Thanks, I definitely will if I am ever struggling with a hard problem.
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
8 years ago
@clever
I think you’re one of the cool kids!
I know I’m late to this, but I wanted to say I recognize pretty much all of what you say. Other people’s work is easy, my own work is too hard. Other people’s problems are fixable, my own problems are insurmountable.
I’m leaving a pile of hugs here.
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
8 years ago
@Orion
Thanks for that 2e link.
Alan Robertshaw
8 years ago
@ cleverforagirl
You’ve certainly got one of the coolest nicknames I’ve heard.
@ IP
You familiar with the phrases “plumbers’ taps drip” or “cobblers’ children are always poorly shod”? They sort of encapsulate that thing where it always seems simpler to sort out someone else’s problems than your own. It does seem pretty common. Even in business terms, I have a reputation for that “last minute solutions to insurmountable problems” thing; but it can take me six months to fill out some simple paperwork on my own behalf. Wonder why that is?
Orion
8 years ago
I’m despondently curious now. Was anyone reading this identified as a gifted student before age 18 and did they receive any special programs, enrichment, or accommodations?
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
8 years ago
@Alan
Those sound like very English phrases to me. :p But I understand what they mean. I’m sure it’s a common phenomenon, but I think I have it to an extreme degree.
@Orion
Not me. I was always top of my class until age 15-ish, and then it went downhill.
EJ (The Other One)
8 years ago
@Orion:
I was identified, and went on to compete in several junior maths programs including the Olympiad. I didn’t get any special support of any sort though, it was very much in-your-own-time stuff.
The main effect it had was that I learned no study habits whatsoever and so struggled in my first years at university.
kupo
8 years ago
@Orion
I went from failing math so badly in elementary school that my teacher recorded the wrong score so she wouldn’t have to fail me (I can’t do rote memorization well and performing arithmetic in my head takes a long time, so I was probably never going to pass anything to do with multiplication tables) to being recommended by a middle school teacher for advanced placement classes. My parents refused to let me take those classes because they were afraid I would be teased, so I had to remain at a lower level, got bored, had poor study habits, still got teased anyway, and struggled in high school to the point where I failed math. I ended up doing well in college but the pace was almost too fast for my slow self, and had I not worked too long and hard to possibly be good for my health I would have failed. But somehow I managed it.
Skiriki
8 years ago
Orion:
No, because schools in my neck of woods (and in 1980s) were furiously against anything that smacked of “elitism” (but a school focused on music or sports was perfectly fine, apparently), and being intellectual or smart was bad-bad-bad form of “elitism”. Add in some gendered expectations, and there you go.
Viscaria
8 years ago
@Orion: I was in a gifted student problem from grades 7-12. There were positives and negatives, for sure.
I’m also, just now at 26, in the process of getting a ADD diagnosis that may help to explain why I’ve never lived up to my supposed “potential.”
Hambeast, Social Justice Beastie
8 years ago
Orion
I’m despondently curious now. Was anyone reading this identified as a gifted student before age 18 and did they receive any special programs, enrichment, or accommodations?
Oh, yes indeed. I was tested and identified at age 7 in the Los Angeles Unified School District in the mid-sixties. We even had a program where all the ‘gifted’ students went to special classes and field trips once a week for a few semesters. It was a lot of fun, concentrated on science, mainly and I never even saw any resentment or teasing of us* in the program.
Once I left grade school, my parents (well, my mom, really) plunked me in parochial (Lutheran church) school due to concerns that I might get bused downtown. It was a good school; small (around 100 students in three grades) and I got a surprisingly good science education. But no gifted program since private schools were on their own, budget-wise back then.
By the time I was ready for high school, the busing threat was over and I went back to the good old LAUSD. I got into AP (advanced placement) science and then they re-tested me for the “gifted program.” I put scare quotes on that because the person testing me admitted that they were doing it because the district allotted individual schools more money for gifted students, but there was no gifted program, as such.
On another subject, I read guy’s link on discalculia and I believe I must have a mild form of it. I think it explains why I have had to take remedial algebra at every new college/uni I’ve ever gone to even though I get A grades every time I do. I just don’t seem to retain the information even though I apparently can learn it!
ETA: *I never noticed any, but that doesn’t mean it never happened, obviously.
Orion
8 years ago
I don’t know much about what American* high school is like. Would you say there’s a need for a “gifted program” in high school or having access to variety of AP subjects sufficient?
*or any other kind of school
Viscaria
8 years ago
The gifted & talented education I received was focused on enrichment, rather than acceleration. Just as I was graduating a decade ago, we were beginning to see a shift away from enrichment programs for students identified as gifted, and towards accelerated classes (AP, IB) for academically successful students. I really couldn’t tell you which was the better approach, as I’m not an educator, and I have no personal experience with AP or the International Baccalaureate program. I can only give my impressions of the program I was in.
I think being told by experts that I was “smart,” like it was an unchanging aspect of who I am, was not good for me. It led me to believe that success wasn’t something you could work towards; you either possessed the internal qualities necessary to succeed (i.e. giftedness) or you were forever doomed to failure. As a result, I was disinclined to try anything that I didn’t already know would come easy to me. When something didn’t come easy, it was a big hit to my self-esteem and my self-concept as a “smart person.”
It also set up some pretty high expectations in my mind, and in the minds of the adults around me. My parents are still disappointed that I don’t have a University degree. They still think I’m destined for a more prestigious career. I’ve tried to move past that myself, but I still sometimes hate myself for not living the adult life I thought I deserved because blah blah IQ scores.
On the other hand, I really enjoyed the enriched curricula, and I do think I would have gotten bored in more mainstream classes.
The other big advantage in being streamed with similar students was social. I finally had kids I could relate to. I wasn’t teased at all (although I did know some kids who were). We took pride in being a pretty weird bunch, and that allowed me to explore some of my weirder interests without being judged or ostracized.
Whoa holy wall of text, sorry. IT is working on my computer and I’m bored lol
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
8 years ago
I went to an International Baccalaureate program in high school, by the way. It sucked (for me).
—
I just had a very successful first attempt at making a Lebanese style lentil soup! All vegan and yummmmy.
guy
8 years ago
I was identified as gifted in Elementary school and placed in a program that ran through middle school.
I don’t see a need for a gifted program in high school beyond honors and AP, but that assumes that enough are available, and only the largest and richest school systems really provide all of them. Also, there’s a popular education columnist who ranks high schools based on the percentage of students taking AP classes and not the number passing, and this has incentivized school administrators to make questionable decisions.
Hambeast, Social Justice Beastie
8 years ago
Orion
I don’t know much about what American* high school is like. Would you say there’s a need for a “gifted program” in high school or having access to variety of AP subjects sufficient?
Well, now that I think about it, access to AP classes is (or was, in my 1970’s experience) probably quite sufficient. Then again, I qualified for AP classes I was already good in (English and Biology that entailed little or no math) and so was never identified as deficient in higher math. The only math I took in high school was Geometry and whatever passed as math in Chemistry and did rather poorly compared to my other subjects.
Viscaria
The gifted & talented education I received was focused on enrichment, rather than acceleration.
Mine, too. I think this is probably the better approach because it’s less likely to alienate students from each other. Better yet, give all students more enrichment! Ha, ha. As if!
I think being told by experts that I was “smart,” like it was an unchanging aspect of who I am, was not good for me.
I also agree with this, as another chronic ‘underachiever’! My first IQ test was given to me by a friend of our neighbor’s when I was five. I now think I was more precocious than genius. >.< I also think there's a big difference between the two!
EJ (The Other One)
8 years ago
My program was almost entirely about winning prestige for the school. They were extremely happy with encouraging me to be the stereotypical masculine nerdy dude and not do anything to develop myself more broadly if it meant that they got to boast about their Olympiad entrant.
I liked it at the time, but now I feel that it’s a bad idea.
Cleverforagirl
8 years ago
@alan – I was working in a college comp lab and a coworker said that to me. I found it a bit horrifying, hegenuinely meant it as a compliment.
MexicanHotChoclate and I kept discussing it until it went from mildly horrifying to funny to him calling me that when he teased me.
@everyone – thank you for the support, now that the anxiety has subsided I’m no longer freaking out and am much more comfortable with my plan b. (There are also plans c and d)
I’m despondently curious now. Was anyone reading this identified as a gifted student before age 18 and did they receive any special programs, enrichment, or accommodations?
Yes, yes, and no. I was tagged as TAG (‘Talented and Gifted’) in elementary, and sent off to some after-school programs and summer ‘enrichment’ programs and suchlike. I was bored out of my skull and hated all the other kids there, so eventually my parents quit making me go.
I don’t know much about what American* high school is like. Would you say there’s a need for a “gifted program” in high school or having access to variety of AP subjects sufficient?
IME, AP classes work fine, but are a pretty mixed bag (some of mine were total crap, others were great, depending on the teacher). I had the option of going into the IB program, but elected not to, for similar reasons to why I left the TAG programs.
@Viscaria
FI think being told by experts that I was “smart,” like it was an unchanging aspect of who I am, was not good for me. It led me to believe that success wasn’t something you could work towards; you either possessed the internal qualities necessary to succeed (i.e. giftedness) or you were forever doomed to failure. As a result, I was disinclined to try anything that I didn’t already know would come easy to me. When something didn’t come easy, it was a big hit to my self-esteem and my self-concept as a “smart person.”
It also set up some pretty high expectations in my mind, and in the minds of the adults around me. My parents are still disappointed that I don’t have a University degree. They still think I’m destined for a more prestigious career. I’ve tried to move past that myself, but I still sometimes hate myself for not living the adult life I thought I deserved because blah blah IQ scores.
Quoted for massive truth. All of it. I’m the only person in my immediate family in three generations not to have a postgraduate degree.
It was marginally better than being given a compliment on my appearance after doing something clever/difficult. I laugh about it now, but at the time I would flip flop between anger and confusion.
Tracy
8 years ago
I’m not sure when I was actually tested – first grade, I think, though it may have been kindergarten since I came in reading at a really high level (thanks to my mum)
I wasn’t skipped grades, but was put in various enrichment programs either with other kids, or with a special teacher. I was usually sent to higher grades to do things like spelling, and I was singled out a lot for other things (performing in particular)
I hated it. I hated all of it. I desperately wanted to fit in with my friends, and I usually didn’t. I desperately wanted to like more of the things they liked, and I didn’t. And I hated that sometimes, the things I could do (that they struggled with) made them feel bad.
I also hated that I also kinda loved being different and ‘special’, and the attention I’d get for it.
When I got to Grade 5, my school didn’t really know what to do with me so they did things like give me a University-level psychology textbook to read. I refused to participate in any enrichment after that.
I still have a ton of issues surrounding my school experience, the whole ‘gifted’ thing and how it made me feel and act – been exploring them lately. Not easy.
It also set up some pretty high expectations in my mind, and in the minds of the adults around me. My parents are still disappointed that I don’t have a University degree. They still think I’m destined for a more prestigious career. I’ve tried to move past that myself, but I still sometimes hate myself for not living the adult life I thought I deserved because blah blah IQ scores.
Me too, 100x me too. Really been struggling with this.
guy
8 years ago
My school system was large enough and wealthy enough to have gifted centers, where they sent all the gifted children from several schools and could get maybe 100 per grade in dedicated classes, so I didn’t have to worry about not fitting in with my classmates. It seemed to work pretty well for teaching us, and also had rather more cynical advantages for the administration.
See, schools had their performance measured based on standardized tests performed yearly, and everyone in the grade took the same set of tests (number and subject varied by grade), including the gifted students. And they were averaged over the entire school. And it was in no way a coincidence that the gifted center invariably wound up in schools with lots of free or reduced lunch or ESL students. Because it was easier to make test scores go up by shuffling us around rather than actually improving educational quality. There’s a lot to complain about with No Child Left Behind, but by measuring subsections it managed to undermine that strategy somewhat. Also their other strategy of gerrymandering schooldistricts.
None of the schools I went to had a separate “gifted” program, aside from splitting into “basic” and “advanced” math in grades 10 and 11. I’ve usually tested in the top 2-5% for verbal skills, but my math and problem-solving skills are middling.
I did get some informal accommodations in elementary school for being “difficult”! For example, my grade 5 teacher gave me a sketch pad because I kept drawing in the margins of assignment papers.
….This brings to mind an argument that happened at work today. I apologize in advance for complaining. I have a supervisor who can be very inflexible and difficult to get along with. It doesn’t help that I’m stubborn too. This morning I was showing him some ideas I had for ads, and I was making some sketches next to my words. Things seem to be going well, until perhaps I got too pushy and suggested a particular design incorporating the logo. Suddenly he changed manner and objected, saying that since he is a graphic designer with X years of experience, the images were his job. He went on to say that you should NEVER tell a professional designer what to design, etc., and I should take this as a “learning experience.”
No doubt it’s true that graphic designers aren’t usually given sketches by corporate clients, but why lash out at me for giving ideas? Why couldn’t he just say calmly that he would take care of the design, and that I could continue working on the written part? As it is, I tried to explain that my sketches were suggestions, and that I respected that design was his area of expertise, But I added (in retrospect, I shouldn’t have argued back) that when I worked for a college volunteer thing, I drew a logo which was then turned into a graphic design by someone who had that area of expertise, so in my experience it made sense for artists with different skills to work together. That got a comment along the lines of “Pfff, student stuff” and me being inexperienced in the professional world. (True enough.) When I tried to say, “Well, it’s my text that’s the point, the sketches don’t matter” he still kept lecturing me about focusing on my job and about me not being a good learner.
In short, his manner upsets me and I’m probably making it worse by being my stubborn self. I guess I just have to learn to bite my tongue and not try to change what he thinks, but it was frustrating again at the end of the day when I apologized for the “misunderstanding” and he replied with something like “No, no, I understood you; you’re just wrong.” Nothing about apologizing for getting upset or calling me a bad learner.
I wish I didn’t have emotions right at this moment, because I use them badly. I also suck at debating. I need a happy medium in between cowering in nervousness (“Don’t get mad at me! Please!”) and arguing back inadvisedly.
@EJ
Thanks, I definitely will if I am ever struggling with a hard problem.
@clever
I think you’re one of the cool kids!
I know I’m late to this, but I wanted to say I recognize pretty much all of what you say. Other people’s work is easy, my own work is too hard. Other people’s problems are fixable, my own problems are insurmountable.
I’m leaving a pile of hugs here.
@Orion
Thanks for that 2e link.
@ cleverforagirl
You’ve certainly got one of the coolest nicknames I’ve heard.
@ IP
You familiar with the phrases “plumbers’ taps drip” or “cobblers’ children are always poorly shod”? They sort of encapsulate that thing where it always seems simpler to sort out someone else’s problems than your own. It does seem pretty common. Even in business terms, I have a reputation for that “last minute solutions to insurmountable problems” thing; but it can take me six months to fill out some simple paperwork on my own behalf. Wonder why that is?
I’m despondently curious now. Was anyone reading this identified as a gifted student before age 18 and did they receive any special programs, enrichment, or accommodations?
@Alan
Those sound like very English phrases to me. :p But I understand what they mean. I’m sure it’s a common phenomenon, but I think I have it to an extreme degree.
@Orion
Not me. I was always top of my class until age 15-ish, and then it went downhill.
@Orion:
I was identified, and went on to compete in several junior maths programs including the Olympiad. I didn’t get any special support of any sort though, it was very much in-your-own-time stuff.
The main effect it had was that I learned no study habits whatsoever and so struggled in my first years at university.
@Orion
I went from failing math so badly in elementary school that my teacher recorded the wrong score so she wouldn’t have to fail me (I can’t do rote memorization well and performing arithmetic in my head takes a long time, so I was probably never going to pass anything to do with multiplication tables) to being recommended by a middle school teacher for advanced placement classes. My parents refused to let me take those classes because they were afraid I would be teased, so I had to remain at a lower level, got bored, had poor study habits, still got teased anyway, and struggled in high school to the point where I failed math. I ended up doing well in college but the pace was almost too fast for my slow self, and had I not worked too long and hard to possibly be good for my health I would have failed. But somehow I managed it.
Orion:
No, because schools in my neck of woods (and in 1980s) were furiously against anything that smacked of “elitism” (but a school focused on music or sports was perfectly fine, apparently), and being intellectual or smart was bad-bad-bad form of “elitism”. Add in some gendered expectations, and there you go.
@Orion: I was in a gifted student problem from grades 7-12. There were positives and negatives, for sure.
I’m also, just now at 26, in the process of getting a ADD diagnosis that may help to explain why I’ve never lived up to my supposed “potential.”
Orion
Oh, yes indeed. I was tested and identified at age 7 in the Los Angeles Unified School District in the mid-sixties. We even had a program where all the ‘gifted’ students went to special classes and field trips once a week for a few semesters. It was a lot of fun, concentrated on science, mainly and I never even saw any resentment or teasing of us* in the program.
Once I left grade school, my parents (well, my mom, really) plunked me in parochial (Lutheran church) school due to concerns that I might get bused downtown. It was a good school; small (around 100 students in three grades) and I got a surprisingly good science education. But no gifted program since private schools were on their own, budget-wise back then.
By the time I was ready for high school, the busing threat was over and I went back to the good old LAUSD. I got into AP (advanced placement) science and then they re-tested me for the “gifted program.” I put scare quotes on that because the person testing me admitted that they were doing it because the district allotted individual schools more money for gifted students, but there was no gifted program, as such.
On another subject, I read guy’s link on discalculia and I believe I must have a mild form of it. I think it explains why I have had to take remedial algebra at every new college/uni I’ve ever gone to even though I get A grades every time I do. I just don’t seem to retain the information even though I apparently can learn it!
ETA: *I never noticed any, but that doesn’t mean it never happened, obviously.
I don’t know much about what American* high school is like. Would you say there’s a need for a “gifted program” in high school or having access to variety of AP subjects sufficient?
*or any other kind of school
The gifted & talented education I received was focused on enrichment, rather than acceleration. Just as I was graduating a decade ago, we were beginning to see a shift away from enrichment programs for students identified as gifted, and towards accelerated classes (AP, IB) for academically successful students. I really couldn’t tell you which was the better approach, as I’m not an educator, and I have no personal experience with AP or the International Baccalaureate program. I can only give my impressions of the program I was in.
I think being told by experts that I was “smart,” like it was an unchanging aspect of who I am, was not good for me. It led me to believe that success wasn’t something you could work towards; you either possessed the internal qualities necessary to succeed (i.e. giftedness) or you were forever doomed to failure. As a result, I was disinclined to try anything that I didn’t already know would come easy to me. When something didn’t come easy, it was a big hit to my self-esteem and my self-concept as a “smart person.”
It also set up some pretty high expectations in my mind, and in the minds of the adults around me. My parents are still disappointed that I don’t have a University degree. They still think I’m destined for a more prestigious career. I’ve tried to move past that myself, but I still sometimes hate myself for not living the adult life I thought I deserved because blah blah IQ scores.
On the other hand, I really enjoyed the enriched curricula, and I do think I would have gotten bored in more mainstream classes.
The other big advantage in being streamed with similar students was social. I finally had kids I could relate to. I wasn’t teased at all (although I did know some kids who were). We took pride in being a pretty weird bunch, and that allowed me to explore some of my weirder interests without being judged or ostracized.
Whoa holy wall of text, sorry. IT is working on my computer and I’m bored lol
I went to an International Baccalaureate program in high school, by the way. It sucked (for me).
—
I just had a very successful first attempt at making a Lebanese style lentil soup! All vegan and yummmmy.
I was identified as gifted in Elementary school and placed in a program that ran through middle school.
I don’t see a need for a gifted program in high school beyond honors and AP, but that assumes that enough are available, and only the largest and richest school systems really provide all of them. Also, there’s a popular education columnist who ranks high schools based on the percentage of students taking AP classes and not the number passing, and this has incentivized school administrators to make questionable decisions.
Orion
Well, now that I think about it, access to AP classes is (or was, in my 1970’s experience) probably quite sufficient. Then again, I qualified for AP classes I was already good in (English and Biology that entailed little or no math) and so was never identified as deficient in higher math. The only math I took in high school was Geometry and whatever passed as math in Chemistry and did rather poorly compared to my other subjects.
Viscaria
Mine, too. I think this is probably the better approach because it’s less likely to alienate students from each other. Better yet, give all students more enrichment! Ha, ha. As if!
I also agree with this, as another chronic ‘underachiever’! My first IQ test was given to me by a friend of our neighbor’s when I was five. I now think I was more precocious than genius. >.< I also think there's a big difference between the two!
My program was almost entirely about winning prestige for the school. They were extremely happy with encouraging me to be the stereotypical masculine nerdy dude and not do anything to develop myself more broadly if it meant that they got to boast about their Olympiad entrant.
I liked it at the time, but now I feel that it’s a bad idea.
@alan – I was working in a college comp lab and a coworker said that to me. I found it a bit horrifying, hegenuinely meant it as a compliment.
MexicanHotChoclate and I kept discussing it until it went from mildly horrifying to funny to him calling me that when he teased me.
@everyone – thank you for the support, now that the anxiety has subsided I’m no longer freaking out and am much more comfortable with my plan b. (There are also plans c and d)
🙂
@Orion
Yes, yes, and no. I was tagged as TAG (‘Talented and Gifted’) in elementary, and sent off to some after-school programs and summer ‘enrichment’ programs and suchlike. I was bored out of my skull and hated all the other kids there, so eventually my parents quit making me go.
IME, AP classes work fine, but are a pretty mixed bag (some of mine were total crap, others were great, depending on the teacher). I had the option of going into the IB program, but elected not to, for similar reasons to why I left the TAG programs.
@Viscaria
Quoted for massive truth. All of it. I’m the only person in my immediate family in three generations not to have a postgraduate degree.
I was tested for the gifted program in first grade and it went as follows:
Parents: You got the 90th percentile on math and the 10th percentile on reading. Were the reading questions hard?
Me: They were so easy! So I stopped reading the questions and just picked answers randomly.
Parents: …Next time, just answer the questions the way they ask you to, OK?
Long story short, I got into the gifted program in second grade.
Jebus. Makes my blood boil just thinking about it.
It was marginally better than being given a compliment on my appearance after doing something clever/difficult. I laugh about it now, but at the time I would flip flop between anger and confusion.
I’m not sure when I was actually tested – first grade, I think, though it may have been kindergarten since I came in reading at a really high level (thanks to my mum)
I wasn’t skipped grades, but was put in various enrichment programs either with other kids, or with a special teacher. I was usually sent to higher grades to do things like spelling, and I was singled out a lot for other things (performing in particular)
I hated it. I hated all of it. I desperately wanted to fit in with my friends, and I usually didn’t. I desperately wanted to like more of the things they liked, and I didn’t. And I hated that sometimes, the things I could do (that they struggled with) made them feel bad.
I also hated that I also kinda loved being different and ‘special’, and the attention I’d get for it.
When I got to Grade 5, my school didn’t really know what to do with me so they did things like give me a University-level psychology textbook to read. I refused to participate in any enrichment after that.
I still have a ton of issues surrounding my school experience, the whole ‘gifted’ thing and how it made me feel and act – been exploring them lately. Not easy.
Me too, 100x me too. Really been struggling with this.
My school system was large enough and wealthy enough to have gifted centers, where they sent all the gifted children from several schools and could get maybe 100 per grade in dedicated classes, so I didn’t have to worry about not fitting in with my classmates. It seemed to work pretty well for teaching us, and also had rather more cynical advantages for the administration.
See, schools had their performance measured based on standardized tests performed yearly, and everyone in the grade took the same set of tests (number and subject varied by grade), including the gifted students. And they were averaged over the entire school. And it was in no way a coincidence that the gifted center invariably wound up in schools with lots of free or reduced lunch or ESL students. Because it was easier to make test scores go up by shuffling us around rather than actually improving educational quality. There’s a lot to complain about with No Child Left Behind, but by measuring subsections it managed to undermine that strategy somewhat. Also their other strategy of gerrymandering schooldistricts.
None of the schools I went to had a separate “gifted” program, aside from splitting into “basic” and “advanced” math in grades 10 and 11. I’ve usually tested in the top 2-5% for verbal skills, but my math and problem-solving skills are middling.
I did get some informal accommodations in elementary school for being “difficult”! For example, my grade 5 teacher gave me a sketch pad because I kept drawing in the margins of assignment papers.
….This brings to mind an argument that happened at work today. I apologize in advance for complaining. I have a supervisor who can be very inflexible and difficult to get along with. It doesn’t help that I’m stubborn too. This morning I was showing him some ideas I had for ads, and I was making some sketches next to my words. Things seem to be going well, until perhaps I got too pushy and suggested a particular design incorporating the logo. Suddenly he changed manner and objected, saying that since he is a graphic designer with X years of experience, the images were his job. He went on to say that you should NEVER tell a professional designer what to design, etc., and I should take this as a “learning experience.”
No doubt it’s true that graphic designers aren’t usually given sketches by corporate clients, but why lash out at me for giving ideas? Why couldn’t he just say calmly that he would take care of the design, and that I could continue working on the written part? As it is, I tried to explain that my sketches were suggestions, and that I respected that design was his area of expertise, But I added (in retrospect, I shouldn’t have argued back) that when I worked for a college volunteer thing, I drew a logo which was then turned into a graphic design by someone who had that area of expertise, so in my experience it made sense for artists with different skills to work together. That got a comment along the lines of “Pfff, student stuff” and me being inexperienced in the professional world. (True enough.) When I tried to say, “Well, it’s my text that’s the point, the sketches don’t matter” he still kept lecturing me about focusing on my job and about me not being a good learner.
In short, his manner upsets me and I’m probably making it worse by being my stubborn self. I guess I just have to learn to bite my tongue and not try to change what he thinks, but it was frustrating again at the end of the day when I apologized for the “misunderstanding” and he replied with something like “No, no, I understood you; you’re just wrong.” Nothing about apologizing for getting upset or calling me a bad learner.
I wish I didn’t have emotions right at this moment, because I use them badly. I also suck at debating. I need a happy medium in between cowering in nervousness (“Don’t get mad at me! Please!”) and arguing back inadvisedly.