We’re still running a meme surplus in the We Hunted the Mammoth offices, so I’m going to drop a few more on you today. Enjoy the FLAWLESS STEM LOGIC and KEEN GRASP OF REALITY displayed in the following memes, gathered from A Voice for Men’s Facebook page. I’ve lightly censored a couple of them.
WE INVENTED THE MAMMOTH TO FEED YOU
Ha Ha! Girls are stupid and can’t do math amirite fellas high five!
Damn you gals for keeping men out of this low-paying profession that men could easily enter if they wanted to because it’s not actually a “hiring scheme” that keeps them out!
THIS ISN’T ACTUALLY TRUE BUT MAYBE IF WE PUT IT IN ALL-CAPS NO ONE WILL NOTICE!
I’ll agree that those are admirable FAQs to have, but not necessarily David’s job?
If I wasn’t so overbooked with work/class/choir junk, I’d start trying to throw those together… If anyone in the commentariat has the time, they’d be excellent FAQ posts to link in the sidebar!
As for the sad logic of the logic trolls:
It seems that the more logical the troll claims to be, the faster they start using lots of logical fallacies and TrueFax from the University of Their Colon.
Or maybe their mistakes just irk me more than when people who haven’t claimed to be SupremeLogicUsers start using terrible logic, because then the MostLogicalTroll’s sad logic is compounded with ClevererThanThou hypocrisy?
kupo
8 years ago
It’s hilarious how he supposedly got 95% on a logic test
Actually, he said he was 95% on a logic test, which is much more believable.
Genjones
8 years ago
No, it isn’t David’s job. I think we have a lot of the legwork done already scattered through comments. I just meant I thought he’s the only one with the administrion authority to add it as an internal feature or to the sidebar of links.
Social Justice Atheist
8 years ago
@kupo
And no one was ever that high before! So that totally proves I’m way smarter than all you meanie feminist meanie-pants and everyone in the world actually and, and…and WHY DON’T YOU SEE HOW SMART I AM I’M WAY MORE LOGICAL THAN ALL OF YOU LOOK AT ALL OF MY TOTALLY FACTUAL STATISTIC-Y STATISTICS FINE I DON’T WANT TO BE HERE ANYWAY YOU’RE ALL IMMATURE 4CHANNERS AND BTW ME AND GIRLWRITESWHAT ARE COMING FOR YOU SO YOU BETTER BE SCARED CAUSE WE CAN TOTALLY LOGIC AND YOU EVIL FEMINISTS CANT AND ARE ALL ABOUT GIRLY EMOTIONS AND STUFF AND WHY WONT ANYONE CONSIDER MY FEE-FEES?!?!?!?!?!?
Policy of Madness
8 years ago
Glancing over the page before this one, I note that Jamie melted down right when he realized that nobody here was going to do all his emotional labor for him. Let’s face it, feminist = female in the minds of people like him, and he seems to be conditioned to expect women to jump in and soothe him the moment he expresses some kind of negative emotion. Self-soothing doesn’t seem to be a skill he’s ever had to develop. His unhandled emotions eventually became too much for him.
Of course, all of that could have been an act, but if it was, it was drawing on the same presumption that women are the world’s unpaid emotional laborers and they are falling down if a man’s emotions ever go unhandled. The idea of men being responsible for their own emotions does not lie within this conception of emotional labor. Ultimately the difference between a faked and a genuine breakdown is negligible, because both rely upon and reinforce that narrative.
eta: I’m also noting how often his complaint, mid-meltdown, was literally that this comment board wasn’t performing emotional labor for him.
It’s funny how damn proud anti-feminists are to be against political correctness and safe spaces because they, unlike those silly SJWs are rational and tough. Yet, it’s they who fly off the handle if someone on the internet isn’t being nice to them.
On the FAQ for trolls; we could do it as a group project. Anyone interested in participating could take a topic and someone could compile everything on a page offsite somewhere and then send the link to David. The only work he would have to do is put a link on the sidebar somewhere.
That’s not all of it. It’s a rewording of Anita Sarkeesian’s fundraiser. Hers is a drive for the video series “Ordinary Women: Daring to defy history.” So he made “Extraordinary People: Daring to actually help women.”
It’s, like, when he’s hit one low point – he strives to go even further down!
@W.W.T.H.
It’s funny how damn proud anti-feminists are to be against political correctness and safe spaces because they, unlike those silly SJWs are rational and tough. Yet, it’s they who fly off the handle if someone on the internet isn’t being nice to them.
It also shows how hypocritical they are – given they’re fond of having their own “echo chambers” even as they admonish others for it. It’s also weird, given many of them are also Libertarians, they dismiss the notion of “freedom of association” when demanding an audience listen to their rants.
I thought like-minded people organizing into a group in order to interact with one another is human nature – but now it’s a personality flaw, according to these assholes, to not indulge and humor every person who gets on your nerves or offends you.
If someone asked me to have a pleasant conversation with a Neo-Nazi, despite being a Jew, because that’d be the “considerate” thing to do – I’d tell them to fuck off and never speak to me again, if I didn’t spit in their face and then deliver a balled fist to their jaw.
I also agree with an FAQ for trolls. Jamie’s numerous wall-o’-text responses, all talking points copy-pasted, was absolutely obnoxious and I’d rather stop having these people derailing conversations for shits and giggles.
Shorter anti-“PC” folks: “I’m against safe spaces, inclusiveness, and everything SJWs stand for! Unless it’s for me, then it’s okay and no one should infringe upon that because then I’ll get upset.”
Redsilkphoenix
8 years ago
Thanks, all, for the answers about the troll sock(s). For some reason I guess I was expecting all those socks to explode the threads they were in to 100+ pages like this one became. Not sure why, though.
On the other hand, this thread was the first time I’ve ever seen the Apex Fallacy out in the wild and knew it for what it was. Though what that should mean, I have no clue.
Social Justice Atheist
8 years ago
@katz
LOL ain’t that the truth?
Tessa
8 years ago
OK, i finally went back and read through the thread and wow, now I feel especially bad for wasting my time typing up that long assed, numbered, teal deer. His meltdown seemed especially out of proportion to everybody’s treatment. You guys were practically indulgent through most of that.
Anyway I am curious when anybody was “casually bigoted.” But the one thing that stuck out to me was when he decided finally post sources after what he admitted was a 5 minute google search (and surprise, it was exactly as helpful as a typical 5 minute google search), he stated: “Well you love your sources, as if you are not going to pick them apart to either criticize them, dismiss them, post counter studies or generally maintain your point of view no matter the evidence”
First he acts as if wanting sources is silly. Second, he seems to think examining sources and countering them with other studies is bad. “Oh no, you are going to have a sourced discussion, how horrible. Why can’t you just take my word for it?”
Last thing:
I was 95% in a logic test, which was the highest ever result, so I am pretty focused on reason.
I’m totally going to steal this! “the highest ever result!”
Anarchonist
8 years ago
Thanks, PI and David. I’m kinda bummed now that I didn’t do as much leg work as I could have with those sources. I sort of skimmed over the first and third linked sources because the claim associated with them was so silly. I’m sure I missed a lot of problems with methods and choice of focus, but life got in the way. Anyway, I think I got the gist of it.
@History Nerd
Thanks for that comment. I had actually compiled a sort-of post on the issue of how many of the studies speaking in favour of there being equal violence between sexes rely on Murray A. Straus’s CTS-model. Since a lot of MRA and other anti-feminist rhetoric is based on so-called “gender symmetry” in intimate partner violence, it is imperative that they reference studies that support that view.
I looked up some of Straus’s writings, and was struck with how much his more current work seems to reflect Jamie’s silly beliefs in that studies supporting IPV gender symmetry have been “ignored” by the larger scientific community. Of course, no mention of the possibility that the Conflict Tactics Scale may be lacking. I’ll have to look into the “independent studies” that allegedly support his view, and whether or not they use his method of gathering information.
Lea
8 years ago
That was a messy little come apart, wasn’t it?
I like the idea of a FAQ page so we don’t have to re-adress the same fallacies again and again.
EJ (The Other One)
8 years ago
I like the idea of an FAQ page but I’m not certain how useful it’ll be; entitled people often tend to cope poorly with the idea that they should be reading what other people wrote rather than having other people read what they wrote.
I’d be happy to contribute to the creation of one though.
History Nerd
8 years ago
Yes, various groupings in the Men’s Movement have been around since at least the early 1970’s. They all focus on what they see as problems involving cultural norms of masculinity. Roughly speaking, some parts of the Men’s Movement are pro-feminist and generally leftist, some don’t take a specific stance on feminism, and some are anti-feminist. The anti-feminist wing took off during the cultural backlash against feminism in the 1980’s and early 1990’s. The anti-feminist ideas also seeped into a lot of self-help fluff.
On the other hand, the term “toxic masculinity” was coined in the early 1990’s by people in men’s groups that didn’t focus on feminism or anti-feminism. They were trying to encourage men to be more responsible in their communities and wanted to create a more positive form of masculinity in contrast to the “toxic” variety.
Falconer
8 years ago
I like the idea of an FAQ page but I’m not certain how useful it’ll be; entitled people often tend to cope poorly with the idea that they should be reading what other people wrote rather than having other people read what they wrote.
It’s cute when the Doctor admits that he gets bored waiting for other people to stop speaking. Not so cute when it’s real-life.
History Nerd
8 years ago
Most of the “gender symmetry” people appear to think there’s a radfem conspiracy to prevent their work from being recognized. I suppose that’s possible (research has been intentionally suppressed for ideplogical purposes in other fields), but it’s more likely their methodology has serious issues. Papers can get past peer review if someone thinks at least some aspect of the resrarch is worthwhile.
mockingbird
8 years ago
@History Nerd –
On the other hand, the term “toxic masculinity” was coined in the early 1990’s by people in men’s groups that didn’t focus on feminism or anti-feminism. They were trying to encourage men to be more responsible in their communities and wanted to create a more positive form of masculinity in contrast to the “toxic” variety.
Do you have a link or two handy?
I’d like something to point to when people lay this on ESJAYDUBYAs.
(No worries if you don’t have something handy. I can poke around, just wanted to save the effort if you knew off hand.)
History Nerd
8 years ago
I don’t have anything off hand. But I’m pretty certain that the people who came up with the term are not particularly feminist/leftist/SJW.
History Nerd
8 years ago
I found references to it on a traditionalist conservative site. Ironically she uses it as an opportunity to take jabs at feminism
Feminists are now in love with the term “toxic masculinity,” but interestingly, it doesn’t seem to have originated with them. It was coined in the 90s by men’s advocates (such as the Mythopoetic Men’s Movement) who were looking to contrast a normal, healthy masculinity with more negative manifestations of manliness. As more and more boys grew up without fathers, and as their struggles were continually overlooked by a world anxious to promote the welfare of women, the stereotypical hyper-aggressive and sex-crazed man became more common and more feared.
It’s ironic that she repeats what feminists have been saying about sex and violence in society and switches over to “take that feminists!” (not a quote from her).
The “Mythopoetic” movement obviously had some problematic aspects, but it sounds like there were some good people involved in it who weren’t misogynists.
Fabian Prewett
8 years ago
@Moocow
I went back to read the Jamie debacle and found your comment on teaching. I could not agree with you more. I don’t know about US schools, but in the UK male teachers tend to be fast tracked into management, even though there are significantly fewer of them. There is a complete disproportion at the top with men filling most of the positions. So much for feminists being responsible for the ‘hiring scheme.’ Of the women who do get the dizzy heights of promotion, it takes them much longer than their male counterparts.
I have a friend who is a 37 year old French teacher. He started teaching at around the age of 24 and within 5 years, not only was he head of year, but head of the entire lower school. He was promoted again and is now deputy head teacher. I’m not saying he’s not a gifted teacher and he didn’t deserve it because he is and he did.
The problem is that there are equally talented women teachers. They don’t stand out from the crowd though and most women deputy heads are much older. In my daughter’s school the (male) head teacher was 41 and the (female), recently promoted deputy head was 57. This wasn’t the result of taking career breaks to have children either as she didn’t have any. So their usual defense to explain the age discrepancy falls flat.
I know this is anecdotal and I personally think that men aren’t fast-tracked men deliberately. Far from women shutting men out, I think teaching is seen as a female profession like nursing, which can put off some male applicants. So those who do apply get the equivalent of a standing ovation. We all bring our own values whether we mean to or not.
One of my best friends is a social worker and when she was self-evaluating how her values impact her practice, she said something very interesting. She found herself giving more praise, admiration and validation to male lone parents for doing the same tasks she EXPECTED of mothers. She made no comment at all to women carrying out these tasks unless they were below par.
Maybe teaching is similar. Perhaps the hirers and firers find it amazing that male teachers carry out tasks that go unnoticed when it’s female teachers that are carrying them out. And even knowing all this, I still want to become a teacher. If it’s a Misandrist conspiracy then why aren’t we (I use this loosely because I’m non-binary, but read as a woman) giving ourselves all the well-paid, cushy positions?
Conflict Tactics Scale, not Survey
I’ll agree that those are admirable FAQs to have, but not necessarily David’s job?
If I wasn’t so overbooked with work/class/choir junk, I’d start trying to throw those together… If anyone in the commentariat has the time, they’d be excellent FAQ posts to link in the sidebar!
As for the sad logic of the logic trolls:
It seems that the more logical the troll claims to be, the faster they start using lots of logical fallacies and TrueFax from the University of Their Colon.
Or maybe their mistakes just irk me more than when people who haven’t claimed to be SupremeLogicUsers start using terrible logic, because then the MostLogicalTroll’s sad logic is compounded with ClevererThanThou hypocrisy?
Actually, he said he was 95% on a logic test, which is much more believable.
No, it isn’t David’s job. I think we have a lot of the legwork done already scattered through comments. I just meant I thought he’s the only one with the administrion authority to add it as an internal feature or to the sidebar of links.
@kupo
And no one was ever that high before! So that totally proves I’m way smarter than all you meanie feminist meanie-pants and everyone in the world actually and, and…and WHY DON’T YOU SEE HOW SMART I AM I’M WAY MORE LOGICAL THAN ALL OF YOU LOOK AT ALL OF MY TOTALLY FACTUAL STATISTIC-Y STATISTICS FINE I DON’T WANT TO BE HERE ANYWAY YOU’RE ALL IMMATURE 4CHANNERS AND BTW ME AND GIRLWRITESWHAT ARE COMING FOR YOU SO YOU BETTER BE SCARED CAUSE WE CAN TOTALLY LOGIC AND YOU EVIL FEMINISTS CANT AND ARE ALL ABOUT GIRLY EMOTIONS AND STUFF AND WHY WONT ANYONE CONSIDER MY FEE-FEES?!?!?!?!?!?
Glancing over the page before this one, I note that Jamie melted down right when he realized that nobody here was going to do all his emotional labor for him. Let’s face it, feminist = female in the minds of people like him, and he seems to be conditioned to expect women to jump in and soothe him the moment he expresses some kind of negative emotion. Self-soothing doesn’t seem to be a skill he’s ever had to develop. His unhandled emotions eventually became too much for him.
Of course, all of that could have been an act, but if it was, it was drawing on the same presumption that women are the world’s unpaid emotional laborers and they are falling down if a man’s emotions ever go unhandled. The idea of men being responsible for their own emotions does not lie within this conception of emotional labor. Ultimately the difference between a faked and a genuine breakdown is negligible, because both rely upon and reinforce that narrative.
eta: I’m also noting how often his complaint, mid-meltdown, was literally that this comment board wasn’t performing emotional labor for him.
It’s funny how damn proud anti-feminists are to be against political correctness and safe spaces because they, unlike those silly SJWs are rational and tough. Yet, it’s they who fly off the handle if someone on the internet isn’t being nice to them.
On the FAQ for trolls; we could do it as a group project. Anyone interested in participating could take a topic and someone could compile everything on a page offsite somewhere and then send the link to David. The only work he would have to do is put a link on the sidebar somewhere.
That, at least, I agree with.
@Tessa
It’s, like, when he’s hit one low point – he strives to go even further down!
@W.W.T.H.
It also shows how hypocritical they are – given they’re fond of having their own “echo chambers” even as they admonish others for it. It’s also weird, given many of them are also Libertarians, they dismiss the notion of “freedom of association” when demanding an audience listen to their rants.
I thought like-minded people organizing into a group in order to interact with one another is human nature – but now it’s a personality flaw, according to these assholes, to not indulge and humor every person who gets on your nerves or offends you.
If someone asked me to have a pleasant conversation with a Neo-Nazi, despite being a Jew, because that’d be the “considerate” thing to do – I’d tell them to fuck off and never speak to me again, if I didn’t spit in their face and then deliver a balled fist to their jaw.
I also agree with an FAQ for trolls. Jamie’s numerous wall-o’-text responses, all talking points copy-pasted, was absolutely obnoxious and I’d rather stop having these people derailing conversations for shits and giggles.
Shorter anti-“PC” folks: “I’m against safe spaces, inclusiveness, and everything SJWs stand for! Unless it’s for me, then it’s okay and no one should infringe upon that because then I’ll get upset.”
Thanks, all, for the answers about the troll sock(s). For some reason I guess I was expecting all those socks to explode the threads they were in to 100+ pages like this one became. Not sure why, though.
On the other hand, this thread was the first time I’ve ever seen the Apex Fallacy out in the wild and knew it for what it was. Though what that should mean, I have no clue.
@katz
LOL ain’t that the truth?
OK, i finally went back and read through the thread and wow, now I feel especially bad for wasting my time typing up that long assed, numbered, teal deer. His meltdown seemed especially out of proportion to everybody’s treatment. You guys were practically indulgent through most of that.
Anyway I am curious when anybody was “casually bigoted.” But the one thing that stuck out to me was when he decided finally post sources after what he admitted was a 5 minute google search (and surprise, it was exactly as helpful as a typical 5 minute google search), he stated: “Well you love your sources, as if you are not going to pick them apart to either criticize them, dismiss them, post counter studies or generally maintain your point of view no matter the evidence”
First he acts as if wanting sources is silly. Second, he seems to think examining sources and countering them with other studies is bad. “Oh no, you are going to have a sourced discussion, how horrible. Why can’t you just take my word for it?”
Last thing:
I’m totally going to steal this! “the highest ever result!”
Thanks, PI and David. I’m kinda bummed now that I didn’t do as much leg work as I could have with those sources. I sort of skimmed over the first and third linked sources because the claim associated with them was so silly. I’m sure I missed a lot of problems with methods and choice of focus, but life got in the way. Anyway, I think I got the gist of it.
@History Nerd
Thanks for that comment. I had actually compiled a sort-of post on the issue of how many of the studies speaking in favour of there being equal violence between sexes rely on Murray A. Straus’s CTS-model. Since a lot of MRA and other anti-feminist rhetoric is based on so-called “gender symmetry” in intimate partner violence, it is imperative that they reference studies that support that view.
I looked up some of Straus’s writings, and was struck with how much his more current work seems to reflect Jamie’s silly beliefs in that studies supporting IPV gender symmetry have been “ignored” by the larger scientific community. Of course, no mention of the possibility that the Conflict Tactics Scale may be lacking. I’ll have to look into the “independent studies” that allegedly support his view, and whether or not they use his method of gathering information.
That was a messy little come apart, wasn’t it?
I like the idea of a FAQ page so we don’t have to re-adress the same fallacies again and again.
I like the idea of an FAQ page but I’m not certain how useful it’ll be; entitled people often tend to cope poorly with the idea that they should be reading what other people wrote rather than having other people read what they wrote.
I’d be happy to contribute to the creation of one though.
Yes, various groupings in the Men’s Movement have been around since at least the early 1970’s. They all focus on what they see as problems involving cultural norms of masculinity. Roughly speaking, some parts of the Men’s Movement are pro-feminist and generally leftist, some don’t take a specific stance on feminism, and some are anti-feminist. The anti-feminist wing took off during the cultural backlash against feminism in the 1980’s and early 1990’s. The anti-feminist ideas also seeped into a lot of self-help fluff.
On the other hand, the term “toxic masculinity” was coined in the early 1990’s by people in men’s groups that didn’t focus on feminism or anti-feminism. They were trying to encourage men to be more responsible in their communities and wanted to create a more positive form of masculinity in contrast to the “toxic” variety.
It’s cute when the Doctor admits that he gets bored waiting for other people to stop speaking. Not so cute when it’s real-life.
Most of the “gender symmetry” people appear to think there’s a radfem conspiracy to prevent their work from being recognized. I suppose that’s possible (research has been intentionally suppressed for ideplogical purposes in other fields), but it’s more likely their methodology has serious issues. Papers can get past peer review if someone thinks at least some aspect of the resrarch is worthwhile.
@History Nerd –
Do you have a link or two handy?
I’d like something to point to when people lay this on ESJAYDUBYAs.
(No worries if you don’t have something handy. I can poke around, just wanted to save the effort if you knew off hand.)
I don’t have anything off hand. But I’m pretty certain that the people who came up with the term are not particularly feminist/leftist/SJW.
I found references to it on a traditionalist conservative site. Ironically she uses it as an opportunity to take jabs at feminism
She goes on to call feminists “misandrist” and make a number of other absurd claims: http://thefederalist.com/2014/06/17/understanding-toxic-masculinity-why-defending-men-isnt-enough/
It’s ironic that she repeats what feminists have been saying about sex and violence in society and switches over to “take that feminists!” (not a quote from her).
More: https://www.reddit.com/r/FeMRADebates/comments/1voxgf/toxic_masculinity_came_from_mens_activists_not/
The “Mythopoetic” movement obviously had some problematic aspects, but it sounds like there were some good people involved in it who weren’t misogynists.
@Moocow
I went back to read the Jamie debacle and found your comment on teaching. I could not agree with you more. I don’t know about US schools, but in the UK male teachers tend to be fast tracked into management, even though there are significantly fewer of them. There is a complete disproportion at the top with men filling most of the positions. So much for feminists being responsible for the ‘hiring scheme.’ Of the women who do get the dizzy heights of promotion, it takes them much longer than their male counterparts.
I have a friend who is a 37 year old French teacher. He started teaching at around the age of 24 and within 5 years, not only was he head of year, but head of the entire lower school. He was promoted again and is now deputy head teacher. I’m not saying he’s not a gifted teacher and he didn’t deserve it because he is and he did.
The problem is that there are equally talented women teachers. They don’t stand out from the crowd though and most women deputy heads are much older. In my daughter’s school the (male) head teacher was 41 and the (female), recently promoted deputy head was 57. This wasn’t the result of taking career breaks to have children either as she didn’t have any. So their usual defense to explain the age discrepancy falls flat.
I know this is anecdotal and I personally think that men aren’t fast-tracked men deliberately. Far from women shutting men out, I think teaching is seen as a female profession like nursing, which can put off some male applicants. So those who do apply get the equivalent of a standing ovation. We all bring our own values whether we mean to or not.
One of my best friends is a social worker and when she was self-evaluating how her values impact her practice, she said something very interesting. She found herself giving more praise, admiration and validation to male lone parents for doing the same tasks she EXPECTED of mothers. She made no comment at all to women carrying out these tasks unless they were below par.
Maybe teaching is similar. Perhaps the hirers and firers find it amazing that male teachers carry out tasks that go unnoticed when it’s female teachers that are carrying them out. And even knowing all this, I still want to become a teacher. If it’s a Misandrist conspiracy then why aren’t we (I use this loosely because I’m non-binary, but read as a woman) giving ourselves all the well-paid, cushy positions?