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Red Pill Redditor: Dating a rape victim is like dating a pedophile

This "should" logic makes a lot more sense
This “should” logic makes a lot more sense

The Purple Pill Debate subreddit is a strange little corner of the internet, a place where intrepid Blue Pillers try to logic Red Pillers into giving up their repugnant ideology, and vice versa.

The main problem with this strategy is that Red Pillers don’t really understand logic as you or I do. They’ve got their own version, and it’s pretty … weird, as one recent post in r/PurplePillDebate makes abundantly clear.

The proposition being debated: “If you expect a man to date a rape victim, then you should be willing to date a pedophile.”

Wait, what? The Red Piller advancing this, er, argument tries to explain in more detail what exactly he means:

Rape victims often develop a variety of serious psychological issues, including depression, borderline personality disorder (aka borderline insanity disorder), self-harm, alcohol and/or drug addiction, and PTSD.

People who have these serious psychological issues are at a higher risk of joblessness, homelessness, and divorce. They tend to have unstable and chaotic relationships.

Now, of course it isn’t a rape victim’s fault that they were raped, but that still doesn’t mean that it is a good idea to date a rape victim.

So far, not so good. All of the sources the poster cites as evidence for these claims about rape survivors are behind paywalls, but a quick scan of the abstracts suggest that he didn’t read them very carefully. One of the papers he cites, actually looking at the effects of childhood sexual abuse rather than rape per se, reports that, contrary to the poster’s claims,

there is insufficient evidence to confirm a relation between a history of childhood sexual abuse and a postsexual abuse syndrome and multiple or borderline personality disorder.

 

That said, there’s no question that rape (or any kind of sexual abuse) can be extremely traumatic, with far-reaching and long-lasting consequences. These can certainly cause issues in relationships.

But every relationship has issues, and there is absolutely no evidence that rape survivors — or the survivors of any other serious trauma — are incapable of having healthy relationships.

At this point, our Red Pill poster goes completely off the rails:

Dating someone who has serious psychological issues is risky. To illustrate how risky it is, would you date a pedophile? Pedophilia isn’t a choice. However, pedophiles have unstable lives and wouldn’t make good romantic partners.

So, if you expect a man to be willing to date a rape victim because “it wasn’t her fault,” then you should be willing to date a pedophile because “it isn’t his fault.”

Wow. There are at least two gigantic problems here. First, of course, is the inherent offensiveness of suggesting there’s some sort of moral equivalency between pedophiles (potential if not necessarily actual predators) with rape survivors (people who have themselves been victimized by predators).

Second, there’s insurrectono’s if-then logic, which is utterly inappropriate when it comes to matters of the heart, where “should” shouldn’t go.

No, Red Pillers, no one is telling you that you are obligated to date rape survivors — or, for that matter, cancer patients, or Billy Joel fans, or indeed anyone in any particular category that human beings fall into.

Indeed, if your first thought upon hearing that someone us a rape survivor is to think “ick, she’s probably all messed up,” guess what?

No one really gives two shits whether or not you’re willing to date her. Because she doesn’t want to date you. Because you’re a petulant asshole with no empathy for other people. And that makes you pretty damn “risky” as a romantic partner.

H/T — r/TheBluePill

 

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RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

@freemage
Maybe. But there has to be a better way to phrase that. “I have the right to choose the people I will and won’t date?” perhaps?
I’d think people who are supposedly charming and suave would have a way with words, but what do I know?

@ParadoxicalIntention
Oh, yeah, there’s that too. In which case, I’m all for terpers not dating rape victims. Or anyone else for that matter!

@Alan
YOU MET BJÖRK?!
Get outta here

Aaaaaaand since people talked about Iceland… One of my dreams is to visit Iceland. It sounds like a really nice place. Really chill.

ashley
ashley
5 years ago

Non-rape victims also often develop serious psychological issues such as depression, BPD, self harm, addiction, and PTSD.

My advice to you then, Red Pillers? Don’t date. I’m sure the rest of the non-Red population would agree with me on that.

Megan Rivera
5 years ago

I don’t understand these dudes. They’re constantly whining that “Ebil Feminazis” are trying to “force” them to date women they don’t want to date.

What they don’t get is NO ONE WANTS THEM TO DATE ANYONE. Because they’re wholly abusive, narcissistic entitled manbabies who should NEVER go near a woman EVER, NO MATTER WHAT.

Feminists are not trying to force you to date rape victims, or fat women, or women with short hair, or anyone else you fuckers whine about. We’re literally saying you shouldn’t ever date any woman. Because you don’t know the first thing about having a healthy, equal partnership with a woman, since YOU DON’T RESPECT THEM.

History Nerd
History Nerd
5 years ago

There are effective treatments for BPD and PTSD. Plus, there’s a high preponderance of evidence that sufferers aren’t likely child molesters.

If we’re talking about pedophilia the way clinical literature discusses it, someone 16 or older with persistent and intense attraction to prepubescent children, there aren’t any treatments for it that work reliably. Therapists can’t change the desires and when you look at studies of therapy aimed at reducing offending, the therapies become less effective the more rigorous the study methodology is (I know this sentence seems to say that less rigorous study methodologies cause the therapies to be effective, but I’m getting tired today). Libido suppressant drugs can have side effects like depression and most people don’t want to take them.

There’s no way of knowing how many pedophiles are likely to act on their desires. But there are good reasons to believe that it’s not safe to have them around children (children are more trusting than adults, power dynamics, grooming)

Monzach
Monzach
5 years ago

The OP is truly disgusting. I can’t even figure out the depths of Red Pillery one must be in to be able to hold such an opinion. 🙁

However, the real reason I wanted to post here is the discussion on Iceland, since I was lucky enough to attend a two week long swim meet for young Nordic sportspeople with disabilities there way back in July 1995. Iceland was a truly amazing place, with surprisingly many golf courses. Seriously, when entering and leaving a settlement of practically any size there seemed to be a golf course. Also, I can also relate a celebrity meeting in Iceland, as I was lucky enough to meet president Vigdis Finnbogadottir whilst there. Again, it was thanks to the sports meeting there. I’m afraid I don’t remember much about meeting her as I was only 13 at the time and meeting sitting presidents didn’t seem very important back then. 🙁

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I’ve only been in the Iceland airport when I flew from Minneapolis to Paris. I wish we had stayed over for the night. It’s so gorgeous and I have to imagine there is some delicious fresh fish to be eaten. Especially since cod is one of my favorites.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ WWTH

Would you believe Britain and Iceland went to ‘war’ over cod as recently as the 70s!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_Wars

(Technically it was a ‘militarised dispute’)

ETA: really, if you want to be able to eat cod in the future, we should stop eating it for 20 years or so to let stocks get back to sustainable levels

Dr Hoveiny
Dr Hoveiny
5 years ago

Iceland is really friendly, like most Nordic countries I’ve seen. People don’t lock their bikes, etc. But it has the added weirdness thing. Lots of people have a job and an artistic pursuit. They are super secular, but yes the troll and pixie thing exists. And it does resemble a lunar landscape, it’s mostly volcanic rock covered with moss. Apollo astronauts trained there because of the geology resemblance. There is also penis museum!

And yes, the seafood is so good and fresh! My favorite thing was lobster bisque out of this hut right at the waterfront. I never came across the fermented shark though.

Their prohibition story is goofy too, beer (just beer) wasn’t legal until the 90s.

Number Sequence
Number Sequence
5 years ago

You know, Purple Pill sounds like an interesting idea in my head. Red pill types are constantly tilting at windmills, so maybe enough exposure to actual feminist arguments or even just not-red pill people talking could give them real context for feminism and the red pill ideology. Maybe with that context, some amount could break through the imaginary feminism that’s been built up for them to be angry at. It worked on me. That sort of thing would take time, so it’s possible I’m being impatient. Maybe it’s working on someone, somewhere, but…

This jackass did it anyway! Who was making the argument, “Feminism says that we (men) will be required to date (female) rape victims even if we don’t want to!” I’m gonna go out on a limb and say no one. And why did he create it? I’m going with what Buttercup said and assume it’s to create a gotcha. “Ha! You women won’t do this (falsely) equivalent thing, so I don’t have to put in any effort ever!” And that’s me being generous enough to assume this tool extremely twisted someone’s words. I’m equally willing to believe he made this up wholecloth.

How do people live like that?

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

I don’t think 20 years is enough not-eating of cod to get Atlantic cod back where they should be. Too many fisheries are beyond repair already. The Canadian fishery pretty much hasn’t been fished at all since the early 1990s and is still in collapse.

Shaenon
5 years ago

It’s popular in parts of the manosphere to diagnose women as “borderline” for showing basically any negative emotions. To hear them tell it, just about every ex-girlfriend of an MRA had this weird mental disorder that made them get all mad over nothing, brah.

And thank you forever for introducing me to the Purple Pill. Red Pillers arguing with decent people who mistakenly think there’s some point to talking to Red Pillers…amazing.

Rosie*sings*
Rosie*sings*
5 years ago

there is insufficient evidence to confirm a relation between a history of childhood sexual abuse and a postsexual abuse syndrome and multiple or borderline personality disorder.

Well, given that so-called Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD) got renamed to Dissociative Identity Disorder (or DID) in fucking 1993 anyone who still calls it MPD is so out of date that they aren’t worth listening to anyway. There’s been a lot of advancement in this area in the past 20 years.

As for Borderline Personality Disorder, there is a whole school of thought that tried to get it changed to complex ptsd or c-ptsd for the DSM-5 that came out last year. It didn’t work, but they didn’t go away.

So yeah. If you call it MPD then no, I don’t want to date you. Because I bet that your dating habits are stuck in the 50s as well and that’s a major turn-off.

DS
DS
5 years ago

@ashley: Heck, half of the Red Pillers are MGTOWs anyway, so they should collectively get the hell over their hangups with women, acquiesce to not dating, and go do something useful like working a job or staying out of the way of progressive efforts in society. Yeesh.

anon
anon
5 years ago

“Now, of course it isn’t a rape victim’s fault that they were raped,”

This makes him the most forward thinking redpiller in the history of their movement.

That is so fucking depressing.

History Nerd
History Nerd
5 years ago

I really doubt that most child molesters are clinical pedophiles anyway. It’s more likely they get off on power and control.

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw

There are many reasons to like Iceland, . . . but one thing I especially like is that the Prime Minister’s home telephone number is in the local phone book.

That is extremely cool!

And this might be well known in the UK, but it was news to me when I read it: German Chancellor Angela Merkel does her own grocery shopping. And her constituents call her Mutti. She hated it at first, but now she’s down with being called Mom.

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

It’s popular in parts of the manosphere to diagnose women as “borderline” for showing basically any negative emotions. To hear them tell it, just about every ex-girlfriend of an MRA had this weird mental disorder that made them get all mad over nothing, brah.

Oh, this is one of the massive red flags I have with guys. It’s very common for them to say “my ex was BPD”, to which they expect me to go “Ohhh you poor baby, she must have been a [ableist slur] [sexist slur]”.
More than once they’ve continued bashing their exes under the guise of it being ok because she had a diagnosis that “made her that way”.

It’s my cue to moonwalk out of any friendly ties they might want me in, or depending on the guy’s level of intensity or mouth foam I might tell them about my best friend with the BPD diagnosis and perhaps a little bit about ableism. I usually leave the “you sound like a bitter arsehole” in the notebook of my mind while going to look for my Moon boots.

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

And brilliant to have Iceland lovers here! My friend lived there for a few years and she met the president a couple of times. He seemed chill. 😀

In Finland our former president Tarja Halonen was pretty casual too. She was sometimes spotted roaming around in her windbreaker and baseball cap.

I don’t think Nordics sans monarchy are good at formal.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

My college clinical and abnormal psychology textbook featured Glenn Close’s character in Fatal Attraction as an example of BPD.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/aec30e3ec3512c25a30d8131087d1072/tumblr_n5cd51Uary1rwhddio6_250.gif

katz
5 years ago

I hadn’t heard about the BPD/PTSD thing before. That’s interesting. Borderline personality disorder is one of those conditions that’s totally overwhelmed with cultural ignorance.

Binjabreel
Binjabreel
5 years ago

The cat’s a reference to this meme:
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-should-buy-a-boat-cat

Also, yeah, I studied psychology like almost ten years ago now and they were talking about how bpd was almost certainly just “sexist Freudian psychotherapist disorder”. Then again I went to like the hippiest of hippie colleges (Banana slugs for the win!)

Saphira
Saphira
5 years ago

To hear them tell it, just about every ex-girlfriend of an MRA had this weird mental disorder that made them get all mad over nothing, brah.

Well, it does make a great MO for getting out of a relationship when these idiots don’t want to be in one. Crazy is hard to prove or disprove, therefore, is the perfect excuse.

leftwingfox
leftwingfox
5 years ago

then you should be willing to date a pedophile because “it isn’t his fault.”

This is really just a restatement of the idea that rapists (or hell even just cheaters) can’t help themselves. It’s bullshit, even when kinks, fetishes and perversions are involved.

BritterSweet
5 years ago

I’m not sure which interpretation I got of the OP’s message is worse: “Rape victims are undesirable because the effects of their trauma can inconvenience you,” or, “Give [us] pedophiles a chance.”

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

I realise that what I’m about to say trips Leda Atomica’s red flag, but: having dated someone who had BPD, knowing several other people with it, and having grown up with a mother who exhibited a number of its symptoms, I am entirely in favour of the thesis that it’s a form of PTSD.

(I am going museuming with said ex next week, in fact. It doesn’t mean that she isn’t a decent human being and a fun person to be around.)

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

EJ,

I know sufferers have actual real life issues that can cause problems in relationships. I think I should have made myself a bit clearer in stating that my red flag is raised when BPD is used as an excuse to badmouth an ex. This really is a thing, I’ve sat at the listening end many times and it hasn’t come off as sincere “I need to get this weight off my heart” but just bitter ranting.

I’m allergic to that sort of use of someone’s [possible] diagnosis.
I’ve also had guys diagnose their ex as “probably bipolar” in order to clue me in on how much of an abusive monster she was. They are of course blissfully unaware of my bp diagnosis. Awkward.

Flora
Flora
5 years ago

Hey, coming in from a general medical background and as a child of a BPD parent, and as the wife of someone with PTSD… BPD is closely associated with early trauma. The psychiatrists and psychologists I’ve worked with taught me that there is some thought that BPD may also be a “feminized” expression of antisocial personality disorder. Guys are outright aggressive so they get flagged as APD, whereas women tend to be more passive aggressive (due to socialization), so they get their BPD diagnosis. I’m not aware of it falling out of favour as a diagnosis, at least locally. I saw a young woman in the Emerg with a recent diagnosis of it just yesterday.

That being said, any mental illness can be a breaking point for a relationship, or it can be something you work through together. The fact that these guys flake at even the idea that a woman be imperfect show just how unprepared they are for reality.

ETA: I didn’t mean to imply all BPD individuals are aggressive, only that there is a subset of women diagnosed as BPD because sexism when they are more accurately APD

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@Leda:
I’m with you now. Yeah, as Shaenon said upthread, I think a lot of men will diagnose people with all sorts of stuff in order to avoid facing the reality that they were just shitty boyfriends.

Even if you do have psychological diagnoses, it doesn’t mean that you’re a bad person or (necessarily) a bad girlfriend. It just means that people need to act in an understanding manner towards you and avoid being selfish when you’re in their life. That’s probably why manospherians object to it so much.

sbel
sbel
5 years ago

@leftwingfox

then you should be willing to date a pedophile because “it isn’t his fault.”

This is really just a restatement of the idea that rapists (or hell even just cheaters) can’t help themselves. It’s bullshit, even when kinks, fetishes and perversions are involved.

That comparison doesn’t quite work because cheating and raping are both actions. Pedophilia is an attraction. People can control their actions but have very little control over who (or what) they are attracted to.

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

WTF?!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/doctor-charged-with-ejaculating-on-patients-face-surrenders_us_569e98dce4b04c813761bc2f?cps=gravity_5059_16688115572599675

And I just had to scroll down to see #misandry (yes, hashtagged) somewhere in the first comments. Also “just as many women predators” or summat.

I’m done with internet. Gonna go see the new Tarantino movie. Ciao!

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
5 years ago
Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 years ago

I agree with sbel. Pedophilia is an attraction, and I believe about as much about reeducation helping with that than about gay “reeducation”. A least a decent amount of the pedophiles would be horrified to act upon their fantasms.

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

@Leda Atomica, @Pandapool
Oh, sorry about that. It’s really distressing. But I’m glad that this woman was brave and determined enough to report him.

TW (sexual assault by an MD) for Kat’s “WTF?!” post four messages above.

misseb47
misseb47
5 years ago

This is got to be one of the most disgusting things I have ever read. Fucking douchenozzel! How dare he compare victims of rape and abuse with the perpetrators of rape and abuse! I hope women who have been victimised are able to stay clear of this guy. Hell, every women should stay clear of him. We all deserve better than him.

Three Snakes
5 years ago

Perhaps we should condemn the offender to a thousand years of suffering in the lego pit.

Scaly Llama
Scaly Llama
5 years ago

@Three Snakes

Perhaps we should condemn the offender to a thousand years of suffering in the lego pit.

The Lego Pit is too good for them!

😡

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

Holes in all his socks, including the brand-new ones. In perpetuity.

The power of this punishment is often underestimated. Holes around the toe are painful all day long.

Bernardo Soares
Bernardo Soares
5 years ago

Wow, that was…horrifying.

@Kat
There’s one thing that’s worse than holes on the toe of your sock, and that’s when the fabric of you sockliner gets torn, rolls up and presses on the sole of your foot while walking. That might be a bit specific, but that’s what I wish upon this guy.

And jail.

Moggie
Moggie
5 years ago

Wow, that sleezebag doctor!

The woman is said to have preserved some of his semen for authorities.

Smart and brave woman. She’s probably saved a lot of women from experiencing this, or worse if the doctor’s behaviour escalated.

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

@Bernardo Soares
Excellent recommendations, both of them!

@Moggie
I was pretty surprised that this assault survivor was able to preserve his semen and give it to the police. Maybe it was like the famous stain on Monica Lewinsky’s dress.

Moggie
Moggie
5 years ago

Well, you’d want to preserve it, wouldn’t you? Spooge from a high-status guy like a doctor? LIQUID FUCKING GOLD, that.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I think part of the non-professional diagnoses some men make in their ex-girlfriends is an extension of how men are socialized to think about women. Men who date women all seem to have “crazy” ex girlfriend stories. Women who date men all seem to have “asshole” ex boyfriend stories. Really, it’s just that most people who date will have an asshole ex at some point, whatever the genders involved are. But men are socialized to view any woman they have trouble with as crazy. For some of them, it’s a pretty short leap from viewing their exes as generally “crazy” or “psycho” to actually proclaiming diagnoses.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Liquid fucking gold jokes never get old, do they?

Bernardo Soares
Bernardo Soares
5 years ago

Ew, and just now I read on a German site that a train conductor is being accused of sexually assaulting a 17 year old who didn’t have a ticket, saying “we can talk about this” and then attacking her in the train toilet.

Josh
Josh
5 years ago

@HistoryNerd

I really doubt that most child molesters are clinical pedophiles anyway. It’s more likely they get off on power and control.

You’re actually right about that. It’s the same idea that causes prison rape. It’s not about attraction, it’s about dominating someone.

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

Claiming a victim is the same as a child rapist who creates victims while feigning being free from issues and better than those who have them? I think David just found the worst human being in the world.

Moggie
Moggie
5 years ago

WWTH:

Liquid fucking gold jokes never get old, do they?

I blame that Sarumanic dramatic reading for etching that line into my memory. But I probably shouldn’t joke about this.

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

Yeah, I’m 100% convinced that if I were to wake up from anesthesia after needing a medical procedure done, only to discover that I had ‘precious bodily fluids’ deposited ON MY DAMN FACE, I wouldn’t need to worry about which doctors my insurance plan works with ever again (I’d be busy getting myself a lawyer) and the doctor wouldn’t need to worry about his genitals being attached to his body anymore.

WTF!? ….#&*%^!@

I’m wondering if it would make me seem like a slut if I put together a ‘crime scene evidence preserving kid’ in my purse while trying to market that idea as a buusbessv

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

Men who date women all seem to have “crazy” ex girlfriend stories.

My ex used to tell stories about his ex to me. It usually sounded like pretty normal behavior to me, so I would respond by saying things like, “oh, it sounds like she didn’t feel like you were hearing her out” and such. He would look at me like I’d grown an extra head when I did this. I guess I wasn’t supposed to empathize with her because she was the “crazy” ex and this story was supposed to make me feel sorry for him or something, but those stories just made me realize how immature he was to think perfectly normal interactions were somehow disordered. It wasn’t long after that when my perfectly normal reactions to things started getting blown out of proportion by him, but at least I had some foreshadowing. 😉