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antifeminism gross incompetence memes misogyny MRA open thread

Correct Spelling is Misandry! A Memeday Open Thread

Stay in school, MRA kids!
Stay in school, MRA kids!

Dudes, seriously? If you’re this bad at spelling, run your damn memes by someone you know who can spell before posting them for all of the Internet to see.

The word is spelled "therefore."
Wat

Dudes: The word is spelled “therefore.” With an “e” at the end. Also, center your text properly! In addition, I would suggest that you 1) lay off the rape jokes and 2) try to make even a little bit of sense.

mraschoolthen

Dudes: it’s “than,” not “then.” They are different words, with different meanings, and you used the wrong one.

Also, that first sentence is a mess. Change “or have internalized misogyny” to “nor do they have internalized misogyny.”

Once again, a feminist has to do the work that MRAs should be doing themselves. At least this time they spelled “misogyny” correctly.

As for you, dear readers: Feel free to discuss the arguments (or the spelling) of any of these memes. But you can use this as an open thread, too.

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Chiomara
Chiomara
4 years ago

@Orion
Wow. Thanks! You are awesome.

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

@Imaginary Petal
Like several other commenters, I took Otter’s questionnaire.

guest
guest
4 years ago

I just now did the Otter’s task thingie–very well set up. I wish her luck with her research.

Scaly Llama
Scaly Llama
4 years ago

@Imaginary Petal – Have completed your otter’s questionnaire and posted it to my FB friends – hopefully a few more responses will come from there.

Wishing zie all the best with zie’s research!

dust bunny
dust bunny
4 years ago

@ LG

Do you have a specific publication of hers in mind? I’ve read Why Him, Why Her some years ago, but I don’t remember much of it.

@ Dalillama

I’m not denying that spelling has some practical value. If it had none it would not be a thing. In the grand scheme of things though, it’s pretty insignificant, and if you should choose to emphasize it on aesthetic grounds, be aware that’s a personal choice and there’s room for considerable disagreement.

@ Lady Mondegreen

Thank you. I’m actually okay with trans folks shouting at me. (It’s only happened once.) I understand they feel sieged, and I can restrain myself from voicing opinions that touch on their identity around them. If I don’t manage that, it’s on me. I would prefer to have beliefs that never hurt anyone, but that’s not possible.

I’m more bothered by how hostility against the whole concept of femininity is making me de facto sexist (I’m even more hostile toward traditional masculinity because it’s disgusting and evil, but I have no power to hurt the people who represent it), and by how having obligatory gender imposed on me feels like violence. I know it’s an injustice that’s being committed against me, and it isn’t on me to fix that. But I still feel like my life would be better if I could feel less violated by changing the way I perceive things.

As for the spelling thing–I’ll just say this. Shaming somebody for poor spelling or idiosyncratic grammar that because they grew up poor, were under-educated, have cognitive disabilites, etc. is certainly wrong. It does not follow that it is always wrong to shame people for poor spelling and grammar. I simply do not believe that the people making these memes don’t know how to spell words that are central to their worldview, or, unable to spell those words, they aren’t capable of correcting errors after someone points it out.

I’m not going to say it’s wrong to mock bad spelling. If I have, I spoke carelessly and take it back. I don’t necessarily believe that. I’m making a weaker claim, which is that it makes me uneasy for reasons I think are pretty solid. I’m open to being convinced there are other factors I’m not considering, that change the big picture.

I don’t think it’s possible to mock bad spelling while only targeting some bad spellers but not the rest. When you mock something, you are saying that thing is worthy of scorn and ridicule, ie. wrong, embarrassing or shameful. Saying that is may be felt by anyone who has that thing and doesn’t have the skin of a hippopotamus. You can’t direct it at some cases but not others.

Let me illustrate what I hear when behaviors by healthy people that kinda look like the symptoms of my disability are being mocked. Details have been changed because I’m not in fact dyslexic.
Person who thinks bad spelling is mockworthy: “Ha ha ha! Look at that jackass, he spelled wrong, how funny is that!”
Me, in a parallel universe where I’m dyslexic: “Oh yeah, huh, I guess that’s funny, heh heh”
PWTBSIM: “Oh but I don’t mean, like, you! You’re different! It’s not funny at all when you spell badly, you’re disabled and that’s why you spell badly, and that’s not funny! It’s sad! I feel bad for you because you’re disabled, and I’d never laugh when YOU spell badly. It’s not your fault. It’s only those other bad spellers who are funny, because they could spell right if they wanted, but you couldn’t, so it’s not. We all understand you couldn’t spell correctly if you tried. Bad spelling is only funny when it’s not sad!”

Can you see what I mean?

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

Hi everyone.

I have a message from Otter, and I’m cross-posting it to the new open thread for personal stuff just to be sure. I’m also reposting the link to the questionnaire since it was requested by one commenter. More info about the research project can be found on page 1 in this comment section. Here’s the link again:

http://goo.gl/forms/bdjU6q1XWc

Message from Otter:

Hi, and thank you all so much for helping me out! I really appreciate it :). If anyone else would like to participate, that would be great!

Everyone who responded to the questionnaire should have received an email from me at this point. Unfortunately, Google forms recorded timestamps for two respondents but no other information, including an email address. I’m not sure how or why that happened. If any of you responded to the questionnaire but did not receive an email from me, that might explain why. If you think that might have happened to you, feel free to take the questionnaire again if you like, but be sure to input the same email address you submitted the first time, so I can make sure I’m not counting someone twice.

Again, I really appreciate everyone’s help! I offer thee a “thank you” with your name on it, here you go! *hands you a thank you, hopes you like it*

LG
LG
4 years ago

dust bunny –

“Do you have a specific publication of hers in mind? I’ve read Why Him, Why Her some years ago, but I don’t remember much of it.”

Why Him, Why Her would be a good one to revisit because it’s where she talks in the most depth about personality brain systems. But I also recommend this lecture entitled Gender Differences In The Brain:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSGd6Ojuw0Q

Which is, of course, misleadingly titled IMO. Like I said, she’s determined to sing to a cishetero binary tune. But she also does interesting things like point to Hillary Clinton as an example of someone she thinks is primarily a testosterone-systems thinker, and Bill Clinton as an estrogen-systems thinker. And in her book, she also argues that the genius of Charles Darwin was estrogenic.

In discovering her stuff, I found the notion that females are commonly primarily testosteronic and males commonly primarily estrogenic to be pretty revolutionary. One study she did put the numbers at something like 1 in 5 being “wrong.” Mind you, that’s a seperate thing from experiencing sex dysphoria (or, as in my case, a vague sense, not of my body being wrong, but like, shouldn’t there be another setting, here?).

Another things I found very usefully paradigm-changing in her research is that she points out that the common societal notion of gender being zero-sum (you’re EITHER feminine OR masculine in your personality) is bullocks: you can be high in both testosterone and estrogen brain systems! You can also be low in both, and your personality can be more heavily reliant on the non-gendered dopamine and serotonin systems.

But by far the most useful thing she presents are her models of what kind of thinking testosterone and estrogen brain systems are good it. In a nutshell, testosterone brains systems = decisiveness, competitiveness and win-lose thinking, sequential thinking, ambition and hierarchical social organizing, while estrogen brain systems = contingent, open-ended thinking, cooperative and win-win thinking, “web” or systems thinking, empathy, imagination and non-hierarchical social organizing.

I think our social notions of femininity and masculinity contain some of these concepts, but gender roles are largely concerned with maintaining the patriarchy and are men/masculinity-centric. For example, I remember being told as a youngster that women are “naturally submissive” and men are “naturally dominant.” Even if you think that men=testosterone and women=estrogen (which is WAY wrong), that’s bullocks because estrogenic isn’t “submissive,” it’s dismissive of the entire question of dominance/submission.

So basically, this is how I make my peace between my feminism and trans politics.

Lady Mondegreen
Lady Mondegreen
4 years ago

@dust bunny

Can you see what I mean?

Yes, but I also think it’s possible for the hypothetical dyslexic person to have a sense of humor about their lousy spelling. Even if they don’t, I think that context does matter: mocking people with a superiority complex fuelled by sexism for misspelling their silly pronouncements really isn’t the same thing as mocking someone for having a neurological disorder.

As I said, though, I can see your side of it. You see potential splash damage. Understandable.

Orion
Orion
4 years ago

I have trouble understanding the basic premises of her model. In the YouTube video she shows a pie chart at one point that breaks people’s personality profiles into 4 sections, like “40% testosterone, 33% estrogen, 20% dopamine, 7% serotonin” or whatever. But when she explains the systems she constantly positions them as opposed pairs — dopamine-system drives are the opposite of serotonin-system drives, and testosterone traits correspond to incompatible estrogen traits.

What it would mean to have strong testosterone *and* estrogen systems isn’t addressed in the video (I’m not sure the possibility is mention), nor it would mean for both dopamine and serotonin to be dominant.

occasional reader
occasional reader
4 years ago

Hello.

Ok, i fill the form with the island test. But it misses a lot of information. With just knowing this is a tropical island, it is hard to establish a ranking between salvaged goods.

Have a nice day.

LG
LG
4 years ago

Orion –

Dunno what to tell you, really, except that never seemed to confusing to me. Brains and personalities are complicated and contain multitudes, so why would “contradictory” mean “mutually exclusive” or “must be in a zero-sum relationship to each other”?

I can tell you that I scored as highly estrogenic on her test and only slightly more highly testosteronic, which seems quite right. So I *can* talk to you about my experience of being me. For example, I’m both highly competitive AND highly cooperative, and one way this manifests is that I enjoy (rhetorically) beating antagonistic trolls into submission and forcing them into consensus-building and cooperative talk whether they like it or not.

See, it’s not that I don’t get that cooperation and competition are mutually exclusive OPTIONS in this or that moment, it’s just that my brain is very prone to respond to the world around me by presenting me with both kinds of option equally readily. Make sense?

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

Humans seem to love breaking people into “personal types”, whether those be astrological, Paracelsian, Scientological, or Hogwarts houses, or something more empirical like the Myers-Briggs or Big Five tests. In all these cases they seem to regard the human mind as an entity independent from the human brain, which must be understood in its own terms.

I’m not a neurologist, but I’d be interested to read the scholarship behind the above video. If she’s simply defined new personality types in the same way as Myers and Briggs but named them after brain chemicals, then they may as well be called Black Bile, Yellow Bile, Blood and Phlegm because the names are arbitrary. On the other hand if this is actually based on real neurological research, then it may represent something which is objectively true about humanity. If that’s the case then coooooooooool.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ EJ

Humans seem to love breaking people into “personal types”

As an extrovert Capricorn Yorkshireman, I’m a bit sceptical about that.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ IP

I didn’t get an email from your Otter. Does that mean the questionnaire results didn’t go through? If so, I’m happy to re-submit. But if it’s just the email info lost and that’s not needed then I’m not bothered about the book token draw. I’ve now got my heart set on a Monty Hall Goat.

LG
LG
4 years ago

EJ – her video lectures don’t talk too much about what the actual research behind the models is, but her books do. They seem to (largely) check out to me, but I’m no expert, either. I do consider myself a skeptical layperson with reasonable science literacy, though. She claims that the quiz she uses to determine brain systems was able to successfully predict the results of brain scans in her test groups. Also, my husband also took her quiz, and as far as her theory about romantic compatibility goes, we did check out pretty perfectly. So there’s that.

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

@Alan

Otter says your results did go through and she sent you an email back. Could it be in your spam folder? She’s sending another email now. 🙂

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

@LG:
Thanks very much. That’s a little disappointing, but I think I might just be irrationally enthusiastic when it comes to such things.

LG
LG
4 years ago

Wait, what’s disappointing about what I said?

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

I was hoping that she had devised it by observing the actual neurological effects of the hormones in question and working out the effects that this would have on human behaviour, not that she had devised a quiz which simply predicted them to a fair degree of accuracy.

Ah well.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ IP

Yup, got that now and responded.

[Unlike when I got interviewed before the election I’ll actually provide real responses 🙂 ]

LG
LG
4 years ago

EJ – Oh, don’t worry, there’s much more than that. That was just a notable example.

Her website might be a decent place to start. Haven’t checked it out, yet. Will do right now.

LG
LG
4 years ago

“I was hoping that she had devised it by observing the actual neurological effects of the hormones in question and working out the effects that this would have on human behaviour, not that she had devised a quiz which simply predicted them to a fair degree of accuracy.”

Ah, I see what you’re saying.

As I understand it, the effects of these neurotransmitters* on behavior is something there’s already good established data on, (there’s probably also bad established data on it as well because capitalism, but you know how it is), and Fisher applies it to the matter of making this predictive test.

…which is probably why she starts this paper with “Four suites of behavioral traits have been extracted from the literature.” That probably means the 84 references she lists:

http://www.helenfisher.com/downloads/articles/Brown_et_al_2013.pdf

So…sift through and make what we will of them? It’s intimidating stuff for me, as my formal science education level is low.

*testosterone and estrogen are both hormones and neurotransmitters and are neurotransmitters in this context