It’s not exactly news, at this point, that more and more online media outlets have given up on their comment sections, shutting them down because they don’t have the time or money or patience to deal with the cesspools of vitriol and hate they’ve become.
Popular Science kicked off the wave of comment section closing back in 2013. Since then, comments have been removed from the sites of media giants like CNN, Reuters and Bloomberg; from major newspapers like The Chicago Sun-Times and the Toronto Star; and from a wide assortment of online outlets including re/code, Mic, The Verge and Vice’s Motherboard. Most sites regard the decision to close comments as one that is both sad and necessary.
But one site is touting what seems to be the impending end of online comments — at least on sites unwilling or unable to moderate the hell out of them — as a huge victory.
In a recent fundraising appeal on his site A Voice for Men, Men’s Rights elder Paul Elam happily takes credit for making the comments sections of other sites so poisonous for so many people that those who run the sites are increasingly crying “uncle” and shutting them down.
Elam doesn’t phrase it quite so bluntly, of course. He sees the closing of comment sections as proof that feminists (and presumably everyone else disgusted by AVFM) just can’t handle the TRUTH.
“The free pass for feminists has been revoked,” he declares.
Many Major websites that continue to run misandric bullshit now often have two words in common at the end of their hateful posts.
Comments Closed. That is now a common reaction of the feminist media in the wake of average people clobbering them with dissent and ridicule.
Apparently calling women the c-word is a form of “dissent.”
Elam goes on to suggest that AVFM has led the way in making virtually everyone so disgusted by Men’s Rights activists and other, er, “dissenters” that they’ve given up on the possibility of civil discourse online.
Again, Elam doesn’t put it quite this way. He claims to be “changing the cultural narrative,” dontcha know?
I can say with certainty and pride that it was AVFM that kicked the door in on all of it. We took the daggers thrown at us by mainstream media across the western world and pushed back defiantly.
Don’t flatter yourself, dude. While AVFM and its flying monkey squad of comment-section-poisoners has definitely played a role in making the comment sections of a number of media sites even bigger cesspools than they already were, AVFM hasn’t singlehandedly ruined online comments forever.
Many other terrible people have played their part — white supremacists, GamerGaters, white-supremacist GamerGaters, the list goes on and on.
Here at We Hunted the Mammoth, of course, we know that you don’t have to shut down your comment sections to prevent them from being overrun by malignant jerkfaces. Instead, you can simply close your comments to malignant jerkfaces like Elam and his crew, inviting some of them in only as a source of amusement and banning them quickly when and if they start flinging poo.
Discuss. (Not you, MRA jerkfaces.)
And that’s their real problem. Not just because of the patriarchy problem. Never forget their underlying economic-political attitudes. The problems of dangerous work injuring and killing men, of the lack of suitable work with decent pay for many men who are not tertiary or trade qualified, of the imprisonment rate of men … all of these problems would best be addressed by men joining or supporting unions or political parties or community groups that had policies to address those issues.
All of which is absolute anathema to these clowns who favour political and economic ideas that disadvantage them far more than any woman ever could.
I really wish Yahoo would shut theirs down. They’ve got to be the absolute worst of the lot.
Of interest: “CBC’s racist comment sections spark debate on Canada’s prejudice problem” http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/04/cbc-racist-comment-section-canada-prejudice-indigenous-people
“When indigenous writer and teacher Chelsea Vowel reads the comments on her articles, she feels physically ill. “I have had people threaten to find out where I live,” the Montreal resident told the Guardian in an email. “I’ve seen people call for sterilization of indigenous people, suggest that people blocking roads in protest should be shot or run over and say that I should be raped and murdered.””
And here is the CBC statement: http://www.cbc.ca/newsblogs/community/editorsblog/2015/11/uncivil-dialogue-commenting-and-stories-about-indigenous-people.html
I agree Joel. I look at the comments like looking at a car wreck.
No impudence intended (as a stranger around these parts) but … you say that like it’s a bad thing o.o
How much time does Futrelle spend moderating comments for WHTM?
Another reason a men’s movement isn’t all that needed is that most of the problems MRAs cite are part of a separate issue. Like prison reform. Long prison sentences affect men of color disproportionately. At the same time, women of color face the same issue and times are targeted for punishment in misogynistic ways. For example, poor women of color are frequently drug tested without their consent while they’re in the hospital to give birth. A men’s movement wouldn’t address this issue well. Prison reform should be part of anti-racism. Or you could go more the anti-capitalism route with prison reform activism and go after the prison industrial complex.
Men working needlessly dangerous jobs is a labor rights issue. One that again you shouldn’t leave women out of. The chemicals in nail polish harm manicurists. Or what about the nurses who got Ebola in the US because there aren’t policies in place to adequately protect nurses from infectious disease.
I closed my comment section a few months ago, because those who wanted to abuse the section had learned that every comment they wrote was sent to moderation. The result of this was that trolls began sending nasty notes addressed to me personally via the comment system- comments they knew would never get hosted, and which they probably wouldn’t have sent if they thought they had a chance of being public.
Another result is that one of the last posts with open comments still gets new comments, from people frustrated they can’t comment on some other post. It also pisses off the subjects of my posts, who seem to think they have a right to comment to my posts in space I’m paying for.
It’s sad that I can’t have a comments section, because there are people who want to comment in good faith; but they were dwarfed by people who simply wanted to append pages of abuse to the end of my postings.
Corporations and major media outlets like money, and they like money more than they like adding additional employees/raising employee pay so that the toxic sewage can be moderated out of comment sections. If Paul Elam’s goal was to further erode regular people’s ability to speak freely, raise objections to corporate/media practices in a constructive bile-free way, and give CEOs/Shareholders/Politicians even more opportunity to ride roughshod over the rights of the ‘average person’ – congratulations to him, also, some hand gesturing F-U – may there be a bunch of legos in his future.
It’s a common right-wing political tactic to pay people or make a bunch of sock puppets to comment on articles to make it look like there’s widespread support for extreme positions. It probably happens on the left also but it’s more of a modus operandi on the far right.
With social media, you just need to use crowd psychology to get people to post angry comments for you. That’s how GamerGate worked.
EJ wrote:
“I feel that there are a lot of men’s issues which have to be handled outside of mainstream feminism. A good example of this might be convincing men to visit the doctor regularly, a seemingly-minor thing but which has very large consequences.”
and
“The root causes of many men’s issues, in my opinion, are the same as the root causes of many women’s issues: gender essentialism, predetermined gender roles, […]”
Right.
Orion wrote: “Men’s problems aren’t caused by women; they’re mostly caused by other men.”
I disagree. Women are equally responsible; we are not immune to social conditioning and we (inadvertently) perpetuate it. However, given that men currently have more influence in a patriarchy by definition, they, erm, have more influence with other men.
We’re all conditioned into narrow binary gender role but we need to recognise that we are also all responsible for perpetuating them.
I believe that mothers, sisters, wives and daughters need to take responsibility for encouraging and praising their sons, brothers and husbands when they conform to male stereotypes of strength, bravery and not showing weakness. And for actively shaming boys with an interest in “girly” pursuits. (Same for all for encouraging and rewarding girls and women for their beauty, youth and sex appeal.)
Feminism is the currently the only thing that recognises that we are in a mess of our own making. The Miss Representation project is a good example of feminist activism that addresses all genders.
Paola
Paul Elam, claiming every failure as a victory since forever.
I shouldn’t even be surprised at this one, this is a guy who claimed having to cancel his conference as a victory.
What do MRA actually do that is of good use?
I’ve been actively discussing feminism on Twitter since #YesAllWomen – I think I have heard all the talking points by the anti-feminists now. For example, they say that all feminists do is whine and are “professional victims” but, to be honest, that describes every interaction I’ve had with an MRA or anti-feminist, and every MRA blog I’ve seen.
They ask what I’m doing for men, whether I care about men’s problems. When I ask what THEY are doing for men, besides arguing with feminists on Twitter, they (only ever) say that give money to men’s groups.
What do these men’s groups do with the money besides publish their anti-feminist rants? Paul Elam’s post suggests that the AVFM money only goes towards creating more anti-feminist content.
Is there any organised positive activism, such as to lobby changes to the law, to commission research into more birth control options for men, to provide shelters for male victims of domestic violence, to visit men in prisons, provide positive role models?
Paola
CBC has closed commenting on all stories about indigenous issues because the racists would turn out in force there. Other stories not so much, but those? They had to just close them all before any flying monkeys showed up. That’s how bad it’s gotten.
@Joel:
I always thought that Youtube comments were the absolute worst.
@EJ
YouTube is pretty bad but it’s not ubiquitous. It’s not everywhere, all the time. Virtually all of Yahoo is an utter cesspool. It’s where reason goes to die. Yahoo is like the trailer park discussion area. Got a beef and not an ounce of logic or sense, then you go to Yahoo.
@WWTH
Well said. You could say that every legitimate men’s issue that can be brought up has its roots in an intersectionality problem and is not actually an exclusive men’s issue. Quite on the contrary, the examples you brought up highlight how often said problems actually harm other groups more frequently. Even toxic masculinity, a legitimate concept sadly too often used to reassure men that feminism seeks to helps them, too, is really a much worse problem for other groups.
Now, before someone states the obvious, it is no secret that feminism does not have a stellar record when it comes to intersectionality. The treatment of WoC and trans women are two examples that pop up often, and for good reason. However, feminism has actually evolved into being more inclusive. The MRM does not, and will not evolve. Hell, the toxic ideas MRAs embrace include a resistance to new ideas, since in their world, admitting a mistake is a sign of weakness. The MRM not only abuses the concept of intersectionality (erasing racism by claiming problems of the prison industrial complex are a men’s issue), but outright denies its existence (by coining “female privilege” and other ridiculous concepts). MRAs live in a social conservative backwards land, and no amount of discussion about their pet issues would be enough for them since they do not actually want to change things.
@Lkeke35:
Thanks. That sounds really grim; I’m glad I don’t have first-hand experience of it.
Also, this:
Would be the best advertising slogan ever.
Paul, earlier this year: “Activism? Shouting at people on the internet IS our activism!”
Paul, now: “Internet comment boards have been shut down! Now no-one can do any shouting, not even us! Take that, feminist media!”
…Um, Paulie?
He is right about one thing: he and his ilk are toxic shits who probably know a thing or two to about stinking up a place, like actual shit.
Wouldn’t this be cause for him and other MRAs to cry freeze peach? They can’t spew their horribleness for others to hear. They’re being silenced!
Haha. They don’t know what they’re doing or saying at this point. Anything to cry VICTORY. How sad and funny.
@Orion:
Here’s my response to your post.
@Bina
It’s nice to see you posting again. 🙂
The conclusion of the TRC and upcoming implementation of its recommendations, especially the inquiry into missing and murdered Aboriginal women, has racists foaming at the mouth. I have little doubt that played a role in the decisions of the CBC and Toronto Star. I don’t understand why they can’t simply ban serial offenders but I don’t know how the CBC comments section operates.
Slight detour: Like most Canadian news sites, our paper shuts down comments on pending Canadian criminal cases between the time charges are laid and a verdict is reached. I have never seen it happen on U.S. cases but with the current investigation into a sex offence by NHL player Evander Kane in the city of Buffalo, NY, they’ve closed comments. WTF? It strikes me as another case where a sports god is protected by society when accused of rape.
Paulie’s latest failure was trying to get networks to nix The Hunting Ground. The emails of angry, bitter men couldn’t convince TV stations to ban the showing of a documentary on campus rape. Who knew?
re: comments sections: This, The Mary Sue, and (perhaps surprisingly) Tor are about all I read with any frequency anymore. I don’t know the moderation policy for their comments, but they do seem to remain relatively asshats free.
IGN seems fine, too, but I only read it for games coverage and may miss stuff.
I haven’t found any news sites free from far right / MRA brigade squads.
Aside: Anyone heard about this?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/pornographic-email-scandal-ripples-through-pennsylvania-politics/2015/12/26/fc411a76-a374-11e5-b53d-972e2751f433_story.html?tid=sm_tw
…“When you see these emails . . . it’s just a swamp of misogyny, racism, homophobia and white privilege. It taints everybody, especially in the judicial branch,” said Bruce Ledewitz, associate dean of academic affairs and a law professor at Duquesne University School of Law. “Some of these things are really disgusting. You get the impression that every white male office holder in the state is a creep.”…
Well, uhhhh….maybe they *are* creeps. And the public seeing these kinds of things probably won’t prevent the political creeps from sending more of the same to each other, but those creeps might hesitate before clicking send. Good.