Categories
cuckolding evil SJWs misogyny racism red pill return of kings rhymes with roosh

Jimmy Kimmel Mocks Return of Kings With A More Manly Version of The Force Awakens

A big congratulations is in order for odious Red Pill dirtbag Roosh Valizadeh and all his equally odious followers: Return of Kings is now not only the laughingstock of the internet but of television as well!

(And, yes, Return of Kings isn’t a Men’s Rights site per se, bla bla bla; they just agree with MRAs on about 90 percent of everything.)

Naturally, Roosh’s fanboys are crying “cuck!” And making even bigger idiots of themselves by trying and failing to get a #CuckKimmel hashtag trending on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/QuintusCurtius/status/684811701661773824

https://twitter.com/rooshv/status/684819057955205120

https://twitter.com/QuintusCurtius/status/684812454216380416

https://twitter.com/QuintusCurtius/status/684812627726307328

https://twitter.com/GmacGame/status/684837305417351168

Great work, fellas! I’m sure these HILARIOUS and not at all incomprehensible tweets will win the masses over to your side.

H/T — Several people tipped me off to this one; thanks especially to ND Hall, who pointed me to the Roosh fanboy tweets as well.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

138 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
nparker
nparker
4 years ago

Goodness, I don’t like the way the talk page is set out. My brain can’t work out who’s who and who’s saying what and who is the MGTOW guy. I don’t understand the users’ discussion of the article. Could anyone help?

I think Wikipedia should have a set layout for these talk pages, imho. Or maybe I’m just being thick (I am very tired)

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
4 years ago

@History Nerd:

“It’s easy to mock Manosphereans for their ridiculous views, but their views are internally consistent and appeal to a lot of people. RoK and Aurini actually believe this stuff.”

This is why I think it’s important to discuss them in the light of day. Not because Aurini or people at RoK are buying this stuff, they are the voicetrous oddballs. But because regular guys (and sometimes women) who grew up with sexist beliefs (on both men and women) with frustrations of their own might resonate with this awfulness. I personally am friends with male feminists who share me their stories about how they very nearly almost became MRAs because they read this shit and went like ‘Hell yeah!’. These men luckily are also not your Aurinis so they had alarms going at some point.

They DO appeal to your regular folk because sexism (again, on any gender) is rampant and many people need a place to put their anger and frustration in. I wouldn’t belittle the trap these groups are for impressionable, insecure people.

dlouwe
dlouwe
4 years ago

@nparker

Yeah, since they are basically just another wiki-style page, the way that things are presented on a talk page isn’t always super clear; it’s kind of a mix of notes for editing the page, and more specific discussions chains.

The most consistent things that you can *mostly* rely on are that direct replies are indented under what they’re replying to, and users will have their username and a timestamp after each comment.

For example under “How to improve this article”, the first line is a comment by the user “Chrisrus”, followed by an indented block that starts the meltdown of the user ShadowKoment. This is probably the most entertaining section, and is fairly straight-forward to follow.

kale
kale
4 years ago

I call my friends who are sex workers that because they asked me to, as do lots of writers, podcasters, and activists whose work I follow. I advocate for ther profession to be legalized because that is what they want.
Most garment workers are slaves, that doesnt make garmen working inherently slavery. Same with farming, countless other examples.
Its about allowing adults choices and control, whch is proven to work better than demonizing & banning their work.

nparker
nparker
4 years ago

@ kale

I think you just summed up very much how I feel. Couldn’t really say anything is different.

@ dlouwe

Ah, I see.
How, mind you, did the discussion go though? I can’t quite see the trail of opinions, and who the MGTOW is.

Also, has anyone seen the sockpuppet investigation page for the World Champion Editor guy? He made a rant that went on for literally ages. It was the most wall o’ textiest or wall o’ texts ever.

nparker
nparker
4 years ago

I hate Wikipedia with a burning passion, but there are some people- the sockpuppet investigators- who just blow my mind with how in depth their investigations are. (Kind of like David investigating the manosphere.)

kale
kale
4 years ago

*virtual slaves not literally distinctio matters sorry

dlouwe
dlouwe
4 years ago

@nparker

The gist of it is the one guy takes issue with the fact that the editors keep rejecting the sources used to create the original (hilariously pro-MTGOW) draft of the page, then when it’s pointed out that this has been done in line with WP standards for reliable sources he takes issue with the standards themselves and asserts that the feminism page also violates those standards, then when it’s pointed out that it in fact does not violate those standards and also this is the wrong place to bring up disagreements over standards, he starts feigning confusion over some grammatical nitpick, insulting the editors, and generally refusing to acknowledge anyone’s points.

So, I guess pretty par for the course as far as discussion-stifling bad-faith manosphere asshats go.

weirwoodtreehugger
4 years ago

I just read the page and it was pretty hilarious. Shadowkomet sounds like a child angry because he thinks his sister got a bigger slice of cake.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

The gist of it is the one guy takes issue with the fact that the editors keep rejecting the sources used to create the original (hilariously pro-MTGOW) draft of the page …

Bonus: Including one of Milo Yiannopoulos’ Breitbart farticles.

dlouwe
dlouwe
4 years ago

I just find it super satisfying to watch the asshats flail against the processes set up by WP to prevent people from doing exactly what they’re trying to do. Since a neutral view of an opposing ideology (e.g. Feminism) puts it in a generally positive light, they can’t come to terms with the fact that a neutral view of their own movement makes them generally look like shitheads. The WP editors don’t give a crap about the politics, and that puts an uncomfortable mirror up to all the MGTOW trying to push their agenda.

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
4 years ago

luzbelitx

when I put it in context, they don’t seem to be bothered by sex trafficking at all. In fact, they insist in every space they speak, that human trafficking has “NOTHING” to do with sex work, which is a big fallacy at the very least.

Oh dear.

Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.

nparker
nparker
4 years ago

@ dlouwe

I just find it super satisfying to watch the asshats flail against the processes set up by WP to prevent people from doing exactly what they’re trying to do.

It warms my heart no end. It really does.

> sheds tear <

Its just so hard not to laugh! (so I don't attempt to stifle it!)

Luzbelitx
4 years ago

I advocate for ther profession to be legalized because that is what they want.

I can understand that.

I advocate for banning consumption and empowering women in prostitution, and most important dismantling the trafficking networks which often include politicians, police officers and chiefs, powerful business men, etc. because that is what the victims and I want.

Most garment workers are slaves, that doesnt make garmen working inherently slavery. Same with farming, countless other examples.

This is a common argument, so let me tell you where I’m coming from.

I live in a country in which garments and farming by literal slave labor are both produced and consumed. Latin America also provides about a third of the trafficked women and girls for prostitution consumed in Europe.

The thing is, today the biggest industry which uses slave labor, is human trafficking of women and girls for prostitution. By a long, long distance.

It’s one of the largest and fastest growing illegal/semi-legal industries, along with “cool kids” like drug traffic and gun traffic.

Sweatshops and farming? Also horribly and inexcusably affected by slavery, but in a global scale they are near to insignificant by comparison. And usually they don’t include the gendered sexual violence to the degree that is seen in sex slavery.

So no, farming and clothes-making are not inherently slavery, and maybe neither would be prostitution in a world in which women are not subject to sexual violence all the damn time. But that’s not the world we live in.

It may not be inherently slavery but it is inherently harmful to prostitutes, women and society at large.

is proven to work better than demonizing & banning their work.

No one here that I know of has suggested demonizing nor punishing prostitutes.

It’s not their work we intend to ban, it’s the consumers behavior that is unacceptable given the global situation of both women and sex workers.

kale
kale
4 years ago

well I dont wanna get into a drawn out argument. I dont really like those. so Im not gonna argue the point, anyone who is interested in hearing the voices of sex workers who favor legalization can seek that out, & hopefully anyone considering this issue will do so. Far more eloquent & sourced than something I could type up here anyway. If anyone needs some links Ill provide. but thats prob not necessary.

Dalillama
Dalillama
4 years ago

Luzbelitx

The thing is, today the biggest industry which uses slave labor, is human trafficking of women and girls for prostitution. By a long, long distance.

This appears to not be the case according to the best figuresI can find. ~ 22% of human trafficking is for purposes of sexual exploitation, while ~25% of victims are made to work in agriculture, ~24% in domestic servitude, & the rest in mining, manufactering, &construction principally.

In no case are trafficking victims helped by laws which make them liable to prosecution if they approach the authorities for aid, and while prostitution laws are a major factor, immigration laws are a bigger one.

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
4 years ago

Some of those MGTOWs are way too worried about the chance they might be falsely accused of rape merely by spending time in the same general location as women happen to be in. Maybe their “Elder MGTOWs” have hammered on and on about their own fears and issues till the younger MGTOWs were equally as fearful without any solid evidence that there’s one iota of real need to worry about being falsely accused of rape. Now, whether there’s behavior going on that the elders simply cannot face – namely that they have raped a woman (or women) but because they didn’t jump out at the bushes and drag her off to sexually assault her, they “couldn’t have really committed rape”…an issue which most certainly needs unpacking with the assistance of a mental health professional/counselor rather than just wandering off to congregate with ‘like-minded men’ to share the bitterness and spread it to the younger generation of men as well…seems likely but needs significant investigation to get the whole truth.

And they do know that there are already people living in Puerto Rico, including women, who may not feel like giving the entire island over to the MGTOW (who strangely feel they should form their own state rather than learn to adapt – but women and minorities are expected to? sorry they feel like CENTURIES wasn’t enough, now that the shoe is on the other foot it’s whine whine whine whine whine…would be better if it were wine.) …?

Mortarius
Mortarius
4 years ago

Probably not going to be back on this thread to check replies later but I’d like to offer my perspective on the sex work issue.

Here in NSW prostitution is legal so long as it takes place in a licensed brothel. Strict controls on licensing affect where and how many brothels can be.

There have been some unambiguous benefits to this legal framework: street solicitation has been more or less eradicated, legitimate brothels are subject to health, safety and workplace standards, there have been cases where women have been able to report failings in standards and police work is more focused on trafficking than chasing johns.

Any other benefit claimed is sketchy at best, statistical collection in this area will always be poor.

The main flaws as it stands:
– enforcement falls to police, there is no dedicated regulatory agency that would be more well resourced, specialised and able to make reform recommendations. Police tend to rotely enforce the laws as they are and lack any sensitivity to the issues.
– enforcement of license conditions and getting courts to shut down illegal brothels (“massage parlours”) falls to local councils who usually have to hire private investigators for this.
– the migration status of women is the primary means of enslaving women and keeping them from authorities with deportation threats. Immigration officials have proven shockingly callous on this front. Reforms allowing women in such situations to approach authorities and make a refugee claim would help this, but Aus is one of the worst places on refugee rights in the developed world.
– forced drug addictions are used to enslave women to sex work and prevent them from approaching the authorities or escaping. While it is not illegal to take drugs (intoxication is not allowed as evidence of prior possession so that people can go to hospital without being arrested), health services for the addicted are woefully inadequate and police can be highly insensitive and unhelpful to addicts. Treating drugs as a health issue would do a lot on this front.
– there is no “internal affairs” type agency independent from police to prevent corruption of councils/cops/immigration by sex traffickers, we rely purely on police to investigate themselves and others.
– Workplace conditions are often below legally required standards (true of most mid to low paid service industries unfortunately) because of inadequate resourcing of avenues for complaint. Unlike other industries however the media is not an available saving grace.

In the end I’m not sure what system I could realistically advocate for, there’s a complex intersection of immigration, drug, health, workplace conditions, corruption, sex, gender and enforcement issues. I only know how to advocate for an improvement over how things are.

To that end I would say don’t oppose regulation policies because you want elimination policies, accept any improvement that can be made without abandoning your ultimate goal.

Kat
Kat
4 years ago

@History Nerd

It’s easy to mock Manosphereans for their ridiculous views, but their views are internally consistent and appeal to a lot of people. RoK and Aurini actually believe this stuff.

Their views are both ridiculous and internally inconsistent. Roosh, for example, veers between teaching us how to be “Muslims lite” and telling us how he hates Muslims and telling his paying audience (on the BBC special) to pay no attention to morality when dealing with women. If religion is about anything, it’s about morality.

So what if the manosphere appeals to a lot of people?

Also, what number is a “lot of people”?

Finally, how do you know that Roosh and Aurini “actually believe this stuff”? And if they do believe it, why? After all, “this stuff” doesn’t make any sense. (See above re extreme inconsistency.)

Orion
Orion
4 years ago

I couldn’t help but notice that the sex-workers would never, ever -like EVER- join sides with people who were trying to rescue women kidnapped for trafficking and bring down pimps and brothels (most of these people are friends and families of victims, who had to do the work themselves while the State looked away or was an accomplice).

In fact, the discourse from sex workers in Argentina is way more anti-abolitionist than it is anti-exploitation They made anti-sexual exploitation feminists their chosen enemy, instead of the mafias behind sex trafficking networks.

AMMAR (which I believe to the sex workers group from Argentina you have mentioned) is a member of the Latin American sex worker’s group RedTraSex. RedtraSex publishes a pamphlet about this issue*.

They argue that anti-trafficking laws in Latin America are often used to harass sex workers and even to de facto criminalize them. They say that women who have banded together by choice have been charged with trafficking one another; that the search for trafficked women gives police a pretext to raid the places where sex workers do business and even to forcibly remove women in the name of “rescue;” and that police officers routinely steal money and papers from sex workers in the guise of “evidence.”

They also argue that most proposed anti-trafficking measures do little to help the women who are actually being trafficked. Women rescued from international trafficking are being deported to the places they were trafficked from in the first place. Those who aren’t deported are seeing anti-trafficking money go to police forces but not to social workers or health services.

http://www.redtrasex.org/publicaciones/8-reazons/index.html

Luzbelitx
4 years ago

@kale

I do listen to the voices of sex workers, in fact I tried to show how I came to my point of view because of having listened.

I also listen to victims and survivors of human trafficking, whose voices are even harder to hear from those of the organized sex workers.

There is a certain degree of privilege in pretending only the voices of the less exploited matter or can decide the fate of everyone.

Of course both traffic victims and sex workers are severely underprivileged, but of those groups, it’s sex workers who have resources and advantages that traffic victims do not.

This appears to not be the case according to the best figuresI can find

My bad, I was quoting from my memory and might have been thinking of Latin America and not globally.

Point taken.

In no case are trafficking victims helped by laws which make them liable to prosecution if they approach the authorities for aid

We are proposing the exact opposite, you can read it all over my comments.

and while prostitution laws are a major factor, immigration laws are a bigger one.

It depends on where you are, actually. Europe receives most of its victims from other parts of the world, but victims in Latin America are usually from other Latin American countries, and there are even networks of trafficking within the same country (more usual in larger countries like Argentina and Brazil).

I’m not sure about the situation in the US, but I’m betting there’s a lot of internal trafficking as well -I have read about trafficking around Las Vegas being fed by local victims.

It’s complicated.

I do think immigration is not usually taken into account as much as it should, but laws regarding prostitution are the ones who have the most effect on… prostitution.

To that end I would say don’t oppose regulation policies because you want elimination policies, accept any improvement that can be made without abandoning your ultimate goal.

I wanted to thank you first for your comment, it was a lot of first hand information which is always important.

As I said before, and I insist, I fully respect the right of sex workers to organize and demand improvements to their working conditions.

The problem I see is, traffic victims DO NOT have “working conditions” instead they suffer “human rights violations”.

I can respect their unions and still be suspicious of their methods and their stated goals.

I can respect their unions and still choose to stand with the victims, at all times, in all places, because that’s what I do: I side with the weakest.

That’s why I’m a Peronist and a (intersectional decolonial ecologist) Feminist!

Luzbelitx
4 years ago

@Orion

Yes! AMMAR is one of the main groups here.

It also sort of broke up after one of the leaders in Buenos Aires was found using their union as a cover up for traffickers.

Currently we have AMMAR on one hand, and AMADH, a mix of sex workers and traffic survivors who want to ban the consumption of women’s bodies.

They argue that anti-trafficking laws in Latin America are often used to harass sex workers and even to de facto criminalize them.

Well, the thing is, those who criminalize them de facto are the police.

We have a HUGE police problem here, they have a lot of power, they have guns, they are partners in crime with durgs and humans traffickers… they are an ugly part of our society.

But by fighting the law (which does NOT criminalize sex workers nor victims) and giving a pass to the police (which hardly follow any law at all, unless they feel like it) is a not so subtle siding with the pimps and leaving victims on their own.

They say that women who have banded together by choice have been charged with trafficking one another;

Well, I know in at least some of the cases, they were proven to be trafficking one another.

That the search for trafficked women gives police a pretext to raid the places where sex workers do business and even to forcibly remove women in the name of “rescue

;”

That is true also to some extent, the thing is “removed women” are not (or shouldn’t be according to the law) arrested, they are supposed to get assistance, a place to live and a way to restart their lives. It might be an inconvenience, but it’s not exactly being criminalized.

nd that police officers routinely steal money and papers from sex workers in the guise of “evidence.”

See “police problem, why are you attacking the law” above.

They also argue that most proposed anti-trafficking measures do little to help the women who are actually being trafficked

We have rescued thousands of women and girls in the past 6 years. It is true there haven’t been enough resources granted to give them shelter and an opportunity to start over.

The survivors themselves are demanding this has to be fixed, so why are sex workers attacking the law instead of joining forces to make the demand stronger?

Those who aren’t deported are seeing anti-trafficking money go to police forces but not to social workers or health services.

This is not an absolute stance, but yes, governments here love giving money to the police.

No, they don’t really love it, but they have to deal with an organized armed force which works like a maffia and WITH the maffia.

This is getting worse every hour since the conservative wanna-be-Trump asshole of a president we have now has assumed.

The previous government may not have perfectly pulled off the anti-traffic trick, but the new government is actually partner of traffickers.

The only defense we have now, feeble and fragile, is the anti-traffic law. Police is not going to be any kinder to sex workers in the years to come, and the strength they might have collected by joining the victims, they wasted fighting them.

I do know it’s a complicated issue, and I know sex workers in Argentina do not represent sex workers everywhere.

But I’m glad you chose to look for information and keep asking, we do need all the visibility we can manage!

Kreator
Kreator
4 years ago

conservative wanna-be-Trump asshole of a president

Oh come on, let’s not give our friends such hyperbole. On the scale of evil, Macri is way below Trump; it’s like comparing a sparrow to an eagle. That said,

the new government is actually partner of traffickers

I wasn’t aware of this. Do you have any evidence that doesn’t come from ultra-Kirchnerist media*? Even anecdotal evidence will do.

* for those not in the know, the media allied with our previous government, who is a little too fond of fearmongering and demonizing any opposition.

Luzbelitx
4 years ago

Oh come on, let’s not give our friends such hyperbole. On the scale of evil, Macri is way below Trump

That’s why I added the “wanna-be”.

Plus, he’s in fact a friend of Trump, who recommended him as a president (!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te_GvaUIT4s

Regarding traffickers:

There is this picture with Gabriel Conde, fugitive of justice and partner or Raul Martins, one of the most powerful traffickers.

http://www.diarioregistrado.com/upload/news/diarioregistrado/5635288af222a.jpg

Here’s a report from La Alameda, an NGO against trafficking:

https://laalameda.wordpress.com/2012/01/11/el-mafioso-raul-martins-financio-la-campana-de-mauricio-macri/

Do you have any evidence that doesn’t come from ultra-Kirchnerist media*?

I’d need to know what do you consider “ultra-Kirchnerist media” to answer that…

the media allied with our previous government, who is a little too fond of fearmongering and demonizing any opposition.

We’ll probably disagree here, but I see it the other way around.

Powerful media (historically allied to economic groups behind every single coup d’etat in the past century) construed any media non-hostile to Kirchnerism as “ultra” “extreme” “fanatic” etc.

But the “ultra-Kirchnerist media”, even if we take mass media’s claims at face value, is a recent phenomenon: no more than 12 years old.

The media making the claims that Kirchnerists want to fearmonger and demonize, have actually been around for centuries, and are partners of other monopolies, like food production and financial market leaders.

The truth is, elections went by, traditional media are still standing strong (and are growing lager and more powerful), while “ultra-Kirchnerist media” was made mainly of small cooperative media,
who now risk disappearance by persecution and economic asphyxia, and the State channels which are now in control of the new government and seem to replicate *exactly* what mass media are showing (which most definitely did NOT happen with the previous government)

I could go on about this, but I made my point, so I’ll wait your answer and we’ll go on from here, if you’re interested 🙂

mockingbird
mockingbird
4 years ago

@Mortarius –

To that end I would say don’t oppose regulation policies because you want elimination policies, accept any improvement that can be made without abandoning your ultimate goal.

That’s something that it seems like is often forgotten when trying to accomplish something in the political and public spheres.

Don’t let the Perfect be the enemy of the Good.

Sometimes making things a bit better than bad is all that can be done, the hope being that enough bits will eventually add up.

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
4 years ago

Well, I’m interested Luz. My knowledge of Argentine politics is scant and I’m finding your posts interesting and informative.

Kreator
Kreator
4 years ago

@Luzbelitx:

Oh my, that video… -_- Trump recommended Macri as a mayor of Buenos Aires though, not president; that was old footage. In fact, it’s all from before Trump’s rise to racist stardom. That’s just nitpicking though, I understand that Macri’s not a nice guy. He did praise Ayn Rand’s writing after all! (As an aside, I find it funny, and yet a sadly representative of our divided society, that on that video’s sidebar I found links to both a video heralding Macri as the prophesized savior of our country, and another one showing “evidence” of his supposed membership to the evil Illuminati.)

I’d need to know what do you consider “ultra-Kirchnerist media” to answer that…

Sorry, I should have been more specific indeed. I just meant the “big guns”: Página 12, C5N, 678 and the like; the ones owned by rich Kirchnerist businesspeople. Any other source could do, and the one you provided was perfect, so thanks! Believe me, I don’t trust Clarín and other powerful media any more than I trust the sources I mentioned earlier. Same shit; different smell -like most politicians over here, really.

Luzbelitx
4 years ago

Well, C5N is quickly shifting to pro-new-government, so I’d believe they are more ultramoney-making than “rich powerful kirchnerists”.

As for Pagina 12, it is absolutely disgusting the way they have demonized it. The professional and investigation levels match and sometimes even rise above those in La Nacion, the traditional conservative newspaper (not to non-Argies).

The fundamental trick of conservative media was to effectively position themselves as “objective” and any non-hostility towards kirchnerism as “ultra fanatism”.

I don’t think it’s too far from what conservative media do in the US.

Also, I’d like to remind everyone that both Clarin and La Nacion own the paper factory Papel Prensa, which they bought at vile price during the dictatorship after kidnapping and torturing the Graiver family, who owned it.

They have consistently bought themselves paper at preferential ptices, meaning Pagina 12 is at the mercy of their competitors when it comes to paper for printing AND the main papers have used their dominating position to hide their own crimes.

I had the lucky chance to meet Lidia Papaleo, surviving widow of Graiver, who was tortured and made to watch her family be tortured.

Her only words to me were ” I am happy I lived to meet your generation, but I’m even more glad I lived for you to meet me.”

So information and media, we can’t discuss them without diving into the horrors of human rights violations, past and present.

And I’m not really sure I’m up for the job right now, but I’ll be glad to go on if we take it veeeeerryyyy easy and respectfully.

Kreator
Kreator
4 years ago

Well, C5N is quickly shifting to pro-new-government, so I’d believe they are more ultramoney-making than “rich powerful kirchnerists”.

Once a bootlicker, always a bootlicker I guess :\

The fundamental trick of conservative media was to effectively position themselves as “objective” and any non-hostility towards kirchnerism as “ultra fanatism”.

You’re right, but meanwhile the fundamental trick of the kirchnerist governments was to position themselves as flawless champions of social justice*, and any criticism towards them as imperialistic attempts to instigate a coup d’état. The result? A political divide which makes Republicans and Democrats look like the Get Along Gang. Sigh… I hope we eventually stop playing their power games, find a third path, and make amends.

* While they made lots of welcome progress like introducing gay marriage, the truth is that our last two presidents were in many ways demagogues who just did and said whatever would buy them the most goodwill to cover their asses in case their shady dealings were discovered. They were allied with the menemist government that they currently denounce, and even hegemonic media like Clarín was in good terms with them until they decided to go against the interests of the agricultural barons (think Cliven Bundy with less physical weapons, but even more economic and political ones).

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago

&dots;and while prostitution laws are a major factor, immigration laws are a bigger one.

There’s a reason why it is official and somewhat advertised policy, at least here in Toronto, that teachers and members of the School Board are never supposed to inquire as to the immigration status of the families of students. Parents worried that school will be used as a way to find them and throw them out tend not to enroll their children in school, and that just accelerates the vicious cycle.

Luzbelitx
4 years ago

he fundamental trick of the kirchnerist governments was to position themselves as flawless champions of social justice

Actually, and again we may disagree at large, I think all popular movements in Latin America are treated by the dominant elites (who either belong or look up to privileged classes in societies like Us and Europe) much in the same way patriarchy treats feminism and women’s movements.

I really don’t intend to chicanear here, but I couldn’t help associating “champions of social justice” with “social justice warrior”. It’s not so much what they claimed to be, rather it was what their enemies painted them to (pretend to) be.

and any criticism towards them as imperialistic attempts to instigate a coup d’état.

Then again, there were actual imperialistic attempts to instigate a coup d’etat, or just enough social chaos to bring the government down.

I hope we eventually stop playing their power games, find a third path,

Now I’m really hoping you’re aware of what the Third Position is and who came up with it 😉

They were allied with the menemist government that they currently denounce

They were not, in fact, they were “inside resistance” within the Partido Justicialista. They have always been a minority and needed to forge alliances with more powerful fractions. Besides, they were public servants at the time, and there’s an amount of compromise a governor needs to get along with let’s say a president.

It’s a power relation within democracy that is always there, and the path to resolve it is to acknowledge it and then take action within the available options and according to the amount of power you handle in each situation.

But they have always denounced the politics of structural poverty, unemployment and dependency through debt, and there is visual and printed documentation of it.

They may not have been supporting all along human rights groups like Madres and Abuelas de Plaza de Mayo, but if being a social justice warrior has taught me anything, it that I trust their guts.

Women who stood up to the military dictatorship, and never got to see their loved ones again, in some cases knowing they are probably alive, are not easily fooled or distracted, or bribed or bought.

even hegemonic media like Clarín was in good terms with them until they decided to go against the interests of the agricultural barons

You are saying it yourself: it was Clarin who decided wether they were in good or bad terms. Again, Clarin is an almost 100 year old newspaper, but during the 1990s it became a cluster of media, a business group which was also shareholder of many powerful and unimaginably profitable business like public health outsourced to private business (AFJP), technology business like TechInt and even… *ominous drumroll* agricultiural exporters!

So we’re not really speaking of media here, but of concentrated power.

Considering the power balance of big business over society vs a government which must deal with democratic mechanisms and bureaucracy, which one would you say has the more chances to influence the public’s opinion in its favor?

Luzbelitx
4 years ago

EVERYBODY STAND STILL. THE BLOCKQUOTE MAMMOTH IS BACK.

(How did that even happen, I used the button! And Now I can’t edit!!)

I FEEL HIS MAMMOTH EYES JUDGING ME

comment image

Kreator
Kreator
4 years ago

Actually, and again we may disagree at large, I think all popular movements in Latin America are treated by the dominant elites (who either belong or look up to privileged classes in societies like Us and Europe) much in the same way patriarchy treats feminism and women’s movements.

Nope, I actually agree with that 100%. I know the elites’ rhetoric quite well and it’s truly disgusting, not to mention counterproductive: their bogus criticism is the noise that makes it easier for those popular movements to hide the real flaws they sometimes have, and I despise the oligarchs all the more for it.

I really don’t intend to chicanear here, but I couldn’t help associating “champions of social justice” with “social justice warrior”. It’s not so much what they claimed to be, rather it was what their enemies painted them to (pretend to) be.

I disagree. They revelled in the adoration they received with gusto and literally tried to create a new national myth around their presidencies, practically succeding despite their enemies’ best efforts. I even wish I could believe it… I do agree with many of their policies after all. When they did good they did good and that cannot be denied. Furthermore, let me honestly tell you this: I’m glad that they still have a strong foothold in the legislative power. Macri absolutely needs to be kept on a leash. I like “Social Justice Warriors”, I want them in the government, I envy their resolve and their conviction, but these people were mostly playing the part for their audience and little more, while robbing them backstage.

They were not, in fact, they were “inside resistance” within the Partido Justicialista.

Once again I wish I could believe you, but I just don’t buy it; it sounds just like another lame attempt at covering their asses. Also, I had heard about Néstor Kirchner’s corruption before he actually became our president, from people who actually knew him personally.

But they have always denounced the politics of structural poverty, unemployment and dependency through debt, and there is visual and printed documentation of it.

People change; power corrupts. Young idealists turn into jaded assholes all the time, I’ve got militant friends who have seen it happening repeatedly to people within their ranks. Also, there’s never a shortage of hypocrites who are in it for the power only.

Women who stood up to the military dictatorship, and never got to see their loved ones again, in some cases knowing they are probably alive, are not easily fooled or distracted, or bribed or bought.

I see you’re way less cynic than me; that’s good actually. You’re more useful to society than I will ever be, and for that I commend you… but you’re talking about an organization whose leader openly claimed that the terrorist attacks on 9/11 made her happy, among other terrible and even outright criminal things. I just can’t give them the benefit of the doubt, no matter how good their ultimate cause is.

Then again, there were actual imperialistic attempts to instigate a coup d’etat, or just enough social chaos to bring the government down.

Exaggerated claims. And now it’s the kirchnerists who want to do it…

Considering the power balance of big business over society vs a government which must deal with democratic mechanisms and bureaucracy, which one would you say has the more chances to influence the public’s opinion in its favor?

We’re not the USA; most of our people are openly hostile towards capitalism gone wild, as they should be. Do you think Macri won this election because people liked him? Nope, he won because people liked kirchnerism even less, and he probably won’t have another victory like this ever again -which sounds great to me. If Scioli hadn’t been so spineless and softened his ties to the political party which did nothing but bully and demean him at every chance it could, he might have defeated Macri by a landslide.

Luzbelitx
4 years ago

Nope, I actually agree with that 100%

Now that’s an answer a Peronist like me will always like 😛

They revelled in the adoration they received with gusto and literally tried to create a new national myth around their presidencies, practically succeding despite their enemies’ best efforts.

This is a prejudice that Peronism had to deal with since day 1 (October 17, 1945 for curious lurkers). Perón got to power for no other reason than popular claim. He represented the masses that till then had had no voice and no decision. Unions existed but had not made great advances at that point. Eva was a lovely woman who gave things to the poor, what was not to love and what was not to hate about it, depending on which side you were?

The truth is, some political leaders are loved, and there’s nothing more to say about that. Cynics will have to get over it.

these people were mostly playing the part for their audience and little more, while robbing them backstage.

This is so messed up I don’t even know where to start, but mind you, you don’t get to the power in Argentina and you don’t stay there against the concentrated power’s will, if you are just playing the part for your audience.

That’s what people like Macri do, and why they hire Duran Barba and why they make sure they stay on the side of the powerful.

Peronists work. We are messy, we yell, some of us are dishonest and some of as are filthy. But we get the work done.

And the work of the past 12 years was to give people work. Kids in the poorest places went back to school, then to middle school and technical school and artistic school, and then had an oportunity to work (still there remains an unacceptable level of unregistered labor), and women in violent situations had whom to go to, however imperfect and clumsy that help might be.

It’s absurd to speak about the Kirchners “robbing backstage” and not acknowledge all the backstage robbing that’s been going on at gunpoint, bombings, and outright terrorism.

Once again I wish I could believe you(…)

You don’t need to believe anything I say: go out there and check it. See for yourself. Dig in and see what you find.

Also, I had heard about Néstor Kirchner’s corruption before he actually became our president, from people who actually knew him personally.

So you hated him before it was mainstream, and gossip is totally not a thing in politics. Huh.

(Sorry, I am chicaneando now. Let me get back on track)

People change; power corrupts. Young idealists turn into jaded assholes all the time, I’ve got militant friends who have seen it happening repeatedly to people within their ranks. Also, there’s never a shortage of hypocrites who are in it for the power only.

That might be, but you’re supposed to judge after the facts, otherwise it’s just a prejudice.

but you’re talking about an organization whose leader openly claimed that the terrorist attacks on 9/11 made her happy, among other terrible and even outright criminal things. I just can’t give them the benefit of the doubt, no matter how good their ultimate cause is.

Now, that is very close to victim blaming, and you should know better.

And “outright criminal things” MY ASS. You’re talking about my Mothers here, and if you make an accusation like that you better goddamn prove it.

Exaggerated claims.

According to WHOM?

And now it’s the kirchnerists who want to do it…

And which side are you on? What’s your take in this scenario?

We’re not the USA; most of our people are openly hostile towards capitalism gone wild, as they should be

Oh boy, didn’t you call yourself a cynic earlier?

Do you think Macri won this election because people liked him? Nope, he won because people liked kirchnerism even less,

Well, I at least have known this from a long time.

Now, if people are openly hostile towards capitalism gone wild, then how come they liked Macri better than kirchnerism?

If Scioli hadn’t been so spineless and softened his ties to the political party which did nothing but bully and demean him at every chance it could, he might have defeated Macri by a landslide.

Oh, don’t give me MRA word salads. Get a grip.

Kreator
Kreator
4 years ago

Perón got to power for no other reason than popular claim. He represented the masses that till then had had no voice and no decision. Unions existed but had not made great advances at that point. Eva was a lovely woman who gave things to the poor, what was not to love and what was not to hate about it, depending on which side you were?

You’re right, I admit it. I really have no problems with Eva Perón; I do have some reservations about her husband but that’s a whole different story for another time.

The truth is, some political leaders are loved, and there’s nothing more to say about that. Cynics will have to get over it.

Aaand once again, I have to admit you’re right. It does me no good to dwell on that and it doesn’t help the discussion at all. Sorry.

you don’t get to the power in Argentina and you don’t stay there against the concentrated power’s will, if you are just playing the part for your audience.

Sigh… yep, you’re positively thrashing me here. I must admit that so far I haven’t been able to come up with with an answer to this that doesn’t sound like a silly conspiracy theory, at least not without enough data to back it up. You thoroughly win this argument.

Peronists work. We are messy, we yell, some of us are dishonest and some of as are filthy. But we get the work done.

Maybe, but I think there are smaller left-wing parties that could do an even better job, if we just let them try sometime. Those are the ones I always vote for.

It’s absurd to speak about the Kirchners “robbing backstage” and not acknowledge all the backstage robbing that’s been going on at gunpoint, bombings, and outright terrorism.

You are correct; there are no saints on our history. Once again I must apologize.

So you hated him before it was mainstream, and gossip is totally not a thing in politics. Huh.

Ouch! Low blow, but I gues I deserve it for lowering my guard.

Now, that is very close to victim blaming, and you should know better.

And “outright criminal things” MY ASS. You’re talking about my Mothers here, and if you make an accusation like that you better goddamn prove it.

Round… 4? 5? I’ve lost count, you’re hitting me so hard that I’m starting to loose consciousness. But seriously, I’m sorry, I really am. I was way out of line there. I spoke out of my ass and all that came out was diarrhea. I feel my mind failing me as I dehydrate.

And which side are you on? What’s your take in this scenario?

I… honestly don’t know any more, and at this point it’s safe to say that this argument is over, as I utterly lost any foothold I had in it, if any. Being compared to a MRA was a punch I wasn’t expecting, and it really knocked me out. It hurt a lot, but the truth is that you’ve given me a fair and square ideological beating, and a lot to think about as I lick my wounds. Perhaps, in some way, this is actually what I wanted when I engaged you: to be given some much needed perspective. In many ways I was blinded, you’re right. I still think there’s a lof of hypocrisy around and I still don’t agree with a lot of things about our previous government, but now I can at least begin to analize it in a truly critical fashion. Thank you.

PS: Yeah, on second thought Scioli really has some serious guts. So many people of his own party hated him and insulted him at every opportunity, and yet he stayed there until the bitter end. I can’t fathom doing something like that for anything other than true faith in the cause. I’m sorry he lost, but these are just four years. We will survive, and we’ll be stronger no matter what.

Luzbelitx
4 years ago

Hi there! I was afraid I started a fire I wouldn’t be able to put out, and was beginning to regret being so hard on you.

I love discussing but I do sometimes push it too far, as probably regular readers here already know.

I just want to reassure I hold no bad feeling towards you, and in fact I believe you do have both good intentions and a will to make things better.

Thank you for being so understanding and I’m glad I was able to help you think through, despite the methods :/

Also, I’m taking back the MRA thing. I only meant you can only stack so many ideas in one sentence without making it really hard to follow.

Thanks again for this exchange, I will let this thread rest now.

Stevie Stevenson
Stevie Stevenson
4 years ago

I’m sure this is low-hanging fruit, but the mind reels at the prospect of what kind of (presumably unfulfilled?) sexual fantasies a person must have that “cuck” becomes the go-to meaningless insult.

It’s like going around calling everyone a “power bottom,” to demonstrate how not-gay you are compared to everyone else.

caketastydelish
caketastydelish
4 years ago

Who cares if the “boycott” actually did cost them a measly few million dollars? It’s literally the most successful movie of all time in North America. Any “boycott” by Roosh and his small irrelevant fanbase is overlapped by the huge numbers that did see this movie. I’d be embarrassed to say I organized a “boycott” against a movie with such commercial success, because all that does is prove your boycott is nearly 100% irrelevant. Disney is probably laughing their ass off.