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anti-Semitism antifeminism antifeminist women conspiracy theory literal nazis lying liars men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW misogyny MRA straw feminists

The Protocols of the Elders of Feminism (Or, Gloria Steinem Didn’t Really Say That)

No, Gloria Steinem did not say this.
No, Gloria Steinem did not say this.

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I‘m continually amazed by the amount of time and energy that antifeminists put into fighting monsters of their own creation — that is, the imaginary feminists in their heads who bear about as much resemblance to real feminists as the rapacious, Machiavellian characters in The Protocols of The Elders of Zion do to real Jews.

I’ve made the Protocols of the Elders of Zion comparison more than a few times before, but I ran across an example of antifeminist monster-making earlier today that parallels the Protocols so exactly that it’s kind of unnerving.

The original Protocols, as many of you no doubt know, were an anti-Semitic forgery concocted in Russia by the Tsarist secret police around the turn of the twentieth century, purporting to offer proof of a plot by a cabal of Jews to take over the world. The document offered what it claimed was a transcript of a secret meeting of the aforementioned Elders that took place at some point late in the nineteenth century; in fact, most of the dialogue was plagiarized from works of fiction published many decades earlier.

Basically, the so-called Protocols are a collection of cartoonishly eeeeevil fake quotes from imaginary Jewish Elders. But millions of people, including Henry Ford and a certain Adolf Hitler, believed them to be real. Or at least acted as if they did.

Much of what Men’s Rightsers and other antifeminists believe about feminists is similarly bogus. I’ve written before about the collections of dubious “evil” quotes from feminists that regularly make the rounds on the antifeminist web (and that any number of antifeminists have cut-and-pasted into the comments here).

And I’ve written about the deliberate disinformation campaigns started by #GamerGaters and MRAs by spreading made-up quotes attributed to feminists like Jessica Valenti and Anita Sarkeesian.

So today I ran across yet another example, this time in the form of an “infographic” featuring an obviously fake quote purportedly from Gloria Steinem that was being passed around by a couple of A Voice for Men Twitter soldiers today.

I’ve pasted it above, though, as you may have noticed, I’ve taken the liberty of adding the words FAKE QUOTE in big red letters in case the picture gets into someone’s image search results sometime in the future.

So how do I know the quote is fake? Well, there’s the fact that it obviously is. But, to be sure, I used my highly sophisticated internet search skills to type part of the first sentence of the fake quote into a website called “Google.”

Looking through the results, I discovered that the “quote” originally appeared in a post with the ungrammatical title “Are Chimps smarter than Feminist?” on a little blog called The Waterpipe.

The Waterpipe is not a source that inspires much confidence. The blogger behind the site made only four posts in total, all of them attacks on feminism; the site’s “about” page contains the dummy text that WordPress expects bloggers to replace with their own bios.

The “Are Chimps smarter than Feminist?” post begins — shades of the original Protocols! —  by plagiarizing a hefty chunk of text about chimpanzee tool use from the website of the Jane Goodall Institute.

The “author” then goes on to suggest that chimps are in fact smarter than “feminist” because

The chimps have demonstrated an ability to conduct their parasitical relationship with termites in a sustainable manner as to not exhaust the termite nest and thus increase chances of survival, this survival instinct is not present in feminist. …

the feminist movement has made it its primary objective to eradicate masculinity. Ironically women in their 30s who are childless, unmarried and on a steady supply of anti-depressants are now questioning “Did we overdo it”

As evidence, of sorts, for this contention, the author presents us with the similarly ungrammatical lament of an obviously fictional character named “Clara Strongwoman,” who declares

I was willing to be a good wife, cook and clean while the man bought home the bacon, but you lousy feminist had to ruin it for all of us with your endless victim-hood, outrageous demands and out of control sense of entitlement.

While it’s pretty clear that the blogger here seriously believes the MGTOWish crap he’s peddling, it’s also pretty clear that he means “Clara Strongwoman” to be a joke.

He follows her obviously fake quote with an obviously fake dialogue amongst famous feminists, which he introduces as follows:

Top feminist from different organisations were secretly recorded by an anonymous user called Agent Orange on a debate with each other if they exhausted their parasitical relationship on men.

In other words, these famous feminists are purportedly discussing what to do now that they’ve driven men away with their endless demands.

Here’s a portion of the dialogue, purportedly between Steinem, radical feminist and anti-porn activist Gail Dines, and someone called “Bonnie Grabenhoffer” (two f’s) — who is presumably supposed to be NOW Action Vice President Bonnie Grabenhofer (one f).

As you’ll notice, the blogger doesn’t bother to try to make the discussion sound even vaguely convincing; it’s basically a very crude satire. The fake Steinem quote from the infographic is right in the middle of it all; I’ve put it in bold.

>Gail Dines: We pushed them too far and now there’s no going back, we had men right where we wanted, they worked long hours while we could play hide and seek in our pajamas with the kids, they went to die in wars, while we did easy house chores with our washing machines, dishwashers and vacuum cleaners.

>Gloria Steinem: I agree with Gail we even had chivalry, a fu**ing social etiquette that was heavily enforced which disposed men to heroic actions for the benefit of women, but now chivalry is being associated with beta behaviour.
Of course I agree with everyone in this room that emasculating and degrading men was the right thing to do, but we should have left a little bit of dignity in men so that they were still useful to us

>Bonnie Grabenhoffer: We could try shaming tactics but even the dumbest men still have an adequate survival instinct
We are trying very hard to rebuild society by removing male spaces but now we have things like Men Going Their Own Way and male rights groups popping up

>Gail Dines: Why? We cant even shame men into doing things anymore, they have little masculinity, how can a man even sink lower? I think what we need to also do is destroy the male survival instinct. Then they will start marrying women again.

Yes, that’s right: it’s a secret cabal of “top feminist” trying to figure out … how to get men to marry women again. Frankly. the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were more convincing.

Yet this ridiculous blog post got picked up by other antifeminist blogs and passed around by assorted antifeminists on Facebook. Now the fake quote is making the rounds on Twitter.

One atheist/Linux blogger reposted some of the dialogue above as if it were authentic, taking particular umbrage at the fake Steinem’s fake “stupidity.”

These so-called feminists put men down for doing just that to women for centuries. What’s their answer? If women are to be happy and productive, women need to do to men what women thought was horrible when men did it to them. I see no difference between Steinem and some chauvinist pig who thinks women should be in the kitchen cooking, barefoot and pregnant. …

I have a suggestion for the Steinems of this world: help free humanity from its primitive roots and stop spreading this bucolic bacchanalia about making slaves out of men.

Fake quote, real anger. See how that works?

People believe what they want to believe. When it comes to feminism, a lot of people are determined to believe the worst.

The more gullible anitifeminists believe the fake quotes are real; the more cynical antifeminists may be well aware the quotes are fake, but they’re happy to spread them anyway, knowing that their more gullible comrades will swallow the lies wholesale.

As the forgers of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion knew all too well, if your aim is to spread hate, lies are much more effective than truth.

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Delphi_ote
Delphi_ote
5 years ago

No need to create fake Elam quotes. The real ones are damaging enough to his reputation already.

Frank Torpedo
5 years ago

@Argenti

Hmmm, I think that would qualify you as being close enough. Most of the people who champion the “SUPERIOR ARYAN RACE” propaganda aren’t even genuinely pure-blooded North-Germanic or Nordic, anyway.

Let’s not forget that ol’ Uncle Adi wasn’t even particularly tall, muscular, or blonde, and he is the father of all these morons – including the MRAs who babble about da jooz and da wimmens and duh blaaaaghs.

Now, put on this tight-fitting black Hugo Boss uniform, wear this intimidating visored officer’s cap, place your finger to the tip of your nose, say “Pip pip” and look as supercilious as you can manage.

@Lady Mondegreen

Why, if I didn’t know better, good Lady, I would say you were trying to seduce me!

Or are you one of the Miscegenation Coordinators, attempting to feel out my suitability for the task?

Lady Mondegreen
Lady Mondegreen
5 years ago

tee hee, Sir Torpedo, no, just pointing out that denying the conspiracy is PROOF!!11! that you’re part of the conspiracy!eleventy!

comment image

Frank Torpedo
5 years ago

Can’t argue with that!

Boogerghost
Boogerghost
5 years ago

I notice one of those four posts on The Waterpipe is “Can a fart be misogynist?” and quotes Steph Guthrie as saying that “the patriarchy has been controlling women’s flatulence.”

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

@Boogerghost

Ah, one of the many feminist issues: Should women’s farts be uncontrollable?

BTW I do understand that any normal bodily function is a taboo in women, but to ridicule feminism with bog jokes is just such an expected level of completely levelheaded anti-feminist criticism.

Rabukurafuto
Rabukurafuto
5 years ago

Lady Mondegreen
December 16, 2015 at 11:13 pm

I’m old enough to remember those days, and I’ve done some research. Some of that old school “transphobia” actually was understandable in context. I blame the medical profession. At the time, trans women couldn’t get Sex Reassignment Surgery without satisfying the medical and psychiatric gatekeepers that they were truly “feminine”–which meant basically enacting the most stereotypical notions of womanhood. Trans women had an underground in which they passed around advice on how to satisfy the gatekeepers. The gatekeepers notions of true womanhood were regressive and thoroughly sexist.

A story about the trans women of that time would be fascinating.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
5 years ago

Frank Torpedo — while my entire wardrobe is black (never fully grew out of my goth phase), I don’t do tight other than for aerials. So I guess if I can do it while on trapeze maybe? Disdain I can manage though!

*dons black and looks upon the realm with disdain* why is no one inventing time travel? Pip pip!

mildlymagnificent
mildlymagnificent
5 years ago

Kat

British court clears Saudi millionaire of rape charges after he claimed he accidentally tripped and fell on teenage girl

Silly me. I searched this on da googlethingy because I thought it was just a joke come to life.

Turns out I was wrong. Again. When you read the report it gets worse, not better. That is exactly what he claimed. And … the judge took 20 minutes of his evidence in camera (in private away from public scrutiny or reporting).

I haven’t seen any reports of prosecutors contemplating an appeal. Yet.

—————————————-
As for Steinem and all of us 2nd wave people. It’s pretty hard for people nowadays to understand how bad things really were for women back then. Our Bodies, Ourselves was published for the first time in 1971. It was unbelievably radical and controversial for women to discuss things like sexual desire — for other women even! — and the eternally unmentionable domestic violence.

It was often used as a core text for many women’s consciousness raising groups. A lot of women learned lots of stuff about menstruation and contraception and pregnancy and all the other things they were supposed to either ignore or put up with or leave entirely in their husband’s control. The idea, at that time, was that we needed to understand how our own bodies worked and that. we. had. a. right. to. control. them. was a revelation, damn’d near a revolution for many.

I’m pretty sure that some of that you’re a woman, this is how a woman’s body works, you should not be ashamed, you should be proud stuff readily moved in some women’s minds into This! is what a woman is, and nobody else has any claim on the word or the status. Which could finish up as transphobia in women who never even imagined there was such a thing as a transwoman in the first place. Helped along with an almighty, hefty shove from Phyllis Schlafly and all the organisations that adopted her bigoted anti-feminist attitudes during the US fight against the ERA.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ mildlymagnificent

I haven’t seen any reports of prosecutors contemplating an appeal. Yet.

Unfortunately in England prosecutors can’t appeal against a jury verdict.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

Re: Machiavelli

Isn’t there a consensus amongst experts that he was writing a satire along the lines of ‘a modest proposal’?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

Re: MRA Doublethink

I don’t find it surprising that they promulgate a lie whilst knowing it’s a lie.

[Sorry for the following Godwin but it seems appropriate]

This sort of thinking is quite common amongst extremists. There are plenty of neo Nazis who deny the holocaust or say that Hitler wasn’t personally responsible whilst at the same time collecting Zyklon B canisters and celebrating Hitler for knowing how to ‘deal’ with the Jews.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

British court clears Saudi millionaire of rape charges after he claimed he accidentally tripped and fell on teenage girl

I’m not okay with this.

Alan, what is the way forward in ensuring that Mr Abdulaziz goes to prison and that the judge who presided over this is struck off? Please don’t tell me that there is no legal method to do so; that phrase is merely going to be interpreted, in my current mindset, as saying that it is necessary to use extralegal means, and I understand that there may be professional difficulties for you if you were to suggest that.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ Argenti

never fully grew out of my goth phase)

Just for you (and any other goths out there) 🙂

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ EJ

Realistically he’s got away with it (sorry, I mean ‘leaves court without a stain on his character’ as we’re supposed to say). Prosecutors can’t appeal a jury verdict (there is a method of prosecutors appealing a judge’s decision about evidence or interpretation of the law ‘prior’ to the jury being sent out but it doesn’t appear that they thought the judge made any errors in this regard)

It’s nigh on impossible to get rid of a judge over here. There are sound policy reopens for that, it does stop politicians leaning on them and maintains the seperation of powers (In practice, when judges do fuck up their senior colleagues ‘invite’ them to spend more time with their families).

In light of recent controversies I’m a bit reluctant to go too much more into depth on this but it may be there’s nothing to criticise the judge about, the prosecution don’t appear to have any complaints about how he ran the trial. In a case like this it’s the jury that pretty much holds sway. I know some people find the fact the defendant gave some evidence in private troubling. All I can say about that, without getting into professional trouble, is that this is a procedure that’s not necessarily adopted in the interests of the defendant but can be for the protection of a third party.

Of course I don’t need to remind anyone on this site about the difficulty in securing rape convictions. One thing that I do find mind boggling though is that, in England, “penetration” is an essential element in rape (without that it’s sexual assault”). How do you ‘accidentally’ penetrate anyone even if you did fall? Without going TMI I’m sure some people here will be aware of how tricky it can be to ‘line up’ as it were even with the enthusiastic assistance of your partner.

Merus
Merus
5 years ago

One of my favourite blogs likes to refer to the Anti-Kitten Burning Coalition: people who are up in arms about the almost certainly imaginary faction of people who think that burning kittens is just fine. Most everyone agrees that burning kittens is not cool, and it’s usually budding sociopaths that dare to disagree, but the Anti-Kitten Burning Coalition seems convinced that there are people seriously advocating kitten burning who must be opposed.

What’s going on here, according to this writer, is that people are staking their moral authority on being better than these imaginary kitten pyros. Most people don’t really have any kind of moral authority – they may profess to be good people, but they haven’t really done anything other than have good thoughts or maybe donate to charity. Kitten burners (or Satanists, or Obama the Muslim terrorist) provide someone they can be morally superior to, so long as they ignore the inconvenient fact that they don’t quite exist. So long as it sounds like it might be true, that’s good enough, because it’s fun to pretend that it is.

That’s the purpose the Protocols, and fake feminist quotes, serve: they’re handouts in the roleplaying game that is being morally superior to people who don’t exist.

Moggie
Moggie
5 years ago

Kat:

And in last night’s presidential debate, Carly Fiorina — who, BTW, was wearing a huge cross — alleged that President Obama forced out General Keane because Obama didn’t like Keane’s opinions. When her remark was fact-checked and found wrong — Keane left his position in 2003, before Obama was president — Fiorina tweeted this: “I did not misspeak.”

I’m starting to wonder whether Republicans think the arrow of time is a liberal plot.

rugbyyogi
rugbyyogi
5 years ago

Agreed. I know it’s a lost battle, because this conception of Machiavelli was basically settled by the 16th century, but no one ever seems to have heard of the Discourses, which are about the best way to run a republic, which is clearly his preferred form of government. The position that emerges is “Hey, republics are great, you should go for them, and here’s how, but if you can’t manage it, well, you’d better have a dictatorship, and here’s my other book on the best way to run one of those.”

I don’t know why he wrote The Prince but it wasn’t published while he was alive. I think he’s more than a cynical exploiter of realpolitik, I think he’s a genuine republican and I think that we may well have him to thank for the reintroduction of the Roman style republic to the West. The Discourses are essential reading for anyone who values representative democracy, perhaps especially at that coal face administrative level – local government.. But he doesn’t get the credit he deserves, because – y’know – The Prince.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

I always understood that Machiavelli wrote The Prince as a “fuck you” to the Medici family, who had overthrown the republic of his native city and instituted a dictatorship. Given the extent to which Machiavelli idolised the ancient Roman Republic and regarded the rise of the Empire as being abhorrent, it’s not surprising that he saw the parallels and was not pleased by them.

Lisa C
Lisa C
5 years ago

the site’s “about” page contains the dummy text that WordPress expects bloggers to replace with their own bios.

And this guy asks if feminists are smarter than chimps? I have a funny feeling the chimp in question can write a more thoughtful and enjoyable blog.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 years ago

Hello.

I am interested in knowing if there is a feminist review of the new star wars somewhere, or if feminist “intellectual” can review it. On the surface, it seem to present the women characters in a decent way, but I don’t put enough time in thinking about feminism to pretend to have a strong opinion on it.

magnesium
magnesium
5 years ago

They go on and on about all these 30 something women who just want a man and babies and are so desperate and lonely, etc etc… Why haven’t I met any of these women? I mean ever? Surely they must be out there, but they only ever seem to exist in lazy sitcom writing and MRA fever dreams.

I have known my fair share of single people who are happy being single. I’ve known people who were worried they would never meet someone and then a year later were engaged. The only people I have ever known to lament how depressing and lonely their 30-something singleness makes them have been men. Typically men who, god bless ’em, are still holding out for the independently wealthy, sexually inexperienced swimsuit models they’re sure are just around the corner waiting to snatch them up.

Newt
Newt
5 years ago

When her remark was fact-checked and found wrong — Keane left his position in 2003, before Obama was president — Fiorina tweeted this: “I did not misspeak.”

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRFzlFKDbYiWFtgJXqjNPxZqLg58QzTtoc7PYhE2cyfwuOK62llRA

Edit: Failure to embed. Image also applies to this comment.

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

There’s barely anything to say, since, unfortunately this doesn’t surprise me. This isn’t the first time a MRA attributed a false quote to a feminist.

I just think it’s sad how those people read baffling words from people on their side and respond with “Oh, it’s nothing!/It’s satire!/They’re just one bad apple; not all MRAs/Redpillers/MGTOWs/GamerGaters/whatever are like that!”; but as son as someone attributes a false quote to a feminist they’re more than happy to go “OMGZ!! FEMINAZIS EAT BABIES!!eleven!!”

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@Newt:
If the link doesn’t end in .gif, .jpeg or some other image extension, it generally won’t embed.

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

British court clears Saudi millionaire of rape charges after he claimed he accidentally tripped and fell on teenage girl

What the fuck?
I’m not only pissed off that a rapist escaped conviction, I’m also pissed off that he used a non-excuse as an excuse.
He didn’t only raped the girl; he raped the girl and then declared to the world that he could do it and get away with it.

hugseverycat
hugseverycat
5 years ago

The problem with expecting MRAs to use a transphobic quote to discredit Steinem is that your average 2010s MRA is at least as transphobic as your average firebrand 1970s feminist.

Wetherby
Wetherby
5 years ago

In light of recent controversies I’m a bit reluctant to go too much more into depth on this but it may be there’s nothing to criticise the judge about, the prosecution don’t appear to have any complaints about how he ran the trial. In a case like this it’s the jury that pretty much holds sway.

One thing that struck me was that the jury only took 30 minutes to reach a “not guilty” verdict – which suggests to me that they were convinced by the evidence. Or not convinced, depending on one’s viewpoint.

So I suspect there may be more to it than the headlines are suggesting, and I’d be curious to read the judgement (although it doesn’t appear to have been published online yet).

Howard Bannister
Howard Bannister
5 years ago

Re: Machiavelli, the Prince, did he “mean” it, etc, check out this.

http://www.exurbe.com/?p=1429

It’s a great series, long, involved, lots of good history, very readable, very enjoyable.

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

About Machiavelli and “machiavellian”:
I remember that about three years ago, in high school, there was a question about which author had written a book about social contract that was a satire, and I, of course, answered with “Machiavelli”. Later I found out that the correct answer was supposed to be “Hobbes”.
I’m still kind of bitter about it.

As for the word, I think there’s not much point in discussing it since its meaning is pretty well established in the popular vernacular (like “Idiot”), but it’s kind of sad that Machiavelli will go down in history as a malicious person, when he might not have been.
I wonder if there are more cases like this? The only other term I remember being coined after a person is “sadism”, and that one seems to do justice to its origin.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ Wetherby

I’d be curious to read the judgement (although it doesn’t appear to have been published online yet).

Hi, the Crown Court generally* doesn’t do judgments as all the jury says is ‘guilty’ or ‘not guilty’ and there’s no mechanism for determining how they arrived at their decision.

[* I won’t bother with the exceptions unless people need an insomnia cure]

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ Rosa

I wonder if there are more cases like this?

I can’t think of any adjectival examples, but we have words like Boycott, Gerrymander, Quisling etc.

Oh, does ‘Socratic’ count?

Chiomara
Chiomara
5 years ago

I saw a tiny discussion on page 1 about transphobia.

At the time, trans women couldn’t get Sex Reassignment Surgery without satisfying the medical and psychiatric gatekeepers that they were truly “feminine”–which meant basically enacting the most stereotypical notions of womanhood. Trans women had an underground in which they passed around advice on how to satisfy the gatekeepers. The gatekeepers notions of true womanhood were regressive and thoroughly sexist.

But all the cis feminists saw was trans people performing the very “femininity” the feminists were fighting as limiting and demeaning.

That’s truly interesting. Isn’t this how it goes in the US anymore? In Brazil this still exists, and trans people still talk about how to pass such tests. To be accepted as trans woman you’re advised to say you have always loved dolls, that you love cooking, and pink dresses, and you like men (even if you are lesbian), etc. It’s awful.
And Brazilian transphobic feminists use this same argument, that trans women bring us several steps back in gender equality because of their exaggerated femininity and their concept of gender.
Of course they often exaggerate. Damn, if people put my gender identity in doubt I would dress in all pink and make a flowery tattoo with “girly girrrll” written in it. Just to make sure everyone understands that I’m bold about it.
The fact that things work here as they worked there 45 years ago only makes me more sure that we are literally decades behind in feminist issues.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@Rosa:

“Annoying” comes from the name of Leopold D’Annoi, one of the monks charged with compiling the Domesday Book. It turns out that if you probe too heavily into people’s financial status in order to prevent them from evading tax, they turn your name into a byword for irritation.

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

RE: Machiavelli

I learn so much here.

Luzbelitx
5 years ago

@Chiomara

Argentina’s law on gender identity requires nothing but the person’s request in order to change genders in their ID.

Also, medical insurances and public health must cover the costs of any treatment, from hormones to surgery.

This doesn’t hold back the transphobic people, feminist or otherwise, but we definitely hope such a law can help improve this type of laws in different countries.

maistrechat
5 years ago

re: the transphobia discussion

In the Silence of the lambs novel this actually shows up as villain had previously attempted to have reassignment surgery and was rejected because they were asked to draw a picture of a family and didn’t spend their entire time on the mother’s dress and jewelry.

Seriously.

Re: Machiavelli

I have a former coworker who was a PhD candidate doing their dissertation on the time period in Italy, they argued that it was not so much a satire or an embrace of realpolitik and more an expression of frustration at the political situation of the time and a plea for people to just do something.

I can’t think of “what makes the best leader” from The Prince without contrasting it with the Laozi, which argues that the true best leader is the one that goes unnoticed. The hierarchy there is:

Unnoticed
Loved
Feared
Hated

(See Laozi, 17)

Chiomara
Chiomara
5 years ago

That’s awesome, Luz.

If there’s a cause that breaks my heart it’s the one of Brazilian transgenders.
Someone up there said it would be awesome to see a story about transgenders of the 70’s… If someone here does documentaries, it would be awesome to do one with Brazilian trans. It’s a real massive problem here and they could use the visibility.
Someone has to make the government ashamed of what’s happening. It’s heartbreaking.

NickNameNick
NickNameNick
5 years ago

It’s always weird when, in a discussion, someone throws a random quote out there – even when it’s from some utterly anonymous person – expects accolades for using it at all…from the person they’re debating. They seem to go something like this:

“[Insert Quote Here] – [Insert Person I Don’t Know]”
“Um, okay, that’s silly I guess. How does that prove your point?”
“But it’s a ridiculous thing to say, right?!”
“Yeah, but it’s just one person’s opinion…”
“[Insert Quote Here] – [Insert Person I Don’t Know] (x2 or 3 or 4 or whatever)”
“Do you spend all day just searching for quotes to use in debates? If so, why do you keep using people I’ve never heard of? Do you not think that, just maybe, you’re being a bit obsessive and using highly selective reasoning?”
“GODAMMIT ADMIT I’M RIGHT AND YOU’RE WRONG!!!”
“No…”
“ARGLEBARGLEWAGLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

Falconer
Falconer
5 years ago

@Ohlmann:

Hello.

I am interested in knowing if there is a feminist review of the new star wars somewhere, or if feminist “intellectual” can review it. On the surface, it seem to present the women characters in a decent way, but I don’t put enough time in thinking about feminism to pretend to have a strong opinion on it.

I don’t think there’s been enough time for that sort of thinking, it was just released to the general public today. Anyone who’s going to write that sort of column would have had to have been at the world premiere on Monday in order to have written that by now.

Also, if I may suggest, avoid scare quotes around “feminist ‘intellectual'” because it makes you look dismissive of feminism.

Chiomara
Chiomara
5 years ago

I have been waiting for a thread on personal stuff to talk about this, but as this isn’t happening, let me just tell you off topic things about my life:
Some of you may remember my boyfriend, who is German and who was being awful about Muslims and feminism. I am in his house in Germany! Him and his family gave me tickets as Christmas present. It’s the first time I leave my country, and it’s a whole new world! Coming here also made me understand him better. Turns out he has his reasons… As for Muslims, I met his family more in depth and noticed they are all casually racist and against refugees. He also has worked in refugee camps in and outside Europe and, according to himself, he saw enough ugly stuff not to think of refugees as little angels. Eh, go figure. Nevertheless I think I softened his heart a bit. And about feminism, he no longer sees the need of it because, well, we live in complete different dimensions. He most sincerely has no idea what women go through in my country. Everything is just so different here, for everyone. I think now I see why it’s so difficult for him to understand. He just needs a lot of patience because he is absolutely drowned in privilege. Even their toilet paper is fancy. You all living in the first world, never underestimate how lucky you are.

Chiomara
Chiomara
5 years ago

Oh, another funny thing is I am considered reeeeeaaaaaaalllllyyy white in my country. But here, even though I’m really pale, I’m being considered brown. It may be about skin undertones, theirs is pink and mine is brown, and this is a very very subtle difference, at least in my opinion. But his neighborhood is mostly composed of really truly white, blonde people, and they look at my face and just know I am foreign. Old ladies stare at me in the trains, it’s quite funny how everyone in my country consider me European looking and everyone here sees I’m foreign.

Luzbelitx
5 years ago

@Chiomara

Sadly, violence against LGBT (especially T) people is still rampant here. There is a lot of hate all over Latin America, actually, and I know the case of Brazil is particularly violent.

I wish the international LGBT community would speak up about it, but sadly the world hierarchies are strong even among us, and Northern countries (the case against laws in Russia comes to my mind) get way more attention than anyone South of the Equator :/

Also, best of wishes with your German boyfriend!

Privilege is hard to deal with for me because there’s a high risk of me getting hurt in the process of being patient, understanding and explaining all that stuff.

It happened with my last LTR, and even though I’m still sad about the break up, I’m relieved I don’t need to deal with horrible discussions which left him angry and contemptuous , and left me tired, sad and often humiliated 🙁

Then again, I’m glad it’s over and I have a strengthened privilege filter for potential long-term partners.

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

@Alan and EJ(TOO)
Thanks. Quisling and Gerrymander seem fair (although the former probably isn’t fun for anyone who inherited the name); Boycott makes sense; but the origin of “annoying” is kind of sad. I google Leopold D’annoi but nothing relevant showed up.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 years ago

“He also has worked in refugee camps in and outside Europe and, according to himself, he saw enough ugly stuff not to think of refugees as little angels.”

I do agree with him : they aren’t angel. Nobody really is, and especially not someone from a war-torn country that have just endured a lot of trials and may very well have lost everything in the last few year. Plus, a number of them might be actual thief or forced to thievery by mafias.

The tricky part is to remember people that someone don’t need to be an angel to be worth helping, as well as not do too sweeping a generalization, and yet remember that, like most strangers, you have to have your guard up a small bit.

(strangers as “not acquaintance”, just in case I badly exprim myself again)

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

@Luzbelitx
I think I’m probably a good example of someone who knows more about
what happens in other countries than my own…
But from the little I know of the subject of transgender people in Brazil, I know that trying to bring up a discussion often results in derailing. Actually, trying to bring up a discussion about anything that is unpleasant to some Brazilian people often results in derailing. I know it happens everywhere, but here it seems even worse. I’ve just looked up an article, and in the comment section there were people trying to change the subject to talk about people dying thanks to our poor public health – which is something that obviously suck, but if they want to discuss that why don’t they go read an article about it?!

@Chiomara
Is sex reassignment surgery and hormones something that our health system covers, or even that health plans cover?

Scildfreja
Scildfreja
5 years ago

re: The no-good, awful, horrible, unbelievable rape case

If anyone wants a quick five-minute video talking about it, here’s The Young Turks giving an overview. Good info, and TYT is very progressive. They have an issue with calling bad people “crazy” quite a bit (thank you, everyone, for opening my eyes to that!) but they’re very watchable, and very passionate about improving things down in the US.

((I don’t know how to embed videos :c ))

@Ohlmann re: Star Wars Feminism

Talking about the original three movies; you have Princess Leia, a capable woman who is captured numerous times, used as a plot device requiring saving, used as eye-candy, and whose major plot point is romantic entanglement between the noble jedi knight in training and the handsome rogue trader. I love her, but she’s sort of a mixed bag when it comes to being a feminist role model.

And all of the other female characters in the movie? There’s one woman in a position to demonstrate competence, Mon Mothma, and you barely see her. Every single other female character is a stripper or dancer. Every single one.

I try to avoid thinking about the later prequels too much, but I can’t recall anyone other than Padme. Her central features are being in love with Anakin Skywalker, being chained to a post as giant bug monsters try to eat her, and fighting to save the Republic. Another mixed bag.

I’m sure there are better feminist reviews of Star Wars out there, but that is my appraisal!

Luzbelitx
5 years ago

@Scildfreja

Re: Padme

Don’t forget the “dying of sadness after giving birth”.

Falconer
Falconer
5 years ago

@Scildfreja: I agree that Leia is a mixed bag, but she killed the fat slug who valued her only for her appearance, and she also gets to ride to Han’s rescue when he gets carted away.

The ion control coordinator at Echo Base is a woman, but she only gets one line. I’m sure she has a name, probably given to her by the collectible card game.

At least three women were cast as starfighter pilots in Return of the Jedi, but only one of them made it on-screen, and she was dubbed over with a man’s voice, and the way the movie is cut makes it pretty clear she is killed after her only line.

Padme is not the only woman in the prequels, but she’s the only one who does anything like Obi-Wan and Anakin get to do outside of Episode I (she and her bodyguards storm the castle at Theed). There’s a few women among the Jedi but the role of the Jedi is apparently to fight and die.

The Clone Wars, both the Tartakovsky shorts and the fully developed series, have lots more women who do lots more things, and Rebels is pretty good, too. The Clone Wars series is especially notable because Asohka is the only woman who’s a main character who gets to undergo Jedi training and wield a lightsaber. I haven’t made an exhaustive count but I think the gender ratio among supporting Jedi characters is nearly parity.

(Also Jar Jar gets to solve a problem that he didn’t cause, for once!)

I am going to see The Force Awakens this Saturday, and fortunately I have avoided spoilers, but I’ve seen a few non-spoilery reactions that have gone REY FUCK YEAH.

Falconer
Falconer
5 years ago

Quisling and Gerrymander seem fair (although the former probably isn’t fun for anyone who inherited the name)

To be fair, “Gerrymander” isn’t a name, it’s a portmanteau of Gerry and salamander. Somebody was redistricting, trying to keep his seat or something, and the new district was all long and thin and twisty.

That was in the early 19th Century. I’m sure the details are on Wikipedia but I lack the arse to look it up.