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Open Thread: The “militia” takeover of a federal building in Oregon

Armed fanatics seeking controntation somehow not terrorists
Armed fanatics seeking confrontation, somehow not terrorists

Apparently the US media doesn’t really think it’s a big deal for a small army of heavily armed fanatics to take over government property in hopes of spurring some sort of armed revolution — if the armed fanatics in question are white guys.

Share information, insights, etc.

And, as you may already be aware, alt-right trolls are actively spreading misinformation about this standoff, so if you run across any of that please point it out here as well.

No trolls, MRAs, etc.

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Wetherby
Wetherby
5 years ago

Arguably, France, with conditions. Farmed without firearms have been known to do pretty fucked things in public office without real repercussions.

Yes, that’s true – France does have a bit of a tradition of turning a blind eye to violent militancy. But other countries have had their own homegrown terrorists – think Baader-Meinhof in Germany or the Red Brigades in Italy, and I’m honestly hard pushed to see much difference between them and what’s happening in Oregon.

WeirwoodTreeHugger
WeirwoodTreeHugger
5 years ago

Yacob,
There have been more acts of terrorism on US soil by right wing “patriot ” types than Islamic extremists in the past decade. Just because you don’t notice, thanks to the racially biased coverage of the media, doesn’t mean right wing militia terrorism doesn’t exist and isn’t dangerous.

And I don’t think any of the anarchists I’ve ever known would support this, so don’t project this on to them.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ wetherby

There’s a interesting bit of national stereotyping in how the German authorities caught the bulk of the RAF (Baader-Meinhof) group. The group followed the international terrorist handbook tactic of trying to live off the grid, this included things like always paying bills in cash.

Germans though seem to enjoy efficiency and compliance, so the authorities just looked for the one house *not* paying bills by direct debit and were able to make a major bust.

Terrabeau
Terrabeau
5 years ago

@Wetherby:

I think the main difference between Oregon and Europe is that the Sovereign Citizens’ gripes about big government and self-sufficiency have a lot more traction in America’s mainstream conservative politics than any similar European group. Just look at how Fox News showered Cliven Bundy with praise for his temper tantrum over land taxes.

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

D’you think this anti-tax thing is because of a fundamentally poor grasp of Anglo-American history?

Reading comprehension is not traditionally a strong skill for these libertarian types, be it school textbook or the constitution they claim to be defending.

It seems like the sort of thing you’d get when a child has been taught that the brave patriotic Americans fought against the tyrannical British over taxes… but hasn’t fully understood that it was the US taxes going overseas to the British government, and not the general concept of taxes that was the source of the dispute.

Here’s another history lesson – It’s become a Neo-Reactionary meme that X current progressive social movement destroyed Rome, but it actually had more to do with crumbling infrastructure caused by… failure of the wealthy to pay their damn taxes.

Education is so important.

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

@occasional reader

Malheur is indeed the name of the park and the lake it’s on. A lot of place names in that area are in French because some of the early settlers were French. http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Malheur/about.html

It sounds like there’s a building you can visit in the park, which is pretty typical of US National parks. They usually have gift shops, often convenience stores, sometimes guided tours, etc.

guy
guy
5 years ago

@occasional reader

They’ve taken over the headquarters for the park management employees.

The local police are presently avoiding the area, which is probably for the best since reporters say Y’allQaeda has AR-15s and probably outgun the local police. Assuming this isn’t one of the counties that picked up a spare APC from the military, which is wildly unnecessary for police work unless basically exactly this happens.

I have this vague hope that this ends in a way that makes it clear to everyone that no, owning guns does not constitute the ability to overthrow the federal government and we finally get some progress on gun control. Not very likely, though.

Bernardo Soares
Bernardo Soares
5 years ago

@Wetherby

There are huge differences between the militia movement in the US and left-wing terrorism in Europe, as there are important differences between the latter and right-wing terrorism (and their respective treatment by law enforcement).

The RAF started with bankrobberies and sabotage, laying bombs in warehouses, US Army barracks and the building of the publisher of the Bild tabloid, and escalated to targeted kidnappings and killings of high-profile bankers, entrepreneurs and politicians. They claimed they had a moral right to do so because some of the people they targeted had been relatively prominent National Socialists or Wehrmacht Generals who not only had gotten off scott-free, but continued to profit from their connection to old Nazi networks. They expressed themselves in a revolutionary rhetoric which saw the “post-fascist” German state as an oppressor and thought that once an elite of revolutionary fighters started taking up arms against that state, “the masses” would follow. They also saw Thirld World guerrillas and nationalist movements as their heroes, as the ones who had taken up arms first and whose revolutionary momentum needed to be transported into the “centers” of the capitalist world. They did not, however, condemn states in general as tyrannical, but fought for the establishment of a communist state (albeit purportedly less socially and culturally rigid as the Soviet Union). Their Anti-Americanism (stemming from their involvement with anti-imperialism and the Vietnam protest movement) was strong and in the end, morphed (ironically, given their anti-fascist rhetoric) into full-blown antisemitism.

Their saying was that one needed to “cut the Hydra off at the head”, meaning that they weren’t interested in everyday presence of the state bureaucracies (although they didn’t mind killing police, they didn’t target them), but sought high-profile targets amongst the business and political elite, who they wanted to feel unsafe.

That’s very different to me from a right-wing anarchist Christian militia which, in this ideological combination, can only exist in the US, because it thrives on a frontier and Manifest Destiny myth that just isn’t there in Europe.

Also, to the point you made earlier about how these people would, in Europe, be automaticall regarded as terrorists:
There has, at least in Germany, but also in Italy, long been a huge difference in the prosecution of left-wing vs. right-wing terrorists, to the point that secret networks such as P2 or Gladio have actively supported extreme right militias as a partner against the “communist threat”. The investigation into the famous bombing of Bologna main station was long obstructed by P2 members in high positions; and there are still a lot of open questions about why there was never an investigation into the links of the Oktoberfest bomber to right-wing militias which were connected to Gladio at the time.

More recently, the fact that for ten years, three wanted Neonazis could live off widespread support in the scene and conduct a murder spree among people of Turkish and Greek descent, incuding the murder of a policewoman without being found by police or the Secret Service. Again, their MO was to target normal people to spread fear among migrants in Germany, which is very different from left.wing terrorism trying to kill high-ranking representatives of state and business.

@Alan
I’ve never heard that before; it’s hilarious, but can you give me a source for that?

Shalimar
Shalimar
5 years ago

President Obama has to be secretly behind this, just like every other evil plot against America. Has anyone checked to make sure Bill Ayers hasn’t joined the militia group? He has a history of leading this kind of protest operation.

Bernardo Soares
Bernardo Soares
5 years ago

@ Terrabeau:

There is actually a movement similar to the Sovereign Citizens in Germany, but it has a distinctly German flavour. They call themselves “Reichsbürger” (Citizens of the Reich). There are different groups, but all claim that Germany does not have a constitution and is an illegal entity according to international law. Most claim that the Weimar constitution is still active, so the Reich still exists, and Germany is still an occupied country. Mostly their “resistance” contains of not paying their parking tickets or buying fake identity documents off the internet, but several groups have tried to establish their own state in some rural backwater property. They seem mostly harmless, but can become aggressive, are loosely connected to more violent right-wing groups and are under surveillance by the Verfassungsschutz.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ bernardo

It’s something I picked up at a counter-terrorism seminar.

Another great example of (hash)terroristfails is the first WTC bombing. One of the terrorists turned up at the Ryder rental office and tried to get his deposit back on the van they used. As it happened the FBI were in the back office going through the paperwork. One of the FBI chaps went out front, pretended he was the manager and said that he needed the names and addresses of everyone who’d been in the van before he could return the deposit. Guess what?

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 years ago

“the Verfassungsschutz.”

What I like with German is that the name of everything in german look like the name of the big bad in a cheesy action-adventure movie.

Based on my five year of studie in german, I think it’s the name of a governemental spying agency that use its old necromantic lore to kill people then reanimate as mindless zombie used as spy.

After they bust the circle they target, they take the zombie to the nearest church and pray for their resurrections because come on, it would be impolite to let them stay in that state.

Bakunin
Bakunin
5 years ago

Mikhail Bakunin, Peter Kropotkin, the Paris Commune, Buenaventura Durretti, and the anarchists of the Spanish Civil War didn’t fight for the landowners like these fools. They fought for the downtrodden. Bakunin especially saw the response of Metternich to the French Revolution and tried to keep the dream going.

Look to the Diggers in England after the English Civil War for a better anarchist example. The Diggers seized common property like these assholes, but they started growing crops and eventually moved on after facing eviction. Their main opponents were the Bundys of the time, rich landowners who resorted to violence.

Yakob, find better anarchists to be friends with than ‘anarcho’-capitalists. There’s much better stuff there than white guys complaining about taxes and zoning laws.

AltoFronte, that’s true, but keep in mind the Tea Act didn’t raise taxes leading to the Tea Party, it actually cut them, but only for the East India Company, which had a surplus at the time and was on shaky footing. The Partiers anger was because they were illegally smuggling tea and other goods, and a duty free source threatened their income. Which does fit in here actually. Rich white guys who built their fortunes on questionably legal practices getting pissy when they’re challenged.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ altofronto and bakunin

There’s some suggestion that Twinings may have been involved with the Boston Tea Party; they being the main suppliers of off the books tea. Who knows; although it may not be a coincidence that the party didn’t throw any Twinings tea overboard?

Bernardo Soares
Bernardo Soares
5 years ago

@Ohlmann:
That’s a pretty accurate description of how the Verfassungsschutz works. 😉

Dal
Dal
5 years ago

Any other country on earth would’ve taken the heads off of these terrorists by now.

maistrechat
5 years ago

re:numbers

I’ve noticed a huge tendency to inflate the number of people who show up to these types of things. My spouse’s workplace was the focus of a targeted campaign by a left-wing group. At one point they showed video, claiming that it showed as many as 300 people at the protest. They got this number by measuring the length of the sidewalk where the protest was occurring and dividing by how much space they thought each person took up. If you actually paused the video and counted it was closer to 30 or 40. I honestly don’t think this was an intentional deception – people were just really excited that the Revolution was finally starting.*

I’m assuming the 150 thing is probably the same – people who see a handful of people they don’t know and thus vastly overestimate how many showed up.

*Spoiler alert: the Revolution was not, in fact, happening.

occasional reader
occasional reader
5 years ago

> Kupo and Guy
Thank you very much for the informations.
Well, if you allow me, it is strange for a bit superstitious country like America, with no room 13, to allow such an “bad omen” name for a national place.

Anyway, the article speaks of the invaders not as terrorists but as some demonstrators who were initially coming to a close place for their demonstration. The article says they are protesting against something about “federal lands”, by opposition to “private lands”, or something like that. I do not know what it means and involves, so i can not judge.

LindsayIrene
5 years ago

It’s not just police that are at risk from this bunch–there’s a history of violence by anti-government types against park employees.

The arsonists have a history with Malheur Wildlife Refuge.

Mike
Mike
5 years ago

D’you think this anti-tax thing is because of a fundamentally poor grasp of Anglo-American history?

I think a big part of it is a sort of particular, longstanding American mistrust of the federal government in general, rather than any policy in particular; or even a mistrust of state governments, for that matter. Apparently Cliven Bundy – celebrated patriarch of the family so prominently involved in this takeover – draws a big chunk of his personal politics from Posse Comitatus: a 1960s-70s far-right, white-supremacist movement which insisted that governmental authority ends with the local sheriff. This movement can trace a direct lineage to some right-wing responses to the abolition of slavery: the idea, essentially, being that if the federal government was trying to outlaw slavery, well, then perhaps the federal government shouldn’t be invested with any sort of power whatsoever.

(Rachel Maddow has the goods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2VK4k-bBag )

So with that in mind, I’d say that as with so much right-wing extremism, it’s not about resisting/changing any particular law, and has more to do with a heady brew of racism, guns, misplaced religious fervor and toxic identity politics.

guy
guy
5 years ago

@occasional reader

This is a small subgroup of a larger protest in the nearby town. Overall story goes like this:

The US Federal Government directly owns significant chunks of land, and leases some of it out to private citizens for use as grazing land. Two ranchers had been grazing cattle on federal land, and on two seperate occasions intentionally started fires on it. The first time was allegedly to cover up evidence of illegal deer hunting. The second was to create a backfire to prevent nearby wildfires from destroying their winter grazing. While backfires are a legitimate firefighting technique*, they must be handled with care or risk getting out of control. This one was unauthorized and endangered firefighters fighting ongoing wildfires, during a period when Oregon had imposed a burn ban for precisely that reason. They were arrested and convicted under an anti-terrorism law with a minimum five-year sentence. The judge in the original case sentenced them to less than that. Now another judge has ruled that they need to serve out the minimum five years, which is what the protests are about.

This is related to the Clive Bundy incident. Bundy was a rancher in Nevada who had been grazing his cattle on federal land. The Bureau of Land Management updated the rules to protect an environmentally sensitive area. Bundy objected to the new rules and stopped paying the land use fee but kept grazing his cattle there. This spent years in the court system, and somewhat recently the Bureau of Land Management came back with a court order saying that if he didn’t remove his cattle they would remove them for him. Bundy refused and rallied a disturbingly large number of armed supporters. The government backed off and did not come back with tanks. Now Bundy’s sons are leading the group that has seized this building.

*Several aspects here. First, by burning an area before the main wildfire reaches it, it’s possible to destroy the fuel the wildfire would consume. The smaller fire is easier to contain and extinguish. Large trees may also survive a smaller fire but ignite in the path of a sufficiently large one if there’s enough flammable material around, though that’s usually dealt with by scheduled burns during off periods; ecologies in wildfire areas are somewhat dependent on regular fires and aggressive fire suppression without controlled burns can cause issues. Fires also spread based on the wind, and wildfires make their own wind. A backfire can disrupt air currents to weaken or divert the wildfire. It’s a somewhat risky technique because fires can move and grow unpredictably. Incidentally, this is the primary legitimate use of the Dragon’s Breath shotgun round, which fires a spray of burning magnesium.

mockingbird
mockingbird
5 years ago

The only way this makes any sense is if the militia members are deliberately trying to start a war.

Ding!Ding!Ding!

@Yacob – If they haven’t stated anything against policy per se (I’ve got to admit that I haven’t taken the time to read their statements/manifestos/whatevs), it’s only because (as I understand it) they don’t think that the Federal government can take any legitimate domestic action – that is, they’d define all domestic federal policy as illegitmate.

Soo.

Yeah.

While they’re not being currently violent, their actions have leapfrogged over being peaceful protest and towards being terrorism in that they’re heavily armed and have expressed a willingness (eagerness?) to partake in violence in order to force policy change.

Snow Leopard
Snow Leopard
5 years ago

I calls them as I sees them: terrorist thugs. Calling them militias is probably giving them an ego boost. Fuck that! They are terrorists! These assholes are obviously looking for a gun fight if they brought along weapons, but being white, they are looked at as being “peaceful protesters.”

Looks like a few brought their kids along, as well. What a new low these people sunk down to. Kind of feels like they’re being used as de facto hostages. Slime! All of them!

Miss Andry
5 years ago

Hey David,

I don’t have enough time for links but Vox Day and Hal Turner (check superstation95 for details) support the takeover. Andrew Anglin’s support is tepid. He says this just isn’t something he cares much about but will always back the people in disputes with the federal gov’t. Nothing at Alternative Right yet.

History Nerd
History Nerd
5 years ago

Most left-wing terrorism in the United States has involved destruction of property since the 1970’s and it’s mostly been environmental and animal rights activists. But destruction of property counts as “violence” in FBI crime statistics.

Generally speaking, left-wing groups in the US haven’t intentionally hurt people since the 1970’s. The Weather Underground was pretty much dead after the Vietnam War ended and a few New Communist Movement groups had paramilitary wings but never decided it was time to engage in “armed struggle” against the government. Much of the Radical Left eventually joined the left of the Democratic Party.

I think the far right in the US has been ideologically similar to more radical fascist groups like the Nazis since at least the nineteenth century. The point of the lebensraum policy was to expand Germany’s territory into Eastern Europe and kill, deport, or assimilate (or “Germanize”) the population. So the Nazis were closer to supporting a quasi-anarchist society based on land that would be similar to the United States. Anti-Semitism fit in because people perceived Jews as leftists and internationalists.

History Nerd
History Nerd
5 years ago

The Federal Government is probably cautious about open confrontations with these people because of what happened at Waco. These people likely would use violence if the government sent military in.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Passing Stranger
January 4, 2016 at 7:04 am

This must be one of those subtleties of USAian English that those of us elsewhere don’t understand:
The collective noun for armed black people is ‘thugs’
The collective noun for armed brown people is ‘terrorists’
The collective noun for armed white people is ‘militia’

Actually, the collective noun for armed AND unarmed PoC is “thugs” if they’re black, and “terrorists” if they’re brown.

BLM had no weapons and were still called “thugs” and “violent”. They were accused of “looting” while stores who could easily afford to replace their stock (and were most likely well insured) were shut down and the citizens of the city couldn’t get basic necessities for living.

Peaceful gatherings of Muslim people will still get labeled “terrorism” and “ISIS” by pearl-clutching conservative white folks, but that’s mostly because gatherings of people-not-like-them are scary.

It doesn’t matter if they are armed or not. Apparently us white people like our projection, and won’t admit when we’re wrong.

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

@occasional reader

Thank you very much for the informations.
Well, if you allow me, it is strange for a bit superstitious country like America, with no room 13, to allow such an “bad omen” name for a national place.

De rien. 🙂

I’m guessing it’s a combination of factors. Once a place has been named it’s a lot of paperwork to rename it, so the original French name has stuck. Plus the people who live there probably have no idea what it means so they don’t likely see it as a bad omen. I’m more surprised that the Grand Teton mountain range has kept it’s name, what with how the meaning is fairly common knowledge and we Americans seem to find anything to do with breasts to be dirty and shameful.

katz
5 years ago

Someone on Twitter pointed out that “Vanilla ISIS,” “Y’all Quaeda,” “yeehawd,” “cowliphate,” etc are all comparing white people behaving badly to brown people, which implies that terrorism is a thing brown people do and white terrorists are just copying them, and glosses over how white terrorism is a homegrown American thing.

So I’ll stop using those terms, even though they’re really funny.

dlouwe
dlouwe
5 years ago

@katz

That is a very good point. I hadn’t used the terms myself, but had thought them pretty damn funny. Will restrain from spreading their usage!

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

“Tearrorists.”

History Nerd
History Nerd
5 years ago

Well I wasn’t aware of this until a few minutes ago: http://www.democracynow.org/2015/12/15/daniel_holtzclaw_convicted_of_serial_rape

I don’t really agree with “snowball” consecutive sentencing. But I think serial rapist types should get at least de facto life sentences.

History Nerd
History Nerd
5 years ago

Or I take that back. I hope he gets the maximum sentence.

Saphira
Saphira
5 years ago

They’re now on Facebook begging people to mail them food and supplies. http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/oregon-terrorists-dont-plan-siege-very-well-put-out-plea-for-snacks-and-supplies–ZJglh9sRjx

They honestly think the good old Postal Service is going to drive on up and give them care packages? From what a friend on Facebook says, nobody is allowed into the area now, even if the USPS wanted to make the delivery. Some have apparently left to get food, but haven’t been allowed to return. I’m hoping that’s true, but I can’t find confirmation of it.

I love this Twitter response to the call for food that’s in the article:

Take your guns and hunt for your own damn snacks you paragons of boot-strappy manhood.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

Someone on Twitter pointed out that “Vanilla ISIS,” “Y’all Quaeda,” “yeehawd,” “cowliphate,” etc are all comparing white people behaving badly to brown people, which implies that terrorism is a thing brown people do and white terrorists are just copying them, and glosses over how white terrorism is a homegrown American thing.

That point of view rests on a presumption that terrorist groups, for instance ISIS and al Qaeda, are equivalent to Middle Easterners, and accepting it as valid reinforces the notion that ME’s = terrorists. It reserves the most known terms for terrorism for brown people and exempts white people from even a comparison to them. There’s nothing race-sensitive about that.

I fully support any decision to not use them, but I wouldn’t not use them for that specific reason, because that reason is kind of racist.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Saphira | January 4, 2016 at 8:18 pm
I love this Twitter response to the call for food that’s in the article:

Take your guns and hunt for your own damn snacks you paragons of boot-strappy manhood.

I loved that one too. It’s rather telling of how “organized” they are that they’re what, a day or so in and they’re already begging for supplies?

Bina
5 years ago

Let’s not forget that white people HAVE already joined Middle-Eastern terror groups, so even “Islamist” terrorism is hardly a brown-people-only thing. In fact, recent converts to Islam are more likely than those born and raised Muslim to do so, because they feel a need to prove that they are Muslim-er than thou, I guess.

I’m going to go on using the funny terms, because it points up the racist hypocrisy of the media in glossing over how right-wing home-grown bozos are a bigger terror risk than the groups we’re constantly being told to fear (and shouldn’t).

Meanwhile, and germane to the subject, there IS a religious element to all this, and it’s Mormon:

“There is this persecution complex that Mormons have and have had for a long time,” Steve Evans, editor of the popular Mormon blog By Common Consent, told BuzzFeed News Sunday.

But the story of Mormonism’s relationship with authority is more complicated than a simple one about conflict and persecution. Evans — who counts himself among the many in the church who disapprove of Bundy’s actions — pointed out that Mormons see the U.S. government and constitution as divinely appointed, so when complaints about authority arise, they are viewed as the government straying from its purpose.

“You see two sort of counter currents going through Mormon history,” Evans said. “You see this major theme of ‘this country is here because God wants us to be here.’ And you see ‘we’re an oppressed minority, the government doesn’t always do what’s right.’”

Read the whole thing, it lays it out pretty well.

Also, there is (surprise surprise) a strong element of white supremacism/separatism in there. As well as land-grabbing greed on the part of the so-called “militia” (who, as is usual for those types, do not know what that word really means. It does not mean what they think it means.) Bakunin (the commenter) nailed it above when pointing out that these guys are NOT anarchists. They are would-be oligarchs, most likely. The kind who think nothing should be public, and everything should belong to them; that they are a higher law unto themselves, and that the democratic will of the people (to whom that public building and bird sanctuary belong) means nothing.

And judging by other things I’ve read, the people they came out there purporting to fight for are bloody incompetent ranchers, burning off federal land that they had no right to, when they knew, or should have known, that forest fires were especially bad that year. Hence the arson charges. Their increased sentences were not “overreach” on the part of zealous feds, but rather an overturning of a lower judge’s incorrect (too short) sentence for arson on federal lands. They have since surrendered to the authorities, leaving the Bundy-led “militia” hanging high and dry, with no public support — the locals in Oregon all want them the hell out of their state, and who can blame them?

As for the Bundys, they’re deadbeats who think federally-administered lands should belong to them, and that they should not pay leasing fees for grazing their own cattle on them. They apparently think that the land should be finders-keepers, losers-weepers, and that it should belong to them because they grazed some cows on it. Sovereign Citizen idiots, in a nutshell. Hence the idea that they constitute some kind of law unto themselves — and again, proof that they don’t know what words mean. Just as al-Q and other “Islamic” terror groups don’t understand that “jihad” actually means not waging holy war on the ground against “infidels”, but within oneself, and against sinful impulses such as greed, avarice, cruelty, and general stupidity.

Miss Andry
5 years ago

Got something else for you. Matt Forney weighed in at RoK.

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

ABC News

@ABC

Peaceful protest followed by Oregon wildlife refuge action: http://abcn.ws/22ECxVp

Follow
Sour Kraut @eldritchengines

@ABC You misspelled “armed terrorists take over federal building” there. Easy mistake to make. #FuckYouBundy #Bundy #NRA #terrorists
9:06 PM – 2 Jan 2016

Lots more of these at https://hiphopwired.com/2016/01/03/oregon-under-attack-cliven-bundy-militia/2/

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Tangential to this:
Does anyone know which tribe that land belonged to prior to the American arrival, and how recently said tribe lost it?

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

From this map it looks like maybe Northern Paiute.
http://www.native-languages.org/oregon.htm

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Thanks WWTH. A little cursory googling about the Northern Paiute history gives the dates 1878-1879. If anyone knows anything more in-depth, I’d be very grateful.

Terrabeau
Terrabeau
5 years ago

Take your guns and hunt for your own damn snacks you paragons of boot-strappy manhood.

Oh, fuck no. Please don’t encourage them to shoot animals. They’re on a wildlife refuge with tons of sensitive species on it. If these idiots start yee-hawing and shooting the place up with their assault rifles, there’s no telling how much damage they could do.

occasional reader
occasional reader
5 years ago

> Guy
Thank you for this detailled explanation, clearer than the articles we have here !
The plot of arsoning your own goods is alas not new. We have some case here too, especially in Corsica (that, and phantom goats…). Good thing they have been caught, because it is pretty dangerous for the neighborhood.
Ok, i think i see the points of the case. There are also farmer protests in France. Well, it is generally oil station blocades, or tons of rotten vegetable spilling in front of administration buildings. They may have their farm tools with them, but hardly show them because the police response may be really harsh if they dare. Same thing with hunting rifle, possibly even harsher (?).
This is happening in Oregon. If this had happened in a different state, do you think the response of the authority would have been different ?

> Kupo
Ha ha, yeah, i guess you are right. We have our lot of “bridge / forest of the hanged”, “cooking pot of the devil” (sorry, rough translation) and other ill-named places.
About “Teton”, well, yes, i suppose it could be shocking in your country. As it is also a word used (here) for the part of some metallic pieces and small mountain pics, it is less shocking here 🙂

All in all, i hope this is not going to degenerate.

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

And here’s a Daily Kos story from New Year’s Eve about a minister who did the opposite of these militia members. He disarmed a distraught man who could have shot up his church:

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/1/4/1465991/-Pastor-courageously-disarms-distraught-gunman-as-60-church-members-face-New-Years-Eve-massacre

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ Paradoxy

while stores who could easily afford to replace their stock (and were most likely well insured) were shut down and the citizens of the city couldn’t get basic necessities for living.

Something doesn’t quite sit right for me with the “It’s ok because the victims are insured argument”. Ignoring the fact that many policies specifically exclude losses from ‘riot’ there’s the owners and staff to think about. Staff workers caught up in the London riots reported how terrifying it was.

Are you saying that they should be forced to keep stores open during such an experience?

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
5 years ago

Regarding place names, there’s also the fact that once a name is there, it’s usually stuck; I know that in Washington State, for example, there are some places with names like Point No Point or Cape Disappointment. Really, look it up!

(I guess perhaps Americans aren’t as superstitious as you imagine…)

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
5 years ago

(And then, of course, there’s Hell, Michigan)