Two of the internet’s most terrible people are engaged in a bitter grudge match that, one can only hope, leads to the utter defeat and humiliation of both of them.
In one corner, we have the excitable Dean Esmay, the former A Voice for Men Number Two who has become a formidable Twitter activist, if by “formidable” you mean “a slanderous, slur-spewing, own-goaling nitwit who really, really needs to think about switching to decaffeinated coffee and possibly getting off the internet forever because he embarrasses himself with such regularity.”
Checking with my dictionary, I see that this is not actually what “formidable” means.
Anyhoo, you may recall from my last post on Esmay that he has been loudly denouncing what he calls the “rape hysteria” in Cologne in Tweets like this one:
https://twitter.com/deanesmay/status/685029810523996160
In an irony-meter-breaking twist, Esmay has drawn a great deal of flak for this stance not so much from feminists as from an assortment of alt-right racists who want the world to believe the worst about Muslim “rapefugees.”
If you poke around on Twitter you will find Esmay being denounced as a rape apologist by such unsavory characters as Matt Forney and Roosh Valizadeh, who are, as readers of this blog know, not only repugnant misogynistic PUAs and far-right racists but also rather enthusiastic rape apologists themselves.
In a blog post, Forney expanded on the accusations and asked “Why Did Dean Esmay Call the Cologne Rape Victims ‘Liars?'”
Esmay has responded to these not-really-that-far-off accusations by screaming bloody murder and making a bunch of accusations of his own. After accusing Forney and Roosh of vile slander for suggesting that he thought that each and every one of the reports of sexual assault in Cologne were false, he went on to accuse Forney and Roosh themselves of rape.
https://twitter.com/deanesmay/status/687417655272292353
Esmay seems far more concerned about the alleged “quote-mined lies” being spread about himself than he does about the possible victims of Forney’s and Roosh’s alleged rapes.
Esmay’s blog post on the subject is more solipsistic still:
Confessed rapist Matt Forney has recently lied in public and, using Futrellian quote-mining, made it look as if I said women in Cologne lied about being raped. He knows this isn’t true, as does his cult leader RooshV, the king of the PUA rapetards and creator of the bizarre “NeoMasculinity” secular religion. Yet despite knowing the truth, and having had ample opportunity to retract his story, he and his creepy rapetard cult members keep saying it.
I’m not quie sure why Esmay thinks he’s going to convince anyone he’s not a rape apologist by calling his accusers “rapetards” — a nasty and thankfully not too widely known little portmanteau slur that AVFMers and former AVFMers like Esmay have generally applied to feminists fighting rape.
You know, I can only think of one reason to continually make a false allegation like that: Guilty men like to virtue signal by white knighting. So it appears that Matt Forney and RooshV are trying to recover some respectability by attacking innocent men. Why else with their disgusting lies about what I said on Cologne?
Now, we’ve all seen the evidence in Roosh’s own writing that has suggested to many observers that he’s a rapist. But what evidence is there against Forney?
Esmay points to a blog post of Forney’s with the appalling title “Why Girls Rarely Mean No When They Say No.” The post, which an apparently embarrassed Forney removed from his site some months ago, is as rapey as the title suggests. In it, Forney argues that “No Means Yes/Maybe/Take Me, You Sexy Beast!” and explains that
When a girl says “no” to sex or a particular sexual act, she rarely if ever means it wholeheartedly. While girls have sexual boundaries, theirs are not nearly as strong or well-defined as yours. With the right mix of persuasion, persistence, and audaciousness, you can get a girl to do just about anything you want. I know, because I’ve done it.
He follows this little confession with a story about how he once sort-of, kind-of forced sex on a “fuckbuddy” of his even though she “was in no mood to fuck.” She explicitly told him no; he removed her clothes and had sex with her anyway. “After about ten minutes,” he writes, “she started yelping like she was having her fingernails ripped out with a pair of pliers.” He kept going, nonetheless.
The twist ending? She didn’t actually charge him with rape.
Did she yell at me? Run off to the phone to call 911? Complain about how I’d ignored her wishes and fucked her anyway even though she didn’t want me to?
No: she hugged me and told me that I was “the only man on Earth who didn’t make [her] want to throw up.”
Make of that what you will.
Forney, in a blog post defending himself against Esmay’s accusations, describes this post as
a blog post I wrote a while ago and deleted, both because it was poorly-written and in poor taste (even for me), a post that has nothing to do with rape.
Esmay then brings up some other rape allegations that have been made against Forney by blogger Rachel Haywire. Haywire hasn’t accused Forney of raping her, instead claiming that Forney raped a female friend of his; according to one anonymous tipster Esmay quotes in his blog post, the boyfriend of the woman in question walked in on Forney raping her as she lay passed-out on the floor. According to the source, she didn’t remember any of it.
Forney’s defense against these accusations is similar to the one he used in his blog post — noting that the alleged victim isn’t the one making the accusations and that she’s still a friend of his. On Twitter, he’s posted photos of the two of them together, smiling. Make of that what you will.
Could the grudge match between Esmay and Forney get any uglier? I think it could, and probably will.
@Bernardo Soares
Ah, ok, thx. In that case I agree with you, no reason to assume anything.
I forgot to put in my popcorn gif earlier on. Whoops.
http://media.giphy.com/media/l41lXPwHWohc2kxGg/giphy.gif
Bina said that some of them were white and I just asked the question of how they knew? and then LindsayIrene commented that two of the men arrested were German. I wasn’t sure if their response was aimed at me but I already knew a couple of German men were arrested. If their response was aimed at me it did seem like they assumed these men were white because they were German, I didn’t assume that.
Because these groups were reported as being of north african or middle eastern appearance everywhere I’ve read. So if a couple of German men were arrested along with a bunch of men from north africa and the middle east, I assumed the German men were not white because a lot of German men have middle eastern appearance due to their ancestry.
I’m really not trying to argue with everybody here. I am just defending myself against being called racist, I am NOT saying that white men wouldn’t do this or no white men are involved. I don’t know if any white men were involved but Bina stated as a fact that some of them were white and I just asked how they knew and another person replied that two of the men arrested were German and I replied that I knew that already but doubted that they were white and then got called a racist.
@nparker:
Ugh, that Telegraph article. Puke. It is apparently beyond comprehension for these people to comprehend that a senior solicitor making a comment to a female barrister that her profile photo on a professional networking website is “stunning” could be a problem. The gist of the article seems to be that women need to be comfortable with being given a leg up because men they work with find them attractive. (And, like, dudes — perhaps it’s not just for personal reasons that they don’t want to be valued for their looks; perhaps, they, you know, care about the women for whom you’re not so eager to “hold a door open” or “compliment a new suit”. You know, the ones who aren’t the beneficiaries of a workplace environment that rewards coming to work pretty.)
No, you’re not going to be brought into HR for smiling, making eye contact, holding open a door, or complimenting a woman’s new suit, dipshits. However, if you ignore a woman’s attempts to create space or avoid eye contact with you because you are an asshole for whom a woman not being warm and friendly to you at work ruins your day; and offends you to such a degree that you decide that you must try to get a smile out of her…then, well, HR it is, and rightfully fucking so.
If you can’t give a compliment to a woman about her appearance at work without being willing to apologize if you made her uncomfortable, maybe you should just stick to … not making such comments??? Or, maybe, if you don’t make comments to the men in your office about how handsome they are, then you shouldn’t make those type of comments to the women in your office??? Is it really that fucking hard? Is it really such a big deal if you have to find other things to talk with the women in your office about than their appearance?
And are Telegraph readers similar to Daily Mail readers? That comment section is disturbing.
@ OTD
I didn’t mention that. I challenged you when you said you were in doubt that the perpetrators were white. You didn’t just ‘ask the question’ at all, you actually said that you doubt they were white. That is what I challenged.
@ littleknown
I know, right? he section really was disturbing indeed. I was actually disgusted by a national newspaper posting the article, but even more appalled by the comments. So many sickening comments were made under that article, and they all just prove feminism’s point threefold.
It was actually that comments section that solidified in my mind that I was, and wanted to be, a feminist. That was the turning point in my feminism for me, all that time ago. It was almost hilarious how much the commenters were incriminating themselves, if it were not so nauseating.
I would never have thought Telegraph readers could be so vile, but in fact they seem very much to be as bad as Daily Mail readers (at least the ones online. Of course, not all the readers over the land are bad, but its not exactly a good sign for the newspaper to attract that kind of clientele in such great numbers. It says something is very wrong with the source.)
I asked the question after Binas comment. After Lindsays comment I said I doubted that they were white and I explained why.
Like I said, I really don’t care if white men were involved or not, I am not trying to defend white men in my replies, just to defend myself against an unfair accusation of me being a white racist.
When Bina said some of them were white Germans, I asked where they got that from because I have been following this topic and hadn’t read anything about white men being involved but if there were reports of white men involved that were not getting attention, I wanted to learn more about it.
Lindsay then replied that two German men were arrested and I am guessing Lindsay assumed they were white because they are German, I replied that I already knew of two German men being arrested but that I assumed they weren’t white based on everything that was reported. That is it. I really don’t see that I made a racist assumption that these German guys weren’t white but if white guys were involved too then I would like to know, seeing as that hasn’t been reported in the places I’ve seen. just not gonna assume a man is white because he is German.
Do you really think I am racist for assuming that those two German men are probably not white? I wasn’t trying to prove anything about white men I was just asking for information about white guys involved and the news that 2 German men were arrested didn’t make any difference.
@OTD
You don’t think it’s wrong to entirely dismiss white German men being involved and think only non-white Germans would be why, exactly? I mean, right out of the gate, you say they’re probably German people of Middle Eastern ethnicity? White Germans get a pass out of this just because everyone else reportedly involved isn’t white? What?
It doesn’t matter when you asked the question. I can’t infer from things you didn’t say what you mean, only from what you did say, and you specifically said you doubted they were white. I, admittedly, am unsure what Bina meant, and maybe you meant to ask for clarification on whether she was saying they definitely were white, but I cannot infer that because what you said does not ask that. It says, instead, that you ‘doubt they were white.’ Why do you doubt this? I’ve already asked, and clarified, but you don’t seem to be responding.
That is not what I am taking issue with. I am taking issue with the fact you said you doubted they were white. Reports suggested they were of certain descent, but you have taken that to mean that all of them were, and could not be anything but. That is wrong. That is an unfair assumption.
You say you are ‘based on everything that was reported.’ The reports do not mean ‘they definitely were not white.’
For what its worth, I don’t think you’re being deliberately racist. However, you are making assumptions that indicate that you have been taken in by the pervasive racism in our culture.
I’d like to make an example. If a friend came and told me ‘I just saw, in that shop, a lot of purple iced cakes!’ Then, a second friend comes up to me and says ‘I’ve just bought some cakes from that store!’ but does not show me the cakes.
It would be silly to say ‘I doubt those cakes are pink iced.’ Nowhere in my first friend saying that a lot of cakes in the store were purple is there an indication that it is impossible for the cakes my second friend has bought to sport a different icing.
In this allegory, the cakes are the assailants. My first friend’s information was the news reports of middle eastern descent, and my second friend’s purchase represents the arrest. You are akin to a person who tells me that because of my first friend’s comment, the second friend is extremely unlikely to have pink cakes.
This might complicated matters, but perhaps the allegory could be effective.
I also can’t help being suspicious of this, that may or may not be of consequence.
This makes no sense. Are you saying white men cannot beat up other white men if there are people of a different race also beating up white men around them? Why is it unlikely that white men could have been involved just because other assailants were not white?
I see that Orange Tango Drinker is back.
We’ll be discussing tiny point after tiny point for a few pages.
Has anyone else noticed that Orange Tango Drinker and Walter are never seen at the same cocktail party? Rugby match? Supermarket grand opening?
On the plus side, I have discovered that Orange Tango is a drink.
@ Kat
Ooh! Well, their posts are of a similar style…
Washing their hair?
No! I did not dismiss white German men of being involved and never said that! I asked a question of someone who claimed white men were involved, I asked for details and someone else responded that two of the men arrested were German. I already knew of two German guys arrested along with a bunch of guys from the middle east and north africa and assumed they were not white and said so.
So if all the reports have only been that the men involved were of North african and middle eastern appearance, but two German men were arrested, I am racist for assuming these men were not white? Why?
Is Lindsay racist for assume they were white just because they are German? I’m not accusing Lindsay of being racist either btw, but we both assumed things and at least I assumed based on every report I have read from victims and witnesses reported in credible sites that all said north african/middle eastern appearance and Lindsay just assumed German=white.
what does this mean? no they don’t get a pass if white Germans were involved. Bina stated that white Germans were involved and I asked for information and in all of this I NEVER said white Germans were not involved or white men wouldn’t be part of sexual assault groups. But if two German men were arrested and we don’t know their race then why say they were white just because they are German? That is what Lindsay assumed.
No I didn’t say that right out of the gate, I asked Bina how they knew white men were part of these groping gangs and when Lindsay responded that two German guys were arrested along with 29 north african/middle eastern guys I said I knew that already and doubted they were white, and yes I later said that I had assumed they were of a middle eastern ancestry background.
So assuming a man is white because he is German is not racist because Germany is mostly white but assuming a German guy is not white because he was part of a group that was ONLY described as non white, not even mostly white, is racist? why? good grief!
Wiping their ass (very thoroughly)?
Perhaps OTD has a larger penis than Walter, and Walter has remained silent because OTD is dominating him and hasn’t said he can speak yet.
@otd
Why are you writing a thousand paragraphs about the ethnicity of some people whose ethnicity you don’t care about? Please ask yourself this question.
Because I was accused of being a white racist for a bullshit reason
You didn’t say they were “not white”. You jumped immediately to saying they were Middle Eastern. It’s not racist to think that not all German people are white, but immediately jumping to a specific ethnicity of people when reading about a crime that has reportedly non-white people committing it is prejudice as fuck.
There’s also the fact that you’re reading stuff that’s reported, not confirmed, which somehow most of the people involved are refugees? You don’t see that maybe, for some reason, people might not like refugees coming into their country and blame shit on them for any reason? Especially when they’re mostly Muslim? Seriously?
And no one said you were a white racist. No one said you were white at all.
@Pandapool
Scroll up. dhag85 and Scented Fucking Hard Chairs both defended the idea, though otd was the first one to bring it up.
@sbel
Ah, well, no one was accusing him of being white until he mentioned it himself.
I kinda hope I’ve been reading all this shit correctly because I’m tired and cranky and like arguing.
@OTD
Sorry, I didn’t see that people were accusing you of being white. I apologize. I take your word that you’re black.
no I never said all of them were of a certain descent. Bina said some of them were white German and I asked for the info and someone else replied that 2 guys were German as if it was proof that they were white.
Why is it an unfair assumption to assume the two German guys were not white if the reports had only ever said the guys were north african or middle eastern in appearance which can include some German men?
how can they join in with a group beating up random white men if they were also white? why wouldn’t they get beaten up?
Are you serious? Not everyone divides up into groups based on skin color. WTF?
Well, I mean, in his defense:
http://media.vanityfair.com/photos/55c27390169027501c6ed8f2/master/w_900,c_limit/matt-bomer-cheyenne-jackson-max-greenfield-wes-bentley-finn-wittrock.jpg
(EDIT: The joke is that white people all look a like and would get confused on who to punch, I should clarify.)
LOL
@sbel & Jackie
I did most emphatically NOT “accuse” otd of being white.
@Paradoxical Intention
Oh, hadn’t thought of that!
Which puts me in mind of the emails I sometimes receive, promising to lengthen my penis in 3 weeks.
Heck, I’m willing to give them 6 weeks — it ain’t gonna happen!
Dhag
Where were you earlier when we needed someone to take a tape measure to Norway? 🙂