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Viking-bearded manbaby predicts end of civilization if feminists keep being so feministy

Uh oh.
Uh oh.

Ok, so I don’t want to alarm you or anything but one of those Men’s Rights Activists they have so many of over on Reddit has some genuine concerns about western civilization, specifically with regard to its possible imminent collapse, due to feminists being so damn feministy and making men so mad — totally justifiably, bros! — that they’re going to stop wanting to have babies with ladies any more, thus leading to the end of civilization, as referred to earlier in this sentence.

Well, shoot, I think that might have been his whole argument right there, but let’s take a look at his post anyway, which he has helpfully if ungrammatically titled “Genuine concern that due to the actions of 3rd wave feminists and the rise of MGTOW The western world is reaching a point of possible collapse.”

Oh, and if you’re wondering about the viking beard thing, I looked at some of his older comments and he seems to like talking about his beard, so I thought I would mention it.

So let’s move right along and get into the meat of Mr. BlightedArrow91’s warning re. that impending end of civilization thing.

Mr. BlightedArrow91 starts off his post, which as you may recall was entitled “”Genuine concern that due to the actions of 3rd wave feminists and the rise of MGTOW The western world is reaching a point of possible collapse” by noting that he’s worried “that the actions of feminists and SJW’s … will lead to the decline of western civilization.”

Ok, so like the first thing you need to sustain a civilization is babies. Specifically, 2.1 babies per family. But alas, feminists hate babies! And so, due to

the lack of and attack on new families and the family lifestyle, and several other factors caused and perpetuated by feminists as a whole, I’m genuinely worried that western civilization will be dead within the next 30-100 years.

Ok, so to sum up what we’ve learned so far: feminists hate babies and, wait, what was the other thing? Oh yeah, this dude is apparently worried about western civilization, with regard to the whole “possible collapse” thing. I think he might have mentioned that a couple of times.

Now bear with me, I know this sounds a little crazy at first, but let’s take a look at a few of the finer details here, Over the last 20 years there has been two major surges of sjw and third wave feminist culture, it’s been there the whole time, it was just much bigger during the 90’s, and now.

Ok, twenty years, two big surges of feminism.

During both surges the birthrate and marriage rate of the western world has dropped significantly.

Uh oh!

With the current justifiable rise and increase of MGTOW and the ever increasing craziness, aggression, and regressive nature of third-wave feminists,and the needed TFR(total fertility rate) of 2.1 annually, This number of decreased births and decreased marriages will grow and grow.

Ok, look, you just have to get used to the fact that this dude doesn’t really understand when to capitalize words. Now that we’ve got that out of the way, oh no!

If that number does grow, the likelihood of a TFR and subsequent population replacement level decline will be inevitable, which will eventually lead to the fall of western civilization.

In other words, there’s going to be a baby shortage. I don’t want to cause a panic or anything, but you may need to start hoarding babies.

Luckily, they’re generally pretty small, if noisy and a bit smelly.

Now, obviously — obviously! –feminism can’t last forever. I mean, even a viking-bearded manbaby who can’t capitalize words correctly can see that.

Now don’t get me wrong, I do understand that the SJW and third-wave feminist cultures will die down eventually, but will the backlashes created from both movements be let go of, and will we not see another resurgence of them in the near future afterward?

I don’t actually understand the question, so let’s just say “maybe?”

Now that MRA’s actually are making headway and will eventually show the average male exactly how stacked society is against them are we going to see an even larger rise of MGTOW and men just saying fuck it?

I guess maybe yes? I mean, the standard reaction most dudes have when they hear about or run into MGTOWs is “I want to be more like these bitter manbabies who spend their entire lives complaining about the women they supposedly totally don’t need and that means you too mom, I hear you out there in the hall!”

I mean, it’s not like most dudes hear about MGTOW and say, what the hell is wrong with these sad, angry doofuses?

Anyway, Mr. BlightedArrow91 isn’t done talking yet.

Going by the fact that two PC culture and SJW surges have happened both in 1991-2000, and 2011-present, is it not possible to surmise that by 2031 we will see another rise of both?

Wait what? I’m going to go with “maybe” again.

I fear, that if the future follows the past 20 years history of whining over trivialities,lies,and myths, and the constant demonizing of men, we will see this pattern continue, and we will see a large population decline from men refusing to mate, which could possibly lead to the same happening from the opposite gender, and if this does happen, we very well may be on the beginning trail of the end of the west.

Wait, is this just the first paragraph again?

Are we in some kind of weird Groundhog Day time loop, but instead of gallivanting around Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania and rescuing kids who fall out of trees and learning how to ice sculpt and play the piano and basically get in touch with our own soul, we have to read half-baked MRA manifestos over and over again until our brains fall out?

I’m going to go with “maybe” again.

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Orion
Orion
5 years ago

EJ,

Like you, I tend to conflate the 2nd to 3rd wave transition with the feminist sex wars and assume the 2nd waver was anti-porn and the 3rd wave was “sex-positive.” Actually those were different things. I checked Wikipedia and it looks like the feminist sex wars were originally fought among second-wavers, and the rise of the “3rd wave” was an actual generational change. The 3rd-wavers just happened to be coming of age around the same time their mothers were fighting the porn wars.

That said, based on personal observation the “sex-positive” camp seems to be ascendant, and several of the most iconic 2nd-wavers were of the anti-porn faction, so perhaps it’s a fair association.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

So nice to know I’m doing my part to contribute to the downfall of Western Civilization by refusing to have any (not even white) babies.

Also, David, have you used that header image for an article before? I distinctly remember you using that for another article, but it was some time ago.

Bina
5 years ago

So nice to know I’m doing my part to contribute to the downfall of Western Civilization by refusing to have any (not even white) babies.

Samesies. And really, given the mess it’s made of the world, “Western Civilization” can’t go kaplooey soon enough for me.

Orion
Orion
5 years ago

Now, mere opposition or sex work, pornography, and fanservice isn’t definitely 2nd or 3rd wave (Well, nothing is *definitely* 2nd or 3rd), but underneath all that I sometimes see a profound distrust of all our culture’s constructs of sex and romance that feels a bit MacKinnon or Dworkinesque. I’m used to seeing contemporary feminist critics calling out sexist tropes in individual stories, but sometimes Sarkeesian appears to take it as given that depictions of romance are harmful as a rule.

For example, in “5 creepy and/or sexist christmas songs,” she listed “All I Want For Christmas Is You,” which she deemed sexist merely because it portrays romance as something desirable. It doesn’t make sense unless it’s grounded in an Intercourse-style assertion that all existing romantic narratives are tainted by patriarchy.

Jamesworkshop
Jamesworkshop
5 years ago

@Orion

I think those topics are primarily 3rd wave ones.

Due to the online nature of her work she fits very much in the fourth wave category.

Kira Cochrane, editor of All the Rebel Women, defines fourth wave feminism as a movement that is connected through technology.[2] Researcher, Diana Diamond, defines fourth wave feminism as a movement that “combines politics, psychology, and spirituality in an overarching vision of change.”[3]

Fourth wave feminism is often associated with online feminism, especially using Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, Tumblr, and other forms of social media to discuss, uplift, and activate gender equality and social justice.[4]

The internet has created a ‘call-out’ culture, in which sexism or misogyny can be ‘called out’ and challenged.[5]

This culture is indicative of the continuing influence of the third wave, with its focus on micropolitics and challenging sexism and misogyny insofar as they appear in everyday rhetoric, advertising, film, television and literature, the media, and so on.[6]

This online feminism aspect of the fourth wave has impacted how companies market to women so that they are not “called out” for sexism in their marketing strategies.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-wave_of_feminism

Point [6] is pretty much her videos and her twitter combined, along with the political leanings.

Mostly 4th wave is about strategies using modern technology and it’s effects on the discourse.

Jamesworkshop
Jamesworkshop
5 years ago

Ultimately it doesn’t matter, she is who she is and she does as she does, no person neatly fits in any box, which is fitting to anyone that considers the metaphysical gender binary to be fundamentally flawed by this false belief.

Sex work hasn’t been featured in her work excessively, in nearly every game she has featured, the sex workers were always targets of abuse, and to me her criticisms were like those people had of Game of Thrones, it wasn’t that they disagreed with any fictional rape, but instead objected to the specific nature of how the show constantly used it for cheap ratings or just to advance a male characters narative.

Orion
Orion
5 years ago

It strikes me as implausible to think that James, EJ, and I are the resident experts on feminist history, especially when James is pasting in Wikipedia articles and I’m ineptly paraphrasing them.

James, I’m tempted to push back on your take but I feel like maybe I should just wait for an actual expert to bail me out.

Friendly Neighborhood Dragon Arthur
Friendly Neighborhood Dragon Arthur
5 years ago

I’m glad to be contributing to the downfall of western civilization by not planning on having kids and never growing a beard.

Yes, I said it… I will keep shaving until I die. I will never grow a disgusting looking lump of hair that looks like a dead animal on my face.

Because elf > viking.

But really, don’t people realize that children are not play things and that there’s a such thing as overpopulation? I always think about the quote that Keanu Reeves says in Parenthood about the issues of parenting (this may not be accurate by the way):

“You need a license to drive a car, a license to own a pet, hell, you need a license to fish… But any asshole can by a parent.”

Child abuse and neglect is a problem that most manospherians pretend doesn’t exist it seems.

Jamesworkshop
Jamesworkshop
5 years ago

@Orion
I’m not an expert, just offering a perspective, Only she can truly answer this question.

To me her wider social justice credentials (would like to see her also move towards addressing ableism too) makes her 3rd wave and maybe beyond.

Fourth wave is in the modern era and thus it cannot be placed in a history framework like 2nd wave can be, it’s young, growing and evolving.

Scildfreja
Scildfreja
5 years ago

elf > viking

But.. but, Dragon, we put figureheads of you on our ships and made you into flags and everything! How could you?

:C

Ddog
Ddog
5 years ago

I think that Sarkeesian is very modern in her feminism. I find some things she’s said or opined on to be at odds with my own opinions but overall I quite enjoy her work.

TW for abuse/sex negative attitudes

That said I am battling my own deeply ingrained negative attitude to sex/sex work. Sex always frightened me and when I first developed thoughts on it and feminism I kind of fell into the mindset of most sex work being a form of abuse because I couldn’t envision someone not being frightened by it. That probably sounds very convoluted but basically I’m trying to battle my own mixed up feelings toward some aspects of feminism, and I’m especially trying to work on my feelings of sex as an extension of abuse. I know that it isn’t right but my gut reaction (like the emotional reaction) is nearly always opposite to my thoughts once I’ve stepped away from the feelings any mention of similar subjects bring up. I think my own history of abuse has left me feeling overly cautious or fearful.

Sorry for the babble, I think this is an interesting discussion and my thoughts just flowed out

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 years ago

“Because elf > viking. ”

Amusingly, I know of at least one game where elf *are* vikings.

Which make sense, because in older myths they were superior to human in every aspect. The archetypal wood-loving elf is a very recent construction. As is the effeminate, very culturate but degenerate one (I look at you, World of Warcraft).

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

I’m raising a house full of feminists. Somehow I don’t think this guy aproves of me either.

Good.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Bina | February 15, 2016 at 4:06 pm

So nice to know I’m doing my part to contribute to the downfall of Western Civilization by refusing to have any (not even white) babies.

Samesies. And really, given the mess it’s made of the world, “Western Civilization” can’t go kaplooey soon enough for me.

Something, something Pat Robertson.

[Feminism] is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

Well, 3 and 3/4 out of 7 isn’t too bad, I suppose.

I mean, I am a socialist, I don’t have a husband, I don’t have children (and even if I did, I don’t condone ever harming a child, let alone murdering them), I do practice witchcraft, I do want to destroy capitalism, and I’m a pansexual, not a lesbian.

Mish Singh
Mish Singh
5 years ago

Not claiming expert status for myself, but some knowledge re feminism and its ‘waves’ (from teaching & researching feminism & sexuality for 20-odd years). Also, this comment is not a corrective to anything that’s been said here – just adding my own thoughts.
Agree with lightcastle, first, that the whole ‘wave’ thing is problematic (deeply so, imo). I try to only use it as a very general, heavily qualified term. It tends to create more difficulties than it solves, & this is especially pronounced with the notions of 2nd, 3rd (& now 4th?) wave feminism.
Anyhoo, 2nd wave F was not as blinkered about differences between women as is often assumed, but it was an issue, yes. Debates over lesbianism and its relation to F were there almost from the start, & women of colour were contributing & critiquing also basically from the beginning.
2nd-wave F was absolutely not anti-sex, as some have already pointed out. The Dworkin-style pov was influential, certainly, but much of 1970s feminism was robustly … well, raunchy :). The sex debates, which took up the late 70s and much of the 80s, are an incredible illustration of the range of F ‘takes’ on sexuality issues. However, heterosexuality and/in feminism was & continues to be unresolved in some ways (in theory, not necessarily in practice).
I wanted to say some stuff about Sarkeesian, too, but this is already one of those tl;dr comments. Abbreviated, it would be something like: not sure how valuable/useful it is to place her work within the wave concept of feminism.
Enjoying all today’s comments hugely!

EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Abbreviated, it would be something like: not sure how valuable/useful it is to place her work within the wave concept of feminism.

Thanks, Mish Singh.

darkstatistic
darkstatistic
5 years ago

You know, if these dudes were really actually concerned with the birthrate, they’d suck it up and breed with a post-wall former carousellor, who according to their narrative is sad and lonely and owns a lot of cats and would leap at the chance of having a man around and a bun in the oven. I mean, I know fertility drops off after a certain point, but it’s not immediately gone as soon as you blow out thirty candles. But that would require an honesty that these dudes aren’t ready for — they’re not worried about babies per se, they’re worried about having a hawt young thang keeping house for them.

But then, we all already know this, so… *resumes semi-lurk mode*

Mortarius
Mortarius
5 years ago

[quote] None that I know of, but in fairness, there haven’t been a lot of historical civilizations based on the giant Ponzi scheme that is capitalism. I can theoretically imagine a capitalist system collapsing when it turns out people can’t keep consuming more and more products every year for eternity. But IANAE. Any actual economists want to weigh in? [/quote]

This comment will be long sorry.

Actual Economist here! It is theoretically possible for capitalism to collapse if the population levels off, falling consumption could lead to a persistent weakness of demand -> falling interest rates to stimulate investment and borrowing to spend -> A lot of those investments going bad and loans not being paid due to weakness persisting -> deflation as prices and wages are cut -> people putting off spending because prices are falling all the time and increasing the stock of savings which only exacerbates the previous.

However, this is theoretical. In practice Europe and Japan have seen interest rates at zero for some time now. Europe has demonstrated that, contrary to theoretical models, deflation is very difficult in practice as workers will not accept wage cuts and most businesses will not concede the defeat of lower prices across the board. That is prices are stickier than we imagined in theory. Japan saw some actual deflation and a seriously aging population but has sort of slumped into a low-growth capitalist equilibrium.

So collapse due to birthrates being weak is unlikely in practice, even in a nation like Japan that largely excludes immigration.

As for growing forever, you kind of can consume more and more for eternity. Yes growing forever in the sense of simply turning out more stuff by consuming more resources and selling it to a growing population is unsustainable, but there is no reason why growth can’t be achieved in sustainable ways:

– Increasing efficiency, producing more with fewer resource inputs raises growth.

– Improving quality without greater resources, people don’t have to consume more every year if they consume better things. Consumption can rise by for example improving internet services.

– Increasing durability and recyclability, items that need to be replaced less often and that can be reused will depress growth in the short term but raise it long term by reducing churning costs (churning costs include the unnecessary labour/transaction costs involved in repair/replacement of items and disposal of waste items).

However nothing guarantees this will come to pass, as a human system nothing is certain except that the choices are ours.

katz
5 years ago

Due to the online nature of her work she fits very much in the fourth wave category.

Oh god, I forbid there being a fourth wave. The first three are poorly understood enough.

Would it be overly reductive to say that third-wave feminism is the feminism we live in now, and anyone who is a feminist and participates in the general modern feminist community is a third-waver? Because it seems more clear and useful to me to divide by era instead of tenets.

Mortarius
Mortarius
5 years ago

My personal opinions (shared by some papers/books I read in my degree) on how capitalism could collapse:

1. (The Bad Way): Policies pushing unsustainable growth and capture of policy making by rent seekers and an increasingly wealthy super-elite produces rising inequality coupled with inefficiency, persistently weak growth and an endless creep of the market into non-market/common good areas of life which only makes impoverishment more oppressive and inescapable than the past. Eventually this becomes politically untenable and is one way or another overthrown.

In the bad way as an example of oppressive: Consider a scary world where everything you do charges your credit card and your life is reduced to a constant calculation of the price of every movement. The footpath costs a few cents but the road with the AI car costs a few dollars based on distance, only items and services rentable by the minute are available to the poor, creating a constant time pressure stress. Parks charge entry when you enter the radius and public seating costs extra. Capitalism crushes us enough already. This logic is hard to fight as user-pays is strictly speaking more efficient and appeals to a logic of personal responsibility and individualism.

2. (The Good way): Technological progress outpaces the above, increasing automation and the development of AI and 3D printing (matter compilers) replaces more and more jobs. Capitalism responds by producing more “pointless jobs” (to sponge up this excess wealth) which we already see in the explosive growth of finance, middle managers, supervisory roles, lawyers, marketers, social media managers, SEO specialists, CEO/Executives and many more. Eventually we reach a breaking point where too many jobs are automated and so few remaining jobs are “real and necessary” that a transition to a kind of post-scarcity socialism occurs where only a few people who want to be necessary are required to work and everyone else does what they want to varying success.

As an example consider how ad revenue supports blogs like this and many artists and works of art in our world today, this is effectively capitalism subsidizing a class of people who do what they want. A combination of AI’s and 3D printers could destroy capitalism because if these items can re-create themselves then ownership of the means of production immediately diversifies in the same way ownership of music diversifies as soon as a home computer could make infinite copies of a record. In the bad way future we would legislate to inhibit such reproduction by IP law.

Oh man I went overboard.

katz
5 years ago

– Increasing durability and recyclability, items that need to be replaced less often and that can be reused will depress growth in the short term but raise it long term by reducing churning costs (churning costs include the unnecessary labour/transaction costs involved in repair/replacement of items and disposal of waste items).

I don’t get this one. Sure, there’s reduced cost, but I’m not sure how that promotes growth. If you take it to the theoretical extreme where everyone buys something once and then never needs a new one ever, then there’s no wasteful costs, but there’s also no growth, is there?

Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense, but it does seem opposite of the American model of capitalism, where they try to get everyone to replace everything more and more often.

lightcastle
lightcastle
5 years ago

I was going to circle back after cooking but I see that Mish Singh has basically made any further points I was going to. 🙂

Over time, (although I am quite sure my study of the history is far less rigorous), I’ve grown to dislike the wave model more and more, and dislike it the most when it becomes about tenets rather than the time frame and main focus of what battles are about. (That “first wave” sometimes gets extended back to the mid-1800s also bothers me, since that predates the naming of the movement and even back in the early 20th century you had people saying the equivalent “All feminists are suffragists, but not all suffragists are feminists” to distinguish themselves as a new movement. )

As has become my mantra more and more as I get older, “Actually, it’s more complicated than that.” *grin*

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

So….when does 4th wave feminism start? It seems like we’d have gotten to 5th wave by now. So many things with ‘othering’ to change into “Us”*.

*Does not refer to the United States.

Mish
Mish
5 years ago
Reply to  lightcastle

lightcastle, exactly, yes (ps what did you cook? I’m hungry).
The wave thing has its uses if it’s referring to historical periods, but not so much as a catch-all description of feminisms. One of my colleagues once said that the problem with the wave metaphor is the implied assumption of ‘troughs’ (i.e. absence of feminism) in between.

Re some of the earlier comments on Sarkeesian et al, I think that use of technology has had significant impacts on how feminism is theorised & practised, but again I wouldn’t use another ‘wave’ to describe this.

“It’s more complicated than that” can be applied to just about anything. I love it 🙂

katz
5 years ago

(The Good way): Technological progress outpaces the above, increasing automation and the development of AI and 3D printing (matter compilers) replaces more and more jobs. Capitalism responds by producing more “pointless jobs” (to sponge up this excess wealth) which we already see in the explosive growth of finance, middle managers, supervisory roles, lawyers, marketers, social media managers, SEO specialists, CEO/Executives and many more. Eventually we reach a breaking point where too many jobs are automated and so few remaining jobs are “real and necessary” that a transition to a kind of post-scarcity socialism occurs where only a few people who want to be necessary are required to work and everyone else does what they want to varying success.

This one doesn’t necessarily work though, because a post-work economy doesn’t necessarily translate into a post-scarcity economy as long as corporations have the ability to create scarcity and profit off it. Like if Star Trek replicators existed, you know they’d copyright the patterns to the replicator items and you’d need to pay to license the pattern or some shit, similar to software, which could also be post-scarcity but isn’t because profit.

For instance, the automation of the manufacturing industry didn’t create shorter work hours for higher wages, as a lot of people predicted; instead it concentrated more wealth at the top and created more competition for less secure, lower-paid jobs.

Tragedy of the Commas
Tragedy of the Commas
5 years ago

@ msexceptiontotherule

Hey, fellow gnarly WHTM reader, it doesn’t matter what wave you slash. Just so long as you’re catchin’ waves, dude! You’re totally rad to me no matter who your surfin’ buddies are, brah. Stay stoked and feminist!

Right. I’ll see myself out.

Mish
Mish
5 years ago

@Tragedy of the Commas

… please don’t leave (injections of un-serious are always welcome)

Orion
Orion
5 years ago

Katz, (@ Mortarius, et al.)

If you read sci-fi you might really like The Diamond Age (Or, A Young Lady’s Educated Primer) by Neal Stephenson. It’s got that exact premise of DRM-locked replicators and a plotline about gadgets designed to educate young girls either to run the system or to destroy it.

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
5 years ago

zoon echon logon

I also get tired of pointing this out to Malthusian environmentalists who seem to want impose a one child policy or something …

This is a biiiiig talking point among people that many would regard as progressive-greenie-leftie, and the majority of these people see themselves that way, but whose underlying authoritarianism shines out like a homing beacon when you’re talking climate change or related topics.

If you genuinely want to reduce population growth and to improve people’s lives, going all Mao’s China or Indira Gandhi’s India of decades ago is a pretty bad idea. Penalties for “too many” children along with compulsory abortions & sterilisations sounds like dystopia on steroids. The way to control &or reduce human populations is to concentrate on education of girls along with employment and business opportunities for girls and women – because you really want to increase the mean age at first birth for mothers. There are 40ish countries at the bottom of this list where the mean age at first birth is 20 or younger. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/People/Mother%27s-mean-age-at-first-birth

What you really need to do is to reduce the number of generations of a family alive at the one time rather than take controlling &or punitive action against any woman or couple for exceeding their allocated quota of babies. If two cities-regions-countries have exactly the same number of children born per woman, they will have vastly different populations if women in one country have their first child at 20 and the other is at 30 years old. In the first, a 60 year old woman could be/ will soon be a great grandmother. In the second, a woman cannot become a grandmother until that age. One whole generation is omitted when you take that granny and first grandchild/whole family photo in the second group. (If all those countries at the bottom of that list had introduced such policies 10 or more years ago, the world’s population would be about a billion less than it is now – because 75-90% of children under 10 would not yet have been born.)

The difference being that the next generation has not yet been born — not that a heartless bureaucrat has decreed that some people are prohibited from having any, or more, children. And the country with the young/ too young mothers will have a much, much larger population than that with the 30 year old mothers within 25 years of them starting at the same population.

Strangely, the authoritarians don’t jump at the chance to slow population growth and make life better for women all in one neatly wrapped package. What a surprise! If they can’t get all bossy with people about when and whether they have children or turn on heating or travel to work, they’re not really interested. At heart, they’re really puritans, far too much like those original settlers in America for my taste.

Catalpa
Catalpa
5 years ago

I, too, have done my part for the glorious feminist goal of bringing western civilization crashing down, as my lily-white uterus will never bear any children. Hail Katie!

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

@Tragedy of the Commas

You mean I should be going in the ocean?? EW. People pee in there! And it involves bathing suits…just because I wear one to give my dog a bath* doesn’t mean I go outside in the sun with it on (nor any other swimwear). I already use enough sunscreen daily to consider investing in company stock (my spending on Neutrogena alone…:P) I’d need a truckload annually if I were slathering it all over.

*I get into the tub to bath the dog, and it would be extremely weird to be naked in a tub with the dog. Well, for me it would. And anyone who has a different view that is gross, please don’t share it on here.

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

I’ve got nothing to add of a scholarly nature.

I just wanted to say that the kitty is majorly cute.

sbel
sbel
5 years ago

Like nearly everything from MGTOWs, it’s more of threat than it is a prediction.
“If you feminists don’t stop being so mean to us, we’ll stop providing sperm to make white babies! And that will destroy Western Civilization! And then you’ll be sorry!”

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

D’oh edit window over, that’s bathe not bath.

masque d'étoiles
masque d'étoiles
5 years ago

@Ddog

basically I’m trying to battle my own mixed up feelings toward some aspects of feminism, and I’m especially trying to work on my feelings of sex as an extension of abuse. I know that it isn’t right but my gut reaction (like the emotional reaction) is nearly always opposite to my thoughts once I’ve stepped away from the feelings any mention of similar subjects bring up. I think my own history of abuse has left me feeling overly cautious or fearful.

Thank you thank you thank you for neatly summing up the squicky feelings and thought processes that wage war with an open mind when my similar hair-triggers are touched on. To me it feels very telling that all of my slightly “conservative” instincts, or perhaps they are knee-jerk reactions, regarding issues such as sex work and porn come out of that place of damage and fear, not out of logic and data and non-abusive experience. It’s something to keep in mind as we boggle at the tantrums and teeth-gnashing of the manbaby faction.

Surfing the various feminist waves is exhilarating. I came of age during the tail end of the second, assimilated most of wave three over the following several decades, and now find myself struggling to keep up with wave four while scanning the horizon for the next one. I do wonder what the eighth will concern itself with! (And whether any of these backward-glancing MGTOWs will have up and taken their leave by then.)

Jamesworkshop
Jamesworkshop
5 years ago

Because it seems more clear and useful to me to divide by era instead of tenets.

4th wave it is then 😉

EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Thank you, Mortarius. That was genuinely interesting and I learned a great deal. One question if I may:

I read a pop-economics book a few years ago called The Age of Ageing, by George Magnus. Magnus argues, amongst other things, that a large issue we’ll see in the economics of our generation will be inter-generational equity, and in particular issues caused by a) an unfavorable working-age-people to retired-people ratio, and b) the concentration of capital in the hands of old (that is, retired people). Both of these factors may lead to political issues as production is dependent upon the young but its value is captured increasingly by the old.

Do you have a view on this?

Supermeerkat
Supermeerkat
5 years ago

White guy who’s married a black women here. We have two mixed race children, so are we contributing to the downfall of western civilisation? I hope so if it annoys the author of the subject of this delightful article.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Supermeerkat | February 16, 2016 at 3:48 am
White guy who’s married a black women here. We have two mixed race children, so are we contributing to the downfall of western civilisation? I hope so if it annoys the author of the subject of this delightful article.

Nah, apparently when white men do it, it doesn’t count because it’s a white man’s right to have sex with black women, and it’s all us uppity white feminist’s fault that white men want to have sex with black women in the first place, because we want to be treated like people.

So, in short: White men can do no wrong because white men.

Playonwords
Playonwords
5 years ago

PZ Myers has put forward his 2 cents on this guy’s concerns Seven billion problems, and declining fertility isn’t one of them

His takeaway is that if population numbers are important then White European types have already lost because only 16% of world population is white and the Sino-Japanese Asian types have “won”.

My view is that if it is European type civilisation that is needed then:
1) increase the cultural and legal defenses against prejudice and hate;
2) provide a good, sound rationally based education for everybody;
3) increase the availability of healthcare including reproductive health services;
4) ameliorate the effects of poverty with assistance programs

occasional reader
occasional reader
5 years ago

Hello.
comment image
Aah ! Civilization (II.0) crashed again !
Feminists, why BSOD !?

Fertility rates
I can not really comment the figures, i do not have any knowledge in this field. I just see that France is close to 2 (even over 2, if you can believe the French page, which use the CIA figures rather than UN ones), some figures are missing (no England and Scotland ? Are they as chaste as the Vatican ?). Less infant mortality leads to a lower rate, maybe ? Child expenditures higher also, maybe ? Lower fertility due to various endocrinian and hormonal alterations thanks to pollution and incrasing chemical and social behavior ? But i do not see how feminism can be invoked here. Are the MRM people not the ones refusing to have children because they fear about possible alimonies ?

Have a nice day.

lightcastle
lightcastle
5 years ago

@Mish

lightcastle, exactly, yes (ps what did you cook? I’m hungry).

I made carbonara. (Although I tweaked it slightly and added mushrooms and spinach cooked in the pancetta.)

Tessa
Tessa
5 years ago

Sorry to derail the thread again, but when was it established Anita Sarkeesian was anti-sex or anti-sexwork? I’ve heard the gamergaters calling her anti-sex because they love to misuse terms and lack understanding of the arguments, but haven’t seen her seriously called that. Admittedly I’m mostly familiar with her video game stuff, but even before that I’d seen a few of her non video game tropes vs women.

bluecat
bluecat
5 years ago

Just wondering how many eras there have been in “Western Civilisation” when nobody has been predicting the apocalypse – none, that’s how many, given that one of our foundational documents says it’s definitely coming any time soon. And in some eras people were also certain that Western Civilisation had already collapsed, and that we were living in the twilight before the inevitable final shudder.

sevenofmine
sevenofmine
5 years ago

@ Tessa

Sorry to derail the thread again, but when was it established Anita Sarkeesian was anti-sex or anti-sexwork? I’ve heard the gamergaters calling her anti-sex because they love to misuse terms and lack understanding of the arguments, but haven’t seen her seriously called that. Admittedly I’m mostly familiar with her video game stuff, but even before that I’d seen a few of her non video game tropes vs women.

My impression of criticisms I’ve seen is less that she’s anti-sex and more that she’s not as sex-positive as some might wish. With regard to sex work, what I’ve seen is mostly criticism of certain phrasings such as referring to sex workers as “prostituted women”. The objection is to the passive phrasing which contributes to the perception that all sex workers are victims of coercion to some extent which then bolsters support for policies which undermine sex workers’ safety.

Sadly, attempts to find specific quotes from her return mostly GG sludge so I couldn’t quickly find any sources. I need to start saving links to these things when I see them so I can find them easily later. D:

Tessa
Tessa
5 years ago

sevenofmine:

My impression of criticisms I’ve seen is less that she’s anti-sex and more that she’s not as sex-positive as some might wish.

My question still stands. I’m not sure what this is based on.

With regard to sex work, what I’ve seen is mostly criticism of certain phrasings such as referring to sex workers as “prostituted women”. The objection is to the passive phrasing which contributes to the perception that all sex workers are victims of coercion to some extent which then bolsters support for policies which undermine sex workers’ safety.

Thanks! I was thinking it was more than that. I’d heard that one before, but she used that expression in a context about fictional characters with absolutely no agency and not presented with any actual in story contextual agency. She does the same thing by using “non playable sex objects” for other characters to point out that’s what they are in the context of the game.

Jamesworkshop
Jamesworkshop
5 years ago

@Tessa

In TvsW series, sex workers are only talked about in regards to the specific fictional portrayal as found in videogames, and shouldn’t be taken as being about real life examples.

“prostituted women” is precisely what those games show, from Hitman to Red Dead Redemption, the sex workers in question are either alienated background decorations, or shown being beaten by clients and pimps, they are women being used to make money for somebody else.

They aren’t sex workers because they themselves wish to be but instead, they are forced into it, “prostituted” means having been made into prostitutes by others, since in those games violence is about the only interaction a player has in that world, the player will be lead down a path of Violability. (The objectifier treats the object as lacking in boundary integrity, as something that it is permissible to break up, smash, break into)

Martha Nussbuam’s Seven Types of Objectification can be found across multiple games in their depictions of sex workers, that is what she takes issue with, I haven’t seen her express anything like a simple, if you pay or get paid to have sex then that is bad, and you are a bad person if you are involved in that.

(of course she may hold that view, it may just not have be included in her video work)

Dr. NicolaLuna
Dr. NicolaLuna
5 years ago

A lot of feminists I know, myself included, have at least one child. I have two. And yep, there are plenty of children being born every day.

My sons are super cool mini feminists though so not sure vikingdudebro would approve.

My eldest son has announced that he wants 100 babies (half his, half adopted) when he’s a grown up though so I’m sure he’ll single handedly decrease the growth of the decrease in birth rates (wording chosen purposely to mock viking, I’m better at constructing sentences than that, I think!).