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Richard Dawkins, Lindy West, and the Cartoon Video of Great Hatefulness

Is Richard Dawkins using his bully pulpit to bully feminists?
Is Richard Dawkins using his bully pulpit to bully feminists?

Almost three years ago, a feminist activist committed what many not-so-impartial observers apparently see as an unpardonable sin: she was less than polite to a small squad of Men’s Rights activists at a demonstration in Toronto. At least one of these gentlemen caught her outburst on video, and uploaded it to YouTube.

You know the rest: the video went viral, and the activist, a red-headed woman known as Chanty Binx (or “Big Red,” to the douchebag army), found herself suddenly transformed into “The Posterchild of Everything Wrong with Feminism,” as one of her haters put it. Her face has become ubiquitous in antifeminist memes, and she’s endured nearly three years of harassment.

Earlier this month, antifeminist YouTuber Sargon of Akkad — who makes his living pandering to some of the internet’s worst lady haters — posted an animated video by another antifeminist YouTuber in which an angry Islamist and an angry feminist sing a song explaining that they pretty much believe all the same things. (For some reason, this nonsensical theory is something that a lot of antifeminists have convinced themselves is true.)

The angry Islamist in the video is a familiar racist stereotype, complete with “funny” accent. [Correction: He’s evidently supposed to be a parody of this guy, known as Dawah Man, a legitimately terrible person you wouldn’t think atheists would have to strawman in order to criticize..]

The angry feminist, meanwhile, isn’t a generic figure; she’s an especially crude caricature of Binx, spouting nonsense that neither Binx nor any other feminist actually believes: the video ends with her encouraging the Islamist to rape her, because it’s not really rape if a Muslim does it, dontchaknow.

It’s a vicious, hateful little cartoon made worse by the fact that these words are being put in the mouth of a real woman who’s been the target of a vast harassment campaign for years.

Yesterday, Richard Dawkins, apparently seeing this horrendous video as a clever takedown of some brand of feminism that he must think actually exists, shared it with his 1.3 million Twitter followers:

Dawkins-tweet

Dawkins, a well-respected scientist-turned-embarrassing-atheist-ideologue, has become notorious for his endless Twitter gaffes. But this is plainly worse than, say, his famously pathetic lament about airport security “dundridges” taking his jar of honey; his Tweet contributed to the demonization of a real woman who’s already the target of harassment and threats.

The awesome Lindy West pointed this out to him in a series of Tweets and linked to one of my posts cataloging some of the abuse Binx got after the video of her went viral.

In a series of eloquent and angry Tweets, she made clear to Dawkins how and why he was misusing his huge platform and contributing to an atmosphere of hate online. Dawkins, alternately indignant and defensive, ultimately took down the offending Tweet, but not before making other Tweets that were nearly as bad. Dawkins can’t even do the right thing without being a dick about it.

Let’s watch Lindy at work:

 

Lindy West ‏@thelindywest like literally what is wrong with you @RichardDawkins RETWEETS 47 LIKES 337 Lamentation Smythethank god it's overMargaret PlessAllison ElaineRachyAlice Pinegabs ❁GORILLA SUITNINA 5:19 PM - 26 Jan 2016 Reply Retweet Liked More Tweet text Reply to @thelindywest @RichardDawkins Who's in these photos? Lindy West ‏@thelindywest Jan 26 the complete ideological horror show aside, that is a caricature of an actual real woman and you are feeding her harassment @RichardDawkins

Richard Dawkins ‏@RichardDawkins 7h7 hours ago @thelindywest I didn't know that. Who is the real woman? 1 retweet 5 likes Reply Retweet 1 Like 5 More View other replies Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago Here: https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2013/04/15/canadian-feminist-activist-receives-death-threats-and-other-abuse-after-being-targeted-by-mens-rights-activists/ … @RichardDawkins View summary 16 retweets 55 likes Reply Retweet 16 Liked 55 More View other replies Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago It would serve you well to research the people & movements whose support you accept & whose propaganda you disseminate. @RichardDawkins

Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago One might even argue that it's a basic responsibility concomitant with wielding such a large and powerful platform. @RichardDawkins 21 retweets 114 likes Reply Retweet 21 Liked 114 More View other replies Show more Zoë “Shitpost” Quinn ‏@UnburntWitch 7h7 hours ago @thelindywest @RichardDawkins oh good he's promoting a guy who built a career off of stalking and harassing me and my family 19 retweets 86 likes Reply Retweet 19 Like 86 More View other replies Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago Richard, this is not a thought experiment for us. It's not an ideological pissing match. @UnburntWitch @RichardDawkins

Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago It is a constant, violent, unprovoked, psychologically damaging barrier to full engagement with the world. @UnburntWitch @RichardDawkins 21 retweets 83 likes Reply Retweet 21 Liked 83 More View other replies Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago You make yourself complicit in that system by validating and amplifying the voices of our harassers. @UnburntWitch @RichardDawkins 22 retweets 100 likes Reply Retweet 22 Liked 100 More View other replies Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago Please stop, or at least do so with full knowledge of the scope, history, and implications of your actions. @UnburntWitch @RichardDawkins

After what was apparently an unsatisfactory response from Dawkins — I couldn’t find his Tweet, if there was one — West repeated and expanded upon her basic points. [EDIT: The unsastisfactory respose, West tells me, was that Dawkins posted a link to one of the videos of Chanty Binx at the Toronto demonstration.]

Lindy West ‏@thelindywest If this is your response, please go on record, explicitly, that you believe women you dislike deserve rape & death threats. @RichardDawkins

Well, that got his attention:

Richard Dawkins ‏@RichardDawkins 7h7 hours ago @thelindywest What the hell are you talking about. When have I ever said any such thing? 7 retweets 34 likes Reply Retweet 7 Like 34 More View other replies Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago Did you read the link that I sent? Posting this video implies an endorsement of her abuse (and will definitely amplify it). @RichardDawkins 9 retweets 71 likes Reply Retweet 9 Liked 71 More View other replies Richard Dawkins ‏@RichardDawkins 7h7 hours ago @thelindywest No. What link? Somebody told me who she was. I was about to delete my original tweet. Then I looked up the Toronto vid . . .

Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago I sent you a series of tweets. Feel free to read them in my TL. Here is the link again: https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2013/04/15/canadian-feminist-activist-receives-death-threats-and-other-abuse-after-being-targeted-by-mens-rights-activists/ … @RichardDawkins View summary 16 retweets 67 likes Reply Retweet 16 Liked 67 More View other replies Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago Then you looked up the Toronto vid and...felt like that woman deserved what she got? That's exactlly what I'm talking about. @RichardDawkins 7 retweets 77 likes Reply Retweet 7 Liked 77 More View other replies Richard Dawkins ‏@RichardDawkins 7h7 hours ago @thelindywest I think she deserves nothing more than ridicule. I would never shriek "Fuckface" at her. But I would laugh at her. Ridicule.

So there you have it: when informed that a tweet of his will almost certainly worsen the vicious harassment faced by a young woman whose only “crime” was being rude to a couple of MRAs in public, Richard Dawkins, a one-time winner of  the American Humanist Association’s Humanist of the Year Award, replies by saying that “she deserves nothing more than ridicule.”

West replied:

Lindy West ‏@thelindywest Please don't insult me by pretending you don't comprehend the gravity and scope of this conversation and your complicity. @RichardDawkins

Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago Great. Good job. If you leave those links up you are fomenting further abuse, and that's a choice you should own. @RichardDawkins

Dawkins then decided to suggest that perhaps Binx was, you know, crazy:

Richard Dawkins ‏@RichardDawkins 7h7 hours ago @FulcrumAmber @thelindywest Perhaps mentally ill, to be charitable. Anyway it's disgraceful that she's apparently received violent threats. 1 retweet 8 likes Reply Retweet 1 Like 8 More Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago First of all, mentally ill people are fully capable of holding and expressing valid, well-considered, justified opinions. @RichardDawkins 48 retweets 214 likes Reply Retweet 48 Like 214 More Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago 2nd of all, you know nothing of this woman's mental state but her anger. Armchair diagnoses are presumptuous and insulting. @RichardDawkins 37 retweets 159 likes Reply Retweet 37 Like 159 More Lindy West ‏@thelindywest 7h7 hours ago And thirdly, it's exactly this spectrum of misogyny--dismissiveness to outright abuse--that feminists are angry about. @RichardDawkins

Dawkins ultimately agreed to take down his Tweet linking to the execrable video. But he offered no apology. And he went on to suggest that just maybe Binx had … threatened herself.

Richard Dawkins ‏@RichardDawkins 7h7 hours ago Having learned that the woman in the joke song is a real person who has been disgracefully threatened with violence, I'm deleting my tweets. 65 retweets 436 likes Reply Retweet 65 Like 436 More Richard Dawkins ‏@RichardDawkins 5h5 hours ago Maybe I'm naive. Can't believe anyone's as nasty as her. Nor that anyone would threaten her. Nor that anyone'd lie about being threatened.

User Actions Follow Richard DawkinsVerified account ‏@RichardDawkins Richard Dawkins Retweeted Boltzmann Is this really true? How depressing. But it would explain a lot. Richard Dawkins added, Boltzmann @NameIsBoltzmann @RichardDawkins People lie about being threatened all the time these days. Some have gotten caught threatening themselves.

We’ve seen this, er, argument before.

sharkethics

Does Dawkins have any conception of just how much abuse women like Chanty Binx get? If she were sending herself all the threatening and harassing messages she gets, she wouldn’t have time to eat or sleep.

And I wonder if Dawkins thinks she drew the caricature of herself that was used in the video he retweeted.

Thoughtful as ever, Dawkins made sure to remind his 1.3 million followers that Binx still deserved all the mockery they could deliver. Just not the death threats please!

Richard Dawkins ‏@RichardDawkins 8h8 hours ago @YourSluttyGF Yes, she deserves abundant mockery, the more the merrier. But she doesn't deserve violent threats. Nobody does.Richard DawkinsVerified account ‏@RichardDawkins @cleanpulse @YourSluttyGF I don't feel the smallest bit guilty. She deserves mockery. But if there's a risk of inspiring violence, NO NO NO!And he begged his readers to think about the real victims here — those people, like him, who might have to curtail their mockery somewhat because their terrible, terrible fans might be inspired to hurt someone.

Richard DawkinsVerified account ‏@RichardDawkins PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't EVER threaten anyone with violence. We should be free to use comedy/ridicule without fear it may inspire violence

RIP, Richard Dawkins’ comedy career.

Is Dawkins actually unaware that by punching down at a woman who’s already been the target of a three year harassment campaign he almost certainly is contributing to the threats he claims to deplore? It’s hard for me to believe that he could be so naive. But the alternative explanation — that he knows full well that he’s encouraging the harassers — is even more disquieting.

One good thing has come out of this ugly episode today: The Northeast Conference on Science & Skepticism has un-invited Dawkins from its event this year. A post on the group’s website today explains:

The Northeast Conference on Science & Skepticism has withdrawn its invitation to Richard Dawkins to participate at NECSS 2016. We have taken this action in response to Dr. Dawkins’ approving re-tweet of a highly offensive video.

We believe strongly in freedom of speech and freedom to express unpopular, and even offensive, views. However, unnecessarily divisive, counterproductive, and even hateful speech runs contrary to our mission and the environment we wish to foster at NECSS. The sentiments expressed in the video do not represent the values of NECSS or its sponsoring organizations.

We will issue a full refund to any NECSS attendee who wishes to cancel their registration due to this announcement.

The NECSS Team

Good for them. The atheist movement needs to stand up to the haters and harassers in its midst, including those like Dawkins, who may not directly harass or threaten but who use their huge platforms to amplify and embolden this hatred and harassment.

It would be nice if Dawkins were to actually learn something — a little humanity, a little humility? — from this incident, but when it comes to the subject of feminism Dawkins seems incapable of taking in new information, much less learning anything from it.

EDITED TO ADD: And now, as if to prov what I just said in that previous paragraph, Dawkins is now second-guessing his decision to take down his tweet linking to the video, because GamerGaters are telling him that Chanty and I made up the evidence of the abuse she got.

dawktakeback

NOTE: Lindy West has a book coming out soon. Pre-order it below!

CORRECTION: I added  a bit noting that the Islamist in the cartoon video is supposed to be a parody of a real person.

EDIT: I added a line about Dawkins tweeting a link to a video of Chanty Binx at the Toronto demonstration.

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Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
8 years ago

I do wish Dawkins would end up on an interview with someone who would ask him to spout off about the doctrine of papal infallibilty, let him go on about its idiocy for a while, and then follows up by asking him why he thinks he’s infallible. The sputtering could be amusing.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
8 years ago

You know what’s amusing… Reading through threads from all the way back in ’11/’12, God knows how many comment policies and user turnovers ago, and watching them be derailed by accusations of cliquishness. Word for word. Nothing’s changed. Why, it’s almost as if it doesn’t matter how much we prostrate ourselves before our superiors change our behaviour to suit $TrollOfTheDay’s demands, their real goal is to distract us with infighting and the snipers are being played like fiddles…

But what do I know, I’m just a meanie-meanie clique-pants.

http://i.imgur.com/R3YV5Tu.jpg

Scildfreja
Scildfreja
8 years ago

You’re so clickey-pants
comment image

(My goodness, could those guyse look more MRAey?)

weirwoodtreehugger
8 years ago

Feminists are mean and cliquish. It’s true.

comment image

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
8 years ago

@Schildfreja:

Considering how they treat “their women” (all two of them)? I doubt it.

dhag85
dhag85
8 years ago

It always surprises me to see how some adults are so prone to hero worshipping. I naturally assume people would be smart enough not to place anybody above criticism, but this is clearly overestimating humanity.

Case in point: In 2010 I went to a Dawkins lecture/book promotion at Cooper Union in New York. During the Q&A, Dawkins got a question from a woman who he recognized. Before he answered her question, he said: “Do you, by any chance, go by the name [internet pseudonym redacted]?” The woman said yes, and seemed very excited that he recognized her. I assumed she was a particularly active member on his website or message boards or whatever.

While going through Dawkins tweets and replies these last few days, I’ve noticed this woman is still there. Following every tweet, agreeing with every word, mocking whomever Dicky mocks. I repeat, this is an adult human being behaving like this.

I just can’t relate to this behavior at all. Even if there was a public figure who I liked as much as this person seems to like Dawkins, I wouldn’t trace their every step and agree with every word. Why do people do this.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
8 years ago

@ scildfreja

Now that I’ve seen your pic I’ve got that bloody Zutons song stuck in my head!

NickNameNick
NickNameNick
8 years ago

It always surprises me to see how some adults are so prone to hero worshipping. I naturally assume people would be smart enough not to place anybody above criticism, but this is clearly overestimating humanity.

It’s easily one of the most detrimental habits we have as a species – deifying certain people to the point where criticism is equated with personal attack, promoting ostracization and harassment of said critic for completely unjust reasons.

I notice it with comedians these days. Apparently to their fans – just pointing out that they told a tasteless joke, whether it is lazily sexist or racist, must mean you are calling them a sexist or racist (which is weirdly over-sensitive, from people who complain about others being over-sensitive). They accuse you of trying to “censor” them (um, how?) and use FREEZE PEACH as some kind of everything-proof shield. Not realizing the irony that free speech involves criticism and mockery, but that they’re more than content when their oh-so-favorite comedian is criticizing and mocking others.

It’s like Papal Infallibility, but infinitely more stupid.

I just can’t relate to this behavior at all. Even if there was a public figure who I liked as much as this person seems to like Dawkins, I wouldn’t trace their every step and agree with every word. Why do people do this.

That’s because, unlike many, you realize people whose work or achievements you admire are still people – thus, they are bound to disappoint and lose your respect.

At least with fictional characters, you can actually have that paragon of virtue and not deal with inevitability that they’re actually terrible people. For all the flaws he has as a character, which are minor in comparison to many real-life individuals, I can look up to Captain Jean-Luc Picard when it comes to his words of wisdom.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
8 years ago

Here are details of some of the discussions about dog piling and bullying that took place in this thread. There’s lots of strawmen including the accusation that this is about cliquishness. No. It’s about bullying.

katz
January 28, 2016 at 10:07 pm

As a group that chose each other, and especially as a group with a worthwhile political philosophy, who wants to spread that philosophy, I would like to see you all be more welcoming of outsiders.

We need to find a way to monetize “people who don’t hang out here telling us how we should act.”

IN51P1D
January 28, 2016 at 10:34 pm

No one here is “bullying” you.

I think the guy who made fun of my “fee fees” qualifies.

I’m so sick of hearing this bullshit of “you should be complacent and smile and be nice to people or else they won’t listen to you!”, when it’s so painfully obvious that other people aren’t going to listen to me anyways!

I think you’ve gotten burnt out on MRAs and twitter trolls and whatnot, and your default position is “attack mode”. In this post you accuse me of telling you to stop talking about sexism…I would never do that. I was trying to have a dialogue, and I’ve never tried to stifle anyone’s speech. I’m only asking you to consider the effect your words have on others. You may not think I’ve been bullied here or made unwelcome, but the fact is that’s how I feel, and I think that’s valid.

weirwoodtreehugger
January 28, 2016 at 11:17 pm
IN51P1D,
Calling people here bullies is going too far.

Paradoxical Intention
January 28, 2016 at 11:44 pm
As for the “Oppression Olympics” stuff: I will say in my defense that the only reason I brought it up is because the sealion tried to compare being an atheist with say, being murdered for being trans, so it did get my hackles up a bit.

IN51P1D
January 29, 2016 at 12:02 am
I never, ever, ever, ever, EVER said anything even remotely like that. I’m disgusted that would even suggest it. I hate myself for posting here again, but what you’re saying is gross and false, and someone needs to open your eyes to that.

Paradoxical Intention
January 29, 2016 at 12:42 am
If you don’t like posting here, then please do fuck off. I’m tired of your bullshit already. […] Leave. No one is holding your sorry ass here but you.

rugbyyogi
January 29, 2016 at 3:50 am
Gotta say, this thread is an example of NOT embracing the new rules about not bullying people and dogpiling and maintaining civil discourse.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
January 29, 2016 at 4:01 am
Oh God, is it time for The RugbyYogi Show again? Ugh, I’m changing the channel.

(Short version for lurkers: RugbyYogi is pretty vocal about her disdain for the anti-ableism rules and has a long history of completely derailing threads in the name of her right to freeze peach call MRAs “Crazy.” Which is what her last sentence was snidely referring to. And after six months or so of this shit, I’m allowed to be snarky right out the gate. =P)

rugbyyogi
January 29, 2016 at 5:05 am
Yep and I think the reaction to my post is exactly what I’m talking about. The anti-bullying, dogpiling is now just as much the rules as using words like ‘crazy’. But simply saying that and suggesting that the spirit of that commenting policy isn’t being embraced is enough to be treated in the same manner.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
January 29, 2016 at 1:08 pm

The rule against “dogpiling” is useless or actively unhelpful because it appears there is no consensus among regulars what dogpiling is or how to recognize it. I have emailed David asking him to clarify what he means by the word, with no response.

That’s because the rule was demanded and effectively written by the “YOU’RE ALL MEAN” snipe trolls and most of them were never seen again.

katz
January 29, 2016 at 1:58 pm
TL;DR: “Dogpiling” is just what happens when you express one opinion in front of a bunch of people who hold a different opinion and they shouldn’t all be forbidden from contributing just to make you feel comfortable.

Auntie Alias
January 29, 2016 at 2:35 pm
Disagreement is one thing but when it’s delivered with contempt, insults or name-calling, that’s when it’s a problem. That’s what dogpiles look like and why I continue to denounce them.

Orion
January 29, 2016 at 3:06 pm
Katz,

Agreed; right now dogpiling is only invoked by outright trolls or people who are definitely not going to fit in, so I wouldn’t be sad to see the rule deleted and replaced with nothing.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
February 1, 2016 at 5:09 pm
You know what’s amusing… Reading through threads from all the way back in ’11/’12, God knows how many comment policies and user turnovers ago, and watching them be derailed by accusations of cliquishness. Word for word. Nothing’s changed. Why, it’s almost as if it doesn’t matter how much we prostrate ourselves before our superiors change our behaviour to suit $TrollOfTheDay’s demands, their real goal is to distract us with infighting and the snipers are being played like fiddles…

marinerachel
marinerachel
8 years ago

To be fair, cliquishness and bullying can very easily be associated. Cliquishness isn’t inherently bully-ish though. It’s inherently exclusionary. It’s often closed-minded, sometimes bullying but not necessarily either.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
8 years ago

@marinerachel

Cliquishness certainly enables bullying but by no stretch of the imagination were complaints about cliquishness responsible for “derailing” the thread. Neither were complaints about dogpiling and bullying for that matter. Most people ignored that conversation (which is fine). The debate about atheist identity accounted for most of the posts.

marinerachel
marinerachel
8 years ago

Oh, I agree. I didn’t see complaints about cliquishness prompting any derail! I can see how someone might argue complaints about abusive behaviour are about cliquishness though.

arash
arash
8 years ago

sorry guys and gals i was a bit busy
@Scildfreja

Saying “Science has some bias in it” is like saying “The ocean has some water in it”. It’s made of bias. And yes, I mean that with its full implications – it is composed of an enormous aggregation of biases.

well if you insist then i shall say there is a planet of unbiased knowledge where this Ocean exists.
and if you don’t agree with me, then i assume that you don’t believe science is superior to many unscientific knowledges regarding bias, which is a very interesting stance for a scientist.

. Bias within the population will bias the conclusion.

i agree definitely with this

THIS is why more women and PoC are needed in the STEM fields

and not entirely agree with this, because i believe women and people of color are denied some opportunities which they deserve, and this is why there should be more of them.also including more non-white male scientists can decrease bias in science, it won’t necessary happen, why?!because for example we know that many women hold bias against women too.

Science is based on the eradication of bias through the introduction of conflicting opinions

How does science eradicate bias?

no, also this is helpful what truly can erase bias is staying true to scientific method and this is where many scientists fail(to different degrees)
if”introduction of conflicting opinions”could eradicate bias, politics would be free of bias long ago.

The face of science for all humanity must look like all humanity, or its conclusions will be wrong.

first even if science included all humanity and even if bias was totally eradicated, some of its conclusions would be inevitably wrong(because of flaw in our sensory data perception and processing)
and second all humans have bias, and even if they had totally conflicting biases, it wouldn’t guarantee bias free science.

so rather than increasing the number of non-white male scientists(which is a good thing) and hoping for the best! what can significantly reduce bias in science is more loyalty toward scientific method, be it woman / man / POC.

marinerachel
marinerachel
8 years ago

Uh, yeah, science is a tool kit. It’s a method of inquiry. It can’t have a bias. It’s not a person.

Results can be presented in a bias fashion. If the rigourous standards of the scientific method are upheld though, nope, no bias. That’s the whole point of those rules.

It’s not science that’s bias. Science is impartial. People are bias. People use science. As a result, the way scientific finding are understood and/or presented can be bias.

Not science though. It’s just a means of exploration.

STEM having a more diverse face won’t result in less bias as it will still be performed by people. It will result in more biases though which, hopefully, challenge and maybe balance each other a bit better than the biases of a bunch of white dudes currently do.

I’m a scientist.

arash
arash
8 years ago

@Tessa

But you also shouldn’t be surprised if people say “How do you know? Are you a doctor? Who made you arbiter of who’s dying? How’d you even get into my home??”

interesting point but the purpose of this argument is to show that even if i disagree(it’s not about knowing) about “how bad” is her condition, i’m
still saying that her condition is bad and she needs help.

i said this because she assumed(as you can see) if i disagree about severity of this matter then i think it isn’t bad or necessary acting against it.

Saying “sure, there’s bias, but it’s not like they have no say” is … I’m not sure what it’s saying. What’s your conclusion to that? What’s the “therefore”? Therefore we shouldn’t worry about feminism in science? Therefore we shouldn’t call out harmful statements from prominent scientists when we encounter them? What’s your conclusion?

arash
arash
8 years ago

The mildly sick thing is a funny analogy considering how big of a problem sexism is in medicine

i was talking about science as a whole and not just “medicine” and if you think that our present science is not mildly sick and it’s akin a “dying person” then there would be no word for past science…oh wait maybe it should be called a “ghost”…hmm nope i don’t believe in paranormal 😀

It’s a problem in research because both animal and human research is usually done with male subjects. It’s a problem in patient care because doctors take female pain less seriously than male pain. If Arash was a doctor, I bet you anything he would be dismissive of the symptoms female patients self report.

Women die of heart attacks because their symptoms present differently than in men and doctors often dismiss those symptoms as mild illness or a mental health issue.

i wasn’t aware of this, thanks.would you please provide me with some references for further reading?

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
8 years ago

Oh, the sealion is still here?

Arash,
My statements are both fairly common knowledge and very easily Googled. I’m not doing it for you.

This is very typical white guy science. Demanding feminists do your work for you.

Seriously. If you’re going to present yourself as Mr Science Rational Man, shouldn’t you already know that most research in medicine and often biology is carried out with male subjects? I knew that as a first year undergrad studying one of the dreaded soft sciences.

arash
arash
8 years ago

@Scildfreja

I guess Arash won’t be answering me. That’s a shame

The darkest hour is just before the dawn.

arash, I asked you “how does science eradicate bias” because the majority of people think that it’s up to an individual scientist to discipline themselves into thinking objectively and that’s it. This is wrong, because the idea of a person eradicating their bias is flawed – that’s impossible. Brains are biased, in their very structure. You can no more get rid of your bias than you can remove your brain – your bias is you.
Science erases bias by generating and comparing diverse perspectives. The hope is that, by collecting a large enough diversity, we can average-out the worst of the biases to get a generalized “biased towards what the human brain perceives”.

staying true to scientific method is a task for “both individual scientist and scientific community”. otherwise what good is in scientific method if it can’t decrease bias in neither of them!
and if conflicts of biases and “diversity” was the primary force at work in science, then we could toss aside scientific method and hallelujah! we would be reaching the doors of “not very biased knowledge”

actually the only difference between science and other spheres of human knowledge is the scientific method and not “achieving diversity and conflicting biases”.

This is why science needs women, and PoC, and the poor. This is why science needs feminism. Not just “for the wimmens”, but for science to come to better, more clear, more objective positions.

so yes science needs them but what is needs even more is activity protecting and promoting scientific method.

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
8 years ago

I’m not seeing why putting effort into making scientific fields more diverse and getting rid of endemic sexism and racism means we might as well just throw the scientific method out the window. They’re not mutually exclusive.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
8 years ago

Shut up, Jock Itch.

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
8 years ago

I’m also not sure what sealion is even arguing anymore.

If he can show that the scientific method adequately eradicates bias, then Richard Dawkins isn’t an anti-feminist? Is that it?

Newt
Newt
8 years ago

so yes science needs [more diverse positions] but what is needs
even more is activity protecting and promoting scientific method.

So why don’t we do both? We pesky SJWs can do our bit of activism, and you can go and do yours: protecting and promoting the scientific method.

What does that actually involve, for you? Is it furthered by you popping up in the comments of feminist blogs to demonstrate your ignorance of documented biases, or is that something you do for a break?

arash
arash
8 years ago

@WeirwoodTreeHugger

Oh, the sealion is still here?

I warned you not to get your hopes up too high.

Arash,
My statements are both fairly common knowledge and very easily Googled. I’m not doing it for you.

This is very typical white guy science. Demanding feminists do your work for you.

Common knowledge?!so nearly everyone or even if i want not to be hard on you i assume you think nearly every feminist knows this?!very accurate :))
unless you are talking about scientific “facts” that are well known to all, other scientific information require reference which seems you’re oblivious to this practice.
stop whining, this is a very normal academic procedures and if in “softies” you can say “it’s very easily Googled” then they are surely fucked up.

Seriously. If you’re going to present yourself as Mr Science Rational Man, shouldn’t you already know that most research in medicine and often biology is carried out with male subjects? I knew that as a first year undergrad studying one of the dreaded soft sciences.

no, my knowledge is finite and flawed and contrary to what you’re trying to prove that this matter isn’t a well known fact.

I’m not seeing why putting effort into making scientific fields more diverse and getting rid of endemic sexism and racism means we might as well just throw the scientific method out the window. They’re not mutually exclusive.

because you’re attacking a fucking straw man and that makes you blind.
i said concerning science what matters more is scientific method and not diversity contrary to what Scildfreja said(and you maybe thinking).
it doesn’t mean both can not or should not be done, i was just refuting the exaggerated importance put on diversity.

do you have the mental capacity to understand what i’m saying?!

If he can show that the scientific method adequately eradicates bias, then Richard Dawkins isn’t an anti-feminist? Is that it?

now i’m not sure whether you’re stupid or deliberately twisting my words.
my defend of dawkins has nothing to do with attacking the concept of “white science” and oversized importance of diversity.

@Scented Fucking Hard Chairs

Shut up, Jock Itch.

Thanks, but no thanks.

@Newt

So why don’t we do both? We pesky SJWs can do our bit of activism, and you can go and do yours: protecting and promoting the scientific method.

again:

i said concerning science what matters more is scientific method and not diversity contrary to what Scildfreja said(and you maybe thinking).
it doesn’t mean both can not or should not be done, i was just refuting the exaggerated importance put on diversity.

dhag85
dhag85
8 years ago

What are you even doing here? What do you want?

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
8 years ago

Haha. Somebody who doubts that medical research is usually carried out with male subjects has precisely 0 credibility. That is such common knowledge.

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