#alanrickman pic.twitter.com/4WXwnoUtM7
— Emma Watson (@EmmaWatson) January 14, 2016
Earlier today, as you no doubt have heard, legendary British actor Alan Rickman passed away, at age 69, from cancer. Actress and activist Emma Watson, who had worked with Rickman on numerous Harry Potter films over the years, paid tribute to a man she had considered a friend, writing on Facebook that she felt
lucky to have worked and spent time with such a special man and actor. I’ll really miss our conversations. RIP Alan. We love you.
Watson followed up her tribute by posting a number of quotes from Rickman on Twitter, including the one above.
And that was all it took to rouse the vast internet antifeminist troll army, who took to Twitter to attack Watson for supposedly “exploiting” Rickman’s death to push her evil man-hating agenda. They called her a bitch, a feminazi, a whore, a tw*t, and of course an SJW; they dropped the c-word so many times I fear it might be permanently broken.
Never mind that the “agenda” she was supposedly pushing was in fact Rickman’s agenda too. She didn’t make up the quote; they were his actual words, from an interview he gave to Australian chat show One Plus One. Watson was remembering Rickman as the feminist he was proud to be.
Perhaps the most offensive Tweet of the day came from the unlovely and untalented “journalist” Milo Yiannopoulos of Breitbart. Several days ago, you may recall, Milo attempted to use David Bowie’s death as a way to get some cheap publicity for himself; he rather outdid himself in this department today with this insensate Tweet:
I told you feminism was cancer pic.twitter.com/syKFBkF3cG
— Milo Yiannopoulos (@Nero) January 14, 2016
Congratulations, Milo; you’ve won today’s Worst Person on the Internet award.
Delete your account.
@ kat
One of my Glaswegian friends says that the difference between Glasgow and England is that Glaswegians are rude but friendly and the English are polite but unfriendly.
So a Glaswegian might greet a stranger with “How are you doing you wee (slur)?” As opposed to an English person’s “Please step aside sir, I would prefer not to be bothered by you today”
Must confess I have very happy memories of Glasgow, especially gigs at the Barrowlands.
@ EJ
With the caveat that I’m a bloke I would venture that the use of “lady” depends on context. It can of of course use be used in a patronising way “Calm down ladies, no need to get hysterical”; but none of my female friends, pretty much all of whom are feminists, have any problem with things like “what are you ladies up to tonight?”
It’s a bit like “girl”. Again it can be used in a condescending way but, especially when used in sporting situations, it seems to be inoffensive. I’m involved in Sport England’s “This Girl Can” campaign and that’s been monumentally popular with loads of women, none of whom have even commented on the name. Of course there’s a parity thing, we’ll say of male footballers “the boys did well”, so “you go girls!” in relation to the England women’s team isn’t singling them out or infantilising their efforts.
As an aside, in the fighting community a lot of the women have adopted “hits like a girl” very much as a positive motto.
@ Jo
The “if it’s offensive in any country we won’t use it approach” is the one adopted here, and that rule is applied consistently. I once mentioned to David that “ponce” had certain negative connotations in the UK and he immediately edited his post. If David abides by the rules of this site then surely you can too?
Jo claims discrimination for the c-word being censored in the headline, claiming it’s not offensive in the UK.
Jo complains that responses to the post lump all British feminists together as if they were one.
Anyone else see the contradiction with this?
British feminist here: I find the c word perfectly acceptable as a long-standing anatomical expression (used by Chaucer amongst others).
I find the c word highly offensive when used as an insult.
I do not seem to be alone in this.
(As a linguist and student of social history I find it fascinating how the word went from merely descriptive to (in Groce’s dictionary of slang) “_ : a nasty word for a nasty thing” – the word not even printable.)
Anyway, RIP Alan Rickman, a fine actor, a socialist and a feminist ally. Like Bowie he was one of the kids from poorer backgrounds who benefited – and benefited all of us – thanks to free college education and the huge expansion of Art schools and Drama schools that happened in this country in the 50s and 60s. Which is now almost at an end: there will soon be no British actors and musicians without wealthy families and public school (= private school) educations.
I think this is an important point. Using slurs like this doesn’t automatically make them inoffensive. If anything, it highlights their offensiveness because you’re using it as a joke. And, as others have mentioned, the way you speak to your friends is very different from the way you speak to strangers. Your friends may be fine with it, but not everyone is. A stranger on the internet saying that a word offends them is not an attack on you. They are merely saying that the word makes them uncomfortable. Continuing to insist that you should be able to use that word is at best rude and at worst harassment.
Did you ever think that the reason you have to explain this so much is because the word actually is sexist? You say that it’s applied in a gender neutral way, but that doesn’t make it less sexist. Calling a woman a c*nt reduces her to her vagina and implies that there is something shameful about it (and, by extension, that there is something shameful about being a woman). Similarly, calling a man a c*nt is insulting him by comparing him to an body part associated with women, implying that there is something shameful about being a woman. There are also a number of very insulting and damaging ways that the word could be directed at trans individuals. Regardless of who the word is directed at, it is still sexist and insulting because it is based on the premise that there is something shameful about vaginas or having a vagina (a body part associated with women).
I know I’ve posted this video here before, but I thought I’d share it again. Skip to about 3:20 for the discussion of the word c*nt. Also, this video is very NSFW.
I may be overvaluing my own experiences, but to a man in the UK, “pussy” might seem like a more gendered term because it is used to mean “weak/submissive/not-manly” – while “c*nt” and “twat” have become general-purpose “awful/foolish/annoying person”.
But it’s only because “c*nt” is used for “worst of the worst” that it becomes a humourous overreaction to eg. call a close friend one for being slightly inconsiderate. It’s telling that they’re all considered stronger swears than “dick”, “bellend”, or any other synonym for “penis”, regardless of who’s being called one.
Basement dwellers just doing basement dweller things. When did men become so whiny? and insecure
Exxtraordinary.
Feminists in the UK are trying to reclaim the c-word but Brits have no concept of freedom of speech therefore trolling.
The c-word is not inherently sexist therefore using it to insult Watson in a sexist context is not sexist.
I linked directly to a post dated this week but I am apparently trying to pretend I’ve been commenting for 6 years. Reading the content is apparently far too much like hard work.
I haven’t used the c-word in anger but it is offensive of me to use it (in censored form) when commenting on an article which uses “c-word” in its title.
Fair point about generalising to all UK feminists, there are plenty of weird ones. 😉 <- that smiley indicates a joke in case anyone wants to kick off for no reason.
Alan Robertshaw, I agree completely. The sports thing is a good example of exactly this rule-based vs context-based confusion. There was a Twitter storm during the 2012 Olympics because they were referring to the female swimmers as girls rather than women. But they were referring to the male swimmers as boys and it's not abnormal in sports. This is people who can remember a rule without understanding why it exists simply applying it without thought and effectively banning words for no good reason. And making us all look stupid by association.
Stupid controversies over Baa Baa Black Sheep is another one. The word used to describe someone's skin colour is suddenly offensive? What planet are these people on? It's almost like they are doing this out of some kind of liberal guilt with zero insight or willingness to get to grips. The British Left is plagued by this nonsense. Everyone else just fucks off home when it gets silly and don't come back.
Every single language in the world uses body parts as cusses. It is not inherently sexist unless the term originates from and is only ever used for the purpose of targeting specific people and not just anyone who happens to have pissed you off.
I am not demanding US sites suddenly start using the word. In the UK it is generally censored on general interest forums and the tabloid press. But it is absolutely not universally considered sexist and Eve Ensler (Vagina Monologues) is an American so the idea is not exactly alien across the pond: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jun/14/comment.gender
Chance gone for a interesting discussion, always tricky when you're new to a place, but really, 90% of the reaction here is drivel, thought-free drivel. Reaching for reasons to hate. Brilliant.
Alan:
Us Londoners are apparently half-way between England and Glasgow, then. Fackin ell.
I’ll admit I’ve never really watched anything Rickman was in (except Harry Potter back when I was a kid) but this post actually got me to do some research on him. Shame such a great guy had to go so early.
@ moggie
I lived in London for 15 years and your post has reminded me of a time my Belgian Shepherd jumped out of my first floor window (that’s the second floor for our colonial cousins) and narrowly missed landing on one of my neighbours.
You’ll be able to imagine his comment with the appropriate East London/Essex Borders accent.
“Fuckin’ ‘Ell. It’s raining bleedin’ Alsatians!”
Shorter Jo:
“This word is not sexist unless its usage precisely meets these criteria which I have just pulled out of my ass specifically to excuse myself from having to reconsider my own usage of it.”
http://i.imgur.com/UFZMylP.jpg
Shut up, Jo.
Christ, they’re like a white guy arguing why he should be allowed to use the n-word.
Now I remember why I don’t post on this site… Disagreeing with someone is one thing. Calling out trolling is one thing. Dogpiling for two pages is just needless and silly.
Jo,
The word isn’t even banned here. David just doesn’t use it in the post titles for reasons that he explained to you already.
Stop whining about how you wanted a “discussion” and didn’t get one. Did it ever occur to you that nobody asked you for a debate on this issue? We do respectfully debate and discuss things here. All the damn time. But these conversations happen organically. Not because someone we don’t know barges in here to complain about how we’re doing feminism wrong and you’re how put you are by having to be sensitive to other people.
You are clearly either trolling or you’re shit at communication. I still suspect the former. If it’s the latter, stop blaming us for coming off badly, apologize, cease posting for a few days, then come back and make an effort to engage us respectfully. If you’re truly here in good faith, you can turn it around.
Of course, I suspect that in your universe, a discussion entails everybody else just agreeing with you and praising your wisdom. So I’m not holding out much hope for you. Refusing to engage with anyone of the points we’ve made and just complaining about how terrible we are is not a good indication of sincerity.
Much as I love chortling at the ad hominems of lazy thinkers and those who hate reading, is it really worth the effort of tapping the keys?
What do you get out of throwing out content-free insults? It’s like a mirror bloody image of those you oppose. Browbeat them into submission, that will definitely win the day and not make feminism into some joke of a subculture where you have to consult a proscribed list of words before expressing a thought.
Jo: You know, if you wanted an interesting conversation about these issues, here’s a way you might have tried to open it:
“Kind of off-topic, but apropos of the title, I wonder why the c-word and the p-word have such different receptions/connotations? Generally the p-word doesn’t have to be censored while the c-word does (in the US). Also, they are treated differently in the US versus the UK (and other places), where ‘c***’ is more gender-neutral than ‘p****’.”
But instead you had to drag in “I’m so reluctant to follow your site’s rules” and “I’m sick of talking about how the c-word is different in the UK” — which, if you’re sick of talking about it, why start a thread about it?
And later you talk about being “interested in getting to the root of these problems and finding useful answers”. But I can’t figure out what you think is the problem. People being offended by the c-word when it’s not being intended in a derogatory/sexist way? People from different cultures having different opinions about things? It sounded like you thought the problem was “I have to not say the c-word in US-centric circles” so that’s what people reacted to. If the problem isn’t well-defined, then yeah, we can’t find useful answers.
Ding! I spot a Point Refuted A Thousand Times. This urban myth is popular among Brits who resent being told to think about what they’re saying.
https://pcgonemadgonemad.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/ (quotes WHTM-unfriendly use of “mad” and “crazy”, as indicated by the URL)
You accuse others of lazy thinking when your entire argument is literally “that word isn’t sexist because my friends and I use it a lot”? You’re adorable.
First-time poster delurking here.
I’m not wishing to derail, but the discussion of the use of genitalia as insults has me wondering: do Americans use ‘vagina’ as a reference to the whole female genitalia? It seems so. I’ve always thought it referred to purely the canal through which babies are delivered. The external parts are called the ‘vulva’ and the words ‘cunt’ and ‘twat’ refer to that.
The comedian David Baddiel once (twenty years ago) opined that the reason ‘cunt’ was considered so offensive was because of the way it sounded. Hard consonants sound far more offensive than softer words.
I’m from the UK and I never hear it used affectionately. I also only ever hear it used to insult men. It’s rarely heard on TV it’s that bad.
It’s sad that a thread about Alan Rickman’s death has become a discussion about this but I’m curious to know if e.g. a woman visiting a doctor would refer to her vulva as her vagina or vice versa. Is this universal?
And I want to add my respects for Alan Rickman and his work. Sad loss.
Personally I think ‘turd sandwich’ is a good insult.
Guys, can we not dogpile Jo please? That’s why Jo’s on the defensive. Jo’s first post was pretty polite and I’d like to remind everyone that I do see a little hint of intolerance to context in our comments.
That said, Jo, please stop. A lot of what you’re saying is utterly unacceptable, even if you are angry. You have actually crossed a line now.
You may have had a good point in there, but that does not entitle you to do that.
@ Marshmallow
This says what I wanted to say probably much better.
How exactly are we dogpiling? If zie made one comment and 20 people jumped in to rip it to shreds, that would be dogpiling. Instead zie has been spending the last several hours doubling down, accusing us of being anti-intellectual and claiming nobody has addressed zir points even though several people did.
And how is it polite to come to a post about misogynists harassing Emma Watson while she’s grieving by among other things calling her a cunts and complaining about how much of a burden it is to not call people cunts here?
Do I just have a completely different concept of etiquette? Because that’s not politeness in my world.
So, Jo is allowed to wander into an established community and wave their ignorance around like a flag and those who are sick to death of hearing the same facile arguments in favor of bigotry have to have limitless patience? At what point will it be OK for marginalized groups to stop coddling the precious widdle feefees of people from dominant groups who consider learning about a topic before they speak to be an unreasonable expectation?
I like the word “lady.” I don’t like the c-word; I’m not able to disentangle it from the vicious way I’ve heard it used to hurt women, including me.
The depth of my grief at the loss of Alan Rickman has surprised me. It’s shocking, especially right after David Bowie’s death. I adored Alan Rickman and am very sad that he is gone.
Why. Why? Why have you started this discussion on a post about misogynists flinging the c-word at a woman for being proud of her friend, who has just died, for his own proud feminism? What part of that was a good idea? “Sure, yeah, a bunch of dudes are flinging misogynistic insults at a grieving woman for no damn reason, but it’s REALLY IMPORTANT for people to know that I don’t personally consider the term those misogynists are using sexist in all contexts.” This is the worst possible use of your time. Go learn to juggle or something.
Point of interest: my local dialect of English uses “you guys” as the 2nd person plural, kind of how “y’all” is used in the Southern US.* I used to use that phrase all of the time on here, until someone said they were really fucking sick and tired of being referred to as “guys.” Rather than read that and throw a tantrum about how it’s totally okay to say that here, thank you very much, it made me consider how my words were affecting people from different speech communities. I’ve tried to avoid the phrase online ever since. (I’ve probably slipped up a few times.)
What I haven’t done is made any changes to my regular spoken language. That’s way too high a burden to place on myself; and anyway, the vast majority of people I speak to in a day share my dialect, so it doesn’t stick out to them. Nobody is asking you to completely change how you communicate with your friends. We’re just asking you not to do it fucking here. It’s not hard.
Also, unlike you, I don’t shy away from the sexist underpinnings of my language. I acknowledge that the reason “you guys” became the plural is because we consider men to be default human beings, and I acknowledge that I’m perpetuating that every time I use it. I forgive myself for that negative contribution to the world because it’s simply too hard to never use an important piece of my grammar. It’s impossible to be a perfect feminist all the time; we have to make allowances for real life. But lying to ourselves about it just causes more harm.
*although not exactly, as they also have all y’all, and we have no equivalent for that.