So an angry dude wandered into the S**t Reddit Says subreddit recently — one of the few feminist-friendly, largely manbaby-free hideouts on Reddit — and left a pretty amazing rant, attacking the SRSers as, well, see for yourself.
I’m not even going to bother fisking this one. I think it’s probably best experienced in its original wall-of-text form.
In case that image is hard to read, here’s the text:
You’re the most f**ked up group of people currently alive (self.S**tRedditSays)
submitted 1 day ago by LewisExMachina
I’m sure you’re gonna devour this account too, but whatever. I’ve resigned myself to the fact that every time I call you out my account gets spammed and your cronies try to doxx me, but I can’t let you keep doing what you’re doing. The harassment you put people through on a daily basis is way worse than anything /fatpeoplehate was ever accused of. Who knows how many men you’ve driven to suicide just because they have something between their legs. But you don’t fucking care, because they made a rape joke and that makes them worse than Nazis. I guess rape is worse than murder now. And since men can’t be raped any man who says he was raped has to deal with it while a female who says she was raped is instantly believed and rewarded for her bravery. And you think women have it worse? Fuck off, women are treated like little princesses while men are treated like shit. Maybe you have a point with the catcalling thing, but everything else you say is bullshit and based on lies meant to devalue men and increase the value of women. Soon you’ll force the government to add the ability to make more money (27% more) by just checking off a “I’m a woman” box on a job sheet. Us men will just say that we’re transwomen (since that’s also something you support) and get that money too, so you’ll be back to square 1 where men and women make the same salaries. If you want to make the same money then don’t take maternity leave, dipshits.
And what’s with all the hate on video games? You don’t even like video games, and we do. Why is that a problem. If something makes a group of people happy and it doesn’t inherently hurt anyone else then why is that such a bad thing? Women don’t want to play video games, they just want to police the development of video games and its community. !??!?!? Seriously just fuck off. Go fight for unisex bathrooms or showing your tits or something I can get behind rather than video games that you don’t even play. All of the girlfriends I had wanted nothing to do with video games and that was okay. How would you feel if we started policing makeup, saying that makeup led to violence and should be banned? You’d hate it, because it’s a stupid baseless accusation meant only to hurt one gender. Which is exactly what the attack on video games is.
I don’t know what to say here other then you probably all need to get laid, then you’ll calm down.
Indeed, a thing of beauty.
@guy
I’m going to save that in some note to copy-paste as a reply to all “I’m only logicing here” -dudebros.
@Alan
I get the uncanny valley heebies too. I’m actually still waiting for Kim Kardashian to remove her face and reveal the Terminator metal skeleton.
@SFHC: There is a part of the “ditch them as they‘ve ditched everyone else that troubles me. These writers can put it better than I can:
Heina Dadabhoy on journalists complaining about white male atheism.
Alex Gabriel on why he still needs movement atheism.
Stephanie Zvan echoing Heina’s point.
There are marginalized groups for whom movement atheism, and the concomitant fight to recognize discrimination against atheists, matters far more than it does to me, a left-wing cishet white man in the south of the United States. All I really have to do is lie to my grandmother for a few more years. For others who don’t share my privileges, and who more strongly identify with their atheism, letting movement atheism go to the wolves and be defined by the ideas of Dawkins, Harris, Maher, et. al., and potentially going back into the closet, is much more threatening.
We wouldn’t tell a liberal Muslim that they shouldn’t care about how Islam is perceived; that they should stop fighting and let Islam be defined by its worst voices; or that because the worst voices have such a loud platform, that identifying as a Muslim should no longer be important to them.
I don’t think we should do it to progressive atheists who identify with their atheism, either.
Apologies for the tl;dr.
At this point I’m just happy I stopped caring about movement atheism a few years ago. At least I don’t have to feel like it’s MY movement is being destroyed by these assholes.
10 secondes of venting : I have a french friend who is intelligent, and yet think the Last Week Tonight apply fully to his country (France) even though it’s on USA.
He have a huge critical spirit problem. Parallels may be drawn, but saying that people can’t say they are socialist in France, for example, is downright ridiculous when it’s the self applied label of the current governement.
@littleknown
Nothing prevents them from leaving and forming their own branch or whatever you want to call it, which, in a sense, they have been doing with freethought blog. However, if one sticks with the Dawkins/Harris/Hicthens branch of atheism, they can forget about reforming it: it’s completely fucked up beyond hope and there is no saving it because the movement has come to be populated by zealots whose total and utter conviction in what they’re doing skews their moral and rational compass.
I also can’t help but feel like the situation with Islam isn’t analogous: Muslims living in North America already have systemic problems like having the surveilance state on their back that atheists simply do not. In fact, prominent atheists such as Sam Harris and Bill Maher have been outspoken proponents of this policy. Further, there is a geopolitical and colonialist history to Islamophobia there that simply does not apply to atheism.
(I can’t believe I just noticed this, but I want to high-five Carr for also using the oglaf fox icon. 😀 )
It’s evil to wear makeup because it’s deceptive.
It’s evil to not look perfect because it makes their boners sad.
The only thing we can do to prove we’re not evil boner killing man haters is roll out of bad looking like a Victoria’s Secret model in a photoshopped ad. That no one looks like that without makeup, lighting, and computer manipulation, including the models, is the point. It’s a handy excuse to hate women. Otherwise they’d be angry with the advertising, fashion, and cosmetics industries for selling a standard of beauty that no one can achieve. That’s what’s truly deceptive. The notion that one can be flawlessly beautiful.
@littleknown
exactly.
more privileged atheists are sometimes blind to what horrors other atheist face in non secular countries.
in many cases atheist are so much oppressed that their whole existence is outlawed and only a few group like gays would share this fate.
@David N-T
unfortunately this view is very western-centric, muslims face a far better situation in the west than what atheist face in most religious(specially islamic or christian) countries be it theocratic state or just a country with religious majority.
Atheophobia lingers in many countries even a secular state like USA:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/in-atheists-we-distrust/
atheist and non-religious people are not only oppressed and feared/hated they also don’t have enough voice defending them and there aren’t many organized and powerful countries or organizations to back them up(unlike muslims).
so i agree that the situation with Islam isn’t analogous, it’s much worse for atheist globally!
@ thread,
Can we not play oppression Olympics please?
When has any good ever come out of arguing which groups have it better or worse?
@EJ (The Other One), @Ohlman:
I can see how the dice puts people off, and I agree that they’re super expensive. Especially since you have to buy two bags of them to feel like you have enough!
There are some dice apps, one official that you need to pay for, and a few that are free, so that does get around that particular price.
The books are about the same price as the Players Guide I bought for 5e (which might be the best 60 bucks I’ve ever spent, I’ve used it and lent it out so often) so as a player, this is about the same amount of expense as any other game I’ve played.
I guess it’s like any other system, it depends on your group and the GM. We’re not quite Team Silly Hats in this one, though we do have a droid called M1-LK who is the Milkman, feared throughout the Galaxy! The best time was when he decided to create a distraction, so he had on his pink frilly apron, spun his head around in circles continuously and walked forward carrying a tray with glasses of different milks on it yelling something about delivering milk.
…. Maybe we are still Team Silly Hats.
I’ve never played the old d6 games, and I’d actually really love to play a few shorter campaigns of the older D&D systems, just to get a feel for them, and what has changed. ONE DAY.
On topic: I don’t wear makeup, I hate wearing it so much. So… I guess I’m not lying to dudes?
I’m guessing that the OP isn’t aware that some men use makeup as well. Oh who am I kidding, of course the OP doesn’t know, or more likely doesn’t care, that his ridiculous teal deer oversimplifies quite a huge amount of things.
As for playing video games, I’m sure that I’d be considered “casual scum” by the OP and his ilk, since the only games I’m currently playing are a humorous online MMORPG parody featuring pop culture references and crudely drawn stick figures, and an RPG parody that I play on my own. My Europa Universalis IV gaming is currently on hiatus, and that’s pretty much the only “serious” game that I’ve played in the last couple of years.
As for Dawkins and the rest of the movement atheist crowd, I really feel ashamed that I used to be a fanboy of theirs. I really was on my way to developing into an MRA-bro but luckily my better self reasserted itself.
@David N-T:
I don’t think the situations are the same, but I do think they are analogous. To say that Muslims have it worse; therefore, progressive atheists should not care about how society views atheism, and should not fight to change the perception of atheism as a movement from one that is Dawkins-centric, Islamophobic, and privileged; seems itself to be a “not as bad as” fallacy.
Saying that
comes across to me as a bit hand-wavy. When I hear an ex-Muslim woman describe in great detail her depression and identity crisis after leaving Islam, taking off her hijab, and trying to pick out a wardrobe and a hairstyle and look at herself in the mirror, I don’t feel it is my place to say, “I’m sorry you feel so strongly about atheism and why women should be free to wear what they want, but Richard Dawkins has said some horrible things about Islam, and I’ve heard from Muslim women who say that the hijab is empowering, so I think you should be quiet.”
What defines someone as a “movement” atheist? Agreeing lockstep with Dawkins and Harris? Identifying with GamerGate? To me, it is really just an atheist who feels that the criticism of religion is more taboo than it should be.
Some of the strongest and most detailed arguments documenting and criticizing Islamophobia that I have seen have come from progressive atheists who share a belief with Dawkins and Harris that believing things on faith is inherently dangerous, and who would agree that codes of dress that require women to cover up are inherently dis-empowering.
And again, I’ll make the point: I, and many of us here, come from a place of privilege. It is easy for me to say, “I don’t identify with atheism.” I don’t have hardly anything to lose. But I can imagine how I would feel if I did, and people were telling me, “Richard Dawkins now speaks for you, since he gets all of the press coverage. Stop trying to reclaim atheism. Call yourself something else.”
On the topic of policing makeup, I was told today by a coworker that I should have worn makeup to work today. I never wear makeup. It causes me physical pain and I have very little desire to wear it (I’ve recently started experimenting a little, but for fun and I’ve never worn makeup to work at this job). It’s so incredibly hurtful that he feels like my appearance is so subpar that he decided to tell me I should change it. I’m really upset right now.
@WWTH: Sorry for the de-rail, and I hope I haven’t come across as a sponsor of the Oppression Olympics. I wish it were easier to criticize the voices of the privileged bullies, and lift up the voices of the marginalized, without all of the “but what about?”, and I hope I haven’t done that. I will gladly stop.
@kupo: Your co-worker is a jerk, I hope he steps on a bunch of legos tonight. Who does that??
On topic, @kupo: that’s fucking goddamn bullshit. I’m absolutely sure you look just fine. The biggest joke of the OP: that you miserable, insecure chucklefuckers aren’t already policing makeup.
Sorry for posting so many times.
That’s total bullshit, kupo. Your colleague should feel welcome to wear the makeup himself if he feels strongly about it.
@Ohlmann
That relates to another reason I’ve kind of cooled on movement atheism, at least in its current form; implementation of progressive politics inevitably reduces religiosity. When there’s a state social safety net in place, when people mostly have confidence that nobody’s going to up and shoot them, beat them, etc., when people have legal rights that the law actually enforces, and, of course, when people know that nobody’s going to lock them up/torture/execute them for admitting that they aren’t religious (and I know that France is hardly perfect on these points, but you get my drift), then they a) have less need to toe the church line to get access to (insufficient) charity, and b) have less incentive to cling to any thread of possible hope or control, however slim, with all their might.
@SFHC
But that’s the thing; movement atheism actually did start with valid points, re: religion in government, while the GamerGaters were assholes throwing a tantrum from day one. That said, there’s also now effectively 2 atheist movements, the one spearheaded by the so-called 4 horsemen (Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and Dennett, IIRC), which is made up principally of obnoxious douchebros, and the movement characterized by folks like Greta Christina, Heina Dadabhoy & Zinnia Jones (I know that’s a kind of parochial list).
@Guy
This, this so much.
@arash
Calling the USA a secular state is rather a stretch, honestly.
@Rhuu
I have, and I can’t say I recommend WEG’s Star Wars game very much. New editions might have improved it, I had the first edition from ’87. I haven’t played D&D 5e, but I prefer 2e to any of the later editions I have played. I won’t touch 4e with the proverbial 10 foot pole, and 3e isn’t much good, but 3.5/Pathfinder’s decent for what it is.
@kupo:
I’m sorry they have you working with someone who is new to being around humans. Had I observed this exchange I’d have sent an enquiry about any positions opening in the basement-area, where he might feel more at home.
Littleknown,
It was David N-T and Arash’s posts I was referring to. I don’t think you have anything to apologize for.
I just don’t want the thread to turn into a “atheist oppression can’t exist because some atheists are assholes!” vs. “atheists are the only real oppressed group!” thing.
“I have, and I can’t say I recommend WEG’s Star Wars game very much. New editions might have improved it, I had the first edition from ’87. I haven’t played D&D 5e, but I prefer 2e to any of the later editions I have played. I won’t touch 4e with the proverbial 10 foot pole, and 3e isn’t much good, but 3.5/Pathfinder’s decent for what it is.”
I do have the opposite position on everything :p
AD&D2 is an antiquated unprofessional edition, and only the lore book are worth anything now. Regardless of what the goal of someone is, there is a better tool to do it : there are some very good, simpler system if you concentrate on non combat stuff, and if you want to actually simulates difficult battles, 3rd and 4th are designed to allow that.
A good example of what can be kept of 2nd edition is the planescape and Dark Suns book. For most, you can just ignore all mechanics, read the lore, and use something a bit better done to play in that universe. Planescape in particular just don’t work very well with the D&D rules, regardless of the edition.
3rd and 4th are very different games, even if they are in the same corner of “I think combats are importants and should have tacticals elements and room for hilarious failure”. 4th paradoxically need a lot of imagination to describe what you actually do in a way that make sense in context, or if your character is a bit different from the archetype. 3rd can be very complex (but less so than 2nd edition overall), but it’s also precise enough that imaginative and disciplined people can relatively easily see if something is doable. It also allow for an insane amount of customisation.
5th is a lot simpler than 3rd and 4th, and less combat orientated too, but not simple enough to replace better done systems.
And, of course, the d6 books of Westwood are oh so very good if you want something simple. The 87′ one certainly show his age (less so than AD&D2), but it’s one of the early incarnation of “you have a simple way to deal with everything”, and I do like the force system too. The various sourcebook are some of the better source on star war ever in my opinion too.
Ahem, sorry for the not-too-related rant. Even if tabletop gaming is a domain who can have a lot of the same problem as atheist and gamer community, depending on with who you play with. And a sense of smug superiority is common, which alway make me roll eyes.
@Everyone
Thanks. I brushed it off with, “Pfft, I don’t wear makeup!” and I don’t plan on pushing any further on it. He’s from a different office and will be flying home soon, so at least he’ll soon be spared from looking at my horribly disfigured visage. 😉
@Venice:
My hat’s off to you. I love the XCOM games but I’m not very good at them. Finishing the game with only a squad size of 4 is impressive.
I had dismissed the gunslinger skills, but now I’m reconsidering, especially since Deadeye doesn’t feel that much more powerful than a regular shot.
Women at tabletop games feels natural to me because, in my twenty years of
praying to the dice godsgaming, the tables with women have far outnumbered the tables without.When my children get older, I hope they’ll be interested in tabletop, and I will do my best to prevent them thinking of games as boys’ toys.
(They’re getting there — they’re turning 3 tomorrow! I will have pics!)