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Super Tuesday Open Thread

voteasyouplease_phixr
Wait, why is she using a gun to hammer the nails in?

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Open thread! It’s Super Tuesday here in the US. Discuss today’s primaries, the evil that is Trump, politics in general.

 

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katz
5 years ago

She says it’s fear of being seen as sexist or shamed. Or publicists “leaning on them…And they [Sanders’ Hollywood backers] see what happens to people when they stand out”. In my experience, Sanders supporters do a lot more shaming. That’s anecdotal, I know, plus I don’t live in Hollywood. She does have a point, though. While a lot of sexist bullshit is directed at Clinton and her supporters, one is not automatically sexist just for supporting Sanders over her.

This is really, really anecdotal, but it seems like people in positions of political influence face pressure to support Clinton, whereas regular people face pressure to support Sanders. For instance, Clinton has the vast majority of endorsements, far out of proportion with her actual support, whereas Sanders has the vast majority of Facebook likes, far out of proportion with his actual support.

(Just want to reiterate that if I’m ever talking too much about politics and bugging people, please tell me.)

guy
guy
5 years ago

Neither of those is in any way mysterious. Sanders is a long-time Senator but not an influential one, while Hillary, both through her husband and in her own right, has extensive connections with Democratic party leadership and long-term politicians, so the people giving endorsements are familiar with her. Sanders has massive youth support, especially among college students, and young people, especially college students, tend to use Facebook more.

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

@Guest

I have the perfect option if you’re looking for temporary color in non natural or even silver with a metallic shimmer – check out KillerStrandsblogspot.com and specifically the Boost and Burst line. Those are shampoo and conditioner formulated by a hair stylist who retired from salon work because of an illness that made standing all day painful and impossible. They don’t use any developers and are the only truly semi-permanent hair color enhancer product I’ve found, come in ALL kinds of colors though the pastels and brights require hair to be lightened or blonde for vivid color results. The color ‘silver bullet’ with or without silver mica is good for transitioning hair to grey if that’s what you’d like to do. If you’re willing to bleach your hair you can find a range of options in the same online store and depending on the condition of your hair (if it’s damaged I would avoid the bleaching even with the shorter length that you’ve got because greying hair can be stubborn and bleaching it is not for the inexperienced or faint of heart.)

@Kupo

If you want to go a lot darker try the bayalage and ‘oil slick’ – as shown on a few dark haired models http://www.popsugar.com/beauty/Oil-Slick-Hair-Color-Trend-38293202#photo-38293202

The thing about bleaching your hair is that when you do so you’re not just stripping out any remaining old hair color but *all* hair color, including the pheomelanin and eumelanin. As the hair lightens from brown even if it’s an ash brown it goes to red, to orange, to gold, then yellow/frozen butter. Gold is the hardest tone to eliminate, blorange is 2nd, which is why a lot of blondes need toners and color enhancing shampoo/conditioner even when the stylist has lightened the hair properly. A lot of newbie hair stylists take the bleach off too soon which is how people wind up leaving the salon with blorange (blonde orange) or brassy gold instead of the cool ash blonde or platinum they were hoping for. This can also happen with more experienced salon professionals if they haven’t kept up with the trends or continued their training to learn the latest techniques. However, all those photos on Pinterest with awesome ombre hair (usually credited to Guy Tang, etc) with crazy colors are often created with the magic of hair extensions so keep that in mind. Make sure that you are 100% honest with ANY hair stylist who will be coloring your hair about ALL previous dye and how often you were applying them (even if a pro did the color for you) because there’s nothing worse than not knowing about such factors when formulating and a client in hysterics because of unanticipated results.

Is your hair long or short? Olaplex is a good idea if your hair is already a bit damaged – use on hair in that state is when it has the highest efficacy. The results on mostly undamaged hair are mixed. Some see more breakage once those new bonds formed by the olaplex application (it’s not designed to stick to hair forever) are gone, others see no change in their hair.

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

@msexceptiontotherule
That oil slick looks nice. My hair is a little longer than shoulder right now and I’m growing it out. I dye it at a salon about 4x per year and the last 2 times I’ve done foil highlights. I also blow-dry about 3 days a week. It’s not super damaged like it was when I was using box color, but it’s not super healthy. The main reason I was thinking of olaplex was because I wanted to take preventative measures if I’m going to have to lighten it. But if I go with the oil slick I don’t think I’d need it.

katz
5 years ago

Sanders has massive youth support, especially among college students, and young people, especially college students, tend to use Facebook more.

The numbers don’t add up. The Facebook differential is large but not that large (87% for under-30s and 56% for seniors in 2014, the most recent year I could find). Plus Facebook skews female.

I normalized the Iowa caucus numbers (couldn’t find national numbers by age category) against Facebook usage numbers and found that Sanders should have about 130% of Clinton’s Facebook likes in Iowa. He actually has 250%. And that’s before accounting for gender. For one reason or another, there are a lot of people on Facebook who like Clinton but don’t want to say so.

And I mean, I’m super twitchy about identifying myself as a Clinton supporter online for fear of the reaction. Even here, I’m not afraid of getting attacked or anything, but I feel like there’s an assumption that everyone supports Sanders and I feel like I’m being unnecessarily contrarian or trying to start an argument if I say otherwise. Maybe that’s totally off base, but the feeling is still there.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
5 years ago

@katz

Just spitballing, but maybe younger people on Facebook are more likely to “like” various pages?

brooked
brooked
5 years ago

@Katz

And I mean, I’m super twitchy about identifying myself as a Clinton supporter online for fear of the reaction. Even here, I’m not afraid of getting attacked or anything, but I feel like there’s an assumption that everyone supports Sanders and I feel like I’m being unnecessarily contrarian or trying to start an argument if I say otherwise. Maybe that’s totally off base, but the feeling is still there.

I’m in the same boat. I don’t touch the Democratic primary discussions on Facebook because if I voice any mild support of Clinton I often get aggro “she’s evil, why are you evil?” blowback entwined with endless rehashing of the Steinem/Albright gaffes and Debbie Wasserman Schultz’s obvious terribleness.

I like Sanders, I support him staying in the race and getting media attention, but I think he’s only capable of energizing a very specific niche of progressives. I know that Clinton is a flawed candidate, but I’ve heard people talk shit about her my entire adult life and I don’t need to be lectured about her at this point.

I don’t have the same problem in real life, my Bernie-loving friends know I’m a wonk whose happy discuss this surreal election cycle with anyone.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Katz,
Even though I’m more of a Sanders supporter, I hear you. I knew going in that even if Sanders does well (and he has been) Clinton will win and I don’t mind supporting. I can also understand the perspective of her supporters. Plus, even if I’d have preferred Elizabeth Warren, the prospect of having a female president is exciting for me. I plan on supporting her in the general, and I’m fearing that the mini tide of “Hillary is evil” types we had in here the other day will grow into a mansplaination tsunami in the coming months.

ETA: The misogyny that we’re going to hear both from the right and from brogressives once Clinton becomes the nominee is certain to backfire and turn me from someone who will be voting for her simply because she’s not on the R side into someone who will be enthusiastically voting for. I dislike misogyny that much.

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

@Kupo

All hair dye is going to cause some damage, certain kinds (like one size fits almost no one boxed dye) more than others. Use a heat protection product for blow drying and other styling with hot tools (curling or straightening iron, hot rollers), get trims regularly even if it seems counter-intuitive because split ends cannot be repaired with any products that exist today and they will keep going up the hair shaft until they break off entirely, usually around ear length. Trimming for optimal hair condition is better for growth, hair goes through a specific growth cycle with three distinct and concurrent phases: anagen, catagen, and telogen phases. A little less than 10% of hairs are in the last phase at one time, the first phase affects roughly 90% of hairs and is the active growth, less than 4% of hairs will be in the transitional (catagen) phase. We all have a terminal length which is the max length our hair will grow – the growth cycle is why sometimes our hair seems like it’s shedding more than usual and barring the presence of other health conditions, a little thinning can precede faster growth. Tension on the hair and mechanical friction (pulling the hair back tightly or always in the same spot, brushing) can also cause breakage.

I’d still ask your hair stylist about using olaplex just to strengthen your hair given the previous dye history and use of blow dryer. They may prefer not to use it but they should be able to explain the reason why to you. If they can’t, might want to look into having your hair done by someone else. Not that it needs to be a complex breakdown of all the science of it, just a practical layman explanation.

I also like the oil slick look, but I decided to transition back to the blonde that I am naturally after years and years of dyeing it brown, black, red, etc. My hair is finally feeling and looking healthy, getting near my waist in length.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

Even here, I’m not afraid of getting attacked or anything, but I feel like there’s an assumption that everyone supports Sanders and I feel like I’m being unnecessarily contrarian or trying to start an argument if I say otherwise. Maybe that’s totally off base, but the feeling is still there.

Yeah, ditto. In particular, with the nonsense meme that all Clinton supporters think all Bernie supporters are sexist floating around, I’ve been trying to wrap my pro-Clinton posts in disclaimers… I know that none of the non-trolls here have actually fallen for said nonsense meme, but better safe than fucking up my wording and accidentally pissing off all my friends, right? x_x *paranoia*

(Are there any Clinton supporters here other than me, Katz and possibly PoM? Just out of curiosity.)

brooked
brooked
5 years ago

I guess it wasn’t clear in my earlier post, I’m a Clinton supporter. ::flinch::

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
5 years ago

msexceptiontotherule, if you don’t mind fielding another query on all the hair that seems to have come up – I’d love to know if there’s anything easy wash-in wash-out you’d recommend for short grey hair (some white, some dark grey) to make it look brighter (products tend to be bluish, I think? And while I love the idea of bright/very dark blue, I want to avoid the trad “respectable” blue-rinse look). The silver burst product looks fantastic, but I think getting it here in the UK would be too expensive for me.

If I had loads of dosh to spare and the confidence to wear it, I would so go for the hidden oil-slick!!!! In all honesty, though, I have to confess that the most adventurous thing I’ve ever actually done with my hair was get a no.3 razor cut all over for a fancy-dress party years ago (the theme was “rockstar” – I went as Sinéad O’Connor, that’s how many years 🙂 )

Corbynistas ftw! (sadly I no longer qualify for the Juventud Corbynista :-\ )

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@M:
I’d be a Clinton supporter if I had a vote in the US. As it is I have to content myself with being a Clinton supporter supporter.

@katz:
Your politics geeking is very interesting. Please go on, I really like hearing thoughtful commentary on it.

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

@Opposablethumbs

Try Kevin Murphy’s blonde angel hair treatment (conditioner) and wash (shampoo). I know the blonde part in the name might throw people off, but it’s great for platinum and it tones down any brassy/yellowish tinges that often appear in grey/white hair. Just don’t try to buy it off of eBay, Amazon maybe, but *never* eBay when it’s a product for salon pros and authorized salon sales to clients. The actual stuff in the bottles will be a super dark purple, don’t worry, as long as you don’t use it every day (color adding or enhancing products aren’t intended for daily use in most cases) you won’t be sporting the “little old blue-lady or lavender-lady” style hairdo you’re trying to avoid. Any of the products I’ve recommended that are color enhancers will have somewhat of a learning curve; how long to leave them on depends on how porous the hair is and how much color one wants/needs in the results. Grey hair is notorious when it comes to getting it to take color, but however much time you think you need to leave a product on cut that in half. At least in the first few uses.

Anyone else have a hair question? 😛

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
5 years ago

Thank you, msexceptiontotherule! Earmarked forthwith! 🙂

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
5 years ago

Even Bernie would be considered less left than what I would usually vote for here at home. It’s about time the US had a woman president, but that’s the only thing about a Hillary presidency that I find exciting in the slightest. Actually, that’s not true. I’m also excited about hearing the whining of the Trump nazis AND the regular Republican nazis after election night. And of course Hillary is a billion times better than any Republican candidate.

littleknown
littleknown
5 years ago

Debbie Wasserman Schultz’s attack on Elizabeth Warren’s CFPB, and support for payday lending loansharking, has soured my Clinton support slightly. (Being that Schultz is the DNC chair and a strong ally of Clinton.) Generally, I’m willing to give Clinton the benefit of the doubt on the “tied to Wall Street” charge, but things like that make me nervous that she would not stand with the Sanders/Warren bloc of the party on those issues.

That said, the fact that Sanders polls well above both Rubio and Cruz head-to-head, but Clinton polls neck-and-neck, is disturbing to me. Any charge that Clinton is too conservative on an issue can be made tenfold (or a hundredfold) against either of those two. Why anyone would vote for Sanders over those two, but not Clinton over them, is beyond my understanding.

That’s not even considering what a Rubio or Cruz presidency would do to the Supreme Court. The fact that Alito and Roberts can suggest with a straight face that all of the abortion clinics in Texas coincidentally shut down at the same time as HB2 was introduced is an argument that is beneath the dignity of the highest court in the land. Kudos to RBG for making Keller crawl away with his tail tucked between his legs, exposing Texas’ intent masterfully. Hopefully, her message got through to Kennedy.

Tragedy of the Commas
Tragedy of the Commas
5 years ago

@ katz

That may be “really, really anecdotal”, but it makes sense to me. I can see how a delegate, for example, could be pressured to support Clinton.

If anyone’s curious, while I voted for Sanders in my state’s primary, I’ll happily vote for Clinton in the general election (should she get the nomination). As in my previous comment in this thread, I don’t think she’s Satan incarnate and I don’t think Sanders is uncriticizable.

My experience has been similar to brooked’s, wwth’s, and SFHC’s. Sanders, unfortunately, can really bring out the small but loud righteous progressive purists. Similar to how those who’re not anti-GMO can be ridiculed by those who are. (Because every person who isn’t anti-GMO is a paid shill, doncha kno?) Charles Blow wrote a column on people who condescendingly explain to black voters why they should support Sanders. It’s worth reading. (Blow has been critical of both Clinton and Sanders, and supporters of both, fwiw.)

Side note, if you want to read some interesting thoughts on why African-American voters have mostly supported Clinton over Sanders, same for Latino and I think Asian-American voters too, Jamil Smith and Jeet Heer at The New Republic have written some good articles on that.

Hu's On First
Hu's On First
5 years ago
Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
5 years ago

Kanye West could genuinely (no joke) be the Republican nominee in 2020.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@IP:

http://16005-presscdn-0-36.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/hillary.jpg

I’d love to see a source for that. It isn’t that I disbelieve you – nothing’s beyond disbelief, not now – but that I want to share it as widely as possible whilst laughing as hard as I possibly can.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

Makes sense to me. What’s more Republican than a fiscally-useless, hypocritical rape denier who won’t let women speak? =P

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
5 years ago

@EJ

Source for what, the Kanye thing? That’s just speculation on my part, based on the following facts:

– Kanye has promised to run for president in 2020

– Kanye has endorsed Trump in this election cycle

– The GOP clearly loves a guy with an overblown ego, childish rhetorics, and someone who gets into petty fights on Twitter

– The GOP clearly appreciates name recognition more than knowledge of policy, competence, actual plans, etc

– Kanye might be the best black friend they’ll ever have a shot at

– His wife is tremendous, frankly she’s the best, everybody knows it, and frankly she is great frankly

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

That’s a good point: there’s a pattern there.

2008: Romney endorses McCain, Bush doesn’t, McCain loses.
2012: Trump endorses Romney, McCain doesn’t, Romney loses.
2016: West endorses Trump, Romney doesn’t, Trump loses.
2020: ? endorses West, Trump doesn’t, West loses.

Each year the previous Republican is horrified by the current one, and the future one supports them. It’s almost as if they’re circling a plughole.

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
5 years ago

The Duck Dynasty guy will endorse Kanye.

EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

That’s Voltaire’s Prayer right there, isn’t it?

Scildfreja
Scildfreja
5 years ago

@WWTH,

mansplaination tsunami

tsumani?

guest
guest
5 years ago

@msexceptiontotherule Thank you! That stuff does look terrific–as opposablethumbs said it doesn’t appear to be available in the UK, but I’ll ask a friend in the US to bring some over. My hair isn’t damaged (I don’t do anything to damage it!) but I’m not interested in getting into the whole bleaching thing. I’ll buy a couple of B&B colours and see how they work.

@opposablethumbs What region are you in? If you’re near enough and interested, I can share what I get with you. I’m looking at various blues just because I look good in blue/gray, but now I’m thinking about what you said about blue being associated with old women, and am having second thoughts….

katz
5 years ago

I would watch the hell out of a debate with Kanye West. That is all.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
5 years ago

Hi guest, that’s extremely kind of you! But no, as I shall probably hesitate for several decades before actually making my mind up 😉
(I’m in the Great Wen/The Smoke) I’m thinking I might give the Kevin Murphy stuff that msexceptiontotherule mentioned a try, as it looks easy to get hold of some. I guess it might not be too complicated to use like once a month or so (with hair as short as mine I’m hoping one small bottle could last me a year).

Let us know how it goes with the B&B, though – their photos look amazing 🙂

Yeah, I love the idea of colouring (and have toyed with the idea off and on for ages) but in reality I’m not so much low-maintenance as no-maintenance-whatsoever 😉

It’s not fair that subtle blues might (and knowing my luck, would) go straight into a respectable blue-rinse look! My Spawn#1 has sensibly gone for the occasional burst of proper bright purple, which is just the thing for the young person-about-town (or about the countryside, of course). But (if I had a completely different hair type from the one I actually have on my head) I could dream of having an iridescent petrol-slick rainbow …

sparkalipoo
sparkalipoo
5 years ago

I think BernieBros are either republican trolls or paid Clinton aides…

And it’s Elizabeth Warren’s fault that Bernie lost Massachusetts.

That’s funny because I’ve encountered a lot of Bernie supporters who when accused of sexism will say that they like Warren to prove that they can’t be sexist.

I also find it hypocritical of Bernie supporters to point to examples of Clinton supporters saying sexist things to argue against Clinton without doubting their support for Hillary but when Clinton supporters do the exact same thing about Bernie supporters, it must be a conspiracy to discredit Bernie

Viscaria
Viscaria
5 years ago

It’s funny to see people talking about the oil slick look, as I guess it’s been A Thing for a few months but I only discovered (and fell in love with) the style this past weekend. In a world where I didn’t have a staid office job and I wasnt unbelievably lazy with my hair, I would love to give it a try.

Edit: my mom, who is much less cool than you are, opposablethumbs, would be quite appalled if I did.

sparkalipoo
sparkalipoo
5 years ago

It’s a little odd to hear Sanders described as “outside the establishment” though. Because he’s been a member of Congress, regardless of his party affiliation, for over two decades now. He and Clinton voted the same as senators, more often than not (although with important differences, like over the Iraq War, which matters to me because it took courage to go against the beat of the war drums in Congress back then). And that one crime bill Clinton rightly gets flack for, Sanders supported when he was in the House.

This so true and one of the things that annoys me about Bernie supporters is that there criticisms of Clinton as being a carrier politician and supporting policies because they are popular are also true of Bernie (especially when it comes to gun control), so it just makes them look like they’re knowledgeable about the candidate that they support.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

Quick query for our USian friends.

If by some horrible set of circumstances Trump does become president, how many of you will volunteer as Tribute for your District?

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

@Alan

Hey now, I’m not voting for Trump even if it comes down to medieval torture from those (not so) friendly neighborhood republicans trying to change my mind, but I don’t plan on going all heroic volunteer. Being a homeowner means having to stay put unless/until there’s a plan and a place to go to, maybe I’ll send the s/o outside to start digging a moat. For protection. And the alligators. (can’t have a moat without alligators or sharks, I’m going with alligators…and maybe sharks too. It’ll be a really big moat. Promise!)

@Guest, @opposablethumbs:

Happy to help, just no showing up at my door. I spent the afternoon helping a friend who literally showed up on my doorstep with a hair color disaster thanks to box dye! With the chaotic state my house is in, furniture all moved into the center of the room and everything that was in cabinets piled on top of furniture, she’s lucky I could find the stuff I needed to fix her hair disaster. And she’s lucky I was even home, if this were Sunday I’d already have gone to check in at the hotel with the dog and the s/o, painters arrive Monday and we have to be gone until Thursday.

Tragedy of the Commas
Tragedy of the Commas
5 years ago

@ Alan

If those of us Americans who’re to be “volunteered” as tribute shout for armed revolt, do you think we’ll have our 2nd Amendment rights revoked?

@ sparkalipoo

Yeah, I know what you mean. That Sanders voted for the bill only Clinton catches flak for is kind of ironic; although he never went on to refer to “super predators”. The comments section to the Mother Jones piece in the bit you quoted? The most upvoted one claims the writer is biased for talking about Sanders’ voting record with a critical eye. Even talking factually about his votes or things he’s said is evidence of being pro-Establishment, apparently. But if actions count more than words and promises, why not look at his legislative record too? (MJ has devoted space to being critical of Clinton too, fwiw.)

There’s other stuff that dims the Perfect Revolutionary™ glow a bit. Sanders called Planned Parenthood part of The Establishment, for some inexplicable reason. And he supports drone strikes when used “selectively and effectively”. Both have made racially insensitive remarks.

I still like Sanders’ message and his integrity (e.g. his donors are not big corporations or groups like the Koch brothers). But we’re voting for a president, not a monarch; you know? If he got into office, my (completely unscientific and entirely opinionated) suspicion is that those who’ve made him into a progressive messiah would be as disappointed in him as they have been in Obama.

Anyway, I look forward to my Establishment Shill™ check next Tuesday.

katz
5 years ago

The thing I notice about the establishment is this.

In 2008, Obama didn’t have a long political career, and he was cast as being way too inexperienced to lead. (I remember conversations that were very adamant that it had nothing to do with his race — it was all about experience.)

Same year, Palin didn’t have a long political career, and she was cast as being way too inexperienced to lead.

Now Clinton’s got a really long political career, and…suddenly that’s a bad thing.

Now, partly it’s just that times have changed, but it does seem like white dudes have an ability to cast whatever background they happen to have as a good thing, while women and minorities don’t have the same luxury.

guy
guy
5 years ago

Nah, all candidates always try to cast their background as a good thing and their opponent’s background as a bad thing, and both arguments have a long history of being used against white dudes. You see both attacks on the Republican side as well, though this year they’ve pretty much conceded that their voters do not think highly of experience at the moment. People with long political careers (“Washington insiders” is the standard term) try to cast themselves as having the experience to get things done, people with short political careers (“Outsiders”) try to cast themselves as not beholden to established interests and willing to challenge the standard way of doing things.

Times change; Obama won by banking on his status as a relative newcomer to a government people viewed as having failed, and Clinton is betting on her long experience appealing to voters as someone who can get things done. Clinton is winning at the moment, so it’s apparently working. She lost last cycle because voters wanted a change; this cycle the majority seems to want to stay the course. That’s inverted on the Republican side, which is why McCain was nominee in 2008 and it looks like Trump has this year in the bag. And in 2008 both picked the opposite for their running mates to appeal to people who weren’t too sure about their record or lack thereof.

guest
guest
5 years ago

@opposable thumbs I’m in the southwest, but come up to London every once in a while. I think I might end up wimping out–am going to get a couple shades of blue but also a couple shades of blonde, since it occured to me blonde highlights might look nicer (particularly in summer, when I usually get a super tan) than gray ones 🙂 I agree with you about the oil slick colours–was showing to a friend last night with dark hair and we both oohed and aahed–I hope she does it, it will look great on her.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
5 years ago

@Viscaria

less cool than you are, opposablethumbs

You’re very kind! But eh, I probably just have a different set of less-coolnesses :-s
You’d have to ask the Spawn 😀

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
5 years ago

msexceptiontotherule, no doorstepping, I promise 🙂

guest Oh, Spawn#1 is in the southwest – currently doing Adulting 101 (v proud of them). Blue-and-blonde sounds lovely with a tan (you mean you get enough sun in the southwest for a tan?!?!?! 😀 )

guy

all candidates always try to cast their background as a good thing and their opponent’s background as a bad thing

Yes – but this is also reminding me of an experiment I read about (I can’t remember where, but I suspect this will be familiar to a lot of people here): volunteers were asked to form a discussion group to talk about hiring candidates for a job (under the impression that the experiment was looking at something else, such as dynamics within the group itself) – two resumés, with different sets of characteristics (experience vs. academic qualification, iirc), were matched with two different identities, one a man and the other a woman. You can guess what happened; whichever resumé was allocated to the male “candidate”, those were the characteristics that the discussion groups overwhelmingly tended to argue were the important ones for the job in question. If the male photo was on the “experience” resumé, experience was what the job needed; if the male photo was on the “qualifications” resumé, qualifications were what mattered most.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
5 years ago

PS I may be mis-remembering, but I’m pretty sure that the same thing happened where one candidate is a PoC and the other is white.

guest
guest
5 years ago

@opposable thumbs I just moved to the southwest a few months ago…from the northeast! I do tan really well (I’m a native Californian, that is our superpower)–people always ask me what exotic locale I holiday in, and the answer is that I spend a lot of time at my allotment. I don’t actually know how it’ll work out down here in the gloomy south, but am crossing my fingers.

I do remember the experiment you’re referring to–I think I saw it in a book about irrational thinking (e.g. Ariely) as evidence that people tend to make their decisions first, then develop a framework of logical argument to justify them.

Viscaria
Viscaria
5 years ago

I should say that my mom is one of my very favourite people in the whole world, and she definitely understands that my hair is on my head and is therefore completely under my control. I didn’t mean to be unkind to her and I wish I’d phrased that a bit better! She just has a thing about how in order to be taken seriously you must look like a serious person. She worries, because that’s what you do I guess, even when your kids are old and out of the house and all that jazz.

I found this rather subtle variation yesterday and I wonder if I could pull that off at work! I’ve got a hair appointment next week, so maybe I’ll ask the stylist what she thinks.

guy
guy
5 years ago

I won’t deny that some of the people making the argument are using it to justify their own prejudices, but we’d be seeing exactly the same arguments if all the candidates were white men, though probably not from all the same people. Candidates play the hand they’re dealt and must convince voters that the differences between them and their opponents make the candidate the best choice. And minorities can turn their background into an advantage too; being new to Washington was why Obama was “Change we can believe in.” Likewise, Hillary supporters believe her experience is a good thing.

Sanders is actually in position to make a legitimate claim for the status of “experienced outsider” to have his cake and eat it too. He’s been in the Senate for quite a while, but he’s not really linked with the larger power structures, as evidenced by how overwhelmingly the party leadership backs Hillary.

There’s some subtleties to both Sanders’s voting record and Hillary’s fundraising, such that they’re not as clear-cut as their opponents would like. First, since Sanders isn’t a major leader, he hasn’t been in a position to decide what bills look like when they reach the floor. The crime bill that the Hillary clip is about and that he voted for was an omnibus and included the Violence Against Women Act and the Federal Assault Weapons Ban among other things; his vote proves only that he thought the bill passing was better than it failing. On Hillary’s side, companies actually donate to candidates who do things that the companies don’t like all the time. They’re hoping to get input on a bill regulating them rather than fight it and have one that they don’t have input on passed. All the donations mean is that the companies like the bills that the people they donate to present more than the ones that would be presented if the companies didn’t donate to anyone. And that’s why Oregon’s two largest power companies backed a bill that requires them to completely phase out coal by 2030, because it was that or face a ballot initiative.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
5 years ago

@Viscaria

She worries, because that’s what you do I guess, even when your kids are old and out of the house and all that jazz.

I CONFIRM THIS R TRUE. (I have 1 spawn out of the house, 1 at home; I worry about both. I try to restrain myself. I fail. Try again, keep trying, keep failing but well, maybe fail a little better each time, at least I hope so 🙂 )
That photo you linked is stunning.

@guest, I hope the southwest is treating you well! In theory you’re now supposed to get a bit more sun but exactly the same amount of rain as in the northeast – except dumped on you in occasional great big torrential dumps instead of constant drizzle all the time 🙂

katz
5 years ago

Guy: You’re very good at thinking of explanations for everything other than sexism, but is that really a very productive use of your time? The whole reason sexism is so hard to eradicate in real life is that of course most people don’t just say “I won’t hire/vote for her because she’s a woman.” It’s always couched in plausible deniability so it can be explained away as something that’s totally not related to gender/race.

guy
guy
5 years ago

You started this discussion by saying

Now, partly it’s just that times have changed, but it does seem like white dudes have an ability to cast whatever background they happen to have as a good thing, while women and minorities don’t have the same luxury.

and I responded by pointing out that minorities absolutely can cast whatever background they happen to have as a good thing as evidenced by how Obama did exactly that and Clinton is in the process of doing the same, and white dudes absolutely can have their background cast as a bad thing. The second point is evidenced by how thoroughly Jeb lost despite massive financial backing because he was seen as being too tied in with the establishment and big business, like Clinton. A female candidate being subjected to exactly the same attacks a male candidate would get is not indicative of sexism.

You might as well have said “it does seem like white dudes get to cite whatever position they have on global warming as a good thing, while women and minorities don’t have the same luxury” and cited Clinton and Palin as examples. That would make precisely as much sense, because they’re both women, hold different positions on global warming, and get criticized for them by political opponents with different positions and that could be a cover for sexism. So I ask you: would making that global warming argument be a productive use of your time? And no, being a divide within the democratic party doesn’t change this because a lot of the people who criticized Obama’s inexperience last time are endorsing Hillary again this time.

OoglyBoggles
OoglyBoggles
5 years ago

So, Bernie won three states today. Just wanted to talk about how great that is and all.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Guy: You’re very good at thinking of explanations for everything other than sexism

Same goes for racism, as evidenced by the Ghost in the Shell conversation in the latest Ghostbusters thread.