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#gamergate doxing swatting terrorism

Congresswoman Leading the Fight Against Swatting is, You Guessed It, Swatted

Rep. Katherine Clark
Rep. Katherine Clark

From the Boston Globe:

US Representative Katherine Clark and her husband were watching “Veep” Sunday night, when police lights engulfed her Melrose [Massachusetts] home.

Clark went outside, assuming something was wrong with one of her neighbors. But she said she was alarmed and frightened to see cruisers blocking both ends of her street and “multiple officers, some with long guns, on my front lawn.”

An officer told her they had received a report of an active shooter at her house, where her 13- and 16-year-old boys had just gone to bed.

But of course.

As the Globe notes, Clark is the sponsor of a bill that would make swatting a federal crime. Swatting, of course, is the practice of maliciously making false reports in order to send swarms of police and/or SWAT teams to the home of your target.

It’s not a hypothetical worry: several Gamergate critics have been swatted. And it goes without saying that it’s pretty dangerous to send a small army of heavily armed cops to a home where they think an active shooter is barricaded.

If Clark’s swatters intended to intimidate her, they seem to have failed. The Globe again:

Clark acknowledged that the experience Sunday night was deeply disconcerting.

But asked if she would be less vocal about the issue now, she laughed and said no.

“If that was the intent of calling in this event,” Clark said, “I think they have underestimated my commitment to making sure that we do stop this practice.”

Clark said she had been very sympathetic to people have been the victims of swatting before Sunday night but now fully understands what it’s like.

“It will,” she said, “really cause me to double down.”

Targeting a politician with what is essentially terrorism? Doesn’t seem like a particularly smart choice on the part of whoever was behind this.

H/T — r/GamerGhazi

 

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Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ EJ & Orion

I also appreciate burger flippers (the ones who operate out of vans though, not the fast food place types) but realistically are they really who you want to be calling if someone attacks you?

All joking apart, who would a society without police benefit the most? I’m quite lucky in terms of likelihood of being attacked (I’m also a moderately decent shot) but what about others? Yes, there is a huge problem that the police don’t serve everyone equally, but we might be able to address that problem without getting shut of the police completely.

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
5 years ago

Re: Trump

Suddenly I feel like watching The Man Who Would Be King again. Except I doubt he’ll walk onto the bridge quite as admirably as Sean Connery.

Kale
Kale
5 years ago

EJ- when I first got steady enough internet (late, poor) to fuck around in comments, I was convinced all these trolls needed was education. I had gotten plenty sans internet (not to be braggy) the hard way so I thought if I can just post some links to studies, oh I will open their eyes and save the world! So I would post eloquent essays on youtube, meticulously cited. & they WOULDNT EVEN READ IT. Much less visit a link! Apparent as they responsed in nonsequitor brainwashed bleats.
These are not critical thinkers seeking truth who have been misled, they are purposefully self-deluded (NOT to be confused with the delusions of an illness), purposefully ignorant, for selfish emotional reasons. but wimmens is so hysterical tho.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@Kat:

These are not critical thinkers seeking truth who have been misled, they are purposefully self-deluded (NOT to be confused with the delusions of an illness), purposefully ignorant, for selfish emotional reasons.

This is utterly true and really sad; and you phrase it really well.

If you have any of those essays saved anywhere, please link me! I always like explanations of cool things.

katz
5 years ago

All joking apart, who would a society without police benefit the most?

Black teenagers.

kale
kale
5 years ago

EJ- thanks! alas, that was many moons ago and I dont even remember my old usernames. It was basic should-be-common-sense stuff like “no, really, sexism does in fact exist”. Im too busy with my return school to pontificate extensively atm, & I seperate my IRL identify from my “SJW” comments after getting harassed.

Katz – YUP

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ Katz

You make a good point. Remove the police and white people may feel more in danger, but black people may well feel safer. That’s pretty sad; but it’s a punchy way of illustrating the situation.

dhag85
dhag85
5 years ago

I posted this link in the Dawkins thread but I’ll put it here too since this is the latest post, and this might be of interest to David.

http://www.donotlink.com/i3zc

Juicebro is making a documentary, along with some other weirdo (Loren Feldman) who seems to have previously made a fawning fanboy movie about Milo Y. The movie was called American Milo. I’m not joking.

EDIT: Both Juicebro and Nazi Loren are of course huge Trump supporters, and today they’ve both been busy claiming Trump’s poor result in the Iowa caucus was due to fraud. Owww, so salty.

Kirbywarp
Kirbywarp
5 years ago

How strange is it to make an entire movie based on how free speech doesn’t exist? They pretty much have to fail to succeed, but their failure would almost certainly just be lack of interest and lack of talent.

dhag85
dhag85
5 years ago

@kirbywarp

Right? I almost feel like they’ve defeated their own premise by simply getting the word out about this project.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

Ooh, how about we raise loads of money for a project about creativity, communication and free speech and all that, and say it’s a multi media platform

Then we don’t do anything.

It’s all ironic and post modern, like that 3′ 17″ of silence thing.

Who’s in with me? I’ll take care of all the actual production side of things and you just sort the fundraising .

Hambeast, Social Justice Beastie
Hambeast, Social Justice Beastie
5 years ago

Alan:

It’s all ironic and post modern, like that 3′ 17″ of silence thing.

It’s actually 4′ 33″ actually, but like that idea. But I think we have to make a video showing the money with a credit to John Cage for the “music” 4′ 33″ worth, natch.

I took an art course for visual artists where we had to study music and dance and let me tell you, I thought 4’33” was the best thing he ever wrote!

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ hambeast

It’s actually 4′ 33″ actually

I’ve got the disco remix.

Hambeast, Social Justice Beastie
Hambeast, Social Justice Beastie
5 years ago

Drat you, Alan! I snortled water into my borrowed laptop keyboard >:(
And now my nose hurts.

But anyhow, make sure we get Paradoxy to do the graphics and any voice overs cuz she’s awesome at both.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Hambeast, Social Justice Beastie | February 2, 2016 at 5:06 pm
But anyhow, make sure we get Paradoxy to do the graphics and any voice overs cuz she’s awesome at both.

comment image

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I don’t know about the UK, but in the US police work doesn’t even crack the top ten most dangerous jobs.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/01/28/charted-the-20-deadliest-jobs-in-america/

The excuse that cops put their lives on the line so much that they can’t be blamed for shooting anyone who “looks like a demon” just never holds up for me.

I also don’t see why the only way to deal with a mentally ill person having a breakdown is too shoot them. Somehow workers in ERs and psychiatric wards manage to non-violently deal with mentally ill people in distress all the time.

There are some cops who are on a power trip and are looking for an excuse to use force. There are good cops who aren’t like that, but until they stop making excuses and covering for the bad ones, I’m feel perfectly fine with side-eyeing the entire institution.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

I’ve heard Paradoxy do her video game commentary thing and it is the most adorable voice ever.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ WWTH

Most injuries our Police get is from stuff like lifting things wrong or tripping up (not meaning that in a derisory way).

It’s a massive thing over here if a cop gets killed, were talking number one thing on the news for weeks. In fact there was a story about our last cop killer just the other day, and that happened a few years back.

Over here more coppers have been killed than people have been killed by cops. I think that’s a “good thing” (without of course wishing any ill on the police as I’m sure you understand). The statistic that my US friends put up very time you have a cop killing is something like Brit police have killed fewer people since WW2 than US cops kill in a three week period. We average one cop killing every 5 years or so.

There’s lots of factors. Our police feel a bit safer so they don’t need to be trigger happy. There’s an understanding amongst criminals that cop killing is out of bounds, and at the same time the cops first thought won’t be to kill you, so things are less likely to escalate.

And because of our culture if a cop sees a kid with even a realistic looking gun, then it’s almost certainly a toy, so there’s some breathing space.

There’s a video on youtube I think of some armed police officers actually intercepting a kid with a gun in the street. Pretty different to how it would play in the US. More of a “daft bugger, think what might have happened” sort of thing.

Bit garbled there, but you get some of my points?

katz
5 years ago

There’s lots of factors. Our police feel a bit safer so they don’t need to be trigger happy.

Yes, but the reason cops feel unsafe here is racism. They see black children and they feel unsafe. It’s not because of the actual danger level.

Which brings us back to the real problem: Our cops are racist.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ Katz

We used to have a thing here called police houses. Basically public housing for police, but in the area they patrolled. That’s not the case now but there’s still a trend to try to get uniformed officers to police areas they live in so they’re from the community they serve. That helps a bit.

We of course did have a problem with racism. No doubt it’s still not completely cured, but after a notorious murder case and a fucked up investigation there was eventually a big public enquiry where some difficult questions were faced up to, and some overdue self examination and houseclearing took place.

We also have a thing called ‘integrity testing’. Basically undercover cops of various races act like ‘mystery shoppers’, that keeps people in line.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

And because of our culture if a cop sees a kid with even a realistic looking gun, then it’s almost certainly a toy, so there’s some breathing space.

Unless he’s black, of course. Then they shoot him dead, blame him for it and lie about it.

I know you’re an establishment guy, Alan, and so you feel the need to support the establishment; but in this case it comes off pretty thin. Any application for sainthood on behalf of the Metropolitan Police has to be severely side-eyed.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ EJ

Well, I’m sort of a take people as I find them. I don’t have any preconceptions about the police. I know they’re far from perfect, but I do work with them and many of them are ok.

(I work for the establishment at times and at other times against it. In D&D terms I’m lawful neutral)

I can’t think of any example of our cops shooting a black kid. The nearest was Mark Duggan. We of course had some riots about that, but that seemed just an excuse for mayhem. When they interviewed people afterwards most of them didn’t know anything about the actual event that had supposedly triggered it.

What was interesting about the Duggan case was that many people in the black community spoke up against middle class white people lauding him. Black people in his own community felt the same way about him as a white community would feel about a gun runner.

As the mother of a black kid killed by a gun supplied by Duggan’s gang put it “It’s not middle class white kids being caught in the cross fire”

Of course lots of white people jumped all over her saying how she didn’t understand racism.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

All joking apart, who would a society without police benefit the most?

Black teenagers.

Is there a Truest Thing Ever Posted On The Internet award?

katz
5 years ago

I don’t have any preconceptions about the police.

Yes you do. Everyone does.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ Katz

No, I think I can say I genuinely don’t (except insofar as I know there’s a police force etc.)

I’ve seen great cops, I’ve seen terrible cops. I appreciate as a white guy my dealings with the police will be different than my black friends. Not necessarily in outcome, but certainly in undercurrent. But many of my cop acquaintances are not white, so I understand it’s a complex situation.

At any given time my default position on the police is informed by my previous experiences and I’m happy to modify that position as new information comes in.

I get perhaps a broader perspective than many people. I lecture the police but I also act for a lot of the criminal gangs (only white guy the broadwater farm guys will instruct, not saying that to show any cred, but I do know how they operate). You know I do the self defence law stuff. Last case I did was for a guy who stabbed a copper (acquitted). The next time it could be for a cop who hit someone.

You know how detached I am about stuff. That’s pretty much my attitude to everything. Only ignorance begets certainty and all that.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
5 years ago

@Alan

Are we talking American cops or British cops because, like, apples and pigs, man, apples and pigs.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ pandapool

Brit cops.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

Found that video.

http://youtu.be/PwFu0wZ6Igg

sparkalipoo
sparkalipoo
5 years ago

@NickNameNick

I hate false equivalencies to–I have a friend who’s caught up in the whole “feminists and gamergaters are equally as bad” despite the fact that EVERY “evil feminist” he has tried to show me has turned out to be a troll and I’m trying to avoid one of my boyfriend’s friends because he thinks pointing out that women have it worse than men is competing in the oppression olympics.

Also, this might not technically be a false equivalence but it pissed me off, some people are criticizing this memecomment image
about Sanders and Hilton for being sexist and in the comments on buzzfeed people kept saying how noticing that Hillary is being treated differently is what’s really sexist

back OT–as someone who lives in Massachusetts I’m kind of proud that out legislature has taken measures to try to counter newer (I’m assuming swatting is new) sex based harassment

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
5 years ago

@Alan

I had this whole tirade that kinda went off point from what I was trying to say but, basically, I don’t think you, as a British white guy, have any ground to discuss about the police in the United State and comparing them to your British ones in such a flippant manner.

Of course, every day it seems someone dies in police custody with either weak excuses if an excuse is even given, so I’m probably rather sensitive about anything positive about the police.

I haven’t seen it discussed here, but the latest in-custody killing I’ve heard of was of a 16 year old girl earlier this month, so excuse me if I just want to tear the whole fucking system of pig fuckers down at this point.

katz
5 years ago

That meme is so shit. It doesn’t even make sense. Hillary’s the policy wonk who has really detailed, well-researched opinions about every single thing.

Also, the fact that there’s a Radiohead one pretty much tells you all you need to know about Bernie bros.

http://i.imgur.com/BDrrYKk.png

The sexism and double standard in the Democratic primary is really getting to me. Some good articles about it.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ panda

I hope I haven’t been flippant, apologies if it seemed that way.

I think I can comment though to a certain extent about some of the more obvious defects in US policing and the differences between the US and the UK. Obviously the bulk of my experience is this side of the pond but I do a have some professional contacts with people examining the situation on your side.

As we mentioned up thread policing generally is a huge topic.

Whereabouts are you located? I might be able to put you in touch with some people who work to address some of the injustices in the system. As you’re probably aware it’s not exactly an over funded enterprise so they’d appreciate any help you could give.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

The sexism and double standard in the Democratic primary is really getting to me. Some good articles about it.

So it’s not just me? I’ve been wondering how much of Sanders’ sudden popularity was driven by his politics and how much was driven by misogyny, brogressives who don’t want to vote Republican but can’t vote for a woman, but thought I was just reading too much into it. I’m not sure if I feel vindicated (I’m not paranoid!) or annoyed (fuck brogressives). Annoydicated?

(I know there are a lot of people here who do prefer Sanders for his politics, not his gender, so please know that I’m not talking about you guys. I’m only talking about the dudebros who spam “FEEL THE BERN” everywhere, call Clinton the c-word and say horrible racist shit about #BLM.)

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
5 years ago

@Alan

You can comment on the broader, obvious defects all you want but unless you live in the system, you still have no right to talk about them like you did. Listen to us Americans who are talking about American police forces instead of comparing them to British ones with your British perspective. That is all I’m asking from you.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ panda

Will do. Can you give me some specific examples of the problematic comments. This isn’t one of those ‘yeah, citations!” rhetorical gotcha things. I comment a lot in other arenas about comparative policing so it would be helpful to know areas where I’m putting my foot in it!

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
5 years ago

@Alan

Some of the points here other people have already addressed, but these are what stuck out to me.

There’s lots of factors. Our police feel a bit safer so they don’t need to be trigger happy. There’s an understanding amongst criminals that cop killing is out of bounds, and at the same time the cops first thought won’t be to kill you, so things are less likely to escalate.

katz responded:

Yes, but the reason cops feel unsafe here is racism. They see black children and they feel unsafe. It’s not because of the actual danger level.

Which brings us back to the real problem: Our cops are racist.

And I like to add last I heard, police on your side of the pond don’t even carry guns on their person while some of ours has military grade weaponry as standard issue in the stations that like to tote around. This, admittedly, was addressed by President Obama last year, but then again, it was addressed last year and had been going on since 1997. Some places still have military weapons.

So of course British police wouldn’t have itchy trigger fingers if they don’t carry around guns.

We of course did have a problem with racism. No doubt it’s still not completely cured, but after a notorious murder case and a fucked up investigation there was eventually a big public enquiry where some difficult questions were faced up to, and some overdue self examination and houseclearing took place.

We technically do the same “houseclearing”, but the corruption is so deep, cops get slaps on the wrist. They often get paid leave. There’s a reason why people were happy that cop got jail time for raping all those women a few weeks back.

EJ responded:

Unless he’s black, of course. Then they shoot him dead, blame him for it and lie about it.

I know you’re an establishment guy, Alan, and so you feel the need to support the establishment; but in this case it comes off pretty thin. Any application for sainthood on behalf of the Metropolitan Police has to be severely side-eyed.

(I know EJ isn’t American but he’s got the right idea.)

Yes, it hinges a lot on the color of your skin with the cops. Racism runs so deep in the system, cops are afraid to turn on their own if they’re black. (Link has a video btw.)

Well, I’m sort of a take people as I find them. I don’t have any preconceptions about the police. I know they’re far from perfect, but I do work with them and many of them are ok.

You’re very dismissive here. A few good cops do not outweigh the bad, especially when the bad are VERY bad and the good have no power in the system. There is no easy way to get rid of a bad cop within the system.

And we see in this very article that the system can be abused by almost anyone. There’s been many people who have been injured and killed in instances of SWATing. There have been many pets that have injured and killed in instances of SWATing. Homes damaged, resources wasted. It’s not something to be thought of lightly because the assholes who SWAT people take it lightly, as it’s used commonly as a “prank” during gaming livestreams.

People don’t even need to SWAT to do such damage to people. Just call the cops and say there’s a disturbance at a residence and the cops are likely to respond violently. You remember the young black kids at the swimming pool or the poor girl in class.

Of course, many of those crimes are racially motivated. There was also, recently, a cop handcuffing a disabled child. I would link more cases but, honestly, I’m lazy and don’t want to link everything.

You frequent here a lot and I’ve seen you talking about the examples I’ve posted above plus many other examples of how shitty the police are here. These aren’t just once in awhile things that happen, nor should they be viewed on a case by case basis; this shit happens every day and are deeply ingrain in the system you’re speaking very lightly about by comparing how Britain does it “right”. You cannot use your experience of your country’s police system when talking about our own.

NickNameNick
NickNameNick
5 years ago

@P.I.

Well, what do you expect when you legitimately believe you’re right about everything all the time?

These guys literally expect us to drop to our knees the moment they acknowledge our existence. They’ll say they don’t, but then they turn around and get all snippy when that doesn’t happen.

It comes off as really insecure though, as if admitting fault is a sign of weakness – even though their constant denial is an obvious act of cowardice. Between admitting I’m wrong and being a coward, I’d rather just admit I’m wrong.

Either that, or they engage in “My Experiences are Universal, and that means if I didn’t see it, it didn’t happen!”.

Talk about your God Complex.

Which is funny, when I’m incredulous of their stories involving gangs of roving Dworkinites on university campuses – they fault me for not being considerate of their experiences.

It’s an anecdote I used to give the benefit of the doubt, until I had been to enough university campuses and noticed how similar each anecdote was from the last. It reminds me of a phenomenon during the Vietnam War where there were rumors of anti-war protesters spitting on returning soldiers, repeated so much that people believed it was an actual thing…even though there wasn’t enough evidence to show it was that ubiquitous. If it did occur, they were isolated incidents, and it doesn’t help such anecdotes came from people who supported the war anyway.

I simply can’t help but assume, when hearing that anecdote, that the reality was that they got into a heated discussion with a fairly reasonable feminist and poorly reacted to such – to the point where their entire perception of the event is absurdly skewed. Thus, a normal feminist becomes a raging man-hating Dworkinite.

But, hey, they can generalize and misrepresent very common and factually proven experiences of marginalized groups ’cause reasons…

@sparkalipoo

I hate false equivalencies to–I have a friend who’s caught up in the whole “feminists and gamergaters are equally as bad” despite the fact that EVERY “evil feminist” he has tried to show me has turned out to be a troll and I’m trying to avoid one of my boyfriend’s friends because he thinks pointing out that women have it worse than men is competing in the oppression olympics.

I partly blame that on overexposure to the internet – I’d call it “internet addiction”, but usage of the medium is so common now that the term seems dated. Still, that doesn’t mean some people spend too much time on the internet and erroneously attach more importance to online individuals than is warranted.

Really, having a conversations where someone tries to “prove” all feminists must be crazy by quoting some internet rando is exhausting at this point. They expect me to be shocked or surprised, but I can’t because I don’t know who that person is or what they say actually matters.

Just look at Anita Sarkeesian: all she’s doing is analyzing tropes in fiction, specifically videogames, and the implied sexism that comes with some of them. Yet all her critics act as if she wields the power to take away all the games they love and she criticizes…which she doesn’t. She could influence others, like with Volition in relation to the Saint’s Row games, but she couldn’t ban any of them even if she wanted to (and there’s nothing that proves she wants to ban anything anyway). She’s not a politician or a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, she’s an internet commentator.

Re: Bernie Sanders and Bern-Bros

I’m not fond of the meme either.

Admittedly, I do prefer Bernie Sanders over Hilary Clinton – but that has more to do with the fact Clinton has ties to a number of health insurance companies as contributors, which makes me suspect of how she’d handle the issue in office.

At the same time, however, I don’t want to jump on the hype-train and find myself disappointed when it comes to reality. People put a lot of high expectations on Obama as if he was the Second Coming of Christ, and all of them ended up disappointed when his policies led to a bail-out of corrupt financial institutions and we still have drones bombing Middle Eastern bystanders in a conflict almost everyone is regretful of getting involved with.

If he does end up as president – I’m not expecting a grand utopia to come about from it.

katz
5 years ago

So it’s not just me? I’ve been wondering how much of Sanders’ sudden popularity was driven by his politics and how much was driven by misogyny, brogressives who don’t want to vote Republican but can’t vote for a woman, but thought I was just reading too much into it. I’m not sure if I feel vindicated (I’m not paranoid!) or annoyed (fuck brogressives). Annoydicated?

The brogressives are the most noticeable, but even within the progressive mainstream, the dominant narratives about Clinton and her supporters have strong ties to sexist narratives, from the “coronation” narrative (because women get given things, they don’t earn things) to all the narratives that people only support Clinton because of pragmatism/apathy/ignorance/vaginas (because her mostly-female base can’t have made a decision for good reasons) to the fact that “first female president” isn’t part of the narrative at all.

These narratives can intermingle with totally reasonable ideas and can’t always be extricated. But I’d like more acknowledgement that they’re influencing the whole landscape of the election, even for the most feminist among us.

I know I’m acting like a total Hillary wonk but someone needs to talk about it.

NickNameNick
NickNameNick
5 years ago

@Katz

I still come across people who claim a woman shouldn’t be president because they’re “too emotional.”

Yeah, ’cause it isn’t like male politicians haven’t had angry outbursts or violently overreacted to anything ever…

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ panda

I take your points on board. I hope I did make clear that I wasn’t specifically addressing the US experience. The two points I perhaps should clarify though are that I did mention that our armed police (we do have them, just not all cops are armed) attended those 14,800 incidents but only fired twice and with no fatalities. I hope that was a valid point to make in highlight that there would seem to be an alternative to the US police way of dealing.

As to the Establishment thing and *Brit* cops (which is what EJ was referring to, not US) I can only speak from my own experience, that’s all any of us can do. I wouldn’t comment on US cops but I do think I can speak to my own experience with the caveats that I gave that it’s a personal view and I can’t speak for anyone else.

Oh, and I’m certainly not establishment 🙂 I may work for them occasionally but that’s a poacher/gamekeeper thing.

But anyway, this is a topic that’s probably not really at the heart of what we do here so I’ll save it for the more appropriate fora.

Oh, on this subject, I have been chatting to some of my US friends who, like I say you may like to get involved with. They do stuff all over the US so there’s probably an organisation near you if you fancy it. Any particular areas you’re particularly interested in? One group is dealing with the new Washington State legislation on gender issues which you might find interesting.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
5 years ago

@Alan

I’m a shut-in with horrible anxiety issues. It took me forever to figure out how to express how I felt about you talking so casually about police brutality on the internet, let alone face to face in a group of people talking about issues in real time. Thanks but no thanks.

contrapangloss
contrapangloss
5 years ago

So, I’m an American, but I kind of fell like I might not have much of a right to comment on the police issue. Also, I’m in Alaska, and things seem to not match the contiguous super well.

Our cops can still be problematic, but I see some good things regularly?

I don’t know.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ panda

No worries. You’re such an interesting person to chat to that I sometimes forget that perhaps people are having a hard time of things. I hope you don’t feel I’m patronising you if I say I admire your courage in dealing with issues with such passion and clarity, with all you’re going through. I’m also pretty desensitised to such things, as are the people I usually work with on such issues, so feel free to call me out anytime you feel I overstep the mark.

If you ever do feel up to getting involved on anything though let me know, a lot of the stuff is done over the net these days. The US is huge!

contrapangloss
contrapangloss
5 years ago

Alan, maybe try being a little more careful about pushing conversations?

It puts a lot of pressure on everyone else if they feel like they have to be responsible for letting you know when you’re stepping on their feet.

I’m totally cool with every once in a while letting you know when you get on my toes, but it would also be cool if you got in the habit of every once in a while checking in to make sure your feet aren’t on my feet (or anyone else’s feet for that matter).

Just practice checking in.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ contrapangloss

Duly noted. I hope I wasn’t pushing this one too much. Just responding to the bit about criminalising SWAT teams. It wasn’t so much a case of ‘this cannot go unchallenged!” but it’s the old personal experience thing.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
5 years ago

These narratives can intermingle with totally reasonable ideas and can’t always be extricated. But I’d like more acknowledgement that they’re influencing the whole landscape of the election, even for the most feminist among us.

Yes.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Which is funny, when I’m incredulous of their stories involving gangs of roving Dworkinites on university campuses

My favorite one of these is the feminist who yells at men for holding doors upon for them. I hear so many stories about these feminists on the internet. Only the internet. I’ve yet to meet a man out in meat space who’s made this claim. That’s the number one thing that makes me suspicious. I’ve certainly never witnessed it. Just because you don’t see something doesn’t mean it never happens, it’s true. But on the other hand, it’s a very implausible claim. Also, I’m a low stimulus screener. Besides events that are supposed to be noisy like concerts and sporting events, it bug the shit out of me when people are really loud in public. I would probably notice the phenomenon if it were real.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ WWTH

the feminist who yells at men for holding doors upon for them

I’ve been on a lot of campuses and I’ve lived in islington North London. I’ve got friends in social work. One of my friends *grew up* with her lesbian mum in the camp at Greenham Common. I’ve been in spaces where just about ever woman has those earrings with the circle and cross symbol on them. Cliche City, Arizona. I’ve held open quite a few doors; and I have never once had anyone say anything that wasn’t some variation on “thanks”.

NickNameNick
NickNameNick
5 years ago

@W.W.T.H.

That’s the number one thing that makes me suspicious. I’ve certainly never witnessed it. Just because you don’t see something doesn’t mean it never happens, it’s true. But on the other hand, it’s a very implausible claim.

Right. Like I said, I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt – but I stop doing so, once it stops being believable or highly suspect.

I’ve never heard a single woman complain about a man opening a door for them, probably due to the fact that’s just common courtesy. If someone is right behind you – you open the door and let them go ahead of you, regardless of who they are. The same way you’d help someone pick up something they’d drop, as that is what a decent human being would do.

Hate to keep being presumptuous, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this complaint came from the fact these guys weren’t given adulation for the act. To quote a character from Fairly OddParents: “you don’t do good things for recognition, you do them because they are good.”

guest
guest
5 years ago

‘It reminds me of a phenomenon during the Vietnam War where there were rumors of anti-war protesters spitting on returning soldiers’

Someone actually wrote a book about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spitting_Image

One thing I remember from reading it was the author considering how likely it would be that a weedy, stoned, out of shape hippie decides it’s a good idea to provoke a well-trained, trigger happy, stressed and completely unpredictable soldier.