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Open Thread for Non-Personal Stuff: Feb 2016 You Can Do It Edition

Up and over!
Up and over!

Hey there. Another open thread for non-personal stuff. No Trolls, MRAs, etc.

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Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

Response to

Trolling (as distinct from harassment, which confusingly is often called that) is a silencing tactic. It works by crowding out good-faith communication, and by making good-faith communicators waste enormous amounts of time and energy engaging with a person who isn’t actually listening. It works because the total energy that trolls have available to them for trolling is greater than the total energy that good-faith people have available for response. Trolling is Gresham’s Law of communication, if you will.

My view is somewhat similar, I think. I define trolling based on what people call trolls, and that has drifted about a bit over the years. To me trolling seems to be “the perception of a social disruption felt as deliberate and for the purposes of disruption”. That covers the trolls that you are talking about and people who are actually earnest but either their manner or topic is causing a disruption.

There are people called trolls who do ask questions in good faith, but they are a smaller percentage of the total. Think genuine communists that might want to have a discussion at an academic level with a typical USA conservative republican. Or conversely a person with pretty crappy views on sex and gender to honestly does not know that their views are crappy in a space like this. The disruption exists and the internet gives people reasons to doubt their sincerity, but I still think they should be part of the definition.

I tend to work with a troll, actually pretend they are serious in order to understand how they do what they do. If a troll is there by deliberate and deceptive means then it tends to come out in the interaction, It ends up showing what they are and that is good practice for learning how attack, defense, deception and obfuscation works online. But I have the stamina for that for reasons that in part have to do with privilege. I can do it because I can choose to put up with it most of the time and that should be taken into account in any potential website. Should there be rules for troll engagement/practice? Rules for when a troll is to be ejected? I think so.

Anything that can be done to make this equation more balanced is inherently a social justice focused activity because it prevents soft voices from being crowded out by bad-faith communication. If you teach people to recognise trolling and enable them to respond to it in a brief and dismissive manner rather than expending enormous energy on it, then you have empowered their voices.

The brief and dismissive rejection will be something to cover and [group/individual level troll tactics] will have to be a subject. [Elevating the voiceless and marginalized] will have to be its own subject too. So will [sustained troll engagement]. I will start listing these and will post the list (If anyone has a topic I would like to see them!)

The power of such a method is that, unlike many other things which are supposed to empower minority voices, it can’t easily be turned around and used to uphold the status quo because disempowered voices are saying things that are genuinely heartfelt and have not been said before, and thus will not fall within a dictionary of common troll tactics.

Yes. The rules and structure of the website will have to be designed with empowerment and elevation of marginalized people in mind. It should be kept in mind that trolls will consider this a “difficulty factor” though. They will simply switch tactics, and even try to develop new ones. for example in such an environment I can see trolls trying to pose as marginalized individuals more often

Therefore:
– It needs to be written in accessible language (that is, not by wordy white cis male people like ourselves.

)

I will need to get information from a lot of people for this one. I personally have advantages and disadvantages when it comes to this one so more than one person, and people from different groups should have input here. Frankly I’m hoping that each post introducing each topic becomes a synthesis of what I experience and what others experience where my views on the topic get modified by the perspectives and experiences of others.

– It needs to have wide categories rather than narrow ones, so people can easily remember them.

Is the partial list I provided a good place to start?

– It needs to be written in a funny manner, so people will read it, recommend it and remember it.

I’m working on it. Otherwise yes, I agree.

– It needs to ridicule trolls, so that people feel embarrassed to be seen to be making the arguments contained within it.

This will be covered in the humor section, and I will try to make it a continual focus. Many people don’t understand just how rooted in dominance/superiority humor is. Humor is a weapon that needs careful aiming.

– ETA: It needs to be apolitical insofar as is possible, so as not to alienate people who agree with 90% of it but not the remainder. For example, I am a pacifist, but I would try to avoid mentioning violence negatively within such a context so as to avoid making the resource inaccessible to underprivileged people who do not have the luxury of pacifism.

I hope that what I have here and on my draft list of topics so is consistent with what you have in mind. I’m going to try to pull basic principles applicable to general human behaviors out of this as much as possible and while I will need to use groups as examples, I want it to be applicable to any group as much as possible. Anything on the order of violence, dominance, superiority and similar I will make an effort to phrase in apolitical ways.

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

Looks like I missed the edit window. My last comment was a response to EJ’s comments about my proposal.

LindsayIrene
5 years ago

@Mish

What a beauty!

The way I embed a photo here is to post it to one of my Tumblr blogs, right click on it to copy the image address, and then paste to the commenting box.

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

I tried the t-shirt thong last night. The cat was very interested while I was setting it up, but then when it was done, peeked her head through the hole, looked at me, and walked away. Oh well. 🙂

LindsayIrene
5 years ago

Some dramatics from Tumblr:

comment image:large

Looks like the GomerGuppies are starting to feel neglected.

Skiriki
Skiriki
5 years ago

LindsayIrene: …that’s really impressive pretzelizing of logic, history, sociology, and reality as it is. I hope that whatever reality bubble that user occupies gets burst really fast and they join the rest of us and see that there was no reason to isolate themselves that way.

LindsayIrene
5 years ago

@Skiriki

Bastendorf is responding to everyone who is mocking his screed with, “I told you, it was just a dream. I was just sharing my dream.” Uh huh. Riiiiiiiiiight.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

Random annoyance of the day: After promising to have a female playable character in Far Cry 5 and the trailer with a badass huntress in it… All lies. No female playable character and the huntress got downgraded to a terrified damsel who doesn’t hunt and only really exists to show the male player main character her boobs. Fucking slap in the face.

Seriously, they could invent three entire languages but couldn’t give us the option to play as half the human race? Eat a gallon drum of dicks, Ubisoft.

Skiriki
Skiriki
5 years ago

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs:

Seriously, they could invent three entire languages but couldn’t give us the option to play as half the human race? Eat a gallon drum of dicks, Ubisoft.

No no no. Dicks are too much fun to eat.

Instead, eat a gallon drum of Haribo Sugar Free Gummy Bears, Ubisoft.

Mish
Mish
5 years ago

@LindsayIrene – thanks much for the photo-posting tip. There’s apparently a thing that WordPress bloggers can do to enable pics in comment threads, but possibly more trouble than it’s worth, David?
@Kupo – the complete lack of interest is normally something my cats do, too. I was pleased that my sacrifice of a t-shirt was appreciated. Re commercial cat toys, the one good toy I’ve found is the Cat It ‘rollerball’ thingie. Mine spend ages playing with them 🙂
Apologies for posting here a bit late – I’m technically back at work now …..

Elliot Rodger Was A Terrorist
Elliot Rodger Was A Terrorist
5 years ago

I started a petition to allow Minnesota to join Canada in the event of a Donald Trump victory.

I don’t WANT my state to leave the union, though. The purpose of this petition is to get people to think twice about voting for Trump or Cruz.

katz
5 years ago

Thought you guys might be interested. I was having a little discussion on the topic: Why aren’t artists’ models considered co-creators?

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

That’s a very interesting point. I have some friends who’ve modelled, and yeah, it bugged me at the time that the pictures of them were “by” someone else entirely.

It’s almost pure objectification.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ Katz

That’s a really interesting thought. I’ve got a mate who’s both a model and a photographer (nearly 25 now so obviously needs a fallback career!). I’ll see what she has to say.

On a related legal note, in law (unless the shoot is commissioned) the creative rights belong solely to the photographer. There’s been an interesting case where an ape accidentally took a ‘selfie’. Still arguing about who owns the copyright there.

Moocow
5 years ago

@katz

I would 100% advocate for models as co-artists. I did modeling once with a friend. What I learned is that, not only is it very physically demanding, it’s a skill that takes a lot of practice.

@LindsayIrene

They literally flipped the script. There’s hasn’t been a single game company shut down by ‘evil SJWs’, and yet GG has chased countless women out of gaming.

Gamergate really is the worst thing to happen to gaming since the video game crash in 1983

@SFHC

Goddamnit! I remember seeing that trailer and being excited for exactly that…

Ugh. At the very least it makes me happy to have supported Ark which did a much better job in that regard.

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

@Mish

Is that the ball track? My cats usually don’t care about those but I’ve only tried the boring circular ones. One of my cats loves their massage center, and I actually have a couple of the light-up balls for the track because they sometimes like light-up balls.

Mish
Mish
5 years ago

@kupo, yes, that’s the one. 2 of my 3 get a lot of fun out of it; I got two sets and made them into a big figure-8. The massage centre one is next on my list.

Aside from the rollerball, though, I love that they’re hugely entertained by really easy cheap stuff: scrunched-up paper, cardboard tubes, pegs … and of course anything that I need to use at any given time :). My boy-cat is a Weegie – Norwegian Forest Cat – so he does lots of climbing and running. Given that they’re indoor kittehs, I try to put extra effort into their entertainment – please feel free to share any tips!

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ Katz

My model/photographer friend had this to say about the credit thing:

Usually the model doesn’t come up with the concept or have any creative input besides the performance on the day. Often, the model is a replaceable participant… You just need a body, it doesn’t have to be a specific body. The artist isn’t so easily replaced, especially when they’ve spent years honing their craft, when a model’s career is too short for this even to be possible, unless you’re talking about life models, but that doesn’t take much skill.

It’s not always the case, but more often than not, I’d say.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

when a model’s career is too short for this even to be possible

And here we have, in my opinion, the crux of the matter. Objectification implies disposability, after all.

Paradoxical Intention - Resident Cheeseburger Slut

I have another batch of Katz’ delicious chicken recipe marinating away in the fridge, alongside a batch of potatoes and onions.

I’m going to pop them in the oven in about ten minutes, and then in an hour, I’ll have a yummy dinner.

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

@Mish
I might give that a try. I know my girl cat would play with it if I show her, but she’ll probably ignore it when I’m not around. A new toy I got that my boy cat has been enjoying is the Pet Smart twist and treat ball. He immediately figured out how to get treats out of it, and it has the bonus of preventing him from eating so fast he gets sick. The girl cat doesn’t like treats, otherwise she would probably like it.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

The girl cat doesn’t like treats

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-21-2015/ax6j8Y.gif

Are you sure she’s really a cat and not an alien body snatcher pretending to be a cat?

I was going to post about how there’s been yet another mass shooting. But maybe I’ll just stick to cats.

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

@WWTH
She has stomach problems and gulps them down really fast then gets sick, so now she has an aversion to them. She does like Bonito flakes, though. 🙂

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Poor kitty. Missing out on treats. Dracarys ate her dinner really fast tonight (and every night). It didn’t make her puke but it did make her get the hiccups. Kitty hiccups are kind of adorable.

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

She’s enjoying second dinner right now, which she gets whenever she’s feeling well enough to want it.

Kitty hiccups are adorable. So are kitty sneezes, especially when they sneeze like 6 times in a row. So cute. 🙂

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Unless they sneeze directly onto your face. Something both cats have done to me. That’s gross. I don’t mind when Dracy drools on me though. As long as she does it on my pajama top and not my skin. It’s kind of sweet when she drools because it means she’s very happy and relaxed. She’s neurotic and it took months after adopting her before she trusted me enough to snuggle on me and get drooly.

Mish
Mish
5 years ago

WWTH & kupo, the kitteh comments are hugely enjoyable & I also love it when they sneeze & drool (within reason…..)

Your comments are a lovely counterpoint to a debate which is currently raging on a local (Aust.) site which is doing my head in, so thank you.
Schools here were set to implement an anti-bullying program called Safe Schools, directed at helping LGBTI kids (plus their families). It’s evidence-based and approved up, down, and backwards by all the organisations that count. A couple of days ago some of our far-far-far-right government MPs launched a scare campaign around it, and now a vocal minority are claiming that it’s going to indoctrinate kids into being gay and trans – and possibly promiscuous, ’cause why not? The govt has launched an ‘inquiry’.
Suicide rates for LGBTI youth are very high here. It’s bloody heartbreaking that a program aimed to help kids feel safe and accepted – and that’s all it is – might be dumped because of this ridiculous outrage.
Rant over 🙂

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

@Mish that’s terrible. 🙁

The girl cat (pepper) drools a lot when happy. She has this habit of shaking her head and flinging her drool everywhere, which we call pepper showers.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Well, it doesn’t take much prompting to get people to talk about their cats or any other pet around here!

A lot of school districts and/or states in the US have had the same kind of fuckery unfortunately. Most notably the terrible “Don’t Say Gay” bill in Tennessee. Fortunately it didn’t pass but it would have banned mention of homosexuality in K-8 schools. Not just in sex ed. It would have meant you couldn’t talk about how some kids have two mommies or two daddies rather than a mommy and daddy. It would have stopped any anti-bullying programs helping LGBT students. It also would have given school officials authorities to out LGBT students to their parents. Horrible stuff.

There’ve also been districts that have banned all school clubs rather than allow LGBT clubs, gay-straight student alliances etc. because schools aren’t allowed to discriminate under federal law.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Oh and then there’s the new bill in SD that would prohibit trans students from using the correct bathroom for their gender. Ugh.

Is Pepper calico or tortie? Dracy is a calico. Dracarys means “dragonfire.” I thought that was a good name for a calico because orange is the color of fire, black the color of smoke, and white the color of ash. I love calico kitties. In addition to being gorgeous, they’re misandry. Besides the rare XXY chromosomed male calicos, only females get to have fur from both the red and black color groups. Poor oppressed kitty menz just get one or the other.

I also read somewhere that after black cats, calicos have the most trouble getting adopted because people think they’re meaner than other kinds of cats. If that’s true, adopting a calico is a good thing to do.

Mish
Mish
5 years ago

Oh, I love calicos!! We lost our gorgeous calico girl Wilkie last year (actually we lost our 3 babies in a single 6 week period; we had them for 17 years so it was shattering). She was the sweetest and smartest girl – nothing mean about her. Dracarys is one of the coolest cat names I’ve ever heard.
We now have another 3 moggies (always has to be 3 for some reason) and one is a tortie. Yay.
Jebus, those US examples re LGBTI really put things in perspective. Gah! Not allowing any clubs at all in order to get around the anti-discrimination laws – way to put kids first, people!!
@kupo ‘pepper showers’ is utterly adorable 🙂

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I don’t know if these Twitter pictures will embed or not but I’ll try

comment image:large

Dracy

And Darrow

comment image

Mish
Mish
5 years ago

@WWTH those are 2 seriously gorgeous cats. And Darrow has WHITE PAWS I LOVE WHITE PAWS.

I am trying LindsayIrene’s tip for posting photos. This is my tortie, Piper.

http://mish-chan.tumblr.com/image/140013856559

ETA looks like you still have to click on it. Oh well …

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Piper is a cutie. I like the little orange eye patch.

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

I’ve never met a calico I didn’t like. I used to have a tortie when I was little. She was a bit anxious but sweet. She had kittens and one was a grey tabby with orange mixed in and the other was a grey tuxedo. Cat genetics are interesting. 🙂

Pepper is all black. She has kitty social issues–she meows at other cats like she does at people, gets in other kitties’ personal space, and doesn’t seem to recognize their body language. But she’s improving–she used to not tolerate being on the same floor of the condo with other cats and now she’ll eat next to our other cat.

http://i.imgur.com/4tT2dmC.jpg

Mr. Bigglesworth is a grey tuxedo cat. My ex found him as a kitten going through the garbage a neighbor had the habit of leaving in front of his apartment door instead of walking it 100 feet to the trash can. A different neighbor had kittens we could hear on their balcony, so we tried to return him, but they denied up and down that they had any kittens (that complex only allowed 2 cats and was actively trying to get rid of that family for racist reasons, so I think they thought we would report them). We ended up keeping him. That was 18 years ago (and now I feel old).

http://i.imgur.com/NCD6BDW.jpg

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
5 years ago

KITTIES!

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
5 years ago

The GOP debate last night was probably the worst one so far. I’ve said this after almost every debate, but what. a. trainwreck.

Mish
Mish
5 years ago

@kupo, your babies are gorgeous! (not babies in terms of age, I know, but I still referred to my previous bunch as babies, and they were all 17). My current 3 are *actual* babies, but no doubt will remain so until they are elderly. I love hearing the details of how people got their pets – what serendipity that your ex found Mr Bigglesworth like that. He’s a fortunate kitteh.

Can I ask what technique you use to post your photos, if you don’t mind? I’m still not having any luck.

(thread has gone on for almost a week, awesome)

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Those are the most adorable kitties ever.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

This story combines my obsession with anti poaching/hunting with some proper badass women!

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/feb/26/the-all-female-patrol-stopping-south-africas-rhino-poachers

Imaginary Petal
Imaginary Petal
5 years ago

@Alan

Would you mind talking a little bit about your anti-hunting “obsession”?

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

While the conservation of the white rhino is an important task, and the empowerment of rural women is more important yet, I am deeply uncomfortable with the social and racial politics of the Baluli Satellite Park and feel that an article taking an adultatory tone towards it is problematic, especially given that it could be seen to be sweeping real human concerns under the rug in order to give a heartwarming story to first-world white people.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ IP

Would you mind talking

Well, you know how I’m usually so reserved, but go on then 😉

It’s a weird thing. You know I’m usually detached about social issues and I’m all “well, looked at objectively…” etc. but there are a couple of areas where I just can’t be dispassionate. That’s cruelty to animals and children. The short reason for that is that there’s something particularly insidious against cruelty to people who lack the capacity to understand why things are happening. Nasty things happen to grown up humans, but at least they can put things in context and know who to blame. But there’s something especially heart breaking when you see a child or an animal still seeking affection from an abuser and wondering what they did wrong. You just want to hug them and say “This isn’t your fault!”

Basically, any morality I have on social issues comes from my general distaste for bullies, and this seems to be the ultimate example of that sort of behaviour. It’s the only time I feel any animosity towards people. I have no problem with the use of violence as a a solution to problems, but it’s normally in a detached way. I don’t believe in revenge, I’m not even that bothered about punishment (it’s too late by then), it’s purely a practical thing (stopping a problem). That does change with canned hunters though, whom I absolute hate with a passion. I’d be in breach of the comments policy if I discussed that any further. Apart from the cruelty I think I’m particularly offended by their appropriation of certain tropes(?). I’m quite a fan of danger and overcoming difficult challenges and I also find such behaviour admirable, but I get really annoyed when canned hunters pose over dead animals like they’ve done some amazing feat. There’s not even the slightest skill or risk involved in canned hunting. It’s like Mike Tyson standing over a five year old he’s beaten up, and the five year old had his hands tied behind his back.

Funnily enough, my SO feels exactly the same way. Normally she’s a total hippy. She does pro bono anti death penalty work and all that sort of thing, but when it comes to hunters (and child abusers) she’s totally vicious and would happily see them all killed. Weird eh?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ EJ

I take your point but it’s not a zero sum game. Concern for animals doesn’t take away for concern for humans (and generally people who don’t care for humans don’t care for animals either)

I’m also not sure it’s a first world thing. We have a lot of connections with anti poaching/hunting activists and they’re by no means all white. You’ll know better than anybody that, whilst you may get the people harkening back to Masai ‘traditions’ etc, they’re no more representative of black Africans than pro fox hunting traditionalists are of the white English.

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

@Mish
I’m usually on here from my phone, so I downloaded the imgur app, posted them on there, copied the url to the clipboard, opened it in another tab, opened the image (on a pc it’s right-click, on Android it’s press your finger for a couple of seconds until the options come up), then copied the image url.

I just woke up from a dream where I found a tortie cat hiding in the basement of my grandfather’s house. She had 3 kittens that she brought me, and I was trying to get her to hold still long enough to get the phone number on her tag.

Oh, and Pepper’s origin story is pretty great. I had a black cat who disappeared, so I was going to the nearby shelters to look for him. Obviously I paid more attention to the black cats, but when I read their info if they were girls I would usually ignore them. Most cats are freaked out and hiding in the back of their cage in those places, but pepper would come up and meow and beg for attention. So I made a habit of saying hi to her whenever I came in. Months went by and I never found my lost cat. One day I looked for Pepper and she wasn’t there, so I said, “Oh, Pepper’s gone.” She heard her name and started meowing loudly and making a fuss. I came over to say hi, and when I told her goodbye and turned to leave, she stuck her paw in her water dish and flung some water at me to get my attention. That settled it. The poor dear was only a year old and had been there six months. Others had been interested in adopting her but didn’t want her anymore after spending time with her. The problem is they put you in a room with the cat for a few minutes so you can socialize with them, and Pepper immediately ignored me to explore the room when this happened. She didn’t want to be petted or held, so I just let her explore. For most people this is a big turn off, but I understand cats well enough to know they’re going to feel uncomfortable being petted in an unfamiliar place, so I didn’t take it personally. I knew she had already picked me. 🙂

I’ll have to read the hunting article when I have some down time today.

guy
guy
5 years ago

Re: modeling

I think this is actually a two-part issue, and by sheer coincidence I actually posted a useful analogy to start off this thread.

if you were a famous singer, how much would you charge for making a Vocaloid voicebank using your voice? Before you answer, know that the Vocaloid software is a “virtual instrument” under Japanese law and if anyone uses the software to make a song they’ve got the copyright (at least as much of the copyright as if they’d sung it themselves).

I think it’s entirely appropriate for the voice provider to not get the copyright for a Vocaloid song, because they did not have creative input, though their (indirect) participation is important to the song and it is appropriate that they got to charge for that at whatever rate they felt adequate (indirectly, the company makes a deal with them and then sells the software). But on the other hand, if they sing a song, even one written by someone else, they will in general make creative decisions about exact pitch and timing that influence the meaning of the song, and furthermore may have participated in the writing process with suggestions, and it is appropriate for them to be considered a creator of their version.

So for modelling, I don’t think merely sitting for a picture counts as being a co-creator. I have sat for school pictures where the photographer gave me very precise instructions, including how much to smile and the precise angle to hold my head at. A blanket “models should be listed as co-creators” rule would list me as a co-creator, and I do not think that would be right. But a given model might be acting like a singer rather than like a voice provider, and in that case they do deserve co-creator credit. In either case, they can negotiate payment and terms.

Also, I’m pretty sure that listing them as co-creators will not have any impact on disposability in either case. The pop music industry places a lot of emphasis on its singers and barely mentions composers, yet it’s the singers who get replaced while pretty much all pop songs for at least a decade have been written by the same handful of people. Because models and singers are expected to fit in a narrow age range, and simply listing them as creators does not change that. It will take more to do that.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

I agree entirely that compassion for animals, especially endangered animals, is something that humanity needs to display more of. However, as with so many issues, this one has its roots in society and economics, and so needs to be handled as such; and much of the commentary upon it, like that article, come with a very ugly and racist set of assumptions.

I wrote quite a long thing on this, which (so as not to Had To Be Said this thread) I’ll put on my blog.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ EJ

Ooh, I’ll be interested in that. There’s a lot of ‘ignorant’ racism in animal rights. Like people are surprised to find there’s donkey sanctuaries in the Middle East as if the people there wouldn’t care about animals as much as anyone else.

Mish
Mish
5 years ago

@kupo, thank you lots for the pic-posting details! But thanks even more for the story of how you found Pepper (or how she found you). That’s just brilliant (except the bit about losing your black boy kitteh) – and you’re so right about not forcing cats to interact or esp snuggle. My newest one, Mei-Mei, was turned down by a lot of prospective adopters because she showed little interest in them. We just sat around chatting and watching her, and then my son said “yep”. She’s incredibly affectionate but hates being picked up and held so we don’t push it.
How I got my ‘weegie’, Shiro, is funny: I saw his posting on one of the shelter websites and fell in love with him straight away but he had a line of people already interested. One person was approved and the adoption was all set, but then they took him in for his de-sexing and discovered that the kitten they thought was female was actually a male. The approved peep badly wanted a girl kitten but I didn’t care either way so I got him 🙂