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Open Thread: The “militia” takeover of a federal building in Oregon

Armed fanatics seeking controntation somehow not terrorists
Armed fanatics seeking confrontation, somehow not terrorists

Apparently the US media doesn’t really think it’s a big deal for a small army of heavily armed fanatics to take over government property in hopes of spurring some sort of armed revolution — if the armed fanatics in question are white guys.

Share information, insights, etc.

And, as you may already be aware, alt-right trolls are actively spreading misinformation about this standoff, so if you run across any of that please point it out here as well.

No trolls, MRAs, etc.

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Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

http://i.imgur.com/7mLRYSN.jpg

Filth. This is absolute racist filth.

cleverforagirl
cleverforagirl
5 years ago

Thank you Mr. Futrelle! I’ve been having a helluva time finding up to date info.

GiJoel
GiJoel
5 years ago

I guess they’re sending the police to all the real terrorist. You know black people, feminists, and sjws. /sarcasm

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 years ago

How can this happen, seriously ?

Marinerachel
Marinerachel
5 years ago

I am beyond confused about this. I didn’t even realise the first few references I was hearing to a militia takeover were to a literal and not hypothetical event. It’s just too bizarre for words. I obviously need to do a bunch of reading but I have a feeling this isn’t going to seem a whole lot more reasonable after I’ve done so.

Kootiepatra
5 years ago

Thing that I could kind of understand (while still giving a heavy side eye): Claiming this group’s remote location makes them less of an immediate threat to life and limb than, say, a riot in a heavily populated area.

Thing that I cannot fathom at all: Claiming that 150 people, armed to the teeth, organized, and taking over a government building is “peaceful”, and/or not that scary. The fact that we have ANY “militia” on US soil, who are willing to do something besides whine on the internet, is incredibly serious and frightening. The fact that they’re good ol’ boy white dudes does precisely nothing to reduce how scary it is. Or at least, it shouldn’t.

Terrabeau
Terrabeau
5 years ago

I’m personally not too worried about the whole thing. The gunmen are monstrously exaggerating the size of their group (claiming 150, but independent observers are saying 15-24). and they don’t actually have the support of the men they’re claiming to represent. As a propaganda war, they’re already on the losing side.

Still, it’s fascinating to note how different the response is to this when compared to, say, the Black Lives Matter movement. I don’t think either the media or the public at large seem marginally as frightened by the idea of armed white people fighting an armed insurrection against the government as they seem to be by unarmed black protesters.

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

@Kootiepatra – the “militia” claim to have 200 people, eyewitnesses have said that it’s more like 2 dozen.

It’s still utterly beyond cheeky of them, though.

For context, is Cliven Bundy the same wipe-rag who consistently drives his cattle illegally across federal land on the basis that all of America belongs to him, the non-tax-payer?

I’d love to see the National Guard called in with tanks to put these neo-libertarian extremists on the naughty-step, but it’s pretty clear that any kind of escalation would likely trigger those other neo-libertarian gun-toters to kick off in civillian areas.

I don’t know how much land they have covered already – the ringleader said they’d be building houses and putting up a small settlement, but if they’re reasonably confined, I’d just fence them in and see how long it takes for them to surrender into custody.

It’s piss-takers like them that ruin everything for everyone else.

katz
5 years ago

Even if you assume they’re not dangerous at all, which is extremely unfounded, they still have the stated goal of using intimidation and force to be allowed to break any laws they want so they can do whatever the hell they want, regardless of the impact on other people.

Even if there’s no violence involved, you still can’t behave like that if you live in a society with other human beings.

newbie
newbie
5 years ago

White macho posturing at its stupidest.

Jon Morgan
Jon Morgan
5 years ago

As a non-US observer I found this summary of what’s going on in Rolling Stone particularly useful: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/wtf-is-happening-in-the-oregon-militia-standoff-explained-20160103

(May already have been superseded by other sources.)

Also as a non-US observer, I’m bound to say that I’m certain an armed group of citizens taking over a government facility, no matter the type or location, would be taken a lot more seriously here in the UK, and I’d assume in most other countries.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

The only way this makes any sense is if the militia members are deliberately trying to start a war. When the cops initially didn’t show up with guns blazing, the rhetoric got fiercer:

“This will become a base place for patriots from all over the country to come to be housed and live here.

“We’re planning on staying here for several years. And while we’re here, what we’re going to be doing is we’re going to be freeing these lands up, getting the ranchers back to ranching, getting the miners back to mining, getting the loggers back to logging, where they can do it all under the protection of the people.”

I get the horrible feeling that these people are trying to become martyrs.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

For context, is Cliven Bundy the same wipe-rag who consistently drives his cattle illegally across federal land on the basis that all of America belongs to him, the non-tax-payer?

Yep, it’s the same Cliven Bundy. The one who’s already gotten away scott free with one armed standoff against the government.

Muslim men can’t freely worship at their Mosques. Black men can’t freely walk down the street. But he can freely commit treason. Twice. So much for LOSING HIS FREEDUMBS.

*angry GLaDOS noises*

katz
5 years ago

I don’t know how much land they have covered already – the ringleader said they’d be building houses and putting up a small settlement, but if they’re reasonably confined, I’d just fence them in and see how long it takes for them to surrender into custody.

Since they’re already begging for supplies and, according to Twitter, their supply room looks like this, it shouldn’t be long.

comment image

scarlettpipstrelle
scarlettpipstrelle
5 years ago

The ringleaders may end up like the Browns (the tax resisters who holed up in their home for a time). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown

newbie
newbie
5 years ago

Yep re: martyrs. There is no good way to end this idiotic stunt, and they know it.

These f-tards are terrorists, plain and simple — a Christofascist equivalent of ISIS.

scarlettpipstrelle
scarlettpipstrelle
5 years ago

Some are posting “goodbye” videos. This article contains the term “ammosexual” too.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/3/1465762/-No-Fed-Action-Planned-but-Oregon-Militia-Loons-Post-Hilarious-Goodbye-Videos

Here is some information about the Mormon religious terminology being used by these guys:

http://www.opb.org/news/article/explainer-the-bundy-militias-particular-brand-of-mormonism/

Walter
Walter
5 years ago

I wonder if they were hoping this would turn into a Fort Sumter situation and start another civil war. I say this because they did seem to be begging for some kind of police action.

Spindrift
Spindrift
5 years ago

@newbie

These f-tards are terrorists

No ableism, please.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

And of course they’re not terrorists. They’re staging a “peaceful protest”. With guns. They’ve said they’re prepared to “kill or be killed”, but they’re not fucking terrorists, amirite Mainstream Media?

BLM are “rioters and looters”. Muslim people can’t worship in peace without threats of violence from jackasses like these. And yet, these men are still not terrorists in the eyes of mainstream media.

White men never are, because white men control the media. And they would never demonize one of their own.

Luckily enough though, there’s plenty of people on social media who aren’t going to eat this shit up, and are calling it like it is.

And fuck their reasons for this bullshit too. We have national parks and government property for a reason. And that reason isn’t for wealthy white douchebags to stampede their cattle all over. He has more than enough land for himself and his fucking cows. If he doesn’t think he does, then he’s more than welcome to thin his herd by selling livestock.

I know it’s beyond hope to wish for this, but I sincerely hope all these men are arrested and tried for treason. Or at the very least they all just get arrested. Gods know that they’re not going to get hurt for this beyond being slapped on the wrist.

Yacob14
Yacob14
5 years ago

Well, the media’s gotten onto it now, certainly. But like others have said, there’s very few of them and they don’t pose any threat to civilians or civilian property. It certainly doesn’t warrant any comparisons to Al Quaeda or even the looting that went on during past protests. These guys are only setting themselves up for humiliation.

Going by the FBI definition of domestic terrorism, which describe activity to “influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion”, then, yeah, it is terrorism in a narrow sense. Although they aren’t claiming to be going after policy. The full definition is mainly concerned with harm to civilians.

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

@Terrabeau

The gunmen are monstrously exaggerating the size of their group (claiming 150, but independent observers are saying 15-24).

My boyfriend pointed out to me earlier today that if 150 people were staying in the wildlife refuge building (it has a gift shop!), conditions would be extremely overcrowded.

I told him that my hunch was that they had no more than 25.

Like ISIS, they’ve put out a call to sympathizers to come help them. But how will these sympathizers get there? Surely law enforcement will block the roads. And how do they think that they can clear land and build houses without getting arrested? Do they hope that so many white men will rush to their aid that the government will be stymied?

The government should cut off power and water to this group. They’ll quickly abandon their plan.

katz
5 years ago

Yacob14: Looters destroyed a CVS that can easily be replaced. These guys are despoiling an irreplaceable, priceless wildlife refuge.

Selt
Selt
5 years ago

Fucking idiots, one and all.

They’ve seized something worth jack and shit, the criminals they purport to be supporting want nothing to do with them, and everybody who even so much as hears about them thinks they’re wannabe martyrs.

By the by, this isn’t Cliven Bundy himself, though I understand it’s being organized and led by two of his pissant sons.

Much the same way as it went down at the Dumbdy scene, I expect these guys are gonna get starved out, have internal conflicts, break up, and eventually get arrested one at a time.

Can you get that I have nothing but disrespect and scorn for these wastes of space and ammo? Better for us all that they get ignored and end up failing in their attention-seeking behaviors.

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

@Yacob14

But like others have said, there’s very few of them and they don’t pose any threat to civilians or civilian property.

How is it that you know that they don’t pose a threat to civilians or civilian property? IMHO, your faith in your psychic powers is far too great.

Also, what makes you think that we care only about civilians?

Say, do you happen to be hanging out in a remote spot in Oregon with a bunch of other “patriots”?

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

It certainly doesn’t warrant any comparisons to Al Quaeda or even the looting that went on during past protests.

Does anybody else hear dogs barking?

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

@SFHC – Wow, I hope the feds make an example of him and his 2 sons, and seize their assets. That’d learn ’em. Can they do that? I dunno what you do to treasonous swine in Oregon, but here, it used to be a hanging offense, and now it’s a life sentence.

@Katz – That makes their man-trum even more pathetic – they’ll have to come out with their tails between their legs by Tuesday lunchtime. *chuckle* I can’t imagine they have the convictions or the stamina to even go peckish, nevermind hold out a siege to the death.

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

@SFHC

Does anybody else hear dogs barking?

I do.

Is that Sarah Palin I see holding a shiny whistle?

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 years ago

I can see them not being ISIS yet, but I can’t see them being better than looting during protestations.

And “yet” is an important word. If we let them, they can be worse.

Nequam
Nequam
5 years ago

I wish I could weaponize the norovirus that hit my husband, me, my friend’s daughter, and now her.

Seeing these guys wallowing in their own puke and diarrheic shit for a few days would give me a feeling of deep satisfaction.

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

@Nequam

Seeing these guys wallowing in their own puke and diarrheic shit for a few days would give me a feeling of deep satisfaction.

No matter what the topic is, the conversation always returns to Paul Elam.

And Roosh.

Yacob14
Yacob14
5 years ago

@Kat

Bundy did say that they didn’t want to get any civilians involved. Of course, that’s just his words, and anything can certainly happen with martyrdom-seekers like these guys. Still, I think it’s a good sign that they aren’t actively seeking out hostages. That building was empty when they took it. All of that, and given that these guys aren’t affiliated with a movement that murders civilians (Islamic terrorism, for example), I think it’s reasonable to assume we won’t see any civilian casualties.

Honestly I couldn’t give two shits about the militia guys or the feds that have to deal with them, if that’s what else you’re worried about. My best friend goes on about the benefits of anarchism, and I guess it’s rubbing off on me a little bit.

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

@ Yacob – if they’re “willing to kill and be killed”, what do you think could happen to the law enforcement folks who are sent out to deal with them?

Where are the “Blue Lives Matter” brigade when they’re forced to deal with gun-waving Whites?

I’m glad that they haven’t taken hostages or gone out of their way to commit violence… so far.
I don’t know if any of them really want bloodshed, but they’re sure talking in a way that makes that seem like a thing they’re prepared to do.

The threat in itself is an act of terrorism.

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

@Yacob14

All of that, and given that these guys aren’t affiliated with a movement that murders civilians (Islamic terrorism, for example), I think it’s reasonable to assume we won’t see any civilian casualties.

Well, if they’re not Muslims, I guess that they’re okay.

And an empty government building? That must mean that anyone can take it.

But let’s get real. These people are armed. Anything can happen. That’s not the way to try to get the government to listen to you.

Don’t blame your friend for the fact that you don’t care about government employees risking their lives to deal with these people.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

I’m glad I now live in Cornwall where our terrorists are a bit rubbish:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/1378477/Only-one-man-turns-up-to-Cornwall-extremist-rally.html

Moggie
Moggie
5 years ago

LARPers are so embarrassing.

Nequam
Nequam
5 years ago

@Kat:

Nequam
Nequam
5 years ago

Oh, and it looks like these brave freedum fighters may be planning to use their children as meat shields:

http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/us/oregon-militia-members-now-bringing-their-children-into-the-compound

Terrabeau
Terrabeau
5 years ago

All of that, and given that these guys aren’t affiliated with a movement that murders civilians (Islamic terrorism, for example), I think it’s reasonable to assume we won’t see any civilian casualties.

However, they are part of a movement that treats police, soldiers and other government employees as the representatives of an evil system, and therefore sees them as free game. Even if this attitude is usually expressed in assholish yet harmless behaviour, there have been cases of Sovereign Citizens murdering police officers for doing their jobs.

This leads in to what Bundy &co are seeking in this attack, which is a Waco-style shootout with government forces, ending in their martyrdom at the hands of the system they despise. They want to lend credence to their cause, and the fact that they get to kill police while doing it is an added bonus.

That’s why they’re exaggerating their numbers, taking their children with them and making threats of violence; all of it is an attempt to get the government to take the first shot, thus confirming their radical beliefs. As others have said before, the best way the state can handle this situation is by holding the siege: cut off their power and water and wait for them to lay down their arms.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 years ago

Yes, the government should make thoses assholes surrender.

Or maybe they will starve to death, but I doubt it. They don’t seem anywhere near fanaticized enough to starve themselves to the end.

Kootiepatra
5 years ago

Bringing their kids? How and why are new people still being allowed to access the site?

Pete’s sake. I get why law enforcement would be reluctant to actively engage, but shouldn’t they be doing SOMETHING?

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Comparing these people to Daesh is a little unfair. To Daesh, that is.

80%-90% of Daesh soldiers in Syria and Iraq are locals, usually from the towns they’re fighting in. The Bundy militia has had to import 100% of their people since the locals have been pretty wary of showing them support.

Daesh has an intelligent leader with an extreme and hateful ideology, but clear goals which he’s been pretty open about. The Bundy militia either have no idea what they’re doing, or don’t want to tell the rest of us what it is.

Daesh want to establish a caliphate on behalf of a man who wants to be caliph. The Bundy militia want to fight for a person who doesn’t want them to fight for him, and has been fairly vocal about not wanting their help.

Daesh has significant support from religious leaders around the world. The Bundy militia has had religious leaders back away from them, even those who have been urging something like this.

Daesh has had other extremist and terrorist groups pledge loyalty to them. The Bundy militia has seen other extremist groups distance themselves in order to avoid losing public sympathy.

Daesh uses social media extremely well. The Bundy militia… not so much.

In short, the Daesh are evil, but they’re good at being evil. They’re a professional organisation worth talking to seriously. The Bundy militia on the other hand are far from that. This is a clownshoes bunch of fantasists who are going to get themselves and other people hurt. Nothing more.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ kootiepatra

Weirdly, the occupiers are inviting anyone (other than law enforcement) to pop into the compound and say hello, and the authorities are allowing that.

Seems an unusual situation for what is effectively an armed siege, but I suppose it avoids creating another flashpoint if people are held at a boundary.

Wetherby
Wetherby
5 years ago

I cannot think of a single European country where these people wouldn’t automatically be regarded as terrorists and where this notion wouldn’t be considered controversial.

And this goes double for the UK, where we’ve long been used to the notion of pale-skinned and clean-shaven terrorists. And not always with Irish accents – the Sons of Glendower had a charming hobby of setting fire to Welsh houses owned by English people in order to drive the English out of Wales, which is clearly open-and-shut terrorism regardless of the lack of actual corpses).

Passing Stranger
Passing Stranger
5 years ago

This must be one of those subtleties of USAian English that those of us elsewhere don’t understand:
The collective noun for armed black people is ‘thugs’
The collective noun for armed brown people is ‘terrorists’
The collective noun for armed white people is ‘militia’

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 years ago

“I cannot think of a single European country where these people wouldn’t automatically be regarded as terrorists and where this notion wouldn’t be considered controversial.”

Arguably, France, with conditions. Farmed without firearms have been known to do pretty fucked things in public office without real repercussions.

There were also the taximen who did “not quite violent but pretty fucked up” actions against Uber, including some who could have ended up with casualties.

Now, the “without firearm” is important, and it was more trying to force the governement to do something they wanted to do anyway than that.

Lisa C
Lisa C
5 years ago

Thanks for posting the Oregon Live article, @Inconstant Reader.

Did anyone see this article yet?

http://usuncut.com/news/5-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-oregon-militia-takeover/

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 years ago

I mean farmer, not farmed. Typo 😡

occasional reader
occasional reader
5 years ago

Hello.

Here, we have this article about this event.
The article does not speak about a building but about the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Is it about a building in this parc ? (on another hand, is this the real name ? Because, as malheur means misfortune/bad luck, it is a bit strange).

Have a nice day.

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