Super Tuesday Open Thread

@leftwingfox

It’s interesting they didn’t mention Robert Altemeyer at all, as his work on The Authoritarians was relatively popular during the Bush “You’re either with us, or with the terrorists” phase and the rise of conservative media.

I am familiar with Altemeyer and from what I can tell this group and he split at some point on the details. The fact he isn’t name checked at all makes me think that there is probably some interesting personal research conflict going on there. (Because honestly, the core analysis isn’t widely different.)

That said, I do want to read Stenner’s book in 2005. (I suspect there is probably more direct reference to Altemeyer there.)

I don’t think anything in this analysis disavows left-wing authoritarianism. Even Altemeyer (despite calling it Right-Wing) pointed out that it actually doesn’t have to do with traditional right wing and left wing splits. It has to do with status quo and destabilization. In the US, this has mostly manifested in a particular form of right wing racism, but it doesn’t have to in other contexts. (I am hoping Stenner’s book goes into that.)

The article makes a direct link between authoritarianism and wanting to maintain the status quo on a social level and charts correlations between authoritarianism and right-wing social positions; it therefore implicitly rejects the possibility that the same overall impulse could coexist with a movement to make a large-scale change to the perceived status quo, such as communist revolutions or the French Reign Of Terror. I agree with its analysis of Trump’s support base but do not agree with its analysis of the nature of the causes; it fails to explain popular authoritarian regimes imposing state atheism in previously religious countries. While similar in effect, that cannot reasonably be explained as targeting an out-group, because it targets a group that many of the regime’s supporters were part of before it came to power.

I don’t think they’ve really gotten to the root of the phenomenon; they’ve described how it is manifesting in this case.

My view, personally, is that authoritarianism plays to people’s fears and presents a dramatic, straightforward solution of some form, and its appeal is very widespread. It’s just that Trump’s supporters are the only people who are sufficiently afraid at the moment.

I just wanted to clarify that while I do like Bernie’s policies, some of his supporters (white ones specifically) do tend to whitesplain to black Hillary supporters why they are wrong for liking Hillary, and tell them who they “should” vote for instead AKA Sanders.

And Berniebros are definitely a problem. Bernie’s campaign is not perfect, but I do happen to agree with his policies more so than Hillary. I know however, that that doesn’t mean he has most of the black community’s support and that I am in the minority. I understand why more black voters will vote for Clinton, and I am willing to accept that she will probably win the primary. She’s a hell of a lot better than Trump, that’s for sure. I would prefer that Bernie wins, but he most likely won’t so I will be cheering Hillary on when/if she wins the primary.

Anyway, it’s too late for me to still be up right now. Ugh. 🙁 Goodnight everyone!

I just wanted to clarify that while I do like Bernie’s policies, some of his supporters (white ones specifically) do tend to whitesplain to black Hillary supporters why they are wrong for liking Hillary, and tell them who they “should” vote for instead AKA Sanders.

Yeah, that’s all I meant to be getting at; I hope I didn’t come across like I was telling you that you shouldn’t support Sanders because you’re black or anything like that. Just that white people shouldn’t tell minorities who’s the best candidate on race issues, and men shouldn’t tell women who’s the best candidate on gender issues.

@lightcastle

Another theory on what’s going on with Trump.
http://www.vox.com/2016/3/1/11127424/trump-authoritarianism

This seemed obvious to me, Trump talks like my “demon”. That tourettic “presence” feels like an authoritarian (it feels like I think in manifestos) and when I describe myself as having an authoritarian psychology I have to dial this back and let it “leak out” in the moments when it is appropriate, after all there are times when one should be authoritative. This bit especially stands out,

Trump’s specific policies aren’t the thing that most sets him apart from the rest of the field of GOP candidates. Rather, it’s his rhetoric and style. The way he reduces everything to black-and-white extremes of strong versus weak, greatest versus worst. His simple, direct promises that he can solve problems that other politicians are too weak to manage.

And, perhaps most importantly, his willingness to flout all the conventions of civilized discourse when it comes to the minority groups that authoritarians find so threatening. That’s why it’s a benefit rather than a liability for Trump when he says Mexicans are rapists or speaks gleefully of massacring Muslims with pig-blood-tainted bullets: He is sending a signal to his authoritarian supporters that he won’t let “political correctness” hold him back from attacking the outgroups they fear.

This, Feldman explained to me, is “classic authoritarian leadership style: simple, powerful, and punitive.”

That is my “demon”. But it is a tool and it is one can can be used without dehumanizing people. Things can be reduced to maximally simple, streamlined versions with the fewest number of complications.

I am also willing to abandon typical standards of discourse under specific circumstances and can do so like flipping a switch, totally unapologetically and unashamedly. In fact I’ve discovered that this is often what one does when pointing out racist or sexist behavior because the person you point that at acts like that “is just not done”. Damn but we white people and definitely many of us white males can be weak and whiny.

But it’s an odd kind of authoritarianism that is not quite like what is normally thought of. In fact in anthropology this is the closest that I have found to what I feel like (the broader category of “clown society” has similarities too).

More from the article.

Authoritarians, we found in our survey, tend to most fear threats that come from abroad, such as ISIS or Russia or Iran.

That certainly would seem to be consistent with a kind of Sam Harris fan in atheism. They seem clearly xenophobic and bigoted to me and maybe they got “activated”.

While these authoritarians are as a whole very action oriented I have found some flaws when I have to deal with them. All those black and while, qualitative statements about people and groups do not come with any real substance demonstrating solidity to their fear. I have never gotten my parents to get specific about what gay marriage will do to society. I can’t get others like them to explain why I should fear foreign terrorists when the local right-wing, often (but not exclusively) christian type are objectively a greater threat. I have similar instincts that I have to manage and they tend to be disappointed at their ability to detect and explain threats. There are places where their emotional armor can be dismantled and if they had to “survive in the wild” they would not last long.

Very interesting article, but I think that in the long run the things that one can be authoritative about will be more diverse than this.

OOOOO!!
Trump cheat sheet!
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-practice/201301/50-common-cognitive-distortions

@Kat

How are you able to dial it back and let it just leak out? I assume that not all those with Tourette’s can do this?

I can do it from a life time of effort of having to constantly push against it, and now that I think I know what it is I can try to harness it.

I think that we all can do it, and probably do to an extent. Society shapes how it turns out, what gets emphasized and it’s not all in the motor areas. In fact sex and aggression boundary issues are very common complaints from parents of children with TS so what ever triggers a dominance display we have to get control of. Having TS is like having that part of you that reacts in an instant to a crisis (like seeing a spider on your arm, or something starts to fall) always switched on. But the nice part is that positive emotions have their own “fight or flight” versions so there is that.

Also, do you think that Howard Stern has Tourette’s? I’m just curious.

I’m not sure. I’ll have to do some sleuthing tomorrow. For now I will just say that our social stereotype is complicated and is often used by others in ways that make sense to me. But part of that complexity is born from how fear and humor are related, and I have some times found that convenient so I don’t complain as often as I should. It oddly gives me some privileges in text.

I really appreciate people with privilege who use it for the betterment of all. It’s my intention and goal to use my own privilege to help others.

It’s very tricky. I just hope that I am getting the hang of it.

@Brony, Social Justice Cenobite
I clicked through and found it very informative. Thanks!

I believe it was “This American Life” that had a segment about a guy with Tourette’s some time ago. It was quite interesting. The guy had a lot of moxie.

I’m really, really fed up with the whole “BernieBros” meme. Glenn Greenwald article about this: http://theintercept.com/2016/01/31/the-bernie-bros-narrative-a-cheap-false-campaign-tactic-masquerading-as-journalism-and-social-activism . I tried to embed this, but I couldn’t get it to work.

One reason I hate it is that it collapses Bernie Sanders supporters into the kind of MRA bullshit this site is against, and for another, it erases female Bernie supporters like me. That is, unless Madeline Albright is informing me that there’s a special place in hell for me if I don’t vote for Hillary, or Gloria Steinem suggesting that the only reason young women support Bernie Sanders is because that’s where the boys are. I mean, it’s not because they can read or have opinions or anything. It’s really annoying. And no, I don’t usually make a big deal about it, but I really don’t appreciate being magically turned into a Honey Badger by association.

@Terrebeau, the last I heard, Ta-Nehisi Coates actually endorsed Sanders.But I have actually seen a butt load of whitesplaining going on, and it’s embarrassing. I mean, my God, no one should be forced to justify their vote. That’s ridiculous.

@Scented Fucking Hard Chairs, you bet Bernie has been personally accused of both racism and sexism.

“I guess Black Lives Don’t Matter to Bernie Sanders.” –David Brock, on seeing the “America” ad. Because no one is a better judge of character than the man who accused Anita Hill of being “a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty.” I really wish the Clinton campaign would cut him loose.

@LordCrowStaff:
Andrea Hardie says that 75% of Germans are female, which might account for that. 😛

@reimalebario
The term you’re looking for is plutocracy

@EJ, yeah, well, she’s right about that. Tradition has it that the German people take on the sex of the current chancelor, and only a majority of the other sex are kept for reproductive purposes. It’s really a secret, though, so don’t go around posting it on any public blogs or something

@EJ: As soon as the pope becomes the pope, (s)he takes on the citizenship of the Vatican, therefore he is freed from this rule. It’s all well thought out, you see?

Also, I obviously meant minority in my first post.