed.
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm …
I know what you’re saying here, and where it’s coming from. You’re trying not to co-opt or take over anything. I respect that. But the first question that comes to my mind is, “Why do I have to ask you to do this? Why aren’t you doing it unasked?” It comes across, at least a little bit, as an excuse for inaction if nobody explicitly asked you to do this. Like a dude who won’t start the dishwasher unless he’s asked explicitly. Why don’t you see for yourself that the dishwasher is full and start it without requiring someone (some woman) to micromanage you?
There are important things that men can do, and should do, without waiting for women to ask them, such as stepping in when other men voice and reinforce misogyny and rape culture. I’m still remembering here that report you showed us awhile back, about misogyny in the British law profession, the one that spoke about women as being something other than and outside of The Bar, like a wild animal species. Men should notice these things and act on them without waiting for women to point them out and say, “Please do something about that.”
Why do you think you’re so important that convincing you is something we have to do?
@Ruprect I’m not really interested in pursuing this more, because I think Policy of Madness already made the main point:
Personally I think identifying as a feminist is different from identifying as an ally because I see “feminist” as being about beliefs and “ally” being about action. So I prefer men ID as feminist to make the point that that’s what they believe. Which of course does not preclude me saying I think they’re shitty feminists.
@ POM
This is a fascinating and complex subject, and I’m the first to admit I don’t know the answers.
Generally I am an interventionist. Whether that’s on a personal or even political level. I can see an argument in both cases that “we should butt out, it’s none of our business” but I’m reminded that “it’s just a domestic” has so often been used as an excuse for ignoring an issue, from its original meaning to descriptions of military conflicts.
The things you describe like calling out people in the circumstances you describe I’m very happy with, whether that’s strangers or even more importantly (in my opinion) mates.
I’m less sure about the larger issues though. It’s a fine line between ‘helping’ and taking over. That’s why, personally, I’d prefer to wait until I’m asked.
“Why do you think you’re so important that convincing you is something we have to do?”
I certainly don’t think that you, personally, have any particular obligation to convince me that you are correct – but if the party line is that we should structure our society along lines of x,y,z and that because I am a man I can never understand what it is that makes this necessary, and will just have to take it on trust – well, I’m afraid I’m not going to support that.
I require further convincing (though not necessarily from you), if I’m not going to view that position with extreme skepticism.
Or, instead of convincing you, we can tell you to fuck off.
POM already said it, but I’ll say it again. Precisely why should we give a tiny mouse turd about you think? You are very, very clearly determined to believe that sexual harassment is an important issue. I doubt anything could convince you.
I’m happy to try and persuade a fence sitter who asks questions in good faith. That does not describe you.
I meant “not to believe that sexual harassment is an important issue.” The edit button isn’t showing up. Do other people have that issue?
Let’s say that you see a need for a conference on women in the law profession. You have some options:
1. You can bring this to the attention of one or more women’s groups and offer to help with it.
2. You can organize it yourself, being sure to make the women you invite as speakers/panelists the focus and not yourself.
3. You can organize it yourself and make it mainly about men. I won’t describe how, because we’ve all see how that works.
4. You can do nothing, because you’re waiting for women to take the lead.
All of these are problematic in one fashion or another, but #2 is the least problematic. It may seem like #1 is preferable, but what you’re actually doing in that scenario is requiring women to do the heavy lifting for you. You are perfectly capable of doing the heavy lifting yourself without centering yourself, if you just put some thought into it.
Dudes who need to be told to turn on the dishwasher tend to be perfectly happy to do it and not resentful at all, but the women who have to micromanage them become resentful because they have other places they could be spending their time and energy. “I’m happy to do what you ask me but I won’t initiate anything on my own” is a really frustrating position for someone else to take.
eta:
It shows up for me, and I just used it.
“Precisely why should we give a tiny mouse turd about you think?”
How you deal with other people is entirely your choice. Personally, I think it’s important to care about what other people think because without empathy, the world is a bit shitty. Also, when I have what I think is a particularly good idea, I like to tell people it so they can convince themselves with it, later. Obviously, I hope that if the idea is a real stinker it won’t gain any traction.
But that’s just me. Maybe telling people to fuck off is better for you. Good luck with it!
@Emmy Rae
I should coin the term “watercooler unionist” (hmm is “waterheater” a word? Watercooler/heater?).
They would storm into the union meetings (where do yo find more commies than there!?) for a week or two with their fist in the air. Until the water cooler was fixed, or toilet paper replaced, or whatever had made them communists was set right, after which you’d never see them again.
@ Lux and Emmy Rae
I thought water only turned you communist if it had fluoride in it?