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Today’s amazing thing on the Internet: MRA Dilbert, a new Tumblr blog that mixes the art of Scott Adams’ Dilbert comic strips with Adams’ ludicrous, insufferable, and actually completely serious opinions on such subjects as women, women, and women.
It’s pretty awesome. I’m just jealous that I did’t think of it first.
Walter, you’re very very wrong when you say that white people aren’t concerned about non-white groups. White racists, especially MRA white racists, are OVERLY concerned about non-whites in a bad way. Some actively work to make things worse for non-whites, and some just complain on the Internet a lot, but many have somehow convinced themselves that whites are getting shafted more than any other group. White non-racists exist across a broad spectrum from actively working to specifically improve US society to be fair and equitable for non-whites all the way down to just living their daily lives treating all people fairly. If you said 90% of ALL people are mostly concerned about their own daily lives and their own personal problems instead of with other people’s problems, that’s probably closer to the truth. To make blanket statements about what 90% of whites think is just stupid.
@TeeRee
All I was trying to say was that white people are often unaware of the problems that people of color face and that they often bring a white perspective to the conversation and frame if as a perspective for everyone. I apparently used a poor example of that, which was my mistake. I wasn’t trying to school you on anything; the numbers I see thrown around are often point back to the numbers specifically between white men and white women. That’s all.
@Walter
STFU.
@Kupo, I’m just trying to say that there is no single “white perspective” just as there’s no single “black perspective” or “Asian perspective” or whatever. Likewise there’s no single “female perspective” or “American perspective”. Lots of people are uninterested in anything beyond their own specific experience, I don’t think that’s a uniquely white issue.
@TeeRee
Where did I say there was? I’m really confused about what you’re upset with me for. I didn’t say all white people are unaware of racial issues. I simply said that the majority of white people ignore others’ perspectives when they talk abut issues. I include myself in that, even though I put an effort into understand what people of color go through because I know that I am ignorant of some of the issues they face. The slutwalk mentioned above is a great example of that–I never knew about the issues around it, especially for POC, until I read this thread.
Also, and I hope I’m not going to upset you further here, but I don’t believe it’s fair to say that’s true of everyone, even if it’s generally true that people tend to mostly care about themselves. The vast majority of our media is designed with a white and/or male audience in mind, so non-white people are surrounded by white people’s perspectives while white people rarely see the perspectives of any people of color.
TeeRee
I’m confused as to what we’re arguing. I agree with most of what you wrote and don’t think it really goes against what I wrote.
@Kupo, Definitely a fair point that the US media and entertainment industries are white-male-centric and non-whites have far more exposure to that than the other way around. For every “Blackish” or “Girlfriends” or “Cristela” or “Empire” there are a hundred “Last Man Standing” or “Friends”, and surely there are some whites who will think that “Empire” is representative of “black culture” even though they know “Friends” is just silly Hollywood formula. So I would agree with you that in the US, a larger percentage of non-whites are aware of issues facing whites and a smaller percentage of whites are aware that POC face different and unique issues than whites. But these days it would take special effort for non-racist whites NOT to see at least the larger issues facing POC even if they have little experience of those things in their daily lives.
@TeeRee
Agreed.
Walter: I’m aware of Sotomayor. I first heard of him when another poster I knew criticized his views. In fact that’s been most of my exposure to him. I haven’t actually watched his videos but in the black online community there’s a significant amount of criticism of him and black men who think like him.
In our community it seems to manifest as a kind of extreme form of respectability politics. That some black women have stopped being worthy of respect because of the way they dress and behave. That they’re not modest enough. That sounds a bit like slut shaming but there’s a subtle difference in that the emphasis is more on how they can’t respect certain types of women and how black women are somehow uniquely theirs, and their behavior needs to be controlled.
It’s hard to state the exact difference because it’s much more subtle than simply calling women names because they can’t get sex from them. Although there is a certain contingent of black men who make a lot of MRA type statements about gold digging and child support.
Funnily enough, in our community, these men are considered fairly shiftless by most of us and looked down upon because their philosophies and solutions do not take into account how racism affects black women. (For the record, a lot of their solutions seem to consist of “put on some more clothes, stop getting hair weaves, behave yourself and stop disrespecting black men by not needing them”.)
So yeah, there’s a lot of sexism and misogyny but it’s mostly individualistic and unorganized. There aren’t a whole lot of MoC joining Elam’s group because of its racism, and it’s open misogyny against black women, by black men is definitely frowned on.
@Lkeke35
It seems like many black women have a lot of disparaging things to say about “their men” as well.
That’s a whole other topic, that’s completely separate from this one. I’m not stepping in that fight.
Semi off topic — David, can we get an IP check on Walter? I know we’ve been speculating he’s a return visitor, but I don’t think anyone has actually asked you to check, so could you please?
@History Nerd
The second wave of feminism (the one after the wave of feminism that won women the right to vote) began in the late 1960s, but wasn’t much discussed in the national media. It became much more well known after Ms. magazine was launched in late 1971.
Feminists never called themselves “women’s libbers.” That was the (oh, so witty) opposition.
Lkeke35
That’s what I was getting at. The “control our women” comment seems to come from this idea that women are property and need to be controlled, which is very much in-line with MRA thinking, but like you wrote it’s mixed in with respectability politics and other black-specific issues as well.
Something I would like to add is that people who tend to think this way also Believe that black women should sacrifice so that black men can become successful and raise up black women with them. It’s an odd idea, but one I’ve heard since I was a kid.
Where I disagre with you is the idea that it’s individualstic. I’ve heard the “control our women” statement too often to think that people are coming up with that on their own. There is a definite set of ideas that get spread around, they’re just disorganized.
Thought this was an excellent takedown of the issues surrounding Holtzclaw and his victims, and why intersectional feminism is so important. This tags well with some of the things I was saying earlier about the narratives surrounding the rape of black women.
http://www.theshoopsroost.com/2015/12/15/the-holtzclaw-trial-its-intersectional-feminism-or-bust/
Warning: This is a post discussing rape and violence against women.
@Ikeke – I’ll throw in another “thanks for the education”.
This stuff falls into the “religion and politics” hole – things that most people don’t usually discuss IRL (outside of a classroom) because they’re afraid of looking ignorant or alienating whoever they’re talking with.
Nothing to contribute on my end, just “thanks”.
Hey, I have a couple of questions for you, Lkeke (and they’re meant totally honestly, not as “gotchas” – I always feel the need to clarify if there might be some ambiguity online):
If a white feminist asks about these issues, is it intrusive or welcome (fully realizing that the answer might be “both” or “it depends”)?
Can white people do anything but listen and be supportive?
It seems like the answer for in-group stuff would be “no”, though the answer for out-group stuff would be more situational.
Sometimes it seems like there’s a very fine line (or a shifting, amorphous line) between being an ally who’s effectively leveraging recognized privilege (like, say, David does as a feminist male blogger chronicling the mansophere) and being a know-nothing wanna-be savior crashing though the scene and being an asshole.
Mockingbird: I’m sorry but I got nothing on that. I can only tell you how I feel about ally-ship, which is an entirely individual response, and not reflective of how any other black women feel about it. I know that I appreciate people just being knowledgeable and aware, which means my bar is set pretty low. Other black women feel there’s nothing allies can do but be supportive and some think they should speak up more. I feel what someone decides to do with their awareness is entirely on them.
If you’re looking for advice on what you can do all I can say is, learn as much as you possibly can before approaching the topic, and then do what your heart moves you to do. If someone you’re trying to support says stop, then stop.
Speaking of this topic, I found this to be hilarious:
https://youtu.be/N-p8dOqf3P4
And please check out all the other MTV Decoded videos. They’re all pretty good and manage to explain racial stuff without being insulting or offensive.
Thanks for your advice.
I realize that I put you on the spot (“WHAT SHOULD I DOOOOO?”), and that’s pretty unfair.
Will check on the link in a bit, current situation’s not conducive to playing video 😀
@Bryce
No, they do not. This is not a thing.
How did you come to this conclusion?
Speaking as a 25-year-old cisgender, bisexual black man, black women are usually the first to protect and defend us, and to speak out about the injustices we face.
It sounds more like you have been led astray by the hilarious – and I use the term hilarious with the heaviest of sarcasm – stereotypical character of the ‘strong black woman who don’t need no man’, who also is not a thing, and does not exist.
There are some black women who are angry at black men, but I feel they have a reason to do so because a number of black men behave like self-destructive morons. These black women are not being irrational or aggressive or angry, because there are black men who engage in extraordinarily stupid behavior.
I have personally experienced being treated like shit by other black men, and I assume that if it happens to me, it very likely happens to other black women, who then, perhaps, complain in a public setting about these black men.
Yes, there are black men who do bad things. No, this does not mean anything, and is no reflection on my race. For example, you will hear white women complaining about white men who treated them badly, but nobody assumes that they are passing unilateral judgment on all white men, everywhere.
One should treat the complaints black women have about CERTAIN black men similarly. They’re speaking about the time(s) they have encountered a shitty black male. It happens. We’re human beings and are prone to embarking on shitty life decisions, or falling prey to negative external feedback like everyone else. It does not mean that ‘black women hate black men’.
One more thing, Bryce, and you may want to bend your ear, or rather, your eyeballs, towards my point, because these points I am about to explain are actually Things.
Not only are there tons of black female/black male cis-het couples who live happily together, in idyllic lives with children, a house, and so on, must I remind you of the majority that usually appears in the protests and demonstrations following the inhumane slaying of a black male by law enforcement?
It sure as hell isn’t white or Asian women, I’ll clue you in on that much. And – regrettably – it usually isn’t black men.
No, the crowd usually contains a large percentage of black women. Wives, mothers, daughters, and sisters of black men, who, rightfully, believe that their men are in danger. All the other groups pale in comparison to them.
I love watching a good takedown of Bryce.
@Frank, I don’t live in the US and got that idea from some bitter statements of African American men online, that particular stereotype, the often-cited “70% born to single mothers” statistic along with shows where black men were being coldly dismissed as undateable by women in some sort of group discussion situation (most recently on the Nightly show with Larry Wilmore). Your life experience obviously trumps anything I have to say on this.
Yes!
Thank you very much, Frank.?
I didn’t have anything to say about that topic because I don’t know Bryce. I also don’t know many women like that either, but Ive seen domestic violence (and shitty behavior) towards my close friends and my little sisters. I love the black men I know, though. I’m not special. I just got lucky. That’s all to it.
I have cousins, little brothers, and nephews and the men in my life have always been honorable to me, so I don’t actually have any beef with them. But I have met black women who have been hurt and usually when they talk like that, what they’re talking about is feelings of betrayal (from the men we’ve always thrown our support behind and expected to love and protect us), and it’s never all black men, (usually they’re just talking about their dating pool, which is the kind of complaints you hear from women everywhere.)
I think sometimes what you’re talking about too is that crabs in a barrel mentality as well. There are certain black men who see black women doing well (not doing well is really not an option, since so many black men get taken out of the life game too damn early) and feeling emasculated, they wish to tear her down, make unreasonable demands or take advantage. I guess, in that sense, some of these “bitter” black men are just like MRAs, yeah.
I also think because the attitudes of a Tommy Sotomayor are well recognized for what they are by other black people, that there is no MRA level of organization among them. (Unless you count Hoteps, which is whole other kettle of fish and not to be talked about in this space.)
I don’t want to hash out black pathologies here, but I thank you for what you said.
Bryce, the problem is that you’re listening to a very small minority of stupid black men and stupid black women. Moreover, I don’t see why you’ve assumed that they speak for all black people everywhere.
Don’t do that. Or do, if you want to, but bear in mind that they are probably wrong. About a lot of things.
And those black women on those shows? They probably would have said black men were made of a mixture of cheese and cucumbers, if they were paid enough.
I’m pretty sure that those black women and men you mentioned probably were not degree-wielding Professors of African-American culture, and, thus, armed with the statistics and information necessary to formulate a decisive, academic, peer-reviewed public opinion about black men.
I hardly think – and I’m not dismissing these black women out of hand, far from it – that you should consider them a Final Authority on the subject. I mean, I seriously doubt they even assembled a control group or a laboratory to test their theories out.
Basically, it sounds like you’ve heard and seen a few bitter black people, and decided to apply that to the world of black people at large.
@Lkeke35
You’re welcome. I’m sorry, but I couldn’t let that bullshit slide by me. Bryce was saying something that just flat out does not make sense at all, and I felt it necessary to point out that he is talking about a thing that isn’t even a thing.
You know how people talk about ‘straw feminists’ who hate men and have all kinds of fake arguments about men? Similarly, Bryce is propping up some ‘straw black women’ who hate black men, and vice-versa.
He isn’t even being original, because the trope of the Man-Hating Black Woman and the Woman-hating Black Man is so deeply ingrained in the consciousness of the world that there are actually black men and women who act out these stereotypes, a la Tommy Sotomayor.
I come down extra hard on black men and women who profess to believe in these tropes, as well. It really irks me that there are black people – who should be more knowledgeable and too well-informed to fall prey to this rampant bullshit – who think that black men hate black women, or vice-versa.
Yow!
Now that you’ve mentioned the H-word, it’s too late, comrade! The Portal to Hotepdom has opened! The Ankhs Cometh!
Because people are going to google the term, and then they’re going to find out about Hoteps, and we’re inevitably going to have to talk about them! Nooooooo!
…I may have, accidentally, mentioned Hoteps here:
https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/12/11/mgtow-wonders-why-do-women-see-us-as-breeding-stock-for-making-babies-based-on-racial-traits/comment-page-2/#comment-586394
But I was mainly talking about Homophobia and Transphobia in the black community, which is, in my opinion, as much of A Problem as Misogynoir. It is also like Misogynoir, as it deals with a distinct intersection of race and homophobia/transphobia.