Today’s another big political day here in the US — lots of primaries, including some that look like they’ll be pretty close. So have a thread to talk politics. Feel free to keep discussing Der Trump in the Trump threads, or here, it’s all good. And feel free to discuss non-US politics here as well. But please, no one use the phrase “Feel the Bern.”
This is the kind of thing I was talking about. It’s very common for presidential nominations to go to the candidate whose perceived turn it is. Although I’d say it’s more common in the Republicans than the Democrats. Yet, you’re acting like this is some sort of phenomenon unique to her and her supporters.
It’s also not unusual for a supporter of any candidate to believe they deserve the office. That would be why they’re supporters.
This post reeks of the attitude that female candidates and female supporters of female candidates are only okay if they don’t get too uppity.
@Brooked, Kupo, and L.W.F.:
Thanks, much appreciated!
@W.W.T.H:
Right. It wouldn’t be a case of false equivalence if I were to say many people feel the same about Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump – though for differing reasons. It’s an incredibly common political phenomenon.
Wait, what? “Deserves to be president?” What the fuck is voting supposed to mean if not (amongst other things) “I think this person deserves to be president?”
Heck yeah I think Hillary deserves to be president! That’s why I’m voting for her?? (Well, if I get the chance.)
Oh, thank god, I’m not the only one who heard a dogwhistle there.
@katz
Great column. I particularly liked this paragraph:
“Democrats have allowed the Sanders campaign to define the Democratic primary as a purity test specifically along the axes he promotes most strongly, casting him as an ironclad progressive and Clinton as inherently questionable and needing to prove herself. Issues where Clinton leans right (foreign policy) are taken as proof that she’s not a real progressive, while issues where she’s left of Sanders (women’s rights) are ignored; meanwhile, issues where Sanders leans left (economic policy) are taken as proof positive of his progressive credentials while issues where he is right of Clinton (gun control) are ignored.”
I hadn’t been able to quite put my finger on what was bugging me about the whole “Sanders is the only true liberal running” narrative until you perfectly encapsulated it.
Not a huge surprise here, but Rubio dropped out.
Obama is a crappy politician, and all you’re revealing here is that you don’t know what a “hell of a politician” actually looks like, or how that differs from being a great orator.
We don’t live in ancient Athens. Oration doesn’t actually get things done.
@WWTH
But he promised he wouldn’t! Are you saying he lied to me!?
Katz,
Good blog post.
I liked the comparison between Dem’s attitudes towards John Kerry’s “flip-flopping” and Clintons similar shifting opinions. I hadn’t really thought about that, but you’re right.
Even if Clinton’s rhetoric has shifted leftward recently because she knows that’s what voters want to hear, who cares? Isn’t it the job of elected office holders to respond to their constituents?
I feel like some liberals want a pure liberal candidate because they don’t want to do the hard work of holding politicians accountable and trying to get progressive legislation passed. It’s like they think if a pure enough candidate wins, progressive laws will magically get passed. But that’s not how Democracy works. Citizens have to do more than just vote every 2-4 years. Most people don’t want to do that.
I kinda feel bad for Rubio, losing his own state.
Since we’re talking politics, Iran had its elections a little over a week ago, and it seems despite the entrenched hardliners’ best efforts, a good many “moderates” (by Iranian standards) got seats in parliament and, perhaps more importantly, the Assembly of Experts (which will be choosing the next Supreme Leader, and relatively soon I think as the current one is quite elderly and not in the best of health). So there’s that. Good for the long term as it opens up the opportunity for actual reformers to stand a chance to run in the future. It’s more of a relief than a victory, an inch out of a mile, but breaking the hardliners’ dominance is still promising.
I love how you just deleted my posts in moderation. Oh well, I guess I know what to expect from this place now (as if I didn’t already).
Good thing I made copies before they vanished.
Ah, looks like they made it through after all. My apologies.
I’m reading you all with deep interest.
I do have some deja-vus (and non-javus) about debates regarding Cristina Fernandez here. I don’t want to draw any parallels with Clinton yet, but I think it would amazing if she won and we could see her in action.
Having a heavily pro-US president now, I’m paying close attention to the development of this election.
I’m going to bed but I’m saving katz article for tomorrow, probably during breakfast.
Anyone else hear a thin, high-pitched whine? If we’ve got mosquitos in here we’d best set up a bug zapper.
I doubt that happened, Vetarnias.
Sometimes there are glitches. I’ve had comments disappear on me before.
David has a pretty hands off moderation policy and will let through anything that isn’t overly vicious or violent and will tend to ban only if he gets emails requesting it.
Get over yourself. Nobody is afraid of whatever truth bomb you think you’ve dropped.
I haven’t caught up with this thread yet, but yeah, there have been some glitches with the comments filter. Either that or I accidentally trashed a few comments instead of lettting them through. But I don’t think it was me. Anyway, they should be up now.
There was also a comment from someone that seems to have vanished utterly when I tried to take it out of the trash, so sorry for that, though I can’t remember who it was who posted it. (Not a regular I don’t think.)
I am so sick and tired of all of the sexism against Clinton. Before you start complaining about her, think about if Sanders did/said the same which side you would be on, and think about whether gender is in any way biasing your opinions (have you ever heard a man called shrill or bossy, for example? Not that she’s been called that here, but a lot of the complaints reek of sexism to me).
@brooked
Yes, strange indeed. Try reading Weirwoodtreehugger’s response to me.
@weirwoodtreehugger
On the contrary, I don’t think there’s anything unique about Clinton — I’ve always thought she was pretty much just like the last two Dem presidents we’ve had, which is part of why I’m not voting for her. It wasn’t Obama’s “turn” (he was a relative newcomer to the national stage) and it certainly wasn’t Bush’s. Is that how you vote? Should vote for their interests, or pass the stick around the circle, in your opinion?
I can’t speak to how others make their decisions, but IMO, that’s a terrible way to vote. They’re public servants and I always vote for who I think serves my interests (as a doveish progressive).
That’s insulting, and reeks of the dishonest tactics many Clinton supporters use to derail legitimate criticisms of their candidates. I’ve never said Clinton was unusually bad for the Democratic establishment, but I think the Democratic establishment is abominable.
You have a right to your opinion, but it’s deeply dishonest to accuse me of sexism for not wanting to vote for a center right imperialist who has helped overthrow democracies abroad. If you put fairness to Clinton over the lives of the innocent victims of Clinton’s foreign policy (or of the innocent people whose lives have been ruined by the criminal justice policies she’s supported domestically, for that matter) then frankly, I really don’t care what you think about my “attitude.”
Don’t you love it when trolls whine about being censored when their posts actually did show up?
False. Although the Dems could stand to do better with them, a lot of Republican white working class voters actually live in red states. Plenty of blue collar whites in blue and swing states do actually vote Democratic. Many that are Republicans are Republican because of things like gay marriage and abortion. That is, they’re evangelicals or sometimes devout catholic. This is not a demographic that can won by Democrats without severely compromising the platform.
Also, when people say “white working class voters” they mean straight white men. Whether you think women should vote for Clinton just because she’s a woman or not, a lot of women will vote for her based on that. Obama lost the white male vote and still won.
But sure, lets ignore that Clinton is popular among women, black voters, and IIRC Hispanic voters. Because all that matters is the almighty white dude vote. Right?
I hate to break it to you, but the angry white man and religious fundy vote are no longer enough to win.
My only big worry with Clinton is that young voters may not turn out. But I suspect her campaign knows this and will work on it.
It always cracks me up when men who aren’t even USian come in here to mansplain US politics to us.
What kind of fucking moron types something like this and doesn’t spontaneously explode into a splatter of bullshit – oh, it’s Vetarnias. Figures.
For the curious, he’s a particularly nasty MRA who’s trolled here before.
David, I think the reason why the mod filter caught his posts is that you stuck him on permanent moderation.
Try again.
I already said in this thread, and many other threads here that I’m a Sanders supporter. Although the behavior of many fellow supporters is starting to make me embarrassed to admit it.
That doesn’t mean I am okay with the misogynistic way Clinton has been talked about and that doesn’t mean I have to think she’s some kind of monster.
That’s cute, considering you’ve been a smug, condescending asshole on multiple threads all day.
If we want people to vote for Sanders, we have to convince voters he’s the best choice. Not go on holier than thou rants about how terrible Clinton is and how her supporters can’t be real progressives. I’ve hardly even heard you say anything positive about Sanders here other than vague things about how he’s more liberal. It’s helping no one. Again, I’m not the Clinton fangirl you’ve decided I must be because I dared disagree with your behavior, but the commenters here who are Clinton supporters are not your enemy. At least they weren’t until you decided to make them your enemies.
Bernie Sanders always seemed like a nice guy to me. I used to listen to the Fridays with Bernie segment on Thom Hartmann every week and he always struck me as a pretty chill and kind person despite his passionate political opinions. I really don’t understand where this vitriol from some of his supporters is coming from.
SFHC, thanks for the reminder.
Vetarnias, I won’t be letting any more of your comments through.
SFHC,
I thought the name sounded familiar. Here was my favorite part of his rape apologia rant
Bolding mine.
Calling Cosby an “alleged” rapist when dozens and dozens of victims have come forward while simultaneously denying the existence of rape culture. The irony. It burns.
Could someone translate this for me? I can only read this as Vetarnias thinking these vanished/not-vanished posts are so amazing that it’s a damned good thing they were saved for the ages.
But when I scroll up, this is all I see:
That’s a mighty big ego you have there, thinking that your opinions matter here.
Please do ‘splain American politics to us some more. I love it when people who aren’t Americans demonstrate so confidently that they know jack-all about our electorate and political landscape. For your next trick, why don’t you ‘splain MLKJr and BLM to us? We definitely need the uninformed outsider perspective here.
Joe Scarborough just ordered Hillary Clinton to smile.
http://gawker.com/joe-scarborough-tells-hillary-clinton-to-smile-more-1765148337
Nope. No misogyny in the way she’s talked about at all. No siree.