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Open Thread for Non-Personal Stuff: January 2016 Party Girls Edition

Get this party started on a Thursday night
Get this party started on a Thursday night

An open thread for non-personal stuff (there’s another one for personal stuff). As usual, no trolls, no MRAs here!

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darkstatistic
darkstatistic
5 years ago

Mammothhunters (or are you the Mammotheaters?) I have a question.

My local government has a women’s initiative group. I’m pretty lukewarm to it, because frankly it seems like a place for rich white women to congregate and network and get each other jobs at city hall. That said, I didn’t have a serious problem with the whole thing until they “opened a dialogue” on social media with a certain video game related movement/gang of misogynists that happens to target and attack women on a regular basis, because dialogue with abusers is more important than actually advocating for women, I guess.

I spoke up about the… eh… disconnect, and the initiative people pretty much told me to take a hike for “spreading hate” against the poor gamers who just care about ethics in journalism. They’re currently being lovebombed by the video game people who are going on about professional victims and how we hurt feminism and free speech — the usual talking points. (Odd that they’re currying favor with predominantly men who are predominantly from outside the city, given their mandate… my tax dollars at work.) I know in my bones that the gamers are laughing their butts off somewhere about how they got a feminist organization to embrace them whilst telling off another feminist who tried to warn them of the mistake they were making. Buuut, there doesn’t seem to be much I can do.

Any ideas? I love my city. I don’t want it to become either a laughingstock or to actually ally itself with a hategroup, but I’m not sure what to do. I don’t really know who to even ask, but I thought you folks might be able to give me some suggestions.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Maybe link them to some of the posts David has written on the subject. If you browse the archives you can find everything from the irc logs that prove “ethics in journalism” was a cover to the happy merchant cartoons redesigned to look like Anita Sarkeesian.

darkstatistic
darkstatistic
5 years ago

Yeah, I could try that. I mean, even the Wikipedia article is reasonably clear on the whole issue.

I’m also thinking about trying to contact my city councillor, but I don’t know what’s going to make the situation worse, you know? For me or for the city. I’ve been blocking people all day on account of having drawn attention to myself, while the initiative people don’t seem to have written me off as being a “hater”. The manipulation is really disheartening.

guest
guest
5 years ago

I’ve just started listening to the Reply All podcast, and their most recent show starts with three guys attempting to decode an utterance of the manosphere (one that David has already given us the background for):

https://gimletmedia.com/episode/52-raising-the-bar/

Haven’t heard the whole thing yet but the main story in this show is also worth a listen.

Lordcrowstaff
Lordcrowstaff
5 years ago

@darkstatistc: maybe try to talk to one person from the initiative in a more private setting, if you haven’t done that already? People often can be more reasonable and open if not confronted in public.

That being said, I feel for you there.

Wazza
Wazza
5 years ago

Interesting article at the SMH

Tovius
Tovius
5 years ago

Apparently South Carolina is trying to pass a Personhood amendment.

http://mic.com/articles/133063/south-carolina-fetal-personhood-amendment-here-s-what-you-should-know-about-proposed-law#.UgbZXMFjZ

Seriously, don’t they have anything better to do?

Wazza
Wazza
5 years ago

Sorry, News.

Faradn
Faradn
5 years ago

Is that Ayn Rand in the left there?

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

@Wazza
And here I’d forgotten all about Jared ‘n’ Jacob!

I was fascinated to read that Jared still lives in Asheville and apparently has learned nothing! Although he would have you believe that he’s Learned a Lot and Is a Better Man for It. Pfft. He’s what he most likely has always been: a nasty piece of work. And Jacob is the same.

Terrabeau
Terrabeau
5 years ago

@darkstatistic

I wouldn’t know how to solve this, really. When an organization like that wants to do something, they usually push it through regardless of any objections.

I’d just try distancing yourself from the group as much as possible for now. The initiative will collapse inevitably and they’ll forget about it.

Beth
Beth
5 years ago

Want to bitch- I was in a taxi the other night (late) with a guy I’m seeing who happens to be Indian. He got out at his condo and I proceeded to take the taxi to mine. As soon as he got out, the taxi driver began making comments about how beautiful he thought I was and asking really personal questions about the status of my relationship with the Indian guy. At one point he asked why someone like me would be with someone so dark skinned. I live in a city where mixed race relationships are common so I was very taken aback and offended but because it was late and I was alone I was polite and distant. Got out of the taxi furious. I’m furious that another human being would feel the need to get so personal with a stranger and I’m also furious at the male entitlement of making a woman so (visibly!) uncomfortable by making multiple comments about my looks. I told him to stop at one point and it persisted. Now I’m beating myself up for not sticking up for what was right more. I should have told him to go straight to hell but I (like many women!!) was worried about a nasty response. I’m sure his defense would be that you just can’t compliment a woman these days. No- you just shouldn’t be a creepy fucking racist asshole!

Beth
Beth
5 years ago

My bad! Wrong thread! I’ll delete & repost where it belongs 🙂

LG.
LG.
5 years ago

Anyone else getting damned sick of the Bernie Sanders fanboys? Getting so tired of conversations about race, sex and gender getting derailed with “this is why Bernie 2016 ‘cuz he’ll fix everything through the magic of class reductionism!”

Playonwords
Playonwords
5 years ago

And in good news Daniel Holzclaw (the Crybaby Cop) sentenced to 263 years.

History Nerd
History Nerd
5 years ago

Yeah. Even if Sanders gets elected and there’s a federal health service, zero university tuition, and retirement at age 55, there would still be problems related to race, sex, gender, and class. Socialism can be great, but it isn’t of logical necessity a just and equal society.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

I was very disappointed in Sander following his comments on slavery reparations. I thought Ta-Nehisi Coates said it best:

Last week Bernie Sanders was asked whether he was in favor of “reparations for slavery.” It is worth considering Sanders’s response in full:

No, I don’t think so. First of all, its likelihood of getting through Congress is nil. Second of all, I think it would be very divisive. The real issue is when we look at the poverty rate among the African American community, when we look at the high unemployment rate within the African American community, we have a lot of work to do.

So I think what we should be talking about is making massive investments in rebuilding our cities, in creating millions of decent paying jobs, in making public colleges and universities tuition-free, basically targeting our federal resources to the areas where it is needed the most and where it is needed the most is in impoverished communities, often African American and Latino.

For those of us interested in how the left prioritizes its various radicalisms, Sanders’s answer is illuminating. The spectacle of a socialist candidate opposing reparations as “divisive” (there are few political labels more divisive in the minds of Americans than socialist) is only rivaled by the implausibility of Sanders posing as a pragmatist. Sanders says the chance of getting reparations through Congress is “nil,” a correct observation which could just as well apply to much of the Vermont senator’s own platform.

Sanders made his name by being willing to speak plainly and to say things which violate political taboos. For him to suddenly forget that when it becomes awkward is to admit that his honestly has only ever been tactical – in which case, the man deserves no support.

History Nerd
History Nerd
5 years ago

The Sanders fanboys aren’t really on the left. At most they’re center-left. They seem more like very traditional liberals (equal legal rights only, only prima facie discrimination exists, government should be hands off on social issues) who happen to like limited socialism.

magnesium
magnesium
5 years ago

So I’m in the middle of applying to co-op jobs toward my degree. I’ve secured two interviews, but mostly silence. Can somebody more familiar with MRA Facts(TM) tell me how I can invoke those magic woman Quotas(TM) they keep insisting exist so that I can get any job I want? Thanks.

Miss Andry
5 years ago

Today’s the anniversary of Roe v. Wade. Here’s to hoping SCOTUS doesn’t screw it up.

BritterSweet
5 years ago

Sarkeesian recently uploaded her newest Tropes Vs. Women video. This time it’s titled “Strategic Butt Coverings,” and it’s about how video games tend to have the (Het) Male Gaze.

Before watching the video, I thought the title was going to mean developers trying to cover their own butts about how they portray (or don’t portray) women. Like Kojima giving an insultingly ridiculous “justification” for why Quiet from the latest Metal Gear Solid game is dressed for fanservice.

Ddog
Ddog
5 years ago

So I’d like people’s opinion on a matter of cultural appropriation that came to my attention this week. On IG I follow a lot of feminist accounts and make up ones (I’m a makeup artist myself) and the two interests seemed to collide massively. Basically a lot of people are getting really pissed at white people wearing fake tan and that much darker foundation and bronzer is a form of racism. I’m kind of the opinion that most of the people I know who wear makeup that’s way too dark for them are generally younger people who are just not confident enough to show their paleness. We called it oompa loompaism in school because people looked orange! I mentioned this in a group discussion and got a lot of schtick for it. I’m wondering now am I being ignorant because I had my realised or is this kind of a non issue?

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
5 years ago

Crap. The first criminal harassment case via Twitter in Canada ended up with a not guilty verdict. Manosphere gloating will ensue. http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/01/22/verdict-in-alleged-harassment-of-toronto-feminists-could-change-the-twitterverse.html

Bernie Sanders has a lot of fangirls, too, and the really dedicated ones are equally obnoxious. When I’ve said anything even slightly critical about Bernie and race issues I’ve been called a paid Hillary shill (aka Shillary) and one guy accused me of trying to influence a U.S. election. White supremacy is on full display with these people. Bernie’s worst enemy in this election is his own fans. Some of them literally act like right-wing zealots.

I loved that article by Ta-Nehisi Coates.

LG.
LG.
5 years ago

Yeah, it was the Coates article on reparations that had me annoyed ATM. Posted it to my Facebook wall and got almost nothing in response but white boys either dismissing the need for reparations or just writing mini-novela about why Sanders is better than Clinton.

That, plus I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve been dealing with some racist, sexist asshatery on FB and he has a Sanders campaign banner as his userpic.

The biggest fanboy I know actually claims to be an anarchist most of the time.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

Re: Bernie Sanders

Some of my friends are involved in his campaign. We’ve been discussing a lot about electability issues (I’m not particularly ‘political’ but I’m interested in the mechanics of politics). We’ve been looking a lot at the analysis of the last general election over here for instance.

One factor that seems to crop up is this (I’d be interested in your thoughts and my friends will be too)

One difference between right leaning voters and left leaning voters (to use a convenient shorthand) is that right voters will vote for a party or candidate even if they have some policies that the voter doesn’t like so long as, overall, they prefer that manifesto.

Whereas left voters adopt a “black ball” approach. I.e. If there’s even one policy the candidate has that they don’t like, they won’t vote for them, even if they like the rest of the platform.

The suggestion is that this is down to a “not in my name” philosophy.

Left voters believe that if they support a candidate’s general platform they are also endorsing the parts they find distasteful. Whereas on the right a voter might say “well of course I don’t support him on (x), my vote was because of his policy on (y & z)”

There are some very politically astute people on here, anyy thoughts on this?

LG.
LG.
5 years ago

Alan –

I think a lot of people are assuming that because many leftists still want to TALK about what’s problematic about a candidate, that equals “won’t vote for them.” So every time we try to say, “hey, this thing is not cool, you know,” we get bombarded with angry “BUT BUT HILLARY SUX STOP STANDING IN THE WAY OF PROGRESS.”

Which is, you know, exactly what my annoyance was about in the first place. I will grudgingly vote for Sanders (because voting for POTUS is always a grudging activity for me) but I’m sick of the pressure to respect his sacred cow status.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ LG

That’s interesting, thank you. I’ve said I’ll report back any feedback without comment so as not to skew the results so I hope you don’t think I’m rude if I don’t actually respond. But you do raise a good point.

*sits on hands and tries to keep schnozz out*

katz
5 years ago

Anyone else getting damned sick of the Bernie Sanders fanboys? Getting so tired of conversations about race, sex and gender getting derailed with “this is why Bernie 2016 ‘cuz he’ll fix everything through the magic of class reductionism!”

OH MY GOD THE SANDERS FANBOYS. And I like the guy, generally. But seriously, I feel like I literally can’t mention anything negative about him, ever, or anything even slightly positive about Hillary, ever, lest I get buried in a landslide of #FeelTheBern.

I mean, there’s plenty to critique Hillary about, but the way Bernie fans respond to her isn’t “political opponent,” it’s “woman on the internet.” And it’s really squicky.

snork maiden
5 years ago

I found about this shite in The Independent today:

https://www.change.org/p/emma-watson-spend-one-week-in-a-calais-migrant-camp-for-feminism

Some disingenuous git is demanding that Emma Watson spend one week alone in a refugee camp, in order to prove that refugees are feminists. FFS, this has red pill all over it. When she predictably ignores the petition I expect to see misogynists accusing her of hypocrisy.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@Alan:
I read, some years ago, an interview with the proprietor of an American expatriate bar in London. He said that one of the most interesting things about Americans is that they always go drinking in politically aligned groups.

The interviewer asked him which type of Americans were easier to serve, Democrats or Republicans?

Republicans by far, he said. Every group of Republicans has an unspoken leader and takes their drinking cues from him (almost always a him.) If he drinks a scotch then they all have status drinks, if he stays on Coke then they all go with soft drinks, et cetera. This is ideal for bar staff. Democrats are utterly disorganised and will go with their own personal choice for drinks regardless of what the others are having.

I think the swallow-your-pride-and-follow-the-banner aspect of that is probably a symptom of the same thing that leads your friends to notice that right-wing people will vote the party line even if they hesitate to be associated with it.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ snork maiden

I can’t speak for Hermione; but if people want to read about the experiences of a feminist woman in a refugee camp, here’s a link…

https://kthavocblog.wordpress.com

(KT is wonderful, all my friends are so much *better* than me)

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@katz:
I don’t know many Bernie Sanders fanboys, sadly (or perhaps not) but the impression I get is that they’re a stone’s throw from the #RonPaulRevolution folks in terms of demographics, enthusiasm and online behaviour. Is this borne out?

katz
5 years ago

There are some very politically astute people on here, anyy thoughts on this?

I think there’s a difference here between leftist politicians and (especially far) leftist voters. Leftist politicians are usually willing to compromise and form coalitions to advance their goals, whereas right-wing politicians (eg, the Tea Party) are happy to just be obstructionist if they can’t get exactly what they want.

But far-left voters tend to be idealists who want an ideologically pure candidate, which creates a cycle of deification and disillusionment. They supported Barack Obama because he was new to politics and didn’t have a lot of political dirt in his background, but now there’s a far-left Obama hatedom because he had to do Actual Politics and didn’t just instate a perfect progressive agenda across the board.

If Bernie got elected, I’d expect to see the same thing again.

There’s a lot of Green Lantern theory of the presidency going on here.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
5 years ago

Ddog, I read makeup sites/books, read sites that are feminist and/or female-oriented, and have an aunt and cousin who like makeup and like to talk about it. I’ve never heard anyone say that getting fake tans or wearing foundation/bronzer that’s too dark for your skin are racist. The general consensus from the people/sites I’ve had (limited) experience with is that fake tans are fine and the people who wear too-dark foundation/bronzer fall into one of three categories: insecure about their skin tone (as you said), don’t know their proper shade, or (this was more common a few years ago when it was still on) trying to emulate the Jersey Shore girls. I think it’s a nonissue and the people you saw complaining about it are just bored and looking for something to complain about to fill their excessive free time.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ Katz

ideologically pure candidate,

I think you’ve really hit the nail on the head there; but like I say, I’m trying to get untainted intel, so again hope you don’t think I’m rude if I stay out of it (you may find that quite a refreshing change!)

snork maiden
5 years ago

@ Alan,

thanks for the link, I’ll check it out. I’ve a friend who’s been doing supply runs to the French camps, and she’s only encountered friendship and gratitude.

What’s despicable about the petition is the negative assumptions it makes about the refugees, the assumption that Watson would be raped were she set foot in there. Its supporters are demanding she ‘put her money where her mouth is’, as if one young woman represents every person who wants the refugees to be allowed protection in Europe.

Ironically if Watson were to spend a week in The Jungle, she’d be fine. A high profile visitor like her would be treated like an honored guest I expect. At least the authorities wouldn’t bulldoze the place while she was in it.

On The Indy’s facebook page the story is causing a lot of confusion among people unfamiliar with red pill trollery.

Hambeast, Social Justice Beastie
Hambeast, Social Justice Beastie
5 years ago

I’m happy that my friends who are Bernie fans aren’t too sensitive about criticism. Every candidate has flaws and vanishingly few will align perfectly with anyone’s every issue or view.

I figure the true believers in any given campaign must be the lucky few who agree with that candidate in almost everything. I wonder what that’s like?

Auntie Alias:

…one guy accused me of trying to influence a U.S. election.

FWIW, I’m always interested to know how our friends from other countries feel about politics and issues here in the U.S. Also, I often hesitate to participate in petitions directed at other countries’ leaders (heck, sometimes even other states!)

LG
LG
5 years ago

“I don’t know many Bernie Sanders fanboys, sadly (or perhaps not) but the impression I get is that they’re a stone’s throw from the #RonPaulRevolution folks in terms of demographics, enthusiasm and online behaviour. Is this borne out?”

Oh, GOD, yes.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ hambeast

I often hesitate to participate in petitions directed at other countries’ leaders

Well you wouldn’t want to fall foul of the Logan Act 😉

Hambeast, Social Justice Beastie
Hambeast, Social Justice Beastie
5 years ago

Alan, you had me going there for a minute! Then I looked it up and I don’t think a bunch of petitions from the petition site.com would run afoul of that. *whew*

I mostly don’t sign those anyway. We Americans stick our noses into way too much stuff we haven’t any business doing as it is. I live in horror of being an Ugly American!

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
5 years ago

@Hambeast, Social Justice Beastie

I stick to petitions in my own country. It feels dishonest to sign a foreign petition asking for political action. (Maybe it isn’t but the idea makes me uncomfortable so I don’t do it.)

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

Sorry to be the one to break this, but I know people here follow this sort of thing.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/22/la-loche-canada-school-shooting-lockdown-saskatchewan

Ellesar
Ellesar
5 years ago

Charlotte Rampling has just been added onto my list of ‘women who really should know better’.

Re the debate around the primarily white and male Oscars:

Oscar nominee Charlotte Rampling has called a boycott “racist against white people”.

Sigh…

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

Ugh, the Oxford English Dictionary thinks feminists are rabid.

http://www.themarysue.com/sexist-usage-examples/

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

I’ve been seeing some “don’t support Sanders because he can’t possibly win” Clinton boosting on my FB feed. It usually results in Sanders boosting. The resultant cascade reminds me of the fistfights in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher between the monks who do the cleaning.

My usual response is “I have pledged to vote for whoever the Democratic candidate is, up to and including the galvanized corpse of George McGovern”. That usually gets a positive response.

Redsilkphoenix
Redsilkphoenix
5 years ago

Dumb tech question of the day: is there a way to troubleshoot an iPhone/iCloud sync? My iPhone 4 has not been syncing with iCloud for almost five months now, despite the fact that I have had the thing connected to a desktop via USB cable in an area with free wifi, and locked. What should I start to look at to try and figure out what’s wrong here? Any ideas?

Curry
Curry
5 years ago

Darkstatistic, I too live in this city (airport rhymes with egg?)

I can’t believe how useless that “initiative” is if the person running it is so clueless that they think the conversation they’re having with “that group” is useful.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

From LindsayIrene’s link:

If Jared had studied his foundational text more closely, he might’ve been able to predict what happened next. By the end of The Game, Strauss has a revelation: The systematic, quantified pursuit of women tends to make men bitter and resentful. … And so, even as Jared was getting what he purportedly wanted — plenty of sex with plenty of women — he became increasingly bitter and judgmental. Over time, his anger became directed not at a particular woman who flaked on him but at women as a group: “The hardest thing in game,” he tweeted, “is not hating women for how fucking stupid they can be.”

Interesting, this idea that game turns ordinary men hateful and bitter. I wonder if it’s true.

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