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antifeminism memes misogyny MRA

Memeday: Men’s Rights Activists playing “gotcha” make idiots of themselves

That's what you think
That’s what you think

Men’s Rights Activists and other antifeminists love playing “gotcha” — demanding answers to questions designed to make feminists look hypocritical or illogical or just plain dumb.

Trouble is, despite their fondness for the “gotcha” game, most MRAs and antifeminists just aren’t very good at it. Their questions, often based on gross misunderstandings, tend to reveal less about the alleged hypocrisies of feminists than they reveal about their own profound ignorance of feminism.

Let’s take a look at a few of these failed gotcha memes, collected from a couple of antifeminst Facebook pages and elsewhere online and making use of the popular philosoraptor meme template

phil1

Well, that would be because women have been systematically oppressed for thousands of years; in order to get to equality, we need to focus on the things that have held women back. It’s the same reason that the civil rights movement fought for the rights of black people instead of white people.

If you think it’s wrong to call oneself a feminist instead of a humanist or equalist or whatever, why do you support something called the Men’s Rights movement?

phil2really

Uh, because fighting for the “rights” of a group of people who already have more than their fair share of privileges is backwards and silly? Because MRAs are less interested in making life better for men than they are in making things worse for women? Because most MRAs are ridiculous?

phil2

Uh, because they don’t? Feminists do sometimes point out that the overwhelming majority of rapists are men, but they don’t call all men rapists.

philwhore3

Er, what? That doesn’t make any sense. Among other things, ‘rapists” and “whores” aren’t equivalent categories, given that the latter category involves consensual sex and the former involves nonconsensual sex.

phil3toxic

Do you not understand how adjectives work? When feminists talk about “toxic masculinity” they don’t mean that masculinity itself is inherently toxic any more than someone referring to a “red car” means that all cars are red. Some kinds of masculinity can be toxic; that’s what feminists are taking about when they talk about “toxic masculinity. As the Geek Feminism wiki explains it, “toxic masculinity … refers to the socially-constructed attitudes that describe the masculine gender role as violent, unemotional, sexually aggressive, and so forth.

I don’t know why so many MRAs still don’t understand this; it’s certainly been explained to them more than enough times. And do MRAs not know how to use Google? That Geek Feminism definition I quoted above is literally the first result you get if you Google “toxic masculinity.”

phil4

And now we’re just getting silly. First off, fictional characters don’t hijack franchises; they’re fictional characters. Second, since when do movie franchises belong to a certain gender? There’s no movie law that says ghostbusters have to all be dudes, just because that’s what they were in the original Ghostbusters films.

phil5

Everyone has the right to defend themselves, but “hitting someone back” in a punitive manner is an escalation of the fight, and that’s not a good thing. Also, why are you putting “woman” in scare quotes?

philcrotch

I can’t even. What?

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katz
4 years ago

Wait, you only have one heart?

I KNEW IT YOU’RE A TIMELORD

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

We either scared away Three Guns–or he’s busy reading Emma Goldman’s 1,000-page autobiography.

Three Guns
Three Guns
4 years ago

I’m back baby.

I think I’m going to skip around some tonight, so I don’t miss the good stuff before this thread falls off the front page.

Wait, wait, wait! Let me guess:

Oh, what’s the story about me going to be this time!

You were one of those Male Feminists who tried to mansplain feminism to women and tried to use it to get laid, and now you’re mad that it backfired on you, so you threw off any guise of “No really I want to help feminism!” and now you’ve gone full MRA.

Nope.

I was a former fundy kid. When I came to feminism, I was floaty, naive, and kind of a wreck. I felt like everyone had to explain everything to me, regardless of what it was. And I believed people I trusted without question. Because that’s what I did when I was in the church.

I acutally did pretty well with girls. Thank you very much. But I was a cute punk boy in a band.

In short, I just listened and believed. That’s all I did. And when feminist women started to hate me for it, I couldn’t think of a better response than listening and believing harder. And harder. And harder. And harder.

And then I found the love of my life.

Look, dude, if you were so easily turned off by Feminism,

then I wouldn’t have been a feminist for ten years.

Yes, please smack yourself harder and tell us how we’re victimizing you by making you follow the same rules as everyone else.

You are aware Dave wrote and entirely separate set of rules for MRAs, right? I read them before I posted. Ultimately, if I get to post or not, it’s at his discretion. So far, I’m impressed.

I promise to make fun of his man boobs less. But only because they don’t hold a candle to TJ’s magnificent rack.

One day the two pairs of man breats will clash. Then all shall fall into darkness and fire.

For thousands of years, other men taught men that they need to die for the women in their lives because they were the only ones capable of killing predator animals. They were told by their wives that they are expected to either work themselves to death hunting, later tilling, and following industrialization, working in exploitative factories the rich white women of Seneca Falls wanted to take control of rather than dismantle, or be ready to go to wars that other men and often women waged to be killed, and this was how women expected their men to protect them from hunger, want, disease, and death. (And let’s be honest, still do. Or did that horrifying book Fifty Shades of Grey just not happen in your world.) In return, women did all the heavy lifting at home by taking care of children, cooking, cleaning, taking care of farms, sewing, washing clothes, and being told that their husbands quite literally existed to serve them and being told they had to die to give birth because historically poor medical conditions, and I have no idea why you brought this up.

Fixed this for you.

Yup, we feeemales

It’s spelled females.

liked our domestic roles! That’s why we fought so hard

against the Suffragettes.

But, you know, never mind the fact that just because we’ve always been doing something (even if it’s not necessarily true, and we don’t know if it is or not, because all this is is just guessing from evidence, and we’ve been proven wrong before, because we’re very much fallible), doesn’t mean it’s always going to be the best idea. You know, appealing to tradition and all that.

No, actually, if I’m making any fallacy it would be appealing to nature. There weren’t traditions in place as we understand them when we hunted the mammoth.

Here’s why I’m not making an appeal to nature.

It sucks.

The fact that men have a biological context of disposablity means we’re not quite human to you. This is why feminism outright dismisses any issues pertaining to men, even to the point where it is now plummeting in support for doing so. This is why I’m faced with constant assumptions about me on here, when you people you could just ask me. But I’m not human. I’m a villian in a story you’re writing. Who cares who I am? Who cares if I die? Who cares if I actually ever lived.

That is terrible for men. And while it’s something that can’t be completely changed, it is something that can be mitigated.

Egalitarianism is a powerful first step.

And this is actually factually correct, good for you. Though, I would like to see some sources next time please.

There are almost no primary sources regarding this from the 17th century. Much of what we have comes from when English common law was written down in the 18th century. This made it a crime to hit your wife in any way harder basically than a slap, and that was punishable by whipping. In England this law was largely unenforced among the poor, but very much held over the rich.This was the way things were in England until the mid 19th century, when Magistrates grew sickened by the level of wife battery they were seeing and began to crack down.

In America there was no such wide scale lapse, though many states gradually stopped employing medieval methods for punishing crimes. Teddy Roosevelt, as part of his reelection campaign fraught for the return of the whipping post for wife beaters at a federal level. While that didn’t happen, it prompted several states to reenact the practice.

The last state to whip a man for wife beating was Delaware in 1952. (I said mid fifties before. My bad.) It was dismissed for being brutal and ultimately self defeating.

Source
Source
Source
Source
“Sensible Roosevelt–A whipping-post for wife-beaters” Library of Congress

But if a man was beaten by his wife, he was tied to a donkey backwards while the community threw things at him.

And you’re partially correct for this as well. However:

In post-Renaissance France and England,

men were beaten and shamed for beating their wives, and men were beaten and shamed if they were beaten by their wives! So tell me where the patriarchy is in this!! Because I don’t see it.

You’re still blaming women (or in this case, Feminism)

Feminism didn’t exist yet.

And I don’t blame women for doing this, because they didn’t tie the men to the post or hoist them onto the donkey. It was other men.

The need to see other men, the need to see ourselves worthless and disposable particularly if we’re failures at serving women is inborn into every man. And it’s why this website exists.

How’s that for a fucking explanation?

Clearly lacking.

Let me guess: Because you severely over-estimate the amount of people who support your “movement”

Really. Hmm, polls are showing feminism has experienced a pretty severe drop in support in just the last few years. And too often it’s women and former feminists who are who are coming to our movement. People like Cassie Jaye.

Our movement has a mandate, and is articulating something they want just as much as we do.

Don’t it sting?

that pretty much consists of a platform of “Those evil feminists need to be harassed and yelled at because they don’t think that we should be able to be awful to women!”

I think, with very limited exceptions, everyone has the right to speak just as awful to everyone else as they see fit.

No offense, but I hear all the time from you manospherian types about how all men are going to soon see the truth you proclaim and come rushing to join you, and it has yet to happen.

We pretty much have YouTube on lock down now. The main reason I’m here is because I love debating, and I can’t find a good debate there anymore… You get how huge that is right?

Name one MRA that calls themselves a “Women’s Rights Advocate”. Please fucking do.

Mike Stephenson, my favorite Honey Badger!

Ok no, that’s a lie. Actually my favorite Honey Badger is Anna Cherry. Because how can you not? When I first saw her as sexy Vivian James at that Calgary Expo, I was like oh, no, here we go. Using a sexy woman to get support. But no, she’s incredibly smart and well spoken. She’s got a neuroscience degree, and she’s basically their science girl. And her Twitter feed is… very fun and not safe for work…

Because most of them, if not all of them, actually advocate for women to have less rights, not more.

It’s not really possible for women it have more rights then they already do without pushing this into 1984 territory.

Hell, we had a post about a FeMRA, Janet Bloomfield, just three days ago where she said that she doesn’t think women should have the right to vote.

Judgey’s on right leaning side of the MRA a sphere thing, and like most MRA’s I’m a left liberation. Possibly still an Anarchist. So I don’t really read her. But she makes a pretty good case there. Dave only manages to take pop shots at. (No Dave, I’m sorry, the vote is tied to conscription. Just because post-Vietnam it’s become politically unpopular doesn’t make it any less a part of the vote.) Women are very much drains on the system. There are currently no government programs aimed exclusively at men, but hundreds aimed exclusively at women. This includes 11 programs from the VA for women, including one for female homeless vets.

You get into the immigration thing, and it starts to get all right-wingy. But all she did there agree with the conclusion of that Telegraph article, which Dave doesn’t challenge. So his refutation of her case is pretty weak.

Look, fighting against women’s suffrage is stupid and it’s never going to happen. But if she wants to join the storied ranks of female anti-Suffragests, I’m not going to stop her. Why should I?

Abandoning your children (that can be proven to be yours) and raping women aren’t “rights” that men should have.

Is this about that Roosh V thought experiment again? Because even Dave here has admitted that’s not what Roosh meant.

As for abandoning children… Why is it ok that this is a right women have that men lack. Having a child is a unilateral series of decisions by the mother. The father has no say in the decision.

What makes this even a feminist issue? Shouldn’t this be a personal matter between the couple that either does or doesn’t not wish to become parents? Help me out on this.

Men shouldn’t have the “right” to hit women.

No. And women shouldn’t have the right to hit men. And then stab men. And then scratch men. And then when he tries to leave and he knocks into herf, women shouldn’t have the insanity of the Duluth Model come in and place him under arrest and declare him to be a “toxic male.

Men shouldn’t have the “right” to force women “back in the kitchen where they belong”.

Well, only if she’s barefoot. Oh, or in a cute little apron.

No one, very very few, MRAs are traditionalists. The failure of the traditional role is why we’re here. The only way we can hope to fix it is with a new stronger system that both respects the fact that we are women and we are men with different wants needs and desires, and that appeals to both equally. That’s what egalitarianism is trying to find.

Men shouldn’t have the right to have sex with women without their consent.

You did this one already.

These are all things I’ve seen MRAs claim that are “rights” that they’re fighting for.

No you haven’t.

And I have seen them claim to care about male victims of domestic violence, rape, and abuse, but only as a cudgel to try to silence feminists.

Like when you guys bullied that Earl Silverman to death.

Well, I know WWTH has the bodily autonomy thing covered,

Define covered.

Men are more likely to have their health concerns taken seriously.

Men are frequently given more pay than women (especially if they’re white).

And I know you’re going to jump and go “I said legal rights!”

Nope. I was going to point out how the only study which actually relates to how seriously women’s health concerns are takes is a decade and a half old. Information that old doesn’t show us anything.

And then I was going to do this:

Take it away, shitlord…

but allow me to point this out:

No. You’re making up your own definitions for words, and I’d rather stick to the dictionary as much as is possible.

Feminist: “We need to teach men what consent actually is so they understand what it means

controdicts

because men are not mindless beasts, and are perfectly capable of understanding what “no” means.

They already understand what the word ‘rape’ means and that it’s bad, but our definition of ‘consent’ is what the problem is.”

Oh. Ok. I get it. Men must be constantly updated on new feminist definitions of the word “consent.”

Sort of a Ministry of Love thing.

Shouldn’t we instead leave it up to the woman and the man involved. And feminism just stays out of the bedroom?

Said no MRA ever: “Men are just like that! It’s like holding a steak in front of a hungry lion!

Fixed that for you.

Men are just going to rape women! Women should protect themselves better!”

And women are going to rape men. And men are going to rape men. And women are going to rape women. And everyone needs to take basic step to protect themselves.

It’s call being an adult.

Yeah, we totally think all men are rapists, right?

And you also seem like a truly reasonable human being.

[/sarcasm]

No, we’re not going to waste a half hour of our lives listening to someone who loves the sound of their own voice because someone refuses to listen when we try to explain shit.

Nice try though.

Yeah, I really don’t understand how you guys justify not hearing the other side without declaring that the lord of lies works through her false tongue.

As a former fundamentalist, and a former SJW I am always concerned with the idea that I might be wrong.

WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT I AM HERE.

Oh, but I must be a troll right.

“Yes, please mansplain Ghostbusters to us, even though many of us watched and loved the original movies and the cartoons and comics!”

– Said no one on this blog ever.

Translation, do not offer you opinion if it at all relates to women, because you are a man. I’m feeling the egalitarianism of feminism right now.

Bill Murray was the one who suggested the all-female cast, and he’s not a feminist that I know of.

Read my post about apples. This is just the only way Hollywood can find of adding new female parts without you lot jumping down their throat.

But it’s still all our fault, u guis. Because femmucommunazi conspiracy.

I KNEW IT

It’s not like white, cishet men get all the roles in Hollywood anyways,

You make a romance with a weak female character, who’s she’s swooning over. A ton of men. You make a strong kick ass female character, who’s she ordering around. A ton of men.

Also, I just love it when third wavers throw out second wave media critique. What actual effect does the decisions Hollywood make matter when people primary experience with media is through YouTube?

and it’s not like women actors get paid far less than their male counterparts,

Yeah, I don’t care.

and it’s not like people don’t already try to dude-wash roles in theatre

Apparently this board is full of avid theatre fans.

The guy is getting three scoops of ice cream, and is mad when a woman gets one.

Someone spent a lot of time expressing their hatred of men.

Hey do you know about something called the gender spending gap? While the gender wage gap has women earning 77 cents for every dollar a man makes, the spending gap shows that women are responsible for 75% of the dollars spent in the US. At a time when no one is saving any money at all. And that means that the average man spends about a third of his paycheck on women. Meanwhile, men are paying about 75% of the taxes into the system, and every government program that benefits one gender benefits women. Source Forbes.

Hey.

Feminazi. That’s a stupid term, who uses it.

You stole my ice-cream.

Give it back.

😉

Oh my god there’s more of this!?

See, this is my question: Why is it when MRAs or other manospherians think of “equality” they think “Does this mean I can hit women/be violent to women now?”

We don’t.

I’ll answer that for you because no one should be hitting anyone. You learned this when you were a child.

When I was a child and my sister hit me, and I pushed her away, she went in the corner.

That’s a lie. My mom made us hug until we stopped hating each other.

I think they were saying that nothing you said made any sense. It’s not a “gotcha”, you’re just mostly incoherent.

Oh, you’ve been rambling on so long my head hearts.

Keep pretending though. Whatever helps you sleep at night, pumpkin.

But at least I’m your pumpkin. 🙂

LORD THIS TOOK TOO LONG.

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

This story about feminists hating a man for “listening” is one of the least believable conversion stories I’ve ever heard.

Three Guns
Three Guns
4 years ago

Sorry, that last post was @Paradoxical Intention

@Kat

Ok, first of all, I laughed hard at this.

As for the “demonetization” of men, why would you oppose ceasing to use men as a monetary standard?

Second. I am very very dyslexic. And the four minute editing window is brutal. It shows up in spellings. It shows up in things like dropping of pluralizations I don’t remember doing. My brain is a broken clockwork mess, ok? It’s an embarrassment. So please, if you read strange things from me, and you can kind of get what I meant, understand that’s what I meant. I proof read like a mother, and if I’d had more time I could have caught that.

I don’t have time to read your entire rant, but the above leaped out at me. Your reading has been broad but hardly deep.

There’s a joke in there somewhere… 🙂

I don’t believe that you even know who Emma Goldman was–that is, without referring to your notes.

Emma Goldman is my favorite classical Anarchist crush. She’s… uh… sexy… This is going to sound real, real weird, but one of my exs used to kind of look like her and used to role play as her… in the bedroom…

Emma Goldman would bristle at the being called a feminist. She’d probably hit you. Yes, she she was born after Seneca falls. That’s not important at all, but thank you. At the time she was operating, the Suffragettes were the only feminist game in town. She did not support women taking power from men any more than she supported men taking power from men.

It’s worth asking if she would have been another form of feminist if those forms existed at the time. And I don’t think she would. She definitely wouldn’t have been a sex negative second waver. She loved sex, and spent much of her time living in a brothel. I don’t think she would have been a third waver either. I don’t see her Anarchism as matching up with things like Twitter harassment initiatives.

I think she was a Free Love Women’s Libber, if she was anything.

But I don’t think that describes her and what she went through very well. She was her own. She wasn’t one of you. She wasn’t one of me. She wasn’t one of anything. She was her own. As someone cutting my own path, I have to respect that.

And I have no idea why I have the hots for her. But it was always really good… :j

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

I also love how he views spamming/flooding internet comment sections as some sort of meaningful victory. Just like Paulie and Juicebro have said before. The only “victory” of the MRM is that they have proven people can’t have nice things unless they want them ruined by trolls.

Paradoxical Intention
4 years ago

NickNameNick | February 16, 2016 at 12:03 am
It is quite amazing how many people are willing to spend so much of their time, on their computer, listening to people rant at them over some pet peeve of theirs’. It made sense that people would listen to talk radio when driving from their job and back – but it’s difficult to imagine why anyone would sit at their computer for an hour or more to do the same. Especially when everything stated is something they already heard of and agree with, which makes it even more pointless.

As someone who kind of does that: I tend to also work on other things while listening to a rant video, and sometimes people make good points in ways that I hadn’t thought of, or couldn’t think of due to stuff like privilege.

I do the same thing with podcasts as well. It makes great material to do graphic design work to because I’m not only hearing news or listening to some of my favorite people talk about things I like (The Podquisition hosted by Jim Sterling and two of his friends is pretty good) but I’m also getting work done.

But you’re right: Karen’s only stroking the egos of the MRAs, she’s not there to challenge the system, if only because that’ll get her ousted in a heartbeat because feeemale.
_____________________________________________

Now, on to Trolly-Os: Most of that Teal Deer is self-wanking, repetative bullshit, so I’m going to skip most of it, as you’re clearly not willing to listen to anything but the sound of your own keyboard on some issues, so I’d rather not waste my energy on it.

However, there are a few bits that I’d like to point out and address, and I’m putting these in the order I find them as I scroll up and down:

This is why feminism outright dismisses any issues pertaining to men, even to the point where it is now plummeting in support for doing so. This is why I’m faced with constant assumptions about me on here, when you people you could just ask me. But I’m not human. I’m a villian in a story you’re writing. Who cares who I am? Who cares if I die? Who cares if I actually ever lived.

Such martyr. Much Sacrifice. Such wow.

Except there are feminists who also work towards helping men, and there are quite a few men who are also feminists who also focus on men’s issues. Just because feminism isn’t for men specifically (because it’s focus is on women, who have traditionally had the short end of the stick), doesn’t mean feminists “don’t care” and “don’t want to help men”.

Women (and feminists in general who identify as all kinds of genders) are complex human beings, perfectly capable of caring about more than one thing at a time. Just because we’re not talking about men right now doesn’t mean I hate them and don’t care about anything bad that happens to them.

You said so yourself you were one (though I’m still not buying your story, because, let’s face it, there’s no way to prove it’s true), and for all we know, you could be lying. It’s easier to assume you’re full of shit, because all you’ve given us is shit, and we’re not going to poke through it to find the good bits, because they’re still covered in shit.

These are all things I’ve seen MRAs claim that are “rights” that they’re fighting for.

No you haven’t.

Oh? Really? I wasn’t aware you knew my experiences better than I do!

Clearly I just need to shut up and listen to you because you apparently can remember my own life and experiences and things I’ve seen and read better than me and my silly little lady brain! [/sarcasm]

You can fuck off with that shit. I know what I’ve read. I know what I’ve experienced. Don’t fucking pretend like I’m just “misunderstanding” when MRAs blatantly say shit.

You’re on an entire fucking blog about MRAs spouting this exact nonsense. Do some reading.

Oh, and don’t fucking bother shifting the goalposts either. No one cares if you’re not exactly the same as every other MRA, you’re still supporting them and identifying as one.

As a former fundamentalist, and a former SJW I am always concerned with the idea that I might be wrong.

WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT I AM HERE.

And yet, you refuse to listen to anything anyone has to say, and instead resort to being a ‘splainy, troll-faced, condescending, horseradish sandwich.

Yeah, I’m totally convinced that you’re concerned with the idea you might be wrong, and that’s why you’re here. [/sarcasm]

And women are going to rape men. And men are going to rape men. And women are going to rape women. And everyone needs to take basic step to protect themselves.

It’s call being an adult.

So, instead of maybe making the world a less shitty place for everyone to live in by actually explaining to people what consent actually is and how rape isn’t just “stranger danger” back alley stuff, you’d rather just say that “Well, shit happens!” and not do anything about it?

Such egalitarian. Much human rights. Such wow. You must care so much about rape victims. [/sarcasm]

Here’s a fun story: I was sexually abused when I was twelve all the way until I was fourteen by my stepfather, and this includes several instances of rape over the course of those two years. (This is a story I’ve relayed a few times to people here as well, in a few different contexts.)

Tell me: How was I supposed to “protect” myself from that? What would be the “adult” thing little twelve year old me could have done to protect myself from someone who was supposed to be my parent, and who I was terrified of because he had beaten me before over smaller shit?

Oh, wait. You don’t care about rape victims and would rather just enable rapists by blaming victims for not “protecting” themselves enough because it’s the “adult” thing to do. My bad.

Translation, do not offer you opinion if it at all relates to women, because you are a man. I’m feeling the egalitarianism of feminism right now.

Actual translation: You coming in here and trying to tell us what Ghostbusters was about like we’ve never seen it and/or don’t understand it is extremely demeaning and condescending because some of us are actually Ghostbusters fans, despite being women.

Also, I just love it when third wavers throw out second wave media critique. What actual effect does the decisions Hollywood make matter when people primary experience with media is through YouTube?

Because movies are still a billion dollar industry and media still reflects the values of that time period. So, if we have a bunch of movies where women are treated as shitty props, that must mean that we value women as shitty props.

Just because you don’t watch movies doesn’t mean the rest of the world doesn’t either. Hell, some people watch movies on YouTube. Shocking, I know. I’m sorry to have to be the one to tell you the world doesn’t revolve around your life experiences.

Except I’m really not.

Feminist: “We need to teach men what consent actually is so they understand what it means

controdicts

because men are not mindless beasts, and are perfectly capable of understanding what “no” means.

“Men aren’t stupid and are perfectly capable of understanding what consent means, but we’ve been working with a faulty definition of consent, and maybe we need to update it because it’s clearly not working.”

I see no contradiction.

Yup, we feeemales

It’s spelled females.

http://babalublog.com/wpr/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Foghorn-Leghorn-Thats-a-joke-son-You-missed-it-Flew-right-by-ya.jpg

It’s a joke we have around here. We elongate the “e” in “females” because it sounds more sinister that way, considering many manospherians make it sound like a filthy word.

You could have asked instead of assuming that I’m unaware of what spell check is. But I’m just a silly feeemale with a silly little lady brain, apparently!

See, this is my question: Why is it when MRAs or other manospherians think of “equality” they think “Does this mean I can hit women/be violent to women now?”

We don’t.

Bash a Violent Bitch Month.

Oh, and I’ve had several conversations with men (some of whom were MRAs) who asked me when they can hit women if I’m so for “equality”.

But apparently, I don’t know what I’m talking about because Guns here seems to be the Spokesman of the MRAs, and I’m just totally misunderstanding everything because I’m apparently stupid and have no reading comprehension or verbal comprehension, so I need him to explain it to me! [/sarcasm]

Yeah, I really don’t understand how you guys justify not hearing the other side without declaring that the lord of lies works through her false tongue.

Because we have “heard the other side”.

Because we’ve seen enough of her writings, videos, and blog posts on AVfM to know what she’s all about, and to speculate what she might say about a given subject.

Because we figure we’re aware of her stance on things considering things she’s wrote about in the past.

Because sometimes “hearing the other side” consists of someone telling you you deserve to be treated as less than human because of your gender and what an awful person you are and how you’re just the devil incarnate because you’re not willing to be a housewife and let men hit you.
_____________________________________________

Okay, I’m done. This one’s getting a little too boring for my tastes. Most of his shit was just “I’ll just repeat myself until they understand that I’m right!”

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

Also also, now he can’t stop talking about hos boner. Classic. The MRM – spamming internet comment sections with boner talk since, what, 2006?

Three Guns
Three Guns
4 years ago

@Imaginary Petal

You’re never going to believe me, no matter what I say, because who I am doesn’t match up with your story.

It wasn’t that kind of listening. It was listening and believing. It was letting women take more and more charge, even if it didn’t make sense to me.

Me: Why is it you want to cook and clean so much. I want to do it so you can get out of those gender roles.

Girlfriend at the time: That sexist of you even to say.

Me: Oh… Sorry… Um… Sorry… Sorry… Ten minutes of sorry.

It was very easy for me to be in that role because I’d been in that role ever since I was born.

Listen, like I said in the long post is long post above, I came here from YouTube when the debate dried up there. Go ask Jenny McDermott who I debated with most, if she thinks I’m a former feminist. We shared a lot about each other’s lives, and she’s the first sub on my channel.

Who I am doesn’t match up with your story, and your story is way more important than me.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

You know how wild animals claim territory by pissing on everything?

(Maybe that’s why so many MRAs believe in evopsych.)

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

Why is it you want to cook and clean so much. I want to do it so you can get out of those gender roles.

Hahaha. Yeah, now it’s starting to sound more believable. Jesus fucking christ, dude.

Three Guns
Three Guns
4 years ago

@Three Guns

My penis is mutilated. It happened when I was a small baby. I had no choice in the matter, and there was no medically necessary reason for it to be done. Complaining about it is seen as strange. A mutilated penis is seen as normal.

So you must be very, very sympathetic to the 200 million women alive today (some in the USA) who have (unwillingly and not as a baby!) undergone genital mutilation. Right?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/06/health/200-million-with-fgm/

Why is this even a question you feel like you need to ask?

Because Paul Elam wrote an article mocking something horrific in Jezebel? Jesus fucking christ! You people are convinced you’re the only ones who have souls. You’re wrong!

@weirwoodtreehugger

When I talked about abortion rights, I just knew before I even hit post that he’d compare getting a bit of skin snipped off to being forced to give birth. I knew there’d be a false comparison to parents making what they thought was a correct medical decision for their baby boys to adult women being prevented from making medical decisions for themselves. If the government was trying to force adult men to get circumcised he might have a point.

Oh I am so sorry that baby mutilation doesn’t rise to a level of concern for oh so egalitarian feminism.

Genuinely. Because if you guys gave a crap the practice would already be ended.

Yes! I oppose genital mutilation in all it’s forms! There is no difference between a boy or a girl or an adult woman being mutilated!

The only people who see a difference here are you people.

utterly horrifying

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

#NotAllBabyMutilation

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

Do we need to remind the fanboy that Karen Straughan is in favor of men beating women?

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

“If you want a vision of the manosphere, imagine an anus sharting on a feminist blog’s comment section – forever.” – George Orwell, probably.

EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

Thank you, David.

I’d just like to point out as a coda that one of Three Guns’s sources had this as its site header:

The Unknown History of MISANDRY
FACTS which contradict what is taught in the universities and which even run counter to the assumptions made by critics of misandry.

The capitalisation wasn’t me; it was added, Timecube-like, by the site’s proprietor.

Strangely there wasn’t a bibliography on any of them. Such scholar. How source. Wow.

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

@Three Guns

Because Paul Elam wrote an article mocking something horrific in Jezebel? Jesus fucking christ! You people are convinced you’re the only ones who have souls. You’re wrong!

Wut.

You think I read Paul Elam.

Yes! I oppose genital mutilation in all it’s forms! There is no difference between a boy or a girl or an adult woman being mutilated!

The only people who see a difference here are you people.

Big difference.

EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

Off-topic:

M, was this you? Fess up.

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/14D6E/production/_88285358_13ec2507-138a-42eb-80b1-f27b57622710.png

Triceratops left in middle of high street

A dinosaur was left in the middle of a high street courtesy of some “drunken pranksters”, it is believed.

A 25ft (7.6m) model triceratops had to be removed from High Street in Godshill on the Isle of Wight after it was dragged from the Jurassic Garden.

Owner Martin Simpson said he was shocked to see the model appearing on social media over the weekend.

The dinosaur is part of Mr Simpson’s shop garden, where he sells prehistoric gems and fossils.

He said: “It takes about five blokes to move the dinosaur a couple of inches, so it was definitely a concerted effort and drink was probably involved.”

He added he would now be securing the dinosaur to make sure the incident did not happen again.

NickNameNick
NickNameNick
4 years ago

@P.I.

As someone who kind of does that: I tend to also work on other things while listening to a rant video, and sometimes people make good points in ways that I hadn’t thought of, or couldn’t think of due to stuff like privilege.

I do the same thing with podcasts as well. It makes great material to do graphic design work to because I’m not only hearing news or listening to some of my favorite people talk about things I like (The Podquisition hosted by Jim Sterling and two of his friends is pretty good) but I’m also getting work done.

But you’re right: Karen’s only stroking the egos of the MRAs, she’s not there to challenge the system, if only because that’ll get her ousted in a heartbeat because feeemale.

Fair enough on all counts. I probably should’ve clarified the people I’m talking about don’t seem to be doing anything constructive at all when it comes to listening to these videos.

Like, I couldn’t imagine them writing a book or cooking a nice meal while listening to this stuff – they seem to live and breathe the internet thus just sitting and listening to something like Straughan’s videos, then talking about them in some way, is all they do.

A lot of people on Facebook I’ve argued with, for example, never seem to leave their homes and obsess over blogs at Tumblr that no one ever forced them to read. Yet they act as if it is akin to keeping up with world events by reading various (and reliable) news sources.

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
4 years ago

Holy teal deer, Batman!

And I thought he was a Gish galloper before.

I did think it was especially cute that he used the fact that YouTube comments are so terrible decent people of all genders avoid them out of disgust as evidence that they’re winning. Winning what? The contempt of everyone?

I also love how his very own conversion story contradicts itself. He claims all he ever did was listen to feminists and they hate him anyway. Then he tells a story about how he hectered his girlfriend for liking to cook and clean. Yeah, dude. That’s not really listening and believing.

My take on him is that he was always a reactionary and feminism was just some sort of brief temporary rebellion before he reverted to form. His confusion about how feminism doesn’t mean women can never cook and clean shows a real tendency toward black and white thinking. Changing gender roles doesn’t mean everyone should just be themselves. They mean the old gender roles have to be just as rigid, only reversed which means, to him that being pro feminist means men will oppressed. That’s why despite not loving traditional gender roles, feminism makes him angry.

That’s why he sees no irony in ignoring the fact that many women have died in factories trying to provide for their families. Many women have died in childbirth. But we’re so privileged and see men as subhuman because they’ve fought in wars largely started by other men.

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

@wwth

Exactly.

“All I did was listen and agree, and women started to hate me!”

And his example is him being extremely condescending to his girlfriend, suggesting that he – the superior, gender role free male – needed to explain her behavior to her. Fucking hell.

Dude, you did feminism wrong.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

Me: Why is it you want to cook and clean so much. I want to do it so you can get out of those gender roles.

Girlfriend at the time: That sexist of you even to say.

As someone who has had this conversation almost exactly with my ex, let me explain to you why she got pissed. She’s cooking and cleaning for her own reasons, not because of gender roles. Either she enjoys it or it needs to be done and she’s an adult who recognizes that it’s a bad thing to procrastinate on cleaning and that it’s cheaper to cook at home than to eat out all the time.

Instead of just offering to help, you instead offered to free her of her assigned gender roles. Don’t you see how that might be a little condescending?

Use this as a rule of thumb: if you wouldn’t behave that way towards a man, think long and hard about why you’re behaving that way towards a woman.

guy
guy
4 years ago

Yes. Strong gender roles are bad, but people are under no obligation whatsoever to break them if they don’t want to. Imagine a woman asking her husband why he works so much, she wants to do it so he can get out of those gender roles.

Newt
Newt
4 years ago

Boo, I missed a verbose one. They provide so much to work with.

For example, making multiple corrections of other commenters’ (apparent) mistakes (ebil, feeemales, from/for) but when someone makes a joke about the surreal “demonetization/demonization” mixup, he mentions that he’s dyslexic so that’s unfair.

Or his demand that any studies cited must be <10 years old, while defending his understanding of hunter-gatherers because he "still ha[s] the textbooks".

Or his repeated references to a well-known Dworkin misquote, despite it being refuted earlier in this very comment section. (Side-note: what is a factual piece from a feminist blog doing republished on UFOs-and-racism conspiracy site BeforeIt'sNews?)

brooked
brooked
4 years ago

Good grief, that response is fucking endless and often borderline incomprehensible.

We pretty much have YouTube on lock down now. The main reason I’m here is because I love debating, and I can’t find a good debate there anymore… You get how huge that is right?

You’re remarkably bad at debating, so it’s not surprising you spent a lot of free time hectoring people in the irredeemable cesspool that is YouTube.

Emma Goldman is my favorite classical Anarchist crush.

She was awesome but not a time traveler so Kat’s critique of your ahistorical argle-bargle stands.

Really. Hmm, polls are showing feminism has experienced a pretty severe drop in support in just the last few years. And too often it’s women and former feminists who are who are coming to our movement. People like Cassie Jaye.

Not really. MRAs didn’t invent anti-feminism and isn’t a functional movement, but feel free to keep fantasizing about feminism’s imminent demise and babbling at people on Youtube.

brooked
brooked
4 years ago

Also, I just love it when third wavers throw out second wave media critique. What actual effect does the decisions Hollywood make matter when people primary experience with media is through YouTube?

First, people don’t primarily experience media through YouTube. Second, major studios own companies like Maker Studios that provide Youtube content.

If you don’t go to movies and only watch Youtube, why do you care about Ghostbusters and other Hollywood remakes at all?

Orion
Orion
4 years ago

SFHC,

Sorry for the delayed response to your request. For a while I couldn’t remember which thread it was on, and once Trigun showed up this thread moved so fast that I missed it when I came looking for it. Once I did find it I wondered whether any good could come of answering or if I should just slink off and let it lie. That would obviously have reinforced your opinion of my truthfulness but I’m not sure I can do anything about that anyway.

I’m a little saddened because I respect you. I think you’re smart, funny, principled, insightful, creative, and often kind. I had thought you respected me. We’ve had conflicts in the past; I’ve apologized for some and assumed we tacitly agreed to disagree on others. I knew we don’t hold the same values. I didn’t know you think I’m deceitful.

You actually posted in the thread I was thinking of; you and I were more or less at each other’s throats. It was a rolling multi-person multi-issue trainwreck, so only with subjective judgment is it possible to say what it was “about.” If you don’t recognize it from my description, you probably don’t agree with my interpretation, so linking it will only confirm your belief that I am untruthful.

I other people want to see it, I post the link. Otherwise, I don’t see any point in you and I re-litigating a flame thread in which we were on different sides.

dlouwe
dlouwe
4 years ago

I also love how his very own conversion story contradicts itself. He claims all he ever did was listen to feminists and they hate him anyway. Then he tells a story about how he hectered his girlfriend for liking to cook and clean. Yeah, dude. That’s not really listening and believing.

Yeah, that line smelled super disingenuous from the start. Obviously he meant he listened and believed and then acted, but he’s just a poor widdle ex-fundie that only knows how to listen and believe (and act) and be sorry and it’s not his fault that feminists don’t want him to listen and believe (and act on) the things that they say so it’s really not even worth mentioning because how could he be held responsible for listening and believing (and acting on) things that other people said?

Lagoon
Lagoon
4 years ago

For thousands of years, other men taught men that they need to die for the women in their lives because they were the only ones capable of killing predator animals. They were told by their wives that they are expected to either work themselves to death hunting, later tilling, and following industrialization, working in exploitative factories the rich white women of Seneca Falls wanted to take control of rather than dismantle, or be ready to go to wars that other men and often women waged to be killed, and this was how women expected their men to protect them from hunger, want, disease, and death. (And let’s be honest, still do. Or did that horrifying book Fifty Shades of Grey just not happen in your world.) In return, women did all the heavy lifting at home by taking care of children, cooking, cleaning, taking care of farms, sewing, washing clothes, and being told that their husbands quite literally existed to serve them and being told they had to die to give birth because historically poor medical conditions, and I have no idea why you brought this up.

Sorry, sorry, but WHERE exactly does it say anywhere that WOMEN CAUSED THESE THINGS? Because that’s news to me! If you were saying, oh I don’t know, that “because of the societal norms and gender roles of the day, women and men expected certain things of each other and those things were often unfair and there are still many gender roles that need to be crushed” I’d be more with you on this. But you’re insisting somehow women are the cause! As though somehow through being second class citizens we somehow controlled men. As though feminists blow their load at the thought of men dying in the workplace.

Did it ever occur to you in your years of servitude to the feminist overlords that feminism isn’t only about legal rights, but about how society functions as a whole? You can cry all you want about how it’s illegal to beat your wife, but it’s still deeply deeply ingrained in our culture that no doesn’t always mean no, that women’s bodies in public are now available to the public. It’s still a fact that trans woman and women of color are still discriminated against and are at incredible risk. Shit doesn’t just disappear from a culture cuz women got the right to vote, aight? And worrying about how the poor menz are fairing not being able to touch my butt on the metro nowadays isn’t going to fix a damn thing.

If you want things to be better for guys, too, cuz there are many ways in which our current society hurts them, then maybe you should quit pretending like somehow feminism is ruining the world and stop associating yourself with people who literally argue that women shouldn’t be able to vote.

Also, stop bringing up fifty shades of vomit like anyone here actually idolizes that book. It isn’t the secret feminist playbook and no one here is to blame for it so chill already.
Excuse the long post, but that crap made my head spin.

Scaly Llama
Scaly Llama
4 years ago

David – He’s really gone? Forever?! I think I love you now.

weirwoodtreehugger
4 years ago

1400 words? To Rigmarole Town for the troll!

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

And here I went and brushed up on my knowledge of Emma Goldman. And female genital mutilation, which Three Guns seemed to think was the equivalent of male circumcision. No, no, no to the power of infinity.

Thanks, David! The cat pic makes me laugh every time I see it–unlike the Trump pic.

Tizio.
Tizio.
4 years ago

Awwww, and here I thought I could’ve asked Three Guns ALL THE SOURCES. I even made a 28-points-long list!

As retaliation against David banning Three Guns, I’m gonna sealion all over this thread.
http://assets.worldwildlife.org/photos/561/images/story_full_width/sea-lion-threat-07162012-HI_257952.jpg.jpg

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