The Purple Pill Debate subreddit is a strange little corner of the internet, a place where intrepid Blue Pillers try to logic Red Pillers into giving up their repugnant ideology, and vice versa.
The main problem with this strategy is that Red Pillers don’t really understand logic as you or I do. They’ve got their own version, and it’s pretty … weird, as one recent post in r/PurplePillDebate makes abundantly clear.
The proposition being debated: “If you expect a man to date a rape victim, then you should be willing to date a pedophile.”
Wait, what? The Red Piller advancing this, er, argument tries to explain in more detail what exactly he means:
Rape victims often develop a variety of serious psychological issues, including depression, borderline personality disorder (aka borderline insanity disorder), self-harm, alcohol and/or drug addiction, and PTSD.
People who have these serious psychological issues are at a higher risk of joblessness, homelessness, and divorce. They tend to have unstable and chaotic relationships.
Now, of course it isn’t a rape victim’s fault that they were raped, but that still doesn’t mean that it is a good idea to date a rape victim.
So far, not so good. All of the sources the poster cites as evidence for these claims about rape survivors are behind paywalls, but a quick scan of the abstracts suggest that he didn’t read them very carefully. One of the papers he cites, actually looking at the effects of childhood sexual abuse rather than rape per se, reports that, contrary to the poster’s claims,
there is insufficient evidence to confirm a relation between a history of childhood sexual abuse and a postsexual abuse syndrome and multiple or borderline personality disorder.
That said, there’s no question that rape (or any kind of sexual abuse) can be extremely traumatic, with far-reaching and long-lasting consequences. These can certainly cause issues in relationships.
But every relationship has issues, and there is absolutely no evidence that rape survivors — or the survivors of any other serious trauma — are incapable of having healthy relationships.
At this point, our Red Pill poster goes completely off the rails:
Dating someone who has serious psychological issues is risky. To illustrate how risky it is, would you date a pedophile? Pedophilia isn’t a choice. However, pedophiles have unstable lives and wouldn’t make good romantic partners.
So, if you expect a man to be willing to date a rape victim because “it wasn’t her fault,” then you should be willing to date a pedophile because “it isn’t his fault.”
Wow. There are at least two gigantic problems here. First, of course, is the inherent offensiveness of suggesting there’s some sort of moral equivalency between pedophiles (potential if not necessarily actual predators) with rape survivors (people who have themselves been victimized by predators).
Second, there’s insurrectono’s if-then logic, which is utterly inappropriate when it comes to matters of the heart, where “should” shouldn’t go.
No, Red Pillers, no one is telling you that you are obligated to date rape survivors — or, for that matter, cancer patients, or Billy Joel fans, or indeed anyone in any particular category that human beings fall into.
Indeed, if your first thought upon hearing that someone us a rape survivor is to think “ick, she’s probably all messed up,” guess what?
No one really gives two shits whether or not you’re willing to date her. Because she doesn’t want to date you. Because you’re a petulant asshole with no empathy for other people. And that makes you pretty damn “risky” as a romantic partner.
H/T — r/TheBluePill
I appreciate it that those red pillers don’t date rape victims.
I really hope they don’t get to date anyone at all! Ever.
This is one of those posts that doesn’t inspire me to anger so much as pity. This guy is just… sad. And sadder still because he doesn’t understand just how pathetic he really is.
Or, you know, women who are attracted to men could be willing to date men who have gone through trauma.
I had some pithy insult when I read the title, but having read the post… I’m just saddened.
This logic fail is a blinder. It is also SO offensive, but sufficiently absurd to negate any anger I could potentially feel.
Red Pill creeps absolutely shouldn’t be willing to date rape survivors.
Rape survivors have suffered enough already.
As a survivor of childhood rape, who suffers from PTSD, this made me feel a variety of emotions, anger, sadness and weirdly smugness.
This time last year I was convinced that because of my past that I was broken inside, that I was too fucked up to be loved, basically I believed the shit that assholes like the above spew. Luckily and thanks to a lot of great counsellors and doctors, also my amazing sisters (who even though they mainly don’t label themselves as such, are my feminist heroes) I’m doing a lot better now. The system failed me as my attacker was never brought to court and my extended family did not do much in way of support. But now despite that I can identify this shit as the total bile it is. I am in avert loving relationship at the minute, something I never would have thought was possible. As a survivor I’ve learned to accept myself finally. Which brings me to the smug part of my reaction, this shit spotted pompous ferret will NEVER get to be with someone as awesome as me and all the other amazing survivors I’ve met 🙂
@ ddog
Hope this works
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/066/552/whos-awesome.jpg
Yey, it did
(Ignore his bad grammar; that’s perhaps forgiveable in a puppy)
So, rape survivors are more likely to have mental illnesses. Pedophilia is a mental illness. Therefore, rape survivors are exactly the same as pedophiles.
Makes sense. After all, smokers are more likely to get cancer, and breast cancer is a cancer, which is why we surgically remove the breast tissue of all smokers. You know, just in case.
Just wanted to quickly note: I’m not up on current discourse around borderline personality disorder (and anecdotally, I’ve heard that doctors don’t give out this diagnosis all that much these days), but I’ve heard people theorize that borderline personality disorder is, more-or-less, a sexist classification of PTSD. Like, when a man has experienced trauma and is exhibiting the relevant symptoms, he’ll be diagnosed with PTSD, but when a woman exhibits very similar symptoms she’ll be diagnosed with BPD; the man’s symptoms are understood as having developed out of specific experiences in his life, but the woman’s symptoms are pathologized as being part of her innate personality.
But, like I said, I’m not an expert and could just be talking out of my butt. Anyone with knowledge in the field care to weigh-in?
Why is it always things like “If you should X, then you should also Y because they are both in the alphabet and therefor the same thing”?
“So, if you expect a man to be willing to date a rape victim because “it wasn’t her fault,” then you should be willing to date a pedophile because “it isn’t his fault.””
I wouldn’t expect a man to be willing to date a rape victim for the sole reason that it wasn’t her fault. Why would that be a reason to date someone? You can’t just throw in a ‘therefor’ without any genuine parallel to the situation besides “it’s not their fault”. “It’s not their fault” isn’t a motivator to date someone to begin with. You date someone you are attracted to for whatever reason. Being attracted to someone who has been victimised but has never themselves victimised is very different than knowingly finding a pedophile attractive. Innocence to one’s circumstances is hardly the dealbreaker here.
Why is their bullshit always so incredibly lazy? Like they don’t even bother to pretend they could possibly believe the stuff they spew out.
The main point here was silencing rape victims. Too bad the deterrent he used was that a rape victim might not have a chance to date someone like him. This might backfire, bro.
Which is a suitable equivalence, of course, but time will run backwards before a misogynist is able to come up with one of those.
I made the rookie mistake of reading through the Purple Pill thread without some handy brain bleach ?
@Alan Robertshaw
thank you! I love dogs and never hold them accountable for their bad grammar haha 🙂
@ddog, you keep on being awesome. I hope your relationship continues to be everything you want and need it to be.
This Red Piller’s attempt at logic makes my head hurt. I’d find it easier to agree that “dating a rapist is like dating a pedophile,” because in both cases you’re talking about somebody who doesn’t respect boundaries (to put it mildly).
Did someone say bleach? And dogs?
http://www.xdorz.com/images/2014/05/53784fffc72e5.gif
I did this to my dog and his reaction was pretty much the same:
http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Happy-GIFS.gif
Sorry to spam but I have one more greedy puppy
http://static.elmeme.me/static/uploads/images/2013/09/7600/7620_subitem_full.gif
Hear fucking hear. I don’t want anything to do with these shits and their ableist, sexist bullshit. Especially since I’m a rape victim who was victimized by a pedophile. They can fuck right off to the center of a volcano with this false equivalence bullshit.
Yes, it’s hard sometimes to date someone who has been raped, and yes, it’s hard sometimes to date someone who is mentally ill, either because of being raped, or having it develop by other means or traumas. It’s not always easy dealing with people who have mental illnesses when you can see them at their most vulnerable, because you have to see all the “bad” symptoms of their illnesses, and not the “good” symptoms that don’t get in the way and are quiet and hardly noticeable, or they’re “quirky”.
And I’m speaking from my own personal experience here with my own mental illnesses. I hate myself enough for them when my symptoms get really bad, so I can imagine what other people go through having to put up with me when I can barely function like is expected of me.
There are already so many people out there, friends and datemates alike, who will say “I’m here for you no matter what! <3<3<3" who will then turn around and suddenly act like the victim when you're dealing with a "bad" symptom, because they're Fair-weather Assholes.
And I really fucking appreciate people who really are there for you through all of your symptoms because of it.
This just makes me sad and angry and just really really angry. Though, I suppose I should be happy because I’m officially off this shit-stain’s radar.
I like how the rape victim is a “she” and the pedophile is a “he”.
I think they’re talking about themselves here, that women should be expected to date whatever creep wants them.
I think it’s less about projection (though I imagine that’s some of it), and more about their own sexist views of rape with the whole “We don’t give a shit about male rape victims until We can use them to make a point” thing.
So, uh, if you shouldn’t date people at a higher than average risk for PTSD, does that mean you shouldn’t date anyone who’s served in the military? (are there any red pill vets who would agree to that?)
I mean, redpillers shouldn’t date rape victims. Or anyone. Or even just plain old interact with other humans at all until they learn to pull their heads out of their asses and recognize other people exist and matter.
O RLY?
Last I looked, rape survivors generally didn’t go around raping children.
And, newsflash: Not everyone who’s been sexually assaulted develops a traumatic complex about it. I was, I now realize, orally raped by a guy I thought was a friend. We had both had a few beers too many, and we made out. He didn’t ask if I wanted to go down on him, and I didn’t say I wanted to, either. There was no consent sought, or given. Rape? By definition, yes. I was more surprised and weirded out than anything else…and not enthused about blowing him, which meant he smartened up and put himself away before things got even weirder. I wasn’t traumatized, though, and remembering it still doesn’t fill me with negativity. Just WTF, dude? WTF?
So yeah, dude…you can stuff your “she’s damaged goods, just like a pedophile” false-equivalence crap right back up the orifice you pulled it out of. No damaged goods here. And nothing remotely like a pedophile, either.
They could have used them to make a point here. 😐 Hell, they could have said “she” for the pedophile or even “they”. It has some projection in it.
@Mike
I’ve heard the same thing around PTSD and BPD. Having known a few people with BPD it certainly fits – there was a LOT of trauma in their pasts, though I didn’t think much of the different diagnoses at the time.
A friend who was studying psychology brought the theory to my attention – a teacher had recently done a lecture about sexism in diagnoses, and the teacher included things like depression and anxiety disorders being less believed/seen/treated in men, BPD vs PTSD, and how women are often treated with an “it’s all in your head” mentality by doctors, making them less able to get direct help from therapists.
If there’s someone on here in the field, though, it would be great to have some more informed information. Mine is a few years old, and secondhand from a student.
Maybe it’s because I’m still ruminating some fascinating issues brought up on the other thread; but I can’t fathom the pic used to illustrate this.
Why would a cat need a boat?
Would someone be kind enough to explain the pic to me? Ta.