Men’s Rights Activists and other antifeminists love playing “gotcha” — demanding answers to questions designed to make feminists look hypocritical or illogical or just plain dumb.
Trouble is, despite their fondness for the “gotcha” game, most MRAs and antifeminists just aren’t very good at it. Their questions, often based on gross misunderstandings, tend to reveal less about the alleged hypocrisies of feminists than they reveal about their own profound ignorance of feminism.
Let’s take a look at a few of these failed gotcha memes, collected from a couple of antifeminst Facebook pages and elsewhere online and making use of the popular philosoraptor meme template
Well, that would be because women have been systematically oppressed for thousands of years; in order to get to equality, we need to focus on the things that have held women back. It’s the same reason that the civil rights movement fought for the rights of black people instead of white people.
If you think it’s wrong to call oneself a feminist instead of a humanist or equalist or whatever, why do you support something called the Men’s Rights movement?
Uh, because fighting for the “rights” of a group of people who already have more than their fair share of privileges is backwards and silly? Because MRAs are less interested in making life better for men than they are in making things worse for women? Because most MRAs are ridiculous?
Uh, because they don’t? Feminists do sometimes point out that the overwhelming majority of rapists are men, but they don’t call all men rapists.
Er, what? That doesn’t make any sense. Among other things, ‘rapists” and “whores” aren’t equivalent categories, given that the latter category involves consensual sex and the former involves nonconsensual sex.
Do you not understand how adjectives work? When feminists talk about “toxic masculinity” they don’t mean that masculinity itself is inherently toxic any more than someone referring to a “red car” means that all cars are red. Some kinds of masculinity can be toxic; that’s what feminists are taking about when they talk about “toxic masculinity. As the Geek Feminism wiki explains it, “toxic masculinity … refers to the socially-constructed attitudes that describe the masculine gender role as violent, unemotional, sexually aggressive, and so forth.
I don’t know why so many MRAs still don’t understand this; it’s certainly been explained to them more than enough times. And do MRAs not know how to use Google? That Geek Feminism definition I quoted above is literally the first result you get if you Google “toxic masculinity.”
And now we’re just getting silly. First off, fictional characters don’t hijack franchises; they’re fictional characters. Second, since when do movie franchises belong to a certain gender? There’s no movie law that says ghostbusters have to all be dudes, just because that’s what they were in the original Ghostbusters films.
Everyone has the right to defend themselves, but “hitting someone back” in a punitive manner is an escalation of the fight, and that’s not a good thing. Also, why are you putting “woman” in scare quotes?
I can’t even. What?
@zoon Right. Abusive behavior toward perpetrators is wrong and it doesn’t work. It’s probably the worst advice you could give to actual male victims of female perpetrators.
MRA’s think that stuff like being naggy or refusing to have sex with them counts as “abuse.”
There were definitely women drown by their voluminous skirts dragging them under in ship wrecks and floods.
Crinoline skirts or hoop skirts were responsible for the death of over a thousand people in Chile in 1863 when a fire broke out in a church and a woman’s crinoline skirt blocked the door.
1858 a young Boston woman burned to death when her wide skirt caught on fire by brushing against a candle .
Crinolines were also worn by women of every social class the maximum width was somewhere around 6 yards around.
And Amelia bloomer actually dropped her dress reform push AFTER the crinoline became popular, she considered it a better alternative to petticoats.
One reason crinolines stopped being popular besides turning you into a walking fire hazard was the fact that it took a lot of steel to make and steel was needed for other things but they re-emerge through out the first part of the 1900s with different materials being used at different points.
I am so sorry I read a lot and felt the need to share all of this in gong to go away now and annoy someone else.
Even if these were good points, they wouldn’t be good points.
Finding a way to frame your target as a hypocrite is satisfying, but it means absolutely nothing. They can be a hypocrite and you can still be wrong.
@tedthefed,
is that in regards to the post and not the conversation currently going on? Cause, uh, this isn’t a website for sober discussion of the validity of MRA talking points.
It’s tracking and mocking misogyny. Trying to find some levity in a miserable barrage of sexism. That sort of thing!
Holy shit guys, Justice Scalia is dead.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2016/2/13/justice-antonin-scalia-has-died-at-age-79.html
I know this doesn’t have much to do with MRAs directly, but this year and this election just got interesting in the Chinese curse sense.
@Scildfreja
I’m going to give tedthefed the benefit of the doubt and assume he was referring to the MRA memes. I haven’t really found anything talking about MRAs being hypocrites in this thread, and he does have a good point: Just because someone is a hypocrite, it doesn’t mean they are wrong. Slightly off topic, but it reminds me of a rule I try to live my life by: Never assume maliciousness when ignorance could suffice.
I’ll also say that if I have insulted either of you, I apologize, for it was not my intention.
Of course Cruz would say that the senate owes the country to let the next president choose Scalia’s replacement. Poor idiot thinks it might be *him*.
@Scildfreja
No no, I was responding to the memes.
But it is something that, once you start noticing it, it’s EVERYWHERE on the internet. In my own tendencies, too. I just feel so satisfied when I get to point out some hypocrisy in someone. It makes me feel so SMART.
But despite that, I’ve actually never had that strong an emotional reaction to someone being inconsistent or hypocritical. Because me perceiving a contradiction doesn’t mean the person in question does.
Oh! I understand! Sorry. I’ve been seeing things with a negative lens lately; my dad’s in the hospital and having a rather rough time of it. Makes me sort of a grump. Apologies!
@ scildfreja
Virtual hugs if you need them
@S.F.H.C.
Which is funny because, by their logic, George Miller hijacked…George Miller.
It’s like when all those comicbook fanboys got mad about that Batgirl variant cover not being sold (why give a shit? No fucking idea) and blaming all the Ess-Jay-Dubyews for it…even though the decision to not use it was by the title’s creative team.
@Falconer
And yet another thing they’ve ruined for me. Hell, I even used to like Dilbert up until finding out what a disingenuous and misogynistic asshole Scott Adams actually was as a person.
And, surprise surprise, Adams apparently loves Trump! ‘Cause of course he does.
“Woman”: A term also used by feminists.
Groundbreaking stuff.
Scild: if it’s any consolation, you’re not alone. Let’s hope our dads both do well.
I don’t know how to embed a vine, so I’m just going to leave this link right here
@NickNameNick: Sorry, if you want to blame anybody for ruining Dr. Dinosaur for you by associating it with MRAs, blame me. I made the connection.
The MRAs don’t seem to even know what Atomic Robo even is.
@Falconer: Ah, no, you didn’t ruin Atomic Robo for me at all – loved the images, actually – I meant that MRAs ruined Philosoraptor for me.
Hugs, Scildfreja.
<3 thank you for the hugs. He's doing better! Tracheostomy is out now, and he's able to breathe on his own more reliably. Recovery is happening really quickly, so it's turning out well. I am hoping for the same for your dad, Nequam. My dad's almost done needing his luck, so i'll send the rest your way.
They can’t admit that the people making the thing-they-like is made by one of those dirty SJW types. If they did that, they’d have to
a) Stop liking thing-they-like, cause it’s all grody and social-justicey now.
b) Admit that people can both be well-adjusted, successful, and popular, while caring about social justice issues. Only losers who never done amounted to nothin could care about something like social justice! Admitting that the creators they like can care about social justice issues legitimizes those issues to them, and they can’t have that!
It’s funny, really. Feminists admit, and admit readily, that there are rights that men need to get – unfair prison sentences, child custody and rights, etc. Feminists are generally ready to talk about real things from both sides, as long as the topics are real. It’s MRAs that are unwilling/unable to accept reality when it slaps them in the face. Projection much?
Honestly, what I found funniest about all of these were the ones who felt the need to “sign” their “artwork” — as if writing some poorly thought-out “gotcha” onto a stock Philosoraptor image is the kind of heavy effort that really calls out for recognition.
Former feminist turned MRA here.
Let’s see if I’m actually allowed to post.
Which thousands of years? For thousands of years, men were expected to die for the women in their lives. They were expected to either work themselves to death, or be ready to be killed for her. In return, women assumed domestic roles they quite enjoyed.
Why stop at thousands of years? Why not tens of thousands. Hunter-gatherer show we’d been doing this exact same thing since we started existing on the planet.
Meanwhile, historically, if a man beat his wife, he was tied to a pole in the public square, reserved exclusively for wife beaters, and flogged. The last man flogged for wife beating in America was in the mid 50s. But if a man was beaten by his wife, he was tied to a donkey backwards while the community threw things at him. Feminism doesn’t have an explanation for this.
Egalitarian. You’re going to be seeing that term a lot more.
Why do most Men’s Rights advocates call themselves Women’s Rights advocates. 🙂
“Meninism” is a joke to sell t-shirts. I don’t think any MRA would support a Meninist movement. And you’re not mad at us for having a Meninist movement. You’re mad at us for supporting men’s rights. Huh.
“Uh, because fighting for the “rights” of a group of people who already have more than their fair share of privileges is backwards and silly?”
Poor @Scildfreja.
There are legal rights women have that men lack. Name one that men have that women lack.
Actually, the idea that all men are rapists was very much a feminist tent pole during early second wave. And we’re still seeing that with the teach men not to rape movement.
It was clearly meant as a insult by someone who has every reason to be angry with the way people like you talk about him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. I’m less convinced that’s how the term was meant when it was introduced by the Deluth Model. But YouTube up Karen Straughan’s talk “Toxic Masculinity and Toxic Femininity”.
That Geek Feminism definition is exactly what her talk is about.
No, it just underwrites the basic joke. The Ghostbusters are exterminators. From their jump suits to their working class attitude. Late night 70’s and 80’s tv in New York was littered with B-movies and poorly made commercials for business start ups. The joke is what if one of these exterminators hunted Ghosts.
It’s bad enough setting a Ghostbusters film today. But unless women suddenly start itching to get into the extermination trade, the joke has no premise.
It’s literally just iconic movie with male cast, so now must be female because feminism. Try to imagine an iconic female role, particularly some kind of kick ass character, being replaced with a male. Who’s angry. You guys. Huh.
Full stop.
Can’t even handle your own hate directed back at you? There, there. There, there.
Scildfreja,
Not on this board. The proposition that men in America receive discriminatory penalties in criminal sentencing actually ignited an extremely ugly flame war.
Oh? I missed that! It’s a fair enough thing to dispute, really. The point I was trying to make is that we try to look at reality’s side of things. mea culpa.
@Orion
Link? Because you don’t have a great track record with the truth and that sounds like a drop of reality diluted in a bucket of WATM to me.
It’s cute when MRAs think we’ve never heard the most common MRA arguments before. It’s also cute when they pretend to be “former feminists”.