Two of the internet’s most terrible people are engaged in a bitter grudge match that, one can only hope, leads to the utter defeat and humiliation of both of them.
In one corner, we have the excitable Dean Esmay, the former A Voice for Men Number Two who has become a formidable Twitter activist, if by “formidable” you mean “a slanderous, slur-spewing, own-goaling nitwit who really, really needs to think about switching to decaffeinated coffee and possibly getting off the internet forever because he embarrasses himself with such regularity.”
Checking with my dictionary, I see that this is not actually what “formidable” means.
Anyhoo, you may recall from my last post on Esmay that he has been loudly denouncing what he calls the “rape hysteria” in Cologne in Tweets like this one:
https://twitter.com/deanesmay/status/685029810523996160
In an irony-meter-breaking twist, Esmay has drawn a great deal of flak for this stance not so much from feminists as from an assortment of alt-right racists who want the world to believe the worst about Muslim “rapefugees.”
If you poke around on Twitter you will find Esmay being denounced as a rape apologist by such unsavory characters as Matt Forney and Roosh Valizadeh, who are, as readers of this blog know, not only repugnant misogynistic PUAs and far-right racists but also rather enthusiastic rape apologists themselves.
In a blog post, Forney expanded on the accusations and asked “Why Did Dean Esmay Call the Cologne Rape Victims ‘Liars?'”
Esmay has responded to these not-really-that-far-off accusations by screaming bloody murder and making a bunch of accusations of his own. After accusing Forney and Roosh of vile slander for suggesting that he thought that each and every one of the reports of sexual assault in Cologne were false, he went on to accuse Forney and Roosh themselves of rape.
https://twitter.com/deanesmay/status/687417655272292353
Esmay seems far more concerned about the alleged “quote-mined lies” being spread about himself than he does about the possible victims of Forney’s and Roosh’s alleged rapes.
Esmay’s blog post on the subject is more solipsistic still:
Confessed rapist Matt Forney has recently lied in public and, using Futrellian quote-mining, made it look as if I said women in Cologne lied about being raped. He knows this isn’t true, as does his cult leader RooshV, the king of the PUA rapetards and creator of the bizarre “NeoMasculinity” secular religion. Yet despite knowing the truth, and having had ample opportunity to retract his story, he and his creepy rapetard cult members keep saying it.
I’m not quie sure why Esmay thinks he’s going to convince anyone he’s not a rape apologist by calling his accusers “rapetards” — a nasty and thankfully not too widely known little portmanteau slur that AVFMers and former AVFMers like Esmay have generally applied to feminists fighting rape.
You know, I can only think of one reason to continually make a false allegation like that: Guilty men like to virtue signal by white knighting. So it appears that Matt Forney and RooshV are trying to recover some respectability by attacking innocent men. Why else with their disgusting lies about what I said on Cologne?
Now, we’ve all seen the evidence in Roosh’s own writing that has suggested to many observers that he’s a rapist. But what evidence is there against Forney?
Esmay points to a blog post of Forney’s with the appalling title “Why Girls Rarely Mean No When They Say No.” The post, which an apparently embarrassed Forney removed from his site some months ago, is as rapey as the title suggests. In it, Forney argues that “No Means Yes/Maybe/Take Me, You Sexy Beast!” and explains that
When a girl says “no” to sex or a particular sexual act, she rarely if ever means it wholeheartedly. While girls have sexual boundaries, theirs are not nearly as strong or well-defined as yours. With the right mix of persuasion, persistence, and audaciousness, you can get a girl to do just about anything you want. I know, because I’ve done it.
He follows this little confession with a story about how he once sort-of, kind-of forced sex on a “fuckbuddy” of his even though she “was in no mood to fuck.” She explicitly told him no; he removed her clothes and had sex with her anyway. “After about ten minutes,” he writes, “she started yelping like she was having her fingernails ripped out with a pair of pliers.” He kept going, nonetheless.
The twist ending? She didn’t actually charge him with rape.
Did she yell at me? Run off to the phone to call 911? Complain about how I’d ignored her wishes and fucked her anyway even though she didn’t want me to?
No: she hugged me and told me that I was “the only man on Earth who didn’t make [her] want to throw up.”
Make of that what you will.
Forney, in a blog post defending himself against Esmay’s accusations, describes this post as
a blog post I wrote a while ago and deleted, both because it was poorly-written and in poor taste (even for me), a post that has nothing to do with rape.
Esmay then brings up some other rape allegations that have been made against Forney by blogger Rachel Haywire. Haywire hasn’t accused Forney of raping her, instead claiming that Forney raped a female friend of his; according to one anonymous tipster Esmay quotes in his blog post, the boyfriend of the woman in question walked in on Forney raping her as she lay passed-out on the floor. According to the source, she didn’t remember any of it.
Forney’s defense against these accusations is similar to the one he used in his blog post — noting that the alleged victim isn’t the one making the accusations and that she’s still a friend of his. On Twitter, he’s posted photos of the two of them together, smiling. Make of that what you will.
Could the grudge match between Esmay and Forney get any uglier? I think it could, and probably will.
was that reply for me? I already knew about the two German men being arrested, I doubt they are white though.
I’m in the UK too but I still think of them as Opal Fruits. They are vegan in the UK which is great for me – my dislike of Haribo is just sour grapes because I can’t have them thanks to the gelatine.
Why do you doubt they were white?
@ dr nicola
He, we’re of a mind set. I’ll eat a Marathon bar in your honour. 🙂
OTD, you doubt they were white? May I ask why?
We all know why OTD doubts they were white. I mean, Germany, as you know, is a very diverse and multicultural country so anyone who lives there is automatically German.
We do indeed, but I was rather hoping OTD would incriminate themselves further.
Because I have been following this topic on news sites and have only read that the men were described as of north african or middle eastern appearance.
Yeah, some of the men were. Why does that mean all of the assaulters were?
@EJ
I’m going to go with losers all around, but I require Sparkles sweets as payment
Becuase white dudes would never grope a lady! WINK WINK WINK WINK WINK
so you think I am a white racist pretending to be black just because I assumed that those two men are probably not white? why?
The men involved were only ever described as of North African and middle eastern appearance in everything I’ve read on the topic and there are millions of Germans of middle eastern ancestry.
I also don’t see it is a likely that a couple of white German men would be able to join in with one of those groups even if they wanted to, because they were not just sexually assaulting women ,they were also beating up white men.
It doesn’t. I didn’t say none were were white, I’m just not going to assume a guy arrested there was white just because he is German, I’ll assume he is probably middle eastern ethnically .
@otd
An overwhelming majority of the manosphere is comprised of white male racists.
Because “Dozens of white racists, all pretending to be black” is the dictionary definition of #NotYourShield as stated by the #Gaters who sharted it out and that you’re constantly defending?
I’ve never said anything about gamergate on this comment board. Video games don’t interest me at all. I was defending the HBB and some other MRAs that I like but that was a while ago and I agreed not to defend the MRM on this board anymore and I haven’t done since I said that.
so if I’ve only seen these groups attackers described as north african and middle eastern, not just an overwhelming majority, I should still assume a German man arrested as part of these groups is white otherwise its racist?
Well, isn’t that special.
Strangely rewarding to see misogynist rapists / rape apologists accuse each other of, wait for it, being rapists and rape apologists. In the process, they not only expose each other’s crimes and dirty deeds, but also reveal that they actually do understand what rape is, even though they pretend not to when it suits them.
Moocow:
Ugh, Karen Straughan. That’s a special kind of ugly.
But I chuckled despite myself, reading how just fundamentalist imams accuse her fellow travelers of raping and sexually degrading women. She quickly amended it by adding feminists, SJW, and other unsavory types, and, generally, people to that group. The vast conspiracy of humanity against the manosphere’s rapists, aka “human rights activists.”
I know I’m a little late to the Disney villain party, and I couldn’t find a gif for this, but the most MRA-appropriate Disney villain of them all:
I would tend to assume that they’re not white* either. Not because “white men wouldn’t do that!” but because the majority of the identified people are immigrants from a handful of countries. So I’d tend to assume that the rest of the group probably has some connection to immigrants from those countries as well. And the simplest connection would be parents/grandparents are immigrants too, from north african / middle eastern countries.
I may be wrong of course. I haven’t been following the news on this at all. I had no idea that they had identified any of the attackers, I’m just going based on what you all posted in this thread.
*Of course, this is assuming that you classify people from Iran, etc as non-white, which is kinda debatable.
@sbel and re: suspects in Cologne
Afaik, no attackers have been identified. The 31 suspects were/are suspects, nothing more; it seems that the number has actually gone down to 23. Two asylum seekers who had been questioned in connection to the events have been released and cleared of all charges.
The whole refugee angle comes from eyewitnesses who describes the attackers as “north african/middle eastern”, which, as others have mentioned, actually doesn’t exclude them being German, as there are many people of middle eastern descent living here in the second or third generations, having lived their whole lives in Germany, being German citizens and speaking German as their first language.
There were also reports that some of the stolen goods (mostly mobile phones) have turned up in refugee centres or “in their vicinity” (whatever that’s supposed to mean), which also doesn’t mean anything, as refugees are an obvious consumer base for second hand, cheap mobile phones.
These spurious connections mean, of course, that the Police is searching for their suspects in these communities, but as I said, they alread had to release some of them. Just because Police and media are racists making racist assumptions, doesn’t mean it’s true.
I believe the eyewitnesses, but most Germans would probably see a Greek or Spanish person and identify them as “Middle Eastern”.
There is some serious othering going on, and it translates directy to more and escalated violence against refugees.
@OTD:
fuck off with your racist shit. “Ethnically middle eastern”, yeah right…
how is that racist? middle eastern isn’t an ethnic group so that wasn’t the right wording, I meant of ME ancestry. But I don’t see how that is racist?
@ OTD
I never said you should assume there was someone who was white, I asked why you said that you doubt the people arrested were.
Again, why assume they are middle eastern if you’re not being racist? I’m quite tired with nonsensical excuses for racism. Just because they’ve been reported to be of a particular race, it hasn’t actually been confirmed.
The news reports I’ve seen have been from reputable sources and never once do they say the attackers were of a particular race, they all say ‘they are said to have been’ or ‘witnessed to have been.’ None of them say the reports are true or false, and none of them assume they are true.
But you didn’t say that, you said ‘ethnically.’ I appreciate you may not have meant what it looked like you said, but its still unclear as to what you did mean. And why mention it if its not an ethnic group, when that was specifically what we were discussing?
Jeeby-creeby, @OTD, is it really so hard to imagine that some of them could have been white? Go look at the statistics on rape and it’ll show that – yes, white people do it to, imagine that.
Anyone asserting “They’re all immigrants” is trying to paint a narrative of “all immigrants/foreigners/PoC’s are evil”, anyways. Even if the perpetrators are all immigrants, they represent an itty-bitty-tiny-minuscule slice of the immigrant population, and are statistically inconsequential for describing said population.
Said another way – you have to weigh these horrible events against all of the horrible events perpetrated by other cultures and groups if you really want to play the “who’s-most-hateful” game. And, guess what – white people don’t come up so pretty in that game, either.
“Horrible sexual assaults happened in Cologne” is the important part. If you’re focusing on “It’s immigrants what done it!” then you’re either a) being distracted by horrible racists, or b) are a horrible racist. Pick one.
(And yes, that is an intentional false dilemma at the end! :3 )