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Red Pill Redditor: Dating a rape victim is like dating a pedophile

This "should" logic makes a lot more sense
This “should” logic makes a lot more sense

The Purple Pill Debate subreddit is a strange little corner of the internet, a place where intrepid Blue Pillers try to logic Red Pillers into giving up their repugnant ideology, and vice versa.

The main problem with this strategy is that Red Pillers don’t really understand logic as you or I do. They’ve got their own version, and it’s pretty … weird, as one recent post in r/PurplePillDebate makes abundantly clear.

The proposition being debated: “If you expect a man to date a rape victim, then you should be willing to date a pedophile.”

Wait, what? The Red Piller advancing this, er, argument tries to explain in more detail what exactly he means:

Rape victims often develop a variety of serious psychological issues, including depression, borderline personality disorder (aka borderline insanity disorder), self-harm, alcohol and/or drug addiction, and PTSD.

People who have these serious psychological issues are at a higher risk of joblessness, homelessness, and divorce. They tend to have unstable and chaotic relationships.

Now, of course it isn’t a rape victim’s fault that they were raped, but that still doesn’t mean that it is a good idea to date a rape victim.

So far, not so good. All of the sources the poster cites as evidence for these claims about rape survivors are behind paywalls, but a quick scan of the abstracts suggest that he didn’t read them very carefully. One of the papers he cites, actually looking at the effects of childhood sexual abuse rather than rape per se, reports that, contrary to the poster’s claims,

there is insufficient evidence to confirm a relation between a history of childhood sexual abuse and a postsexual abuse syndrome and multiple or borderline personality disorder.

 

That said, there’s no question that rape (or any kind of sexual abuse) can be extremely traumatic, with far-reaching and long-lasting consequences. These can certainly cause issues in relationships.

But every relationship has issues, and there is absolutely no evidence that rape survivors — or the survivors of any other serious trauma — are incapable of having healthy relationships.

At this point, our Red Pill poster goes completely off the rails:

Dating someone who has serious psychological issues is risky. To illustrate how risky it is, would you date a pedophile? Pedophilia isn’t a choice. However, pedophiles have unstable lives and wouldn’t make good romantic partners.

So, if you expect a man to be willing to date a rape victim because “it wasn’t her fault,” then you should be willing to date a pedophile because “it isn’t his fault.”

Wow. There are at least two gigantic problems here. First, of course, is the inherent offensiveness of suggesting there’s some sort of moral equivalency between pedophiles (potential if not necessarily actual predators) with rape survivors (people who have themselves been victimized by predators).

Second, there’s insurrectono’s if-then logic, which is utterly inappropriate when it comes to matters of the heart, where “should” shouldn’t go.

No, Red Pillers, no one is telling you that you are obligated to date rape survivors — or, for that matter, cancer patients, or Billy Joel fans, or indeed anyone in any particular category that human beings fall into.

Indeed, if your first thought upon hearing that someone us a rape survivor is to think “ick, she’s probably all messed up,” guess what?

No one really gives two shits whether or not you’re willing to date her. Because she doesn’t want to date you. Because you’re a petulant asshole with no empathy for other people. And that makes you pretty damn “risky” as a romantic partner.

H/T — r/TheBluePill

 

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Vetch
Vetch
5 years ago

I appreciate it that those red pillers don’t date rape victims.
I really hope they don’t get to date anyone at all! Ever.

Freemage
Freemage
5 years ago

This is one of those posts that doesn’t inspire me to anger so much as pity. This guy is just… sad. And sadder still because he doesn’t understand just how pathetic he really is.

Tabby Lavalamp
Tabby Lavalamp
5 years ago

Or, you know, women who are attracted to men could be willing to date men who have gone through trauma.

Josh
Josh
5 years ago

I had some pithy insult when I read the title, but having read the post… I’m just saddened.

Ellesar
Ellesar
5 years ago

This logic fail is a blinder. It is also SO offensive, but sufficiently absurd to negate any anger I could potentially feel.

Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
5 years ago

Red Pill creeps absolutely shouldn’t be willing to date rape survivors.

Rape survivors have suffered enough already.

Ddog
Ddog
5 years ago

As a survivor of childhood rape, who suffers from PTSD, this made me feel a variety of emotions, anger, sadness and weirdly smugness.

This time last year I was convinced that because of my past that I was broken inside, that I was too fucked up to be loved, basically I believed the shit that assholes like the above spew. Luckily and thanks to a lot of great counsellors and doctors, also my amazing sisters (who even though they mainly don’t label themselves as such, are my feminist heroes) I’m doing a lot better now. The system failed me as my attacker was never brought to court and my extended family did not do much in way of support. But now despite that I can identify this shit as the total bile it is. I am in avert loving relationship at the minute, something I never would have thought was possible. As a survivor I’ve learned to accept myself finally. Which brings me to the smug part of my reaction, this shit spotted pompous ferret will NEVER get to be with someone as awesome as me and all the other amazing survivors I’ve met 🙂

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ ddog

Hope this works

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/066/552/whos-awesome.jpg

Yey, it did

(Ignore his bad grammar; that’s perhaps forgiveable in a puppy)

hugseverycat
hugseverycat
5 years ago

So, rape survivors are more likely to have mental illnesses. Pedophilia is a mental illness. Therefore, rape survivors are exactly the same as pedophiles.

Makes sense. After all, smokers are more likely to get cancer, and breast cancer is a cancer, which is why we surgically remove the breast tissue of all smokers. You know, just in case.

Mike
Mike
5 years ago

Just wanted to quickly note: I’m not up on current discourse around borderline personality disorder (and anecdotally, I’ve heard that doctors don’t give out this diagnosis all that much these days), but I’ve heard people theorize that borderline personality disorder is, more-or-less, a sexist classification of PTSD. Like, when a man has experienced trauma and is exhibiting the relevant symptoms, he’ll be diagnosed with PTSD, but when a woman exhibits very similar symptoms she’ll be diagnosed with BPD; the man’s symptoms are understood as having developed out of specific experiences in his life, but the woman’s symptoms are pathologized as being part of her innate personality.

But, like I said, I’m not an expert and could just be talking out of my butt. Anyone with knowledge in the field care to weigh-in?

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

Why is it always things like “If you should X, then you should also Y because they are both in the alphabet and therefor the same thing”?

“So, if you expect a man to be willing to date a rape victim because “it wasn’t her fault,” then you should be willing to date a pedophile because “it isn’t his fault.””

I wouldn’t expect a man to be willing to date a rape victim for the sole reason that it wasn’t her fault. Why would that be a reason to date someone? You can’t just throw in a ‘therefor’ without any genuine parallel to the situation besides “it’s not their fault”. “It’s not their fault” isn’t a motivator to date someone to begin with. You date someone you are attracted to for whatever reason. Being attracted to someone who has been victimised but has never themselves victimised is very different than knowingly finding a pedophile attractive. Innocence to one’s circumstances is hardly the dealbreaker here.

Why is their bullshit always so incredibly lazy? Like they don’t even bother to pretend they could possibly believe the stuff they spew out.

The main point here was silencing rape victims. Too bad the deterrent he used was that a rape victim might not have a chance to date someone like him. This might backfire, bro.

sunnysombrera
sunnysombrera
5 years ago

Or, you know, women who are attracted to men could be willing to date men who have gone through trauma.

Which is a suitable equivalence, of course, but time will run backwards before a misogynist is able to come up with one of those.

Scaly Llama
Scaly Llama
5 years ago

I made the rookie mistake of reading through the Purple Pill thread without some handy brain bleach 😵

Ddog
Ddog
5 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw

thank you! I love dogs and never hold them accountable for their bad grammar haha 🙂

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
5 years ago

@ddog, you keep on being awesome. I hope your relationship continues to be everything you want and need it to be.

This Red Piller’s attempt at logic makes my head hurt. I’d find it easier to agree that “dating a rapist is like dating a pedophile,” because in both cases you’re talking about somebody who doesn’t respect boundaries (to put it mildly).

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

Did someone say bleach? And dogs?

comment image

http://www.xdorz.com/images/2014/05/53784fffc72e5.gif

I did this to my dog and his reaction was pretty much the same:

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Happy-GIFS.gif

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago
Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

No one really gives two shits whether or not you’re willing to date her. Because she doesn’t want to date you. Because you’re a petulant asshole with no empathy for other people. And that makes you pretty damn “risky” as a romantic partner.

Hear fucking hear. I don’t want anything to do with these shits and their ableist, sexist bullshit. Especially since I’m a rape victim who was victimized by a pedophile. They can fuck right off to the center of a volcano with this false equivalence bullshit.

Yes, it’s hard sometimes to date someone who has been raped, and yes, it’s hard sometimes to date someone who is mentally ill, either because of being raped, or having it develop by other means or traumas. It’s not always easy dealing with people who have mental illnesses when you can see them at their most vulnerable, because you have to see all the “bad” symptoms of their illnesses, and not the “good” symptoms that don’t get in the way and are quiet and hardly noticeable, or they’re “quirky”.

And I’m speaking from my own personal experience here with my own mental illnesses. I hate myself enough for them when my symptoms get really bad, so I can imagine what other people go through having to put up with me when I can barely function like is expected of me.

There are already so many people out there, friends and datemates alike, who will say “I’m here for you no matter what! <3<3<3" who will then turn around and suddenly act like the victim when you're dealing with a "bad" symptom, because they're Fair-weather Assholes.

And I really fucking appreciate people who really are there for you through all of your symptoms because of it.

This just makes me sad and angry and just really really angry. Though, I suppose I should be happy because I’m officially off this shit-stain’s radar.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
5 years ago

I like how the rape victim is a “she” and the pedophile is a “he”.

I think they’re talking about themselves here, that women should be expected to date whatever creep wants them.
comment image

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

I think it’s less about projection (though I imagine that’s some of it), and more about their own sexist views of rape with the whole “We don’t give a shit about male rape victims until We can use them to make a point” thing.

magnesium
magnesium
5 years ago

So, uh, if you shouldn’t date people at a higher than average risk for PTSD, does that mean you shouldn’t date anyone who’s served in the military? (are there any red pill vets who would agree to that?)

I mean, redpillers shouldn’t date rape victims. Or anyone. Or even just plain old interact with other humans at all until they learn to pull their heads out of their asses and recognize other people exist and matter.

Bina
5 years ago

So, if you expect a man to be willing to date a rape victim because “it wasn’t her fault,” then you should be willing to date a pedophile because “it isn’t his fault.”

O RLY?

Last I looked, rape survivors generally didn’t go around raping children.

And, newsflash: Not everyone who’s been sexually assaulted develops a traumatic complex about it. I was, I now realize, orally raped by a guy I thought was a friend. We had both had a few beers too many, and we made out. He didn’t ask if I wanted to go down on him, and I didn’t say I wanted to, either. There was no consent sought, or given. Rape? By definition, yes. I was more surprised and weirded out than anything else…and not enthused about blowing him, which meant he smartened up and put himself away before things got even weirder. I wasn’t traumatized, though, and remembering it still doesn’t fill me with negativity. Just WTF, dude? WTF?

So yeah, dude…you can stuff your “she’s damaged goods, just like a pedophile” false-equivalence crap right back up the orifice you pulled it out of. No damaged goods here. And nothing remotely like a pedophile, either.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his, she/her pronouns)
5 years ago

I think it’s less about projection (though I imagine that’s some of it), and more about their own sexist views of rape with the whole “We don’t give a shit about male rape victims until We can use them to make a point” thing.

They could have used them to make a point here. 😐 Hell, they could have said “she” for the pedophile or even “they”. It has some projection in it.

LankyYankee
LankyYankee
5 years ago

@Mike

I’ve heard the same thing around PTSD and BPD. Having known a few people with BPD it certainly fits – there was a LOT of trauma in their pasts, though I didn’t think much of the different diagnoses at the time.

A friend who was studying psychology brought the theory to my attention – a teacher had recently done a lecture about sexism in diagnoses, and the teacher included things like depression and anxiety disorders being less believed/seen/treated in men, BPD vs PTSD, and how women are often treated with an “it’s all in your head” mentality by doctors, making them less able to get direct help from therapists.

If there’s someone on here in the field, though, it would be great to have some more informed information. Mine is a few years old, and secondhand from a student.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

Maybe it’s because I’m still ruminating some fascinating issues brought up on the other thread; but I can’t fathom the pic used to illustrate this.

Why would a cat need a boat?

Would someone be kind enough to explain the pic to me? Ta.

Anomic Entropy
Anomic Entropy
5 years ago

Dear Red Pillers,

Don’t date rape victims. Sure that’s a good start.

How bout you just stop dating women. We’ve read how you treat women you date. You create more rape victims. Just stop. Go your own way. It’s for the best.

-Women

sbel
sbel
5 years ago

@Victorious Parasol,

I’d find it easier to agree that “dating a rapist is like dating a pedophile,” because in both cases you’re talking about somebody who doesn’t respect boundaries (to put it mildly).

Pedophile and child molester are often used interchangeably, but they’re not actually the same thing. One refers to attraction, the other to actions.

Your comparison is still better than comparing rape victims to pedophiles though.

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
5 years ago

Mike,
In theory, personality disorders are an inherent part of someone’s personality. But yeah, it can’t be a coincidence that BPD and histrionic personality disorder are more commonly diagnosed in women and just so happen to fit negative stereotypes about women. Same goes for men and antisocial personality disorder diagnoses. It’s also kind of problematic to assume any personality trait, disordered or not is inherent. We just aren’t advanced enough in neuroscience to determine that.

Caveat, I have a psychology degree but am rusty on the subject.

Redsilkphoenix
Redsilkphoenix
5 years ago

Heck, why would either the cat or the woman need a boat in the situation hinted at in the picture? Either way, it doesn’t make sense.

Sara
5 years ago

Love it!

Dr. NicolaLuna
Dr. NicolaLuna
5 years ago

The main point here was silencing rape victims.

100% this ^

I can’t help thinking that not having red pillers wanting to date you is one of those mysterious “rape rewards” they always go on about.

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

@Alan
Well, how is the cat supposed to cross the ocean without a boat? It would get wet.

Seriously though, I’m pretty sure that’s from a Björk video. I don’t remember a lot about it except that she seems to be in a realtionship with the cat, they have a fight, she goes out to drink. then comes home, I guess they make up and the cat becomes a giant cat an dances.
I think that’s it.

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

Yep

I’ll look for boats in the video.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

I remember a story about three French cats that went out in a boat. It was a tragedy .

Someone pulled the plug and Un, Deux, Trois, Quatre, Cinq.

brian
brian
5 years ago

David: I agree completely with the point of this post, but what’s with this phrasing: “pedophiles (potential if not necessarily actual predators)”?
EVERYONE IN THE WORLD could be described as a “potential if not necessarily actual predator,” and more to the point, given how strongly everyone here frowns on the use of “crazy” or “psycho” or “delusional” as ableist language it doesn’t seem right that the same doesn’t apply to pedophilia, which is also a psychiatric disorder recognized in the DSM-5.

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

To actually get into topic, I really wonder why this terper thought it necessary to talk about this. Is there any group of people saying that people should date rape victims? As in, actually look for rape victims and try and date them because of it?

Also, this comparison is vile, even discouting the possibility of talking about a child molester. If you have a partner who was raped, and then replace them with a pedophile, you’re not going to get the same person.

Freemage
Freemage
5 years ago

Alan: Shouldn’t that have been “four cats” for the joke to work?

Brian: Pedophiles are the literal example of a ‘potential predator’. They have an uncontrolled break in their sexuality that causes them to desire to prey on children. For virtually every other entry in the DSM, there’s a host of fashions for the behavior to manifest. But pedophilia has a nearly unique status in that its only manifestation is a desire to commit an action that is intrinsically harmful. (The closest I can think of would be sadistic personality disorder, but that hasn’t even been an official diagnosis since DSM-3. And if we lived in a universe where it was an actual diagnosis, I’d say that someone with SPD would be a ‘potential predator’, too, for much the same reason.)

Rosa: I suspect that he’s taken a common talking point for TERPers (“Never date a woman who says she’s been raped”) and gotten flack for it, so he’s pushing back against that. Of course, it’s easy to see why he’d get treated like a gross canker sore of humanity when expressing the view that way.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

@Rosa: There are PUAs and the like who would advocate for dating rape victims or other women who are suffering through trauma because they’re easily manipulated, I imagine.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

This thread is full of awesome women. I am extremely grateful that it exists.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ freemage

Don’t we need three cats so it’s ‘1,2,3 cats sank’?

Zeb Berryman
5 years ago

Wow. This… is the most angry that A post here has made me in a long time. There is so much wrong with what these assholes are saying. Like I usually at least in my head try to think of something clever to say but all I can really think of is…fuck this guy.

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

Not just any cat, looks like that’s an Abyssinian cat.

Bjork looks like she’d be fun to hang out with. Until things start getting a bit wild and stuff gets broken, or she falls down in the street. Several times. 😛

Dr Hoveiny
Dr Hoveiny
5 years ago

Brian, not to pile on, but pedophiles who’ve never acted on their desires certainly exist. It’s hard for them to find help too, for obvious reasons. Some have support groups that only abstinent pedophiles are allowed into. I think there might’ve been a guest on the Mental Illness Happiness Hour podcast talking about this.

Also, was this Redditor gracing the internet with his mind grapes for this apropos of nothing? Gee thanks. It hopefully wasn’t an actual event that spurred this, and I’d doubt it.

Dr Hoveiny
Dr Hoveiny
5 years ago

Msexception, I ran into her both times I was in Iceland!! But would never in a million years try to talk to her. Everyone who lives there is so nonchalant, like oh yeah, my neighbor. I can’t believe I didn’t recognize her in the meme, I’ve seen that video.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

In my mis-spent youth I used to work for bands. One time we had a series of meetings with a new band from Iceland about doing their lighting.

They were very nice, and we loved their creative vibe, it really tallied with our way of thinking; but the budget just wasn’t enough for what we all wanted to do, so rather than compromise, we went our separate ways.

The band was called The Sugarcubes and they had a quiet little quirky girl as their singer. She was nice but very shy.

I wonder what happened to her.

Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ dr hoveiny

There are many reasons to like Iceland, not least that they’ll divert a major road so as not to disturb the pixies; but one thing I especially like is that the Prime Minister’s home telephone number is in the local phone book.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

There are many reasons to like Iceland, not least that they’ll divert a major road so as not to disturb the pixies; but one thing I especially like is that the Prime Minister’s home telephone number is in the local phone book.

That might have something to do with the fact that Coventry has more people than Iceland, and therefore the post of Prime Minister is less a matter of national security and more a matter of “Carl, it’s your turn again.”

Cerulean (Miss A)
Cerulean (Miss A)
5 years ago

WTF did I just read?

Also, would this attitude extend to other traumas? Like, would they advocate not dating a survivor of abuse? Jackasses.

http://media0.giphy.com/media/4pMX5rJ4PYAEM/giphy.gif

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
5 years ago

I can’t decide what’s grossest: the OP’s gaslighty aspersions on the mental state of rape victims (the same tactic rapists use to nullify their victims’ testimony and silence them), the idea that rape survivors are damaged goods and therefore undateable, or the way Redpillers always respond to “hey, women who are XYZ are equally worthwhile and valuable and let’s be mindful of their struggles” with FEMINAZIS ARE TRYING TO FORCE US TO HAVE SEX WITH XYZs. (Wait, what?)

…and the search for the elusive Feminist Gotcha continues.

Dr Hoveiny
Dr Hoveiny
5 years ago

Yes! And many politicians are in metal bands or something. Lovely place.

Oh, though I had a firsthand Roosh ebook experience there. The American guys I met found out about Bang Iceland by Google autocomplete and bought it as a joke. I give them the benefit of the doubt, as they were otherwise awesome and nice, and were there for a bachelor party trip.

I remember reading it aloud to make fun of it, but was stunned when I got to the notorious rape passage. I knew what MRAs were at the time, but didn’t know how horrible PUAs had got since the days of Mystery on Mtv. He said something like “thanks to a mix of feminism and alcoholism, Icelandic girls will sleep with you within minutes of meeting you.” He still had to rape one though. Otherwise a great trip :/

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