Over in the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, one recent convert to the MGTOW philosophy admits that there is one thing about the females that’s really baffling.
Namely, why do any of them work, when they could just use their magic hoo-has to snag some poor dude and live off of him, lying on the couch watching Jerry Springer amidst a pile of bon-bon wrappers?
[H]ow does MGTOW explain working women? Why do women work low or pseudo status positions for employers that are primarily public facing? I feel like the women who work at Waffle House / Starbucks / whatever probably have a more consistently stressful time of things than I do working a STEM job, they’re paid less, and they’re burning SMV time working a plebian job.
Why do women work low and pseudo status positions like these? How does MGTOW explain women who opt in to these arrangements when they could likely bf/marry/B.D.Govt their way to a less stressful life?
In case you’re not intimately familiar with misogyny-speak, SMV stands for “Sexual Market Value,” which, these dudes believe, starts declining for women after they hit the ripe old age of 25 or so and start getting all old and ugly. And “B.D.Govt” means “Big Daddy Government,” always ready to help a girl out with some of that sweet, sweet welfare cash.
Happily, the subreddit’s regulars are more than willing to mansplain the puzzling fact of women having jobs.
A fellow called NormanDaNubcaek has a whole long list of reasons.
-They may have squandered their childhood/teen years, already putting them at a disadvantage to serious students
-They don’t want to put in the initial effort getting the proper training (Think instant vs delayed gratification)
-STEM actually requires critical thinking skills
-The job, while perhaps stressful, is regular and simple (more repetitive work vs less work that is more complex)
-Their jobs already have a lot of women, so they just join the pack, or other women recommend them to join
-They already have massive debt from a garbage degree and can’t afford to go back to school
-They used to be supported by a man, but now have to earn their own living until the next guy comes around.
Lostapwbm has a somewhat more detailed explanation, and one that is slightly more rooted in consensus reality, if not always in the rules of grammar.
“Poor women have always had to work,” he writes.
Housewife is typically a role that only the wife of a successful or frugal man, and feminism is a vanity project of rich white women.
So why can’t these Starbucks ladies “bf/marry their way out” of the working world? First, he explains, there’s the problem of man-access.
[T]hey don’t have access to a man of sufficiently higher economic status that she can go from working woman to housewife/lady of the house.
And then of course there is the problem of these women being such stuck up snooty you-know-whats that they can’t appreciate the perfectly decent men right there under their nose ISN’T THAT RIGHT KIMBERLY SOME DAY YOU’LL REALIZE I WAS THERE ALL ALONG WE WERE MEANT TO BE oh whoops.
A lot of women aren’t attracted to the type of man who would lift her out of her lower economic status. He’s boring/lame/has no game. He just wants to move up his job, pay his bills, and basically live a drama-free life.
Well, ok, but what about living off of Big Daddy G?
Women dependent on the government (B.D. Govt as you put it) are in that category of drama-lovers. Three kids by two guys, ex-boyfriends are drug addicts/dealers, whatever you prefer, but the takeaway is these women don’t want a less stressful life because they emotionally feed on that drama.
Wordjedi agrees that these Starbucks baristas are a bunch of stuck up rom-com lovers holding out for some imaginary perfect dude but ha ha the joke’s on them — if they sleep with too many Mr. Right-Nows while waiting for Mr. Right, they’ll get so burned out on dick that something something cats box of wine.
Yeah, I’m having a little trouble summarizing this one. You try:
Remember that women still flock to romcom movies in droves. They still really think mating is equal, that two people who were meant to be together tritely run together through a meadow and embrace.
Until she finds her perfect six figure hunk, a girl’s gotta have some random stiff dick in her now and then, right? Especially when she’s had a few drinks so has an excuse not to give a fuck? ====> hookup culture.
Unfortunately, people give less and less of an (emotional) fuck for each random hookup. Bye bye, perfect romance. She’s bored with dick by the time she meets him, if she ever does. ====> box wine + cats + Starbucks barista 4-evah
The explanaiton proffered by good_man_gone is if anything even less cogent. He starts out by suggesting that any women you see working just weren’t pretty enough to score themselves the high-quality beta bux.
“I never in my life have seen a perfect ten flipping burgers for 7$ /hour,” he declares, with an almost audible wink.
But then he goes on to suggest that almost any gal — even those who are perhaps not that pretty — can find a man dumb enough to marry her up or at least buy her a couple of drinks at closing time amirite fellas?
And still there is plenty of guys out there who will happily marry the 3s or 4s and give them money. Smv is key here. Better looks = more free stuff and money. But fugly chicks get free drinks too you know.
I have to admit I was guilty of that in the past. You know when the pub is about to close and u are hammered and suddenly your brain tells you “go ahead buy her a drink, yeah the fat small chick over there do it”
I guess the real lesson here is to never ask MGTOWs for an explanation of anything.
I like how this completely disproves most of their talking points, from THE WAGE GAP DON’T REAL to HYPERGAMY DO REAL, even if none of them realise it.
So given that men go to SF action movies in their droves, do they really think that giant alien robots transform into vehicles to hide on Earth? Do they really believe that there was a massive human and alien civilisation A Long Time Ago, In A Galaxy Far Far Away?
I was wondering about his job too. It’s a weird thing to say. Most people who work in STEM fields don’t talk about their “STEM jobs.” They mention their specific field. “I’m an engineer” or “I’m a microbiologist.” The wording here makes me think he is trying to make himself sound more important than he actually is.
Funny enough I would love to work if I could but I have been chronically ill since I was 3 1/2. I am now in my thirties living at home so I have good health insurance under my parents. Of course one of my health issues is just a silly woman disease that effects fertility so I am sure that probably effects my…um..SMV. And given the level of antisemitism I am guessing that also effects value?
Long time lurker who loves this page even if my blood pressure doesn’t always.
I honestly think that none of these MGTOW actually want to “go their own way”.
Their entire movement is just a “you’re gonna be sorry when I’m gone!!!!” parade, while under every breath they fantasize that some beautiful woman is going to show up on their doorstep as a reward for them being (what they imagine to be) a ‘good person’.
Seconding so many good comments, especially Ellesar. Yes, strange how women seem to act like individuals, like they all have their own circumstances!
But on a different topic, I think most women who like rom-coms like them because they realize life is not a fantasy, that love/relationships is hard and takes work, that there is no footloose romp through the field. Rom-coms are an escape.
I’m not a big fan of the genre, but there are certain iterations of it I like. Overall, I think people enjoy films that do not reflect real life because, unlike MGTOWs, who think that life must follow some kind of script and people are not individuals, it can be cathartic to watch fantasy. Same reason people like LARPing or role-playing games or Halloween/Carnival/Mardi Gras/Walt Disney World.
There’s a video on Youtube of a child of ~2 throwing a tantrum. Mom and dad move out of view of the kid. When the kid realizes his audience has disappeared he goes quiet, gets up, moves to where they can see him again and then throws himself back onto the floor and resumes his tantrum. They repeat this process 3 or 4 times throughout the video.
TL;DR there’s no point throwing a massive tantrum if nobody is around to see it.
Congratulations! You have discovered some of the negative effects of income inequality. You seem to have drawn some faulty conclusions though. Did you know that men with low socioeconomic status and educational attainment also work low paying and stressful jobs compared to educated and privileged white color professionals of any gender?
We’ll gender flip your observation and perhaps it will be become clear that drawing misogynistic conclusions was a wee bit silly.
Why don’t young men who’ve undoubtedly built up some pretty nice muscles doing menial labor just find some divorced lawyer or doctor cougar to shack up with? Or maybe join the military and try to get PTSD or service connected injuries and disabilities to live off the government for the rest of their lives? Why would lower income men work at all?
See know how you’re a big fail?
Wait a minute. I thought that because of ebil feminism, girls do better in school and boys are oppressed and ignored? Now I find out that girls aren’t serious students? What’s going on!?
Also, how do they know that their Waffle House server or Starbucks barista isn’t working there while they are going to school? How do they know they aren’t recent grads making ends meet while they pursue employment in their fields?
I don’t think someone who believes all young women are capable of getting a rich sugar daddy or thinks that living on welfare is easy and prosperous is overburdened with an abundance of critical thinking skills. Being able to code or do math equations does not make one an expert in every aspect of life.
Plus, given the tendency of manurespherians to exaggerate their accomplishments, “working in STEM” may very well mean that he sells computers at Best Buy or something. Not there’s anything wrong with that. I’m just saying, let’s not assume this MGTOWer is the next Stephen Hawking or Bill Gates.
Okay, manly STEM lord. What is your evidence that women are more prone to groupthink than men? Please cite your sources. Because I hear this a lot in the manosphere. That women are followers and men are independent thinkers. Yet this never seems to be supported by anything but highly suspect internet anecdata.
Oh yes. There it is. My favorite right wing goalpost shift. This one has been showing up a lot in the past decade. First the talking point was that one deserves to be in poverty if they don’t have a job. But when wages stopped growing relative to inflation, productivity, and cost of living and it became clear that a lot of poor people do have jobs, the talking point changed. The talking point was that if you didn’t go to college, you deserved to live in poverty and toil at a shitty job. Then the great recession happened. People started to notice that a lot of people have college degrees and are still poor because of student loan debt and the lack of enough white collar professional jobs to go around. So now, the talking point is that anyone who didn’t get a degree in whatever we’re told is the current degree you should have (used to be law or business now it’s STEM) deserves to live in poverty and toil at a shitty job.
Those goalposts just keep shifting. This little rant of mine was sort off topic to the misogyny, but whatever. Or maybe not so off topic since STEM is notoriously hostile to women.
This little bit is actually true. Unless we want to go to a system of polygyny where rich men have multiple wives and poor man have no hope of ever getting into a long term relationship, then no, every woman can’t become the housewife to an upper income man. Despite the manospherian obsession with hypergamy, people tend to marry within their own class.
But I thought we were all hypergamous gold digging bitches? No? Today we’re sluts who sleep with thugs? Okay.
This actually untrue. Romcoms have actually been struggling at the box office the last several years. It turns out a lot of women don’t like being pandered to. I know I’d rather go to a horror movie than a romcom any day.
But men* do flock to superhero movies in droves. I guess all men must be hoping to gain superpowers one day and are holding out for Scarlet Johansson or Natalie Portman until then. Because people are utterly incapable of separating fact from fiction.
And what’s wrong with box wine and cats? Both of those are good things. Far better than dating or *shudder* fucking some MGTOW asshat.
Yeah, it’s almost like economically privileged people have more time and money to devote to fashion, beauty products, gym memberships, and health food. Who knew?
* Of course, women go to those movies in droves too. I’m sure that’s evil in some way.
@ moocow
MGTOW – less a movement, more a flounce.
A long slow flounce.
Going now.
You’ll be sorry.
Going any minute now.
You sorry yet?
It’s funny how guys who try to apply an ‘economics’ model to every aspect of human interaction don’t understand actual economics.
Let’s help them out:
1. People need to earn money to exchange for goods or services..
Ah right, women aren’t ‘people’. I can see where this breaks down.
Maybe they believe that women think that real-life is like a rom com because they actually believe that Megan Fox look-a-likes just fall into the lap of geeky teens and fall in love with them through their ability to deal with all the evils that the story throws at them. Standard story trope that I think Anita Sarkeesian addressed. And those stories are very common in children’s movies, so they learn young. Most girls outgrow Cinderella by age 8.
What do they think it means that many of the women I know can’t wait for Deadpool to come out or that I’ll pick a bad horror over a good romcom?
I’m caught up on Hannibal, but I don’t live my life wanting to play cat and mouse with a cannibal.
They know how fiction works, right?
Uh oh, did one of the MGTOWs attempt to flirt with a Waffle House waitress and get rebuffed?
First of all, women don’t “opt in” to working class jobs. If they’re working, it’s out of necessity. Many of those “low status” workers are in fact married or in LTRs, and they’re trying to pay for increasingly unaffordable mortgages, retirement, higher education, child care, and food. (It’s amazing how he’s psychic and knows all these women are single).
It is true that there’s only so many rich/high achieving dudes to go around, and these days they tend to marry other rich/high achieving women and form power couples. Maybe in the 1950s it wasn’t uncommon for a doctor to marry a nurse or a CEO to marry his secretary, but nowadays wealth is much more likely to stay confined to the same social strata.
If all that’s available to working class women now are MGTOW dregs, as these guys seem to (condescendingly) think, and they’re mystified as to why women aren’t throwing themselves at them in droves, well…guess what, guys? Obviously, being with you is worse than slinging hash for minimum wage.
@ buttercup
I’m always loath to speculate about things like motive in the absence of evidence; but that has a certain ‘ring of plausibility’ about it as we say in the legal trade.
This actually sounds more like a description of Roosh and Heartiste. Lots and lots of meaningless bedpost notches with zero emotional attachment, followed by boredom with the opposite sex. Then there’s an existential crisis at 40 when they realize they can’t be Nightclub Bang Guy anymore, but they’re too emotionally damaged and creepy to be an attractive proposition for marriage (not to mention much older than their target age range). Then they either become reactionary neo-Nazis and rail against the degeneracy of a civilization and a gene pool that are moving on without them, or else they find religion and join a dominionist church that promotes male authority and the pairing off of young virginal women with older dudes.
It’s a common manosphere fairy tale, but the Alpha Cock Carousel and “the wall” are really a projection of their own fears.
…Oh where to start with this one. I’m one of the women dependant on “big daddy government” and I’m not here because I’m an addict, I’m here because my body betrayed me, but that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms. Then fugly girls still get drinks… um… I remember getting beat up and laughed at more than I EVER got free drinks, but yes, let the mgtow think he knows whats up =___=
“STEM actually requires critical thinking skills”
Given the weird belief systems I’ve seen among engineers, I don’t think so.
I’ve worked all my life — and thank goodness for that, because there’s a pension waiting for me next year (I could even take it now, if I wanted to). There are lots of reasons to work even if your partner is making good money.
Those MGTOW claim to be soooo scientific, intelligent, and the best critical thinkers evah, yet they fail–without exaggeration–everything.
More pertinent to the women, marriage and economic disscusion: the older and some newer research points to these trends.
1. Women tend to marry “up” their economic level.
2. Marital and general happiness is independent of income level.
3. People in the upper middle-class and higher often delay marriage by five to ten years, sometimes even longer.
4. Likewise, poorer people tend to get married right away. One major factor into a quick marriage is an unexpected pregnancy.
5. Financial stress is the leading cause of divorce. Rates are higher for upper middle-class suddenly losing their money, and/or at least one spouse is on welfare.
I’ll have to find some of the newer papers, so I can post other findings on things like specific jobs. A lot that I’ve mentioned is common sense. Not surprising that MGTOW drastically misinterpret this.
Note that I specifically wrote tend to. There are obvious exceptions. 😉
Occasional lurker, first-time commenter.
One thing that has oft puzzled me about the MGTOW “movement”:
While taking time off from relationships to focus on your own goals and development is not a bad thing in and of itself — even admirable, perhaps, so the other person in the relationship doesn’t get forced into the noncoveted role of “Afterthought No. 1” — why the need to tell everyone you’re doing it?
I suppose, were I to hazard a guess, is that the typical MGHOW is afraid no one will ask why such a catch isn’t dating. Hence, the pre-emptive notification.
Is men buying random women drinks even that much of a thing? I think it’s happened to me only a handful of times. I don’t notice other women having free drinks sent to them all the time either. Of course, people I know have bought me drinks. But I’ve bought drinks for people I know before too. I must be womaning wrong.
Is men buying random women drinks even that much of a thing? I think it’s happened to me only a handful of times. I don’t notice other women having free drinks sent to them all the time either. Of course, people I know have bought me drinks. But I’ve bought drinks for people I know before too. I must be womaning wrong.
Besides, it’s not very flattering to have some drunk bozo come up to you and try to ply you with more alcohol just because he wants a hole to stick his dick in. I don’t see it as much of a privilege.
Not sure why the double post happened.
Why do all MGTOW speak this incomprehensible, idiotic pseudo-language? Because from what I can sift out of this word soup, this dickweed is kvetching about “Oh, why won’t these bitches marry me instead of working their boring-ass joe jobs?”
Dude, take a hint: It’s because you’re not speaking English, or any other intelligible language known to woman. And guys who gibber like you — arrogant and ignorant simultaneously — are probably WHY they’d rather work a shit job than marry. Believe it or not, customers’ shit is easier to put up with, because then she’s not stuck in the same house with it 24/7/365. Stop repulsing women with your nonsensical ramblings, get that chip off your shoulder, and grow the fuck up. Maybe then maybe one might want to marry you.
(‘Course, given the shit economy, she’ll probably STILL decide to work, because love won’t get the loan shark off your back. And because if you ever go sour on her again, she’s gonna need a fuck-off fund to help her get away.)
@ buttercup
This. I will eat my neighbor if there has at some point existed or will at a future time exist a woman who has become anywhere near as incapable of healthy relationships with the opposite sex as Roosh and Roissy are by having fun and mutually satisfying casual sex with multiple men.
It’s more the part where you have contempt for your partners and cynically manipulate them that makes you hate everyone and turn out unfit for any kind of relationship. That’s not particularly common among women as far as I know. At least they don’t have a subculture devoted to it.