Jimmy Kimmel Mocks Return of Kings With A More Manly Version of The Force Awakens

@History Nerd:

“It’s easy to mock Manosphereans for their ridiculous views, but their views are internally consistent and appeal to a lot of people. RoK and Aurini actually believe this stuff.”

This is why I think it’s important to discuss them in the light of day. Not because Aurini or people at RoK are buying this stuff, they are the voicetrous oddballs. But because regular guys (and sometimes women) who grew up with sexist beliefs (on both men and women) with frustrations of their own might resonate with this awfulness. I personally am friends with male feminists who share me their stories about how they very nearly almost became MRAs because they read this shit and went like ‘Hell yeah!’. These men luckily are also not your Aurinis so they had alarms going at some point.

They DO appeal to your regular folk because sexism (again, on any gender) is rampant and many people need a place to put their anger and frustration in. I wouldn’t belittle the trap these groups are for impressionable, insecure people.

I call my friends who are sex workers that because they asked me to, as do lots of writers, podcasters, and activists whose work I follow. I advocate for ther profession to be legalized because that is what they want.
Most garment workers are slaves, that doesnt make garmen working inherently slavery. Same with farming, countless other examples.
Its about allowing adults choices and control, whch is proven to work better than demonizing & banning their work.

I hate Wikipedia with a burning passion, but there are some people- the sockpuppet investigators- who just blow my mind with how in depth their investigations are. (Kind of like David investigating the manosphere.)

@nparker

The gist of it is the one guy takes issue with the fact that the editors keep rejecting the sources used to create the original (hilariously pro-MTGOW) draft of the page, then when it’s pointed out that this has been done in line with WP standards for reliable sources he takes issue with the standards themselves and asserts that the feminism page also violates those standards, then when it’s pointed out that it in fact does not violate those standards and also this is the wrong place to bring up disagreements over standards, he starts feigning confusion over some grammatical nitpick, insulting the editors, and generally refusing to acknowledge anyone’s points.

So, I guess pretty par for the course as far as discussion-stifling bad-faith manosphere asshats go.

The gist of it is the one guy takes issue with the fact that the editors keep rejecting the sources used to create the original (hilariously pro-MTGOW) draft of the page …

Bonus: Including one of Milo Yiannopoulos’ Breitbart farticles.

luzbelitx

when I put it in context, they don’t seem to be bothered by sex trafficking at all. In fact, they insist in every space they speak, that human trafficking has “NOTHING” to do with sex work, which is a big fallacy at the very least.

Oh dear.

Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.

I advocate for ther profession to be legalized because that is what they want.

I can understand that.

I advocate for banning consumption and empowering women in prostitution, and most important dismantling the trafficking networks which often include politicians, police officers and chiefs, powerful business men, etc. because that is what the victims and I want.

Most garment workers are slaves, that doesnt make garmen working inherently slavery. Same with farming, countless other examples.

This is a common argument, so let me tell you where I’m coming from.

I live in a country in which garments and farming by literal slave labor are both produced and consumed. Latin America also provides about a third of the trafficked women and girls for prostitution consumed in Europe.

The thing is, today the biggest industry which uses slave labor, is human trafficking of women and girls for prostitution. By a long, long distance.

It’s one of the largest and fastest growing illegal/semi-legal industries, along with “cool kids” like drug traffic and gun traffic.

Sweatshops and farming? Also horribly and inexcusably affected by slavery, but in a global scale they are near to insignificant by comparison. And usually they don’t include the gendered sexual violence to the degree that is seen in sex slavery.

So no, farming and clothes-making are not inherently slavery, and maybe neither would be prostitution in a world in which women are not subject to sexual violence all the damn time. But that’s not the world we live in.

It may not be inherently slavery but it is inherently harmful to prostitutes, women and society at large.

is proven to work better than demonizing & banning their work.

No one here that I know of has suggested demonizing nor punishing prostitutes.

It’s not their work we intend to ban, it’s the consumers behavior that is unacceptable given the global situation of both women and sex workers.

Luzbelitx

The thing is, today the biggest industry which uses slave labor, is human trafficking of women and girls for prostitution. By a long, long distance.

This appears to not be the case according to the best figuresI can find. ~ 22% of human trafficking is for purposes of sexual exploitation, while ~25% of victims are made to work in agriculture, ~24% in domestic servitude, & the rest in mining, manufactering, &construction principally.

In no case are trafficking victims helped by laws which make them liable to prosecution if they approach the authorities for aid, and while prostitution laws are a major factor, immigration laws are a bigger one.

Probably not going to be back on this thread to check replies later but I’d like to offer my perspective on the sex work issue.

Here in NSW prostitution is legal so long as it takes place in a licensed brothel. Strict controls on licensing affect where and how many brothels can be.

There have been some unambiguous benefits to this legal framework: street solicitation has been more or less eradicated, legitimate brothels are subject to health, safety and workplace standards, there have been cases where women have been able to report failings in standards and police work is more focused on trafficking than chasing johns.

Any other benefit claimed is sketchy at best, statistical collection in this area will always be poor.

The main flaws as it stands:
– enforcement falls to police, there is no dedicated regulatory agency that would be more well resourced, specialised and able to make reform recommendations. Police tend to rotely enforce the laws as they are and lack any sensitivity to the issues.
– enforcement of license conditions and getting courts to shut down illegal brothels (“massage parlours”) falls to local councils who usually have to hire private investigators for this.
– the migration status of women is the primary means of enslaving women and keeping them from authorities with deportation threats. Immigration officials have proven shockingly callous on this front. Reforms allowing women in such situations to approach authorities and make a refugee claim would help this, but Aus is one of the worst places on refugee rights in the developed world.
– forced drug addictions are used to enslave women to sex work and prevent them from approaching the authorities or escaping. While it is not illegal to take drugs (intoxication is not allowed as evidence of prior possession so that people can go to hospital without being arrested), health services for the addicted are woefully inadequate and police can be highly insensitive and unhelpful to addicts. Treating drugs as a health issue would do a lot on this front.
– there is no “internal affairs” type agency independent from police to prevent corruption of councils/cops/immigration by sex traffickers, we rely purely on police to investigate themselves and others.
– Workplace conditions are often below legally required standards (true of most mid to low paid service industries unfortunately) because of inadequate resourcing of avenues for complaint. Unlike other industries however the media is not an available saving grace.

In the end I’m not sure what system I could realistically advocate for, there’s a complex intersection of immigration, drug, health, workplace conditions, corruption, sex, gender and enforcement issues. I only know how to advocate for an improvement over how things are.

To that end I would say don’t oppose regulation policies because you want elimination policies, accept any improvement that can be made without abandoning your ultimate goal.

I couldn’t help but notice that the sex-workers would never, ever -like EVER- join sides with people who were trying to rescue women kidnapped for trafficking and bring down pimps and brothels (most of these people are friends and families of victims, who had to do the work themselves while the State looked away or was an accomplice).

In fact, the discourse from sex workers in Argentina is way more anti-abolitionist than it is anti-exploitation They made anti-sexual exploitation feminists their chosen enemy, instead of the mafias behind sex trafficking networks.

AMMAR (which I believe to the sex workers group from Argentina you have mentioned) is a member of the Latin American sex worker’s group RedTraSex. RedtraSex publishes a pamphlet about this issue*.

They argue that anti-trafficking laws in Latin America are often used to harass sex workers and even to de facto criminalize them. They say that women who have banded together by choice have been charged with trafficking one another; that the search for trafficked women gives police a pretext to raid the places where sex workers do business and even to forcibly remove women in the name of “rescue;” and that police officers routinely steal money and papers from sex workers in the guise of “evidence.”

They also argue that most proposed anti-trafficking measures do little to help the women who are actually being trafficked. Women rescued from international trafficking are being deported to the places they were trafficked from in the first place. Those who aren’t deported are seeing anti-trafficking money go to police forces but not to social workers or health services.

http://www.redtrasex.org/publicaciones/8-reazons/index.html

@Orion

Yes! AMMAR is one of the main groups here.

It also sort of broke up after one of the leaders in Buenos Aires was found using their union as a cover up for traffickers.

Currently we have AMMAR on one hand, and AMADH, a mix of sex workers and traffic survivors who want to ban the consumption of women’s bodies.

They argue that anti-trafficking laws in Latin America are often used to harass sex workers and even to de facto criminalize them.

Well, the thing is, those who criminalize them de facto are the police.

We have a HUGE police problem here, they have a lot of power, they have guns, they are partners in crime with durgs and humans traffickers… they are an ugly part of our society.

But by fighting the law (which does NOT criminalize sex workers nor victims) and giving a pass to the police (which hardly follow any law at all, unless they feel like it) is a not so subtle siding with the pimps and leaving victims on their own.

They say that women who have banded together by choice have been charged with trafficking one another;

Well, I know in at least some of the cases, they were proven to be trafficking one another.

That the search for trafficked women gives police a pretext to raid the places where sex workers do business and even to forcibly remove women in the name of “rescue

;”

That is true also to some extent, the thing is “removed women” are not (or shouldn’t be according to the law) arrested, they are supposed to get assistance, a place to live and a way to restart their lives. It might be an inconvenience, but it’s not exactly being criminalized.

nd that police officers routinely steal money and papers from sex workers in the guise of “evidence.”

See “police problem, why are you attacking the law” above.

They also argue that most proposed anti-trafficking measures do little to help the women who are actually being trafficked

We have rescued thousands of women and girls in the past 6 years. It is true there haven’t been enough resources granted to give them shelter and an opportunity to start over.

The survivors themselves are demanding this has to be fixed, so why are sex workers attacking the law instead of joining forces to make the demand stronger?

Those who aren’t deported are seeing anti-trafficking money go to police forces but not to social workers or health services.

This is not an absolute stance, but yes, governments here love giving money to the police.

No, they don’t really love it, but they have to deal with an organized armed force which works like a maffia and WITH the maffia.

This is getting worse every hour since the conservative wanna-be-Trump asshole of a president we have now has assumed.

The previous government may not have perfectly pulled off the anti-traffic trick, but the new government is actually partner of traffickers.

The only defense we have now, feeble and fragile, is the anti-traffic law. Police is not going to be any kinder to sex workers in the years to come, and the strength they might have collected by joining the victims, they wasted fighting them.

I do know it’s a complicated issue, and I know sex workers in Argentina do not represent sex workers everywhere.

But I’m glad you chose to look for information and keep asking, we do need all the visibility we can manage!

Oh come on, let’s not give our friends such hyperbole. On the scale of evil, Macri is way below Trump

That’s why I added the “wanna-be”.

Plus, he’s in fact a friend of Trump, who recommended him as a president (!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te_GvaUIT4s

Regarding traffickers:

There is this picture with Gabriel Conde, fugitive of justice and partner or Raul Martins, one of the most powerful traffickers.

http://www.diarioregistrado.com/upload/news/diarioregistrado/5635288af222a.jpg

Here’s a report from La Alameda, an NGO against trafficking:

https://laalameda.wordpress.com/2012/01/11/el-mafioso-raul-martins-financio-la-campana-de-mauricio-macri/

Do you have any evidence that doesn’t come from ultra-Kirchnerist media*?

I’d need to know what do you consider “ultra-Kirchnerist media” to answer that…

the media allied with our previous government, who is a little too fond of fearmongering and demonizing any opposition.

We’ll probably disagree here, but I see it the other way around.

Powerful media (historically allied to economic groups behind every single coup d’etat in the past century) construed any media non-hostile to Kirchnerism as “ultra” “extreme” “fanatic” etc.

But the “ultra-Kirchnerist media”, even if we take mass media’s claims at face value, is a recent phenomenon: no more than 12 years old.

The media making the claims that Kirchnerists want to fearmonger and demonize, have actually been around for centuries, and are partners of other monopolies, like food production and financial market leaders.

The truth is, elections went by, traditional media are still standing strong (and are growing lager and more powerful), while “ultra-Kirchnerist media” was made mainly of small cooperative media,
who now risk disappearance by persecution and economic asphyxia, and the State channels which are now in control of the new government and seem to replicate *exactly* what mass media are showing (which most definitely did NOT happen with the previous government)

I could go on about this, but I made my point, so I’ll wait your answer and we’ll go on from here, if you’re interested 🙂