Men’s Rights Activists and other antifeminists love playing “gotcha” — demanding answers to questions designed to make feminists look hypocritical or illogical or just plain dumb.
Trouble is, despite their fondness for the “gotcha” game, most MRAs and antifeminists just aren’t very good at it. Their questions, often based on gross misunderstandings, tend to reveal less about the alleged hypocrisies of feminists than they reveal about their own profound ignorance of feminism.
Let’s take a look at a few of these failed gotcha memes, collected from a couple of antifeminst Facebook pages and elsewhere online and making use of the popular philosoraptor meme template
Well, that would be because women have been systematically oppressed for thousands of years; in order to get to equality, we need to focus on the things that have held women back. It’s the same reason that the civil rights movement fought for the rights of black people instead of white people.
If you think it’s wrong to call oneself a feminist instead of a humanist or equalist or whatever, why do you support something called the Men’s Rights movement?
Uh, because fighting for the “rights” of a group of people who already have more than their fair share of privileges is backwards and silly? Because MRAs are less interested in making life better for men than they are in making things worse for women? Because most MRAs are ridiculous?
Uh, because they don’t? Feminists do sometimes point out that the overwhelming majority of rapists are men, but they don’t call all men rapists.
Er, what? That doesn’t make any sense. Among other things, ‘rapists” and “whores” aren’t equivalent categories, given that the latter category involves consensual sex and the former involves nonconsensual sex.
Do you not understand how adjectives work? When feminists talk about “toxic masculinity” they don’t mean that masculinity itself is inherently toxic any more than someone referring to a “red car” means that all cars are red. Some kinds of masculinity can be toxic; that’s what feminists are taking about when they talk about “toxic masculinity. As the Geek Feminism wiki explains it, “toxic masculinity … refers to the socially-constructed attitudes that describe the masculine gender role as violent, unemotional, sexually aggressive, and so forth.
I don’t know why so many MRAs still don’t understand this; it’s certainly been explained to them more than enough times. And do MRAs not know how to use Google? That Geek Feminism definition I quoted above is literally the first result you get if you Google “toxic masculinity.”
And now we’re just getting silly. First off, fictional characters don’t hijack franchises; they’re fictional characters. Second, since when do movie franchises belong to a certain gender? There’s no movie law that says ghostbusters have to all be dudes, just because that’s what they were in the original Ghostbusters films.
Everyone has the right to defend themselves, but “hitting someone back” in a punitive manner is an escalation of the fight, and that’s not a good thing. Also, why are you putting “woman” in scare quotes?
I can’t even. What?
@katz
The first part is bollocks* (very technically, male-on -female domestic abuse beyond what was considered acceptable at the time carried a legal penalty, but it was hardly ever enforced. The second portion is a reference to the Rough music, a tradition whereby persons who contravened social mores (including, but not limited to, husbands who were perceived as being ‘henpecked’) would be subjected to public humiliation, sometimes in the manner described.
Feminism has got an explanation for this, of course, which can be summarized as follows: The intersection of patriarchy and toxic masculinity.
*This applies to Britain, France, and parts of the Germanies, which appear to be the extent of the troll’s historical referents. There have been a huge variety of ways that various historical cultures have defined and dealt with domestic violence, which I couldn’t possibly encapsulate here, not least because I don’t know most of them.
@WWTH
There’s a whole industry in fundamentalist evangelical circles of speakers who claim to have been atheists/muslims/pagans/satanists/the wrong kind of christian, and did all kinds of awful things, and then saw the light and became evangelical fundamentalists and go on speaking tours reassuring the crowds that all those other people really are subhuman monsters.
@Three Guns
It’s cute that you think skimming Wikipedia makes you an expert. You’re really not very good at this, you know.
@Scaly Llama
I do actually. It’s a bloody echo chamber in here. And the articles are tremendously full of distortions that are easily debunked by reading the source material.
Uh huh. Ok. Well, if it’s all the same, I’m just going to continue to keep my tone calm and boring and not type out any cuss words.
You think this is a good example, because our culture gives even smallest of tiny mouse poops about what happens in theatre or opera?
You don’t think that has something to do with the historical tradition of all male theater troupes?
And you don’t think that if modern feminism actually started to care about opera that tradition would be ended so f’ing fast?
I can smell the next hashtag brewing guys. #PrimaDonnaLivesMatter
I like how most of his responses are just “NUH UH! I’m totally telling the truth! You just have to take my word for it!”
I could start a garden with all this bullshit. At least something good would come of it then.
@Paradoxical Intention
No, I think I’m pretty great at backing up what I say. I haven’t gotten to your source yet, which I’ve already read. And that professor’s spin doesn’t change history.
Again, uh, if anyone wants my sources, ask. It’s annoying because I have a lot, but, ask.
@NickNameNick
Where as you apparently think everyone should just be cogs in a collectivist machine, apparently?
Everyone is a precious snowflake. And that’s as important as it is completely irrelevant.
This is what I like about you guys. You make up stories about anyone or anything you disagree with. And I like story tellers.
I didn’t have an ego before I left feminism. I wanted to be a good person so I could look myself in the mirror. Until feminist women started to tell me I was bad for wanting to be a good person. It was personal. But they seemed believe it was about me trying to con them. I wasn’t trying to con anyone. I believed if I just fought harder, proved myself better trained, that they’d stop hating me. But they never did.
It all started to seem like my fundy days. God brings trials into your life to test faith. So I just had to be a better and better feminist then before.
And still, it didn’t fall apart until her.
Oh dish one, hesh angry.
Are we talking about my reading of Dworken? Because she seems pretty clear about all men being rapists.
I think you meant for instead of from.
You start with a premise, “There must be a rape culture.” And you make the evidence fit. That’s not explaining a phenomenon. That’s faith. And you’re the zealots.
I recognize your kind from my childhood. You like to tell stories. 🙂
Well, you seem to devote a lot of time to Dave here. What’s wrong with getting the other side.
When I was a kid, people like you would just say she’s demon possessed. I don’t even know how you work not hearing the other side when you don’t have that excuse.
Oh god, I know right. I think… like the number three… And then I realize someone else has already thought that before. And then only shame.
Well, no. I started that by saying “Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure” because Dave was right that time. But there’s more to it then that. And pointing to one of your great evil demon possessed boogy women just scares you. And that’s fun to do.
I expect a better story next time.
http://househippo.org/2009/02/16/feminism-or-lack-thereof-in-opera/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2634882/Its-not-lady-sings-Opera-world-erupts-anger-sexist-comments-critics-calling-soprano-star-stocky-chubby.html
http://www.roh.org.uk/news/how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-lucia-director-katie-mitchell-on-her-new-royal-opera-production
Stand and deliver, pup. Let’s see your references to learned journals and/or respected, peer-reviewed academics. It’s cute that you think you can meet adult standards but so far I’ve seen nothing but unsubstantiated assertions.
Protip: Warren Farrell is not a respected, peer-reviewed academic.
@Dalillama:
I was about to comment and then you said it better than I could. Hive mind again?
This sort of tale of the “moment of conversion” has spread from born-again christianity throughout the right and into antiprogressive groups generally. It’s interesting to see that it’s reached the antifeminists.
Some of them are hilarious; Peter Hitchens had what I consider to be the best one.
@ Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Wait. Really? Are you sure? Oh, I think I get it. You mean like how apples are red, or green, or yellow, like colors on the screen. Right? Or maybe I don’t… I don’t even… I don’t even… And all the face palm for you.
Wow, a hundred apples for every one Mrs B has? That’s utterly impossible! What’s going on in Mrs B’s farms that she can’t grow her own apples and has to take them from Mr A. Why just recently there was this apple everyone really liked and that earned millions of dollars in spite of it being a garbage apple. What’s stopping B from having her own apples?
Oh I know what it is. Generally, whenever Mrs B grows her own apple, applist apple critics come along and tell her it’s not representing apples properly. It’s pretty much like poor Mrs B can’t win with these apple critics no matter how hard she tires. So instead it’s better to take apples from Mr A because the applists really don’t like him at all.
In this analogy the garbage apple is Rey from Star Wars, the applists are feminists, and my irritation with having to talk about apples is very very real.
@weirwoodtreehugger
Yep. Storytellers.
I’m right here, and you could ask. But instead you make up a story that matches whatever you want to be true about me.
Wow. Such egalitarian. So equality. Very not cultist.
@bluecat
No facts or evidence refuting what I said.
No, Ghostbusters is looked at as an iconic film. I don’t know what trying to downplay that gets you. But I don’t know why you wrote any of this. I don’t know why you bothered. Just wanted to talk about my butt? Because I’m ok with that. Just letting you know. I’m ok with that.
Because tedious troll is tedious, let’s focus on funnies. Or “funndies”, as it may be.
EJ (The Other One):
I must say that I’m still quite fond of Mike Warnke’s exposure as a total fraud.
Mostly because it wasn’t some atheist skeptics who took the task of investigating those outlandish claims, but his fellow Christian members…
All right, there is so much that is wrong with what you are saying Three Guns, but it’s late and I’ve got better things to do then deal with you.
I just wanted to let you know that Rey is an incredible protagonist, who finally sold me on Star Wars after years of feeling fed up with the franchise. And I’m not the only one. I know a lot of nerdy people who were as irritated as I was with the Star Wars movies who got to leave the theaters after watching The Force Awakens with a sense of hope and excitement. Not just women, but marginalized men too.
But you know who I hear complaining? Almost exclusively white men. Well, it’s not always all about you, you know. I know our society has led you to believe that, that is has coddled your white male identity just about every step of the way, and that dealing with change and the emergence of new voices you’ve had the privilege of ignoring your whole life is hard.
But I don’t feel bad for you, because my day is finally coming and I have fought a long time for it. I never liked Luke Skywalker, but I sure do love Rey. In fact, I would argue that she is a more well-rounded, dynamic character in every way. I have not heard a single argument against her that couldn’t be used against Luke himself, so I find the complaints to be disingenuous at best.
Sorry for the derail, everyone else. I’m just tired of all the complaining from the white fanboys who don’t want anyone else to have a substantial voice in the club.
@Orion
I didn’t say it was. Just that it’s primarily male. I don’t want it to be that way. Why would I?
Incorrect. But if you want to feel trolled, go right ahead.
@Jarnsaxa
No, there’s a reason why Ghostbuters had started to fade by 1997. The culture of late night hilariously cheap exterminator ads had long since ended. The foundational joke was already done, and they were just trying to milk the franchise. It doesn’t matter that there was a woman. There are female exterminators. They’re just an extreme minority. You could still make that part of the joke work.
It’s always horrible when the reboot an iconic film. But it’s 2016, so there are no ridiculous late night ads, and you’re making the whole cast women. So they really don’t seem like exterminators anymore. So what’s the joke?
I mean other then feminism. ba-dump-dish. You knew I was going there with that.
So there’s a thing that happens to me a lot. An MRA type shows up and starts making outlandish claims. People find him amusing and dive in to the argument. It turns into a twisty-turny moving battle that covers a jillion topics and involves haggling over a dozen little factual points or low-stakes opinions.
Because nobody is always right and nobody is always wrong, it inevitably happens that at some point in a long discussion I find myself thinking, “hang on a minute, I do believe that MRA was right about the flight speed of an unladen swallow,” or “wait a minute, EJ, I think that’s a somewhat unfair take on Left Shark.” As the trivia-hoarder, arguer, and compulsive nit-picker I am, I’m generally tempted to blurt it out, but I usually end up keeping it to myself for fear that I’ll be accused of switching sides. How should I be handling this sort of thing?
@Bryce
Where did I say that?
Where did I say that!?
You’ll have to let me know the rest of how it goes…
All I said was that there are few women in the extermination trade which is fact.
I have no problem with women being exterminators. Why would I?
In fact, I want women to be exterminators. See, women have fought their way into the military. I don’t get that. It seems crazy to me. Like fighting to kill yourself. Why not just take the gun, get it done.
But they tell me, at least, that the people who want to get involved in the military want to serve society, all be it, in the most disgusting, horrific, but essential way possible. They want to deal with that shit, so you don’t have to. And it’s so essential, that we honor them for it.
We don’t honor garbage truck drivers like that. Or sewage workers. Or exterminators. The men who do these jobs provide a service that is nearly as essential to your day to day well being. But not quite as essential.
Soldier is below all of those jobs in terms of how much horror you have to deal with. We honor them for putting up with that horror. I think women see that honor, and they want it. Full stop.
I would be worlds more convinced that women should be soldiers if I saw women rush to the extermination trade or to driving garbage trucks. If you want to be a soldier lady, first show me you can hack it down sewer. Because anything you’ll have to do knee deep in sewage is a million times better than anything you’ll have to do with a rifle in your hands.
It is. But too often it’s feminism opposing reforms designed to help men and boys. Springing to mind instantly is the Florida alimony reform bill that had broad bipartisan support, but that NOW quashed because it would disadvantage women.
Anyway guys. It’s getting late. I will be back tomorrow.
Three Guns will return, you might say. 🙂
Unless Dave blocks me.
Then you must be really happy about the cast of the new Ghostbusters movie.
A couple of things here: first, women do go into extermination and waste management. When they do, they’re often treated really shittily by the men in those trades, and that’s no small reason for why there are so few, but there are a lot of other factors involved.
Second, do you feel the same way about men who join the military? If a man wants to enlist, should he first become an exterminator or trash collector?
As for women enlisting for the honor, I’m sure that’s a motivator for some women. Why is that a problem? Do you take issue when men enlist for the same reason? What makes you think motivation is different for men than for women, and what makes men’s motivations acceptable and women’s unacceptable to you? What if a woman enlists for the tuition benefits, would that be an acceptable reason for you?
@Three Guns
you miss the whole fucking point by a miserable degree.
you know there is thing called” fiction”?! ever wondered why people can enjoy movies like “narnia” or “lord of the rings”?!
because a work of fiction has imaginary rules and no matter how outlandish, if they are coherent then that work of fiction is good enough, and since these rules are all made up, they can change!
and what is and what is not a joke is a matter of taste, people can laugh at things that you don’t, get over it.
and funny being “a thing of the past” doesn’t ruin the joke but “women as ghostbusters”that is outrageous and is against everything that “fiction” stands for 😀
One way to get banned is by constantly whining that you might get banned by the ebil feminazis who want to silence all men.
You guys!!! YOU GUYS!!! I got a mention from the new troll…er, Valued Forum Contributor! I think I can die happy now! ?
Oh, wait, no – I can die happy because I saw Deadpool. My bad!
Three Guns said:
Christ on a cross, sooo so boring. I’m surprised you don’t put yourself to sleep. You probably don’t suffer insomnia.
I wish you’d said something worth responding to in relation to my comment. But, meh, you didn’t. For the benefit of others who may be wondering, however: Lady Bracknell isn’t an opera role. Divas don’t need hashtags to get what they want (trust me on that). And the fact that men are STILL playing female roles is a sign that we need more feminism in theatre and opera, not just some historical legacy. “It’s always been done this way” is almost the most pathetic excuse in the world. Women’s voices are just as effectively silenced when they aren’t occupying the few female-designated vacancies in culture, no matter in what corner of the cultural world they exist.
I’ll translate that for the rest of us:
“I, Three Guns, don’t give a shit about theatre or opera, therefore it isn’t important.”
To quote a famous philosopher, “Uh huh. Ok.”
Oh, wait, actually that was you, Three Guns! My bad.
Now do fuck off, there’s a good chap!
Why are MRAs always so hateful to men, anyway? This one seems to think that men all men are purely motivated by sex (heterosexual sex at that) and can’t possibly just want to do the right thing.
Sure, civil rights movements are driven by those who fight them, but they wouldn’t work if the people not directly involved didn’t want to do the right thing.
In my own experience, most men do, even when they get no advantage by it (sexual or otherwise), and even sometimes when it hurts them or they give up something to do it.
This whole “Mens gotta rape!” thing or even “Mens do everything to get the wimmins!” thing, that’s just gross, dude. Men are people.
@Three Guns
I don’t have time to read your entire rant, but the above leaped out at me. Your reading has been broad but hardly deep. I don’t believe that you even know who Emma Goldman was–that is, without referring to your notes.
You say that when the Seneca Falls Declaration of Sentiments came out, she joined an opposition group.
The Seneca Falls Declaration came out in 1848. Emma Goldman was born in 1869. So no.
And yes, Emma Goldman opposed votes for women, but that was because she was an anarchist. You have completely misrepresented her stance. She was definitely a feminist!
http://kids.britannica.com/women/article-216007
As for the “demonetization” of men, why would you oppose ceasing to use men as a monetary standard?
You clearly need to read Emma Goldman! She would have passionately supported the demonetization of men. She did everything with passion. Start with Living My Life–it’s almost 1,000 pages. Then get back to us.
Three Guns is being tardy with his offer to provide sources, I see.
@Orion:
I can’t speak for anyone else but I would very much like it if you called me out on stuff during such times. This is for two reasons:
A) If I’m saying something wrong, incorrect or non-okay, I would like to know about it.
B) You’re my friend and I enjoy talking to you. Three Guns is trying hard not to be my friend and has succeeded at that, which means that talking to him is about as fun as idly kicking a Coke can around. If we can find something interesting to discuss between ourselves then he can go and get fucked, which I think would suit everyone.
I like how Three Guns is pretending to have all these lofty reasons for being an MRA but what he’s really mad about is Ghostbusters. So mad that he’s decided women can’t join the military until they become exterminators.
Of course, the original Ghostbusters were failed academics, not oppressed working men. So the whole bit about it not being a realistic job for a feeemaale is amusing. I thought academia was a wussy girl and/or mangina field?