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homophobia irony alert racism trump

Dude is mad [homophobic slur] and [ethnic slur] think his Trump shirt promotes hate

He mad
He mad, too

Oh, Trump fans, never change!

Ted • 20 hours ago Bernietard in Lit told me that I was promoting "hate" by wearing a Trump shirt. This dude is your quintessential SWPL faggot. Even before Trump he hated me. All because I called dramakids fags like a year ago. Aside from that and a few glares from spics, I got nods and thumbs ups from peers . My friends didn't make comment on it. They already know me as that trump supporter lol Being a vocal Trump fan hasn't damaged my life...yet. 2 • Reply•Share › Avatar Det. Snide Ted • 20 hours ago Fuck the spics. Keep up the good work.

 

 

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Tessa
Tessa
4 years ago

Pull them in with combat, then the rest.

Ciao, been a blast.

Stay safe, we really do like you all (although you might not like us)

You know… I’m beginning to doubt you’re actually a radical feminist.

OK, in seriousness, that was really tedious to read. I’m pretty sure Fifth quoted and responded to herself at some point. I think that’s what this is:

And you wonder why Trump is where he is, and Hilary is your best bet.

Er.

Hilary is your best bet because she has the backing of major power players in DC.

She has already won. Trump has 0% chance of winning.

Again, this highlights the biases on this board.

If you really imagine I’m an Alt-Right thinker, I’ve some depressing news: I really am a radical left feminist.

You peeps: not so much.

That first quote was Fifth’s own statement earlier… So strange.

Edit note: Added quote around Fifth’s quote of herself… She used italics because it was harder to just click to spaces to the right to quote instead of italicize, and quotes automatically also italicize, making the italics tag pointless in quotes.

Monzach
Monzach
4 years ago

I love the fact that there has been less than half a page’s worth of discussion about the OP and roughly six and a half pages of troll baiting. 😀 I think I made the correct decision when I mentally placed the newest troll on “ignore” round about the second page of the thread.

Tessa
Tessa
4 years ago

On topic, I am curious what kind of trump shirt he was wearing. “Trump shirt” is vague. And , considering his response, I doubt his shirt was his only method of “promoting ‘hate'” around campus.

I found the context of his use of the word “peers” really interesting, too.

Cerberus
Cerberus
4 years ago

Just went through the whole thread. Wow. Though our newest troll to be gone forever by morning is a great demonstration of the “my ego is directly tied to my ability to feel smarter than everyone else and be right even when I’m not” type.

Cause all of this type do the exact same form of arguing. They start by saying something wrong or stupid and get called out and then what follows is this ever spiraling catastrophe of constantly switching topics and shifting goal posts and making constant passive-aggressive whines about how stupid everyone is and how smart they are and can’t everyone tell what their saying, because what they can’t do is admit fault.

Cause in their heads, admitting that they were wrong about something especially to a group of people they don’t respect or view as inherently dumber than them is simply not to be done. So to avoid that, they spin more absurdities, which also get called out, so they need to dig the hole even deeper and don’t just leave or apologize or even stick to the original topic of conversation, because it’s all about trying to win something so they can pretend the argument was about that the whole time so their fragile self-image of themselves as “smart” can be preserved.

I notice it a lot among atheist douchebag types (atheists who are douchebags, I’m not calling all atheists douchebags), because their self-image is based on “being smart” and “seeing through lies” and that is core to their vision of themselves, they react in very similar ways to the creationists they despise when their core image feels threatened, usually because they’re being an idiot or falling prey to conspiracy theories or social bigotry.

So you end up with someone who refuses to admit obvious fault or mistake even when the stakes are as low as a comedy message board.

Cerberus
Cerberus
4 years ago

Also, the [movement of unbelievable assholes who like to harass women in games]er tipped their hand in another major way. That whole argument that presumed the ZQ case was civil or behaved like a civil lawsuit is currently the major [i refuse to even use the acronyms because of how these fuckers google even the slightest mention]er talking points at the moment.

So yeah, a good 50% of the talking points the **er used are all common ** talking points, but we’re expected to believe they aren’t a **er. Puh-leeze.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

Cerberus, I think your analysis is spot-on.

Cerberus
Cerberus
4 years ago

Also? Relevant to the digression rather than the troll, in ZQ’s current twitter feed, she’s got a tweet about how if her dropping this case is “bad for victims” because it discourages people from pursuing direct legal methods of resolving things then that’s actually a damning indictment of the system.

And that’s absolutely right. ZQ has one of the more cut-and-dried examples of relentless harassment out there, directly tied and led by her abuser and yet she was constantly let down by said system, going through painful misery for a long-drawn out process wherein she was required to remain silent about the reality and history of his DV and everything that led to this while he was free to make up any shit he wanted because she was required to perform the “perfect victim” even with a case as open and shut as hers less it be dismissed.

Our justice system is broken with regards to victims, and especially women and/or trans and/or of color victims and places unrealistic burdens on them that allow their abuser to continue to do damage while they hope to one day at least temporarily stop one of their abusers.

And the harassers know this. That’s why so many harassment groups lead with arguments to “go to the cops if you’re suffering harassment”, because they know that is a dehumanizing and painful process of futility that will also have the benefit of hamstringing their targets ability to pushback against them and regain their power.

They know the system is broken and so gleefully taunt to trust the system to fix things else it “proves” the accusations false. And that’s on the system to change and adapt. Both the legal institutions to be able to act faster and more definitively and with more awareness to the realities of harassment and online violence and the online hubs that refuse to cut into their massive profits to hire actual moderation teams to police bad behavior and make it actually stick.

And that’s the real tragedy of this development.

And as for the OP?

Well, given his “lovely” use of language, I’m sure the Trump shirt is just another thing that adds to his growing reputation that he’s a complete shit-eating asshole. Like, of course that asshole who erupts with constant slurs and tries to whine about “PC culture” is a Trump-supporting asshole.

Also, lol on the asshole trying to play victim. Like, oh noes, he thought my shirt was promoting hate… course I used a homophobic slur at him like a year ago, but like, he totally hates me all randomly and is just looking for an excuse to call me a bigot even though I’ve thoroughly demonstrated that fact on every possible occasion.

Like, do these idiots really have no clue why marginalized group members start being wary with assholes at their first slur or fucked up comment? LIke, are they so myopic that they don’t realize that we pay attention and “hold grudges” about those sorts of things because they don’t happen in a vacuum and it’s only a matter of time before they erupt in a giant vomit of bigoted assholic viewpoints?

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

This is mainly for Alan, since he asked about gender neutral pronouns in Scandinavian languages, but it’s really for anyone who might be interested. 🙂

I’ll only comment on the status of gender neutral pronouns in Swedish, since my knowledge of the other Scandinavian languages (and Finnish, Sami, etc) is limited.

Like many other languages, we only have gender specific pronouns in the third person singular. In the subject form, these are han (male) and hon (female). The object forms are honom (male) and henne (female). (From my experience with second language learners, I’ve noticed it’s common to get the subject forms mixed up since ‘o’ is often associated with male, while ‘a’ is associated with female. The object forms are often ignored altogether by second language learners, and simply replaced with the subject forms.)

Since we have gendered pronouns in the third person, naturally we are faced with the same problems as in English when we want to refer to a person of unknown gender, a hypothetical person, a person whose identity is not known, etc. Traditionally, this has been resolved by using han/hon, han eller hon (where eller = or), or some other more creative (but also more complicated) solutions.

All the way back in the 1960’s, the gender neutral hen was proposed in an article in a local newspaper, with reference to the Finnish gender neutral hän. (Skiriki commented on this Finnish pronoun earlier in the thread.) Between 1966, when the word was first suggested, and approximately 2008, the word hen was used by almost literally nobody.

Around 2008 or 2009, the word was picked up mainly by a very small number of trans people and used in blog posts. In this context, obviously a gender neutral pronoun was valuable for other reasons than originally intended, as I’m sure I don’t need to explain further here. Hen was used very frequently by exactly one blogger at this time, and it then spread to other adjacent bloggers. Eventually it came to the attention of the mainstream, and this was the birth of the word hen in the modern sense.

I make that distinction since at this time, it was used mainly for referring to non-binary people, or by those who simply didn’t want to use gendered pronouns ever. This is very different from the 1966 suggestion, which focused on eliminating the complicated han eller hon, while acknowledging the inherent sexism in using a male pronoun for a person of unknown gender.

The mainstream breakthrough happened as recently as 2012. By ‘breakthrough’, I don’t mean that people actually used the word more than before. Rather, the word was mentioned and talked about, and heavily discussed in the media. From 2012 and on, the word has been adopted by political parties, in the legal language of certain regions, by various media outlets, etc, mainly in order to replace han eller hon, while being very careful with using the word in other contexts.

Predictably, many people felt threatened by the mere idea of a gender neutral pronoun, taking it to mean that gendered pronouns were about to be eradicated, girls in blue and boys in pink, boys playing with dolls and girls playing with toy cars, the end of gendered naming conventions, the end of professional sports, the end of the language, the country or even the Universe as we know it, dogs marrying cats, cultural Marxism, communists everywhere raaahhhhh. Of course.

I, and many others, have often pointed out that gender neutral pronouns exist in many languages without needing Marxism at all. I’ve also made the point that all other Swedish personal pronouns are already gender neutral, and have been so since before Marx was even born, and nobody seems to have a problem with those. Apparently Marxism/communism is only needed for specifically the third person singular pronouns? Needless to say, those who responded to hen in this fashion were impervious to any form of rational arguments.

The slightly less outraged opposition took the route of suggesting gender neutral solutions using words that were already ‘in use’. These suggestions include:

den – translates to it, and rejected for obvious reasons
vederbörande – translates roughly to the person in question, needlessly long, very dated, never used by anyone, and also not a pronoun
denne – a demonstrative pronoun, i.e. not a personal pronoun, and also not gender neutral since the -e suggests male, whereas the female form would be denna
någon – translates to someone, obviously not appropriate
han eller hon – already rejected, and the reason why hen was suggested in the first place

Over these last few years, I’ve asked probably hundreds of people why exactly they are opposed to using a gender neutral pronoun where it would make grammatical sense, and not one person has been able to give an answer other than “cultural Marxism rahhh”. I’ve asked people with PhD:s in Nordic Languages, and the best answer I’ve received is “I suppose I’m just not ready yet”.

Some people have complained that hen is too close to the female object form henne, and thus isn’t perceived as gender neutral. I take that form of complaint as deliberate trolling.

There have also been discussions on what the gender neutral object form should be. Some have suggested, and still use, henom in the object position, as it’s perceived to be somewhere inbetween honom and henne. This seems to have been almost entirely replaced by using hen in the object form as well, motivated by the fact that the accusative as a ‘case’ is long dead in the Swedish language, and the object form pronouns are simply remnants of a grammar that once existed, and there’s no need to conform to patterns of the past.

Some have cautioned against the use of hen on the basis that it might make the reader upset, thus one should take into account who might read the text before using such a controversial word, lest it take focus from the main purpose. While I don’t generally agree with the idea that we should change they way we speak and write simply to spare the delicate feelings of the perpetually outraged, I do still consider the context before using hen since it is genuinely controversial. I’ve seen many examples of articles and blog posts online, where it doesn’t matter that 999 words were about something completely different, as long as 1 word is hen, that’s what the comment section will be about.

My perception is that hen has now made it past the initial outrage phase and is slowly making its way into everyday use, starting with the least controversial usage as exemplified above. While it’s still rare to see someone actually using hen in a text that isn’t about pronouns, or in a context other than explicitly political left wing, things are moving in that direction.

As of 2015, hen has entered mainstream dictionaries. Yes, 2015, that’s how current this debate is.

To answer your specific question: Yup, it’s an issue. :p

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

Daaamn. Sorry for the teal deer.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ dhag

Thank you ever so much for that. That is genuinely fascinating as I do so I very much all the work you put into that.

I love having something to cogitate and mull over, and you’ve really provided me with some wonderful brain toffee! 🙂

So many thoughts already stimulated, I’m going to enjoy this morning now.

ETA: blame me for the teal deer folks, I was the person who wanted this!

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

@Alan

No probs! It’s a topic of interest for me anyway. 🙂

I wanted to add a note about the “impersonal pronoun”, corresponding to the English one. In Swedish, we’ve traditionally used the word man for this purpose. As you might guess, man suggests male. People who prefer to avoid gendered pronouns when not referring to a specific gender have recently started to use the word en as replacement for man as an impersonal pronoun, where en literally translates to one.

Skiriki
Skiriki
4 years ago

To be honest, tl;dr doesn’t matter if the text is well-written and enjoyable to read, as Dhag’s post was: it explained the whole deal in detail, yet didn’t meander and go in useless roundabouts. An entire tl;dr in chanspeak? Good effin’ gods, spare me, that’s an eyesore.

occasional reader
occasional reader
4 years ago

Hello.

Sisters

As someone already stated it, i was thinking this kind of term was mainly used for the christian devoted women. And by the free-mason houses (the ones who have opened their ranks to women, obviously).
But why not ? Are the feminist women all going “High five, Sis !” or “Sis, do you even lift ?”, and going to share sis-tip to pick up men ?

Totally credible.

Have a nice day.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
4 years ago

I agree with Skiriki – that was fascinating, IP. Thank you for explaining it so clearly.

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

@skiriki & Victorious Parasol

Thanks for reading. 🙂 I’m happy you enjoyed it.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ dhag et al

I’m still digesting all that (in a good way). One thought that immediately comes to mind is what you say about gender neutral documents. Over here we use this formula!

Except where otherwise indicated any reference in this Agreement to the masculine shall be deemed to include the feminine

Funnily enough you do now see the occasional document with the genders reversed, but then it’s all “PC gone mad”. It says a lot though that that does actually stick out when you see it.

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

@Alan

The specific example I had in mind was the case of Åland, a small group of islands located between mainland Finland and Sweden, officially a part of Finland but the local population is almost entirely Swedish speaking. They recently updated their laws related to drivers licenses in 2015, and it was suggested that the new legal text should replace han/hon with hen. This suggestion was actually voted through, with 11 votes in favor and 10 votes opposing (7 abstaining).

The conservatives voted against the gender neutral pronoun, using very bizarre arguments. For example, they complained that there’s a different word also spelled hen, an ancient word referring to some form of sharpening stone, and this could allegedly cause confusion despite the fact that this other hen was already considered dated almost a century ago, according to articles from that time. I’d guess none of the people making this complaint had even heard of the other hen until it could be used as a dumb argument against a pronoun they didn’t like.

An even more bizarre argument against hen was that hen in English refers to a bird, therefore it could be confusing if used in legal texts. I’m not kidding, this is actually an argument they used.

Skiriki
Skiriki
4 years ago

An even more bizarre argument against hen was that hen in English refers to a bird, therefore it could be confusing if used in legal texts. I’m not kidding, this is actually an argument they used.

What a bizarre argument.

Since “gift” is “poison” in Swedish, but “gift” in English means “present”, couldn’t they argue that Swedes need to change their word so there’s no dangerous confusion for English-speakers? Somehow, I don’t think they’re going to suggest that…

(Let’s not forget the entire “gifta sig” which doesn’t mean “poisoning yourself”, too!)

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

@Skiriki

No argument is too stupid when fighting cultural Marxism. :p

reimalebario
reimalebario
4 years ago

@Victorious Parasol
You can still find Time Cube archived on the Wayback Machine (possibly archived for all time – cube and otherwise), if you need to show it to somebody.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
4 years ago

@ reimalebario

Yeah, something like Time Cube is easier to show than to explain, isn’t it?

Skiriki
Skiriki
4 years ago

IP (Sorry about earlier slip to dhag, btw, slip of memory):

No argument is too stupid when fighting cultural Marxism. :p

Yeah… I’ve noticed.

Right now we have a bunch of right-wing goons proudly stating that they’re defending Finland and Finnish culture and Finnish people from scary foreign things. They call themselves “Soldiers of Odin”.

Can you spot a flaw in this? Countdown! The answer is below!

10..
9…
8…
7…
6…
5…
4…
3…
2…
1…

“Odin” is in no way a part of Finnish pagan pantheon. We had our own set of deities (some definitely slightly inspired by Nordic paganism thanks to eastbound vikings, but definitely not named after it).

It seems that some foreign elements are just fine… funny, isn’t it? And that they are in no way racist, noooo (well, actual Icelandic Odin-worshippers said “please stop, this is not what Odin is about”, but hey, who cares about that when it is getting on the way of hate?).

Please read heavy levels of sarcasm in this. Bunch of dingleberries, the whole lot. I frankly prefer Loldiers of Odin — clowns who “coincidentally” protest whenever former are on a march. And I got a phobia of clowns.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

I love that Time Cube is part of the shared cultural heritage of everyone who’s been on the internet for a certain length of time. Even now that it’s gone, people will describe things as “timecube-ish.” One day when members of our generation are in positions of power, that term is going to be used in campaign speeches.

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
4 years ago

Cerberus,
I think it’s the same thing with rape. There’s always, always at least one person who says that if a rape victim doesn’t go to the police, they’re either making it up for attention or are to be blamed for future victims of their rapist, because reporting a rape definitely always results in the rapist being jailed. They use this anytime a rape survivor speaks of their rape publicly. They said it about Bill Cosby’s victims even though several of them actually did go to the police and nothing was done.

They know the system is broken and reporting is so often just as traumatic if not more so than the rape itself. They don’t shrug and say “just go to the cops” out of ignorance IMO. Because when someone explains all the reasons victims don’t report, they never say something along the lines of “thanks for bringing that to my attention.” They always just double down. Every time.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ imaginary petal

So sorry, just realised I hadn’t updated on the name! Ironic really, considering what we were discussing.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
4 years ago

And “han” will confuse people because in English it might make you think of a Chinese dynasty, and “hon” will confuse people because in English it’s a contraction for a term of endearment … and “han” is 3rd person plural present indicative of the verb “to have” in Spanish, and “hon” is short for “honourable” … and seriously, they pretended to worry about “hen” meaning a bird in another language from another country altogether?!?!?! Wow.

Um, this is really just to say – hi and thanks; reading with interest. Also the Magna Carta bit. (And marvelling at the weird troll who pretends to think that condescension out of the blue makes a good “hello” (and who thinks anyone would refer to anyone else as their “fellow sisters”).

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

@WwTH

I know you’re talking about mostly trolls and rape apologists, but I’d like to add that some of us actually did grow up with the assumption that if you report a crime, of which you are the victim, people will protect you and the police will make sure the perpetrator is arrested and brought to justice. This was mostly as a consequence of never personally having to deal with law enforcement at all.

When I was, let’s say, in my late teens or early 20s, I probably thought “just report it to the police!” was a reasonable response to someone who said they’d been raped. Of course, I was always of the mindset that one should be able to change one’s mind and assumptions when faced with evidence, and I have often thanked feminists for bringing tons of things to my attention which I would’ve probably never discovered on my own.

So I would say this does actually happen, but maybe not in the context of talking to obnoxious rape apologists on the internet.

@Skiriki & Alan

No worries about the name thing, I honestly didn’t even notice. :p

rhuu
rhuu
4 years ago

@imaginary petals: that was really interesting, thank you! I’d love an English equivalent, though repurposing ‘they’ when i’m unsure about the gender/pronouns of the person i’m talking about has worked so far.

I need to go and look up this Timecube now…

@SFHC: Your job is AMAZING.

Monzach
Monzach
4 years ago

@Imaginary Petal

The fact that the Åland Islands (or Ahvenanmaa in Finnish) belongs to Finland is actually the last decision of the League of Nations that’s still in force. When you start to think about it, it’s pretty appropriate that the situation is seen as fairly unfortunate by the inhabitants of Åland who would much rather belong to Sweden. 😀

guy
guy
4 years ago

I am quite up for foreign grammar discussions. Incidentally, the reason why second-language learners have trouble with han and hon is probably from Latin; a is used as part of the endings in the first declension, which is mostly feminine, while o is used for several of the endings in the second declension, which is at least mostly masculine or neuter. a is also used for neuter nominative and accusative plurals, but that doesn’t seem to have much impact on the Romance Languages.

A. Noyd
A. Noyd
4 years ago

One might as well complain that “hen” is Japanese for “peculiar.”

Cerberus
Cerberus
4 years ago

IP- Thanks so so much for that. I’ve got a few non-binary students in my classes who ask about non-binary pronouns in other languages and so knowing more about the specific history of “hen” in Sweden is super useful for me. So yeah, thank you.

WWTH- Very true. And it’s probably where a lot of these harasser types started using that as a means of dismissing victims.

kupo
kupo
4 years ago

That was really interesting, Imaginary Petal. Language is an interesting subject. It was very controversial here when we started changing the books from using terms like “fireman” to “firefighter.” I believe that was also considered PC gone out of control. I remember lots of news stories about it in probably the 80s. With our current political climate I can’t see the US ever changing pronouns even if the rest of the world did. Heck, I can’t see the US giving maternity leave or holidays to workers (these are benefits an employer can choose to give or not) or adopting the metric system. We fight change hard and for no good reason.

guy
guy
4 years ago

I’d say the US is actually pretty well on the way to standardizing singular they. It’s gotten into major newspaper manuals of style. Some people complain about having the same pronoun be singular and plural, but it’s rarely a practical issue. I have literally only seen it being an issue reading an English-Japanese dictionary, because Japanese does not have grammatical plurals but does have some specific words that are always plural and also has gender-ambiguous pronouns.

Though there is a slight point I want to bring up; there’s a difference between gender-ambiguous and genderless. “They” can mean male, female, both, or neither, while “it” is explicitly neither. Since “it” is for things and not people to the point where it’s fiction shorthand for “does not think X are people”, English does not presently have a widely accepted pronoun to specifically refer to someone who is neither, so if people who are neither care I can support an effort to make/popularize one.

Skiriki
Skiriki
4 years ago

Re: Finnish pronouns.

“Hän” covers all cases, ambiguous or not or totally genderless — it is a word intended to be used for humans (and in case of fiction, also for other sapient people).

“Se” (“it”) is a word for everything else — animals, inanimate objects, etc. Could be used if you write a story about making a point regarding AI rights etc. No gendered significance, either.

Of course there’s some overlap in less formal usage. Pet owners can eagerly extend ‘hän’ for their beloved animals, and sometimes people dish ‘se’ for everyone, type of being be damned.

So roughly put (singular to plural):
People pronouns:
Minä
Sinä
Hän
Me
Te
He

Not-people pronouns:
Tämä
Tuo
Se
Nämä
Nuo
Ne

Then there’s the old-fashioned plural-you, aka “teitittely”. Normally, Finns are very much about “being on singular-you” basis after first introduction, but it is not that long time ago when it was polite to ask strangers “What would you like” (“Mitä teille saisi olla?”) (for example), where “you” is the plural form (“te”), a bit like “royal we”, but instead used by others about you and giving you a slight boost of status/respect.

It was also a sign of age when people stopped using singular-you and swapped to plural-you (usually 30-40 years of age), which may explain why it went out of fashion in 80s and 90s when being forever young became a thing.

guy
guy
4 years ago

Yeah, Se sounds like it would have similar connotations to it if used to refer to a person. English basically has a stock conversation for sci-fi about nonhuman/humans treated as nonhuman that goes “Recently, he*-” “It’s not a he, it’s an it”. In stories where the conversation happens onscreen the audience is generally assumed to side with “he is a person, not a thing.”

*Or she; prior to singular they becoming widely accepted in the modern era he was the standard default; for a period he technically was neutral but connotated masculine. Anyways, she is used if discussing an AI that seems female/nonhuman that is female, he has historically been used otherwise.

jenninsb
jenninsb
4 years ago

@Cerberus

Thank you for this explanation.

I’ve seen this pattern before on this WHTM, and been confused. I think if I came in to a new space, offered a bunch of people my incredibly wise insights, and they didn’t want them, I’d just leave. I wouldn’t go on for a bazillion words trying to convince them of my wisdom.

Maybe there’s a distinction between trolling and arguing in bad faith to be made. Sometimes, diverting from the original topic seems to be the whole point, but in this case, the original topic was so trivial that doesn’t make sense.

The whole thing annoying nevertheless.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

I’d never considered before that the ‘o’/’a’ thing for girls’ and boys’ names comes from the Latin. It’s funny how some names just sound male or female, but of course presumably that’s just because I’m conditioned by what I’ve heard all my life.

I’m thinking now of created names for sci if and fantasy works. A lot of those seem to just ‘sound’ male of female, even though they’re completely made up and have all sorts of random letters and punctuation marks. Again that’s presumably because there’s some underlying rules based on how we gender names in real language?

guy
guy
4 years ago

I think English feminine names tend to contain more vowels and end with them more frequently. That’s definitely true of some of the ones that started masculine and drifted to feminine like Claire. Or Christopher vs. Christine. English gets stuff from a lot of languages, but my “masculine or feminine?” sense tends to match Latin rules.

Skiriki
Skiriki
4 years ago

Re: names.

Finnish names tend to get funny here, because there doesn’t seem to be any significance regarding ‘a’/’o’ division, even if Latin and Biblical names have been influencing us for over ten centuries.

Quick, pick which names are men’s and which are women’s (and don’t Google either!):

Niko, Jukka, Pirjo, Mikko, Antti, Miika, Pirkko, Esko, Panu, Niilo, Esa, Veli, Sinita, Sisko, Anniina, Pertti, Rauha, Onni, Aino, Juho, Satu, Saku, Valo, Iro, Kielo.

What is weird is that names are fairly strongly gendered, and in a manner “you just gotta know what’s what”, although there are couple of names that have, during the years, occasionally swapped camps or coexisted peacefully in both.

Did you guess? Countdown time!

10…

9…

8…

6…

“Six? What happened to seven?”
“Just kidding!”

5…

4…

3…

2…

1…

Men’s names: Niko, Jukka, Mikko, Antti, Miika, Esko, Panu, Niilo, Esa, Veli, Pertti, Onni, Juho, Saku, Valo.

Women’s names: Pirjo, Pirkko, Sinita, Sisko, Anniina, Rauha, Aino, Satu, Iro, Kielo.

As a fun bonus: if you know how to pronounce Japanese, then you can pretty easily speak Finnish (and vice versa). Our syllablic structures are fairly close to each other… and sometimes, Finnish words resemble Japanese words.

To the point of embarrassment.

For example, we used to have Prime Minister whose name was Esko Aho.

Homework: Figure out why this was a tad hilarious combo! 😀

guy
guy
4 years ago
Reply to  Skiriki

My Japanese is somewhat limited, but I’m guessing “stupid girl” or similar depending on kanji.

Skiriki
Skiriki
4 years ago

In that ballpark, yeah. “Aho”, slightly depending on dialect, occasionally swaps meanings with “Baka”, but if we go with “daft” as a non-ableist compromise, I think we can say “close enough”.

Shiny gold star for you!

Mind, in my opinion, he was a pretty daft dude and I had immense dislike for his policies, but in retrospect when compared to some ministerial people we got right now, he’s downright charming and solid thinker. *sigh*

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

@Alan:
It’s because most languages invented for fantasy books by white people borrow extremely heavily from Latin.

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
4 years ago

Is it me or are there a lot of us Nordics here? I know Skiriki is a Finnish comrade and IP a Swede. 😛

ETA: Thanks so much for the language talk, the vast knowledge of the commenters here is not low on the list of things why I come here.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
4 years ago

Absolutely, we get so accustomed to certain associations we tend to make them without thinking.
(Which is why I keep having to remind myself every time that Andrea is typically a man’s name in Italy.)

Skiriki
Skiriki
4 years ago

Leda Atomica: yeah and there’s Arctic Ape who is a Finn and tons of more people who are from Nordic regions, yup yup.

IMHO, the mix of various nationalities is one of the best things in this place. Because it gives healthy perspective, if one manages to really listen… er, read people, who share their experiences.

And side discussions are fun! Even if the main topics are rather grim.

Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
Imaginary Petal (formerly dhag85, trying out pronouns - they/their)
4 years ago

Lanariel is Swedish, Monzach is Finnish, right?

Monzach
Monzach
4 years ago

@Skiriki and @Leda Atomica

A fellow Finnish person over here! *waves*

Shall we meet at a market place somewhere? ^_^

ETA: It seems I got ninja’d by Imaginary Petal… ô.Ô

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ skiriki

Is everybody in Finland named after a rally driver? 😉

@EJ

That’s what I guessed. I was going to ask about writers from other countries, but that’s sort of been answered.

Dalillama
Dalillama
4 years ago

@Skikiri

(well, actual Icelandic Odin-worshippers said “please stop, this is not what Odin is about”, but hey, who cares about that when it is getting on the way of hate?).

That particular split has been going on pretty much since the beginning of the neopagan revival. The non-racist ones call themselves Asatruar, the racist ones call themselves ‘folkish’ Asatruar, or often Odinists, and the two groups hate each other like poison.

Then there’s the old-fashioned plural-you, aka “teitittely”. Normally, Finns are very much about “being on singular-you” basis after first introduction, but it is not that long time ago when it was polite to ask strangers “What would you like” (“Mitä teille saisi olla?”) (for example), where “you” is the plural form (“te”), a bit like “royal we”, but instead used by others about you and giving you a slight boost of status/respect.

French is similar, and English used to be, although not for a few centuries now (thee/thou was the singular/informal form, you was the plural/formal form, but is now the only form.)

Quick, pick which names are men’s and which are women’s (and don’t Google either!

I actually knew Pirkko, but that’s only because there was a story in a folktale collection I had as a kid where the protagonists were Pirkko and her brother whose name escapes me. IIRC they played cruel jokes on the king until he died and they took his place or something.