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Just FYI: The Church of Satan is totally into that whole sex robot thing

Let's just pretend this is a picture of Anton LaVey with a sex robot
Let’s just pretend this is a picture of Anton LaVey with a sex robot

So last night I was skimming through the official Church of Satan Info Pack, like you do, and I made an interesting discovery. Alongside such standard Satany things as, you know, eugenics, vengeance, naked-lady altars, it turns out that the official Church of Satan position on sex robots is: Yes, please!

In fact, they’re so into it that it’s point number four in their “five point plan to move society in directions that are considered to be beneficial to Satanists.”

Here’s their pitch:

Satanists advocate a new industry, the development and promotion of artificial human companions. These humanoids will be constructed to be as realistic as possible, and available to anyone who can afford one.

So poor people will have to make do with blow-up dolls, I guess.

Recognizing that the human animal often raises himself up through the denegration of another, this would provide a safe outlet for such behavior. Have the lover of your dreams, regardless of your own prowess; every man a king who can purchase his own subject; or contrarywise, buy the master you wish to serve.

That got a little bit dark, huh? Then again, this is the Church of, you know, SATAN.

Freedom of choice to satisfy your most secret desires with no-one to be bothered is now at hand. What could be better for blowing-off the tension that exists throughout our society, and promoting healthier interaction among true humans?

I can’t say I’m 100% with the Church of Satan on every issue, or even 1%, but I’m going to support them on this: Sex robots for Satanists — or anyone else who feels the need to “raise … himself up through the denegration of another.” Because it’s better to be horrible to inanimate objects than to human beings.

 

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guy
guy
5 years ago

Speaking as a computer science guy, I do not think that sentience is necessary or desirable in a sexbot. It’s not something that is really plausibly going to happen by accident, it would be difficult to do on purpose, and all that’s necessary is for it to act attractive in very specific circumstances. Also, obviously creating a sentient being and forcing it into prostitution against its will is wildly unethical. If we did need to create a sentient one for whatever reason, all ethical and practical concerns specifically demand creating a sentience that actually wants to do what we want it to do.

Redsilkphoenix
Redsilkphoenix
5 years ago

I’d rather see that photo at the top as Ming the Merciless and flunky instead. He has better fashion sense, at least. XD

Off-topic swerve time. I offer up as brain bleach for the latest mass shooting news the Star Wars Christmas Special – 2015 version:

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/stormtroopers-assembling-christmas-tree-heart-202126918.html

Enjoy. 😀

Michael Lindsay
5 years ago

Anton LaVey plagiarized Ayn Rand and some guy called Ragnar Redbeard in equal parts. Both had a “I’ve got mine, screw you” philosophy and so did Anton. I appreciate the Satanists efforts to annoy Christian dominionist who want to mark their territory by spraying the ten commandments on everything but they’re still right wing libertarians. Libertarians who have better dress sense than the rest for sure, but libertarians all the same.

ljy2008
5 years ago

So….at what point to they stop and think about just how pathetic they really are?

As an aside, I did have to laugh at his injection of ‘contrariwise’ into the sentence. Somehow it just doesn’t seem to fit with the subject matter…you know?

sbel
sbel
5 years ago

Seems like a reasonable stance on sexbots. As long as they’re not sentient, there’s no good reason not to make them widely available imo.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

I’m just gonna leave this here.

“What your men do to us, they want to do to you.” Is still a line that sends chills down my spine.

And that San Bernardino shooting has been on the news all day here. I live a few hours north of them, and it’s terrifying to hear. When I woke up this morning, it was on every news channel.

Joi (@Joi_the_Artist)
5 years ago

There’s a sci-fi series that has this premise: a church realizes that humanity is awful, and should have robotic companions to take their awful desires out on. It…does not go well. (First book in the series is vN, author is Madeleine Ashby, highly recommended.)

So, yeah, little creepy…

Kim Plofker
Kim Plofker
5 years ago

@Bernardo Soares: “If you get off on denigrating someone else, this won’t really work if it’s an ‘inanimate object’ that can’t feel pain or denigration or humiliation – because by definition then you can’t denigrate it. If a robot can feel pain, humiliation and so on, it should have basic rights.”

But I think these folks are talking about working off their sadism on inanimate objects that can convincingly SIMULATE feeling pain or denigration or humiliation. Just like you can get a rush from shooting a baddie in a video game, even if it’s nothing more than pixels on a screen, because the experience somewhat simulates the actual killing of an enemy.

I have no objection on principle to misogynists essentially playing complicated denigration/humiliation AI videogames on an expensive woman-shaped electronic console that isn’t actually feeling or thinking anything.

Chiomara
Chiomara
5 years ago

I am with them. If those guys can’t differ relationships from owning a fake person, can’t differ human consensual sex from sticking dick inside an inanimate object, and feel proud that his gf is pretty even if he didn’t seduce her, then, sure! Leave the dating scene, please, I beg.

Chiomara
Chiomara
5 years ago

Now I read the problems I see what problems this may lead to… Oh, damn. I just wish those pieces of trash would stop looking for victims.

Virtually Out of Touch
Virtually Out of Touch
5 years ago

“the human animal often raises himself up through the denegration of another….Freedom of choice to satisfy your most secret desires with no-one to be bothered is now at hand. What could be better for blowing-off the tension that exists throughout our society, and promoting healthier interaction among true humans?”

What about getting rid of the desire to denigrate in the first place and burning that tension at its root?

TheRoseHipster
TheRoseHipster
5 years ago

Ugh, misogynists and sexbots.

TWI involved!: I’m actually someone who is kinda interested in robots in an adult-context kinda way. Though in my case, it’s not the dominating someting that can’t say no/weird revenge fantasies and more that I dunno, I overidentify with robots and watched too much Star Trek TNG as a kid and think they’re neat-looking and would be up for smooching one if it was able to decide it wanted to smooch me? And the sexbot dudes scare the shit out of me. Especially as an abuse and rape survivor and seeing what they talk about when they think it’s just people who are like them.

This interesting development in robot intelligence and ethics came up all over my friends’ FB feeds the other day, and made me honestly super happy: http://www.neatorama.com/2015/11/27/Robots-Learn-to-Disobey-Humans/

Having read most of the CoS’s books (I like reading religious texts, especially weird ones), it was pretty obvious that they are just libertarianism/objectivism with a light sprinkling of bad occult scholarship and a lot of ripping off H.P. Lovecraft (including the racism). The Temple of Satan at least seems to be doing useful and not douchey things, though.

spacelawn
5 years ago

Reminds me of the time i misread the title for the movie “The killing of Satan” as “The killing of Santa”

That was fun

theladyzombie
5 years ago

Anton LaVey was a fan of Ayn Rand so…

Ditto what someone mentioned about the Satanic Temple people. They don’t seem very assholish at all. Luciferians aren’t too bad either.

The Church of Satan borrowed heavily from Alasteir Crowley who was an awful human being. Crowley originally said “Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law.” Which is basically libertarianism. Other types of Satanists follow the more ethical rede which prefaces it with the stipulation of “An it harm none.”

But yeah, LaVay was an asshole and a conman.

guy
guy
5 years ago

@RoseHipster

Note that it was a robot deliberately programmed to disobey unsafe orders. Very useful thing to have in a robot that might be working in a steel mill or something. There is no reason to make a robot that will disobey orders we want it to follow. Then you’re happy, the robot is happy, the people who paid you to make a robot are happy, and anyways you have to pick what the robot wants in the design phase or you have an extremely expensive paperweight.

Virtually Out of Touch
Virtually Out of Touch
5 years ago

“Anton LaVey plagiarized Ayn Rand and some guy called Ragnar Redbeard in equal parts. Both had a “I’ve got mine, screw you” philosophy and so did Anton.”

I’ve watched some Rand interviews and read some of her material. One thing that strikes me is she comes off as very unhappy. Never smiles. Just sounds and looks miserable. Someone like her may have benefited by having children. Kids usually mellow people out and warm them up. Of course maybe she would have just been a horrible, “rationally self-interested” mom. Maybe even an abuser. That she’s considered a heroin in the Manosphere baffles me. She “cucked” her husband and convinced him the affair was in his “rational self-interest” (LOL!) yet I’ve seen Manospherians white knight for her. Even call her “alpha female”.

Phil Donahue introduced her on his show as one of the warmest people he’d ever met. Warm is not a word I associate with Ayn Rand. Maybe her PR team made him say that?

JoeB
JoeB
5 years ago

Libertarianism + Magic* is a fair description of some Satanist organizations. People trolling Right-Wing Christians is the other main thread.

*That phrasing is stolen but I can’t remember from who right now.

katz
katz
5 years ago

Someone like her may have benefited by having children. Kids usually mellow people out and warm them up.

NOPE.

theladyzombie
5 years ago

David, if you’re interested, look up Zeena Schrek née Levey, Anton’s daughter. She wrote a lot about the gross stuff her father did when she broke with the CoS (and her dad).

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
5 years ago

Oh look, Virtually’s saying really questionable stuff. Same old same old I see. I’m gonna go pet a cat, cuz I just can’t with this (also, basement cat needs love too!)

SpleenyBaggage
SpleenyBaggage
5 years ago

@VirtuallyOutOfTouch:

Someone like her may have benefited by having children. Kids usually mellow people out and warm them up.

Childless me is trying not to see this as an insult. Childless me is failing to do so.

SpleenyBaggage
SpleenyBaggage
5 years ago

Bah. Blockquote monster got me.

Virtually Out of Touch
Virtually Out of Touch
5 years ago

“David, if you’re interested, look up Zeena Schrek née Levey, Anton’s daughter.”

Wiki: “On May 23, 1967, three-year-old Zeena had the first and most highly publicized Satanic baptism in history performed by her father. The ceremony garnered world-wide publicity with a reenactment of the ceremony recorded for The Satanic Mass LP. When she was 13 years old she was pregnant and credited learning meditation for getting her through her C-section delivery.”

Oy Levey!

TheRoseHipster
TheRoseHipster
5 years ago

Zeena herself is a piece of work, she’s an open neo-Nazi. Which does not in any way cast doubt on the claims she made regarding her father, more that the apple didn’t fall that far.

theladyzombie
5 years ago

@Rose

No doubt. She and her hubby (was-not sure if they’re divorced) founded “The Order of the Werewolf” (I think that’s what it was called) which was mega neo-Nazi.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Virtually Out of Touch | December 2, 2015 at 7:38 pm
Someone like her may have benefited by having children. Kids usually mellow people out and warm them up. Of course maybe she would have just been a horrible, “rationally self-interested” mom. Maybe even an abuser.

…I had to think long and hard about what I’m about to say before I typed it, because holy shit this is really, really gross of you to say.

One, I don’t think it’s really scientifically accurate to say. I’ve known and known of plenty of people who had kids who didn’t “mellow out and warm up”, and my biological father was one of them. In fact, he was so fucking cold he modern-day Henry the Eighth’d my mother (Less killing, more denying of responsibilities. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least if he turned out to be a manospherian of some breed).

Two, some of us don’t want to have kids, myself included, and holy shit this smacks of some gross “WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE BABIES?!” nudging that one aunt in particular likes to do (though I’m glad she only does it once in a great while, and I can understand why she does it. It doesn’t make it any less cringe-worthy to hear, but it does help me not get upset about it). Some of us manage to not be assholes without kids just fine, thanks.

Three, while it smacks of that, it also smacks of “Babies are what all women should want!” rhetoric as well.

Stop. Step away from the computer. Take a time out.

Virtually Out of Touch
Virtually Out of Touch
5 years ago

Exploring Satanism and the Far Right Connection:

http://www.detoxorcist.com/satanism-and-the-far-right.html

There’s one Manosphere vlogger who looks Anton-y. Forget his name but he wears black, is bald and has a goatee and smokes a cigar while giving his youtube monologues.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Zeena herself is a piece of work, she’s an open neo-Nazi.

So, one might call her Zeena-phobe?

Sorry. I’ll see myself out.

But not before nthing everyone one noping about VooT’s comment about how Ayn Rand should have had kids to mellow her out. Doubly wrong. Having kids won’t turn a shitty person into a nice person. Ask all the millions of people who were abused and/or neglected by one or both parents. Also, it implies parents are better people than non parents and that’s some bullshit.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

The problem with playing out sadism fantasies with sexbots is not related to the ethics of what might happen if they turn out to be sentient. AI is not this thing that just kind of happens to computers. People are working really hard to create AI and haven’t yet succeeded, so let’s not worry at this juncture about whether or not these sexbots will be sentient. That’s an abstract debate and an unlikely one to ever come up. If we wind up creating sentient robots, it will be on purpose and we’ll know what we’ve done.

No, the problem is squarely on what it will do to the people who engage in this behavior, and the blowback from that onto larger society.

Right now, virtually everyone knows that it is morally wrong, full stop, to sneak up on someone in the park, abduct them, rape and murder them. The majority of people wouldn’t even dream of doing something like that, because it is morally wrong, full stop. There is a minority of people who would really get a thrill out of that, actually, but because they know it is morally wrong, full stop, they are not tempted in reality to actually do it. A sliver of that group knows it is full-stop morally wrong, but they have a malfunctioning connection with morality, and that’s how we get serial killers.

Can we see where we might run into some problems if we remove the full stop from that equation? If we made it so that that sort of act is actually okay under certain circumstances? If you meet criteria a, b and c, then you’re all-clear to act out your rape/murder fantasy? I don’t think it’s difficult at all to see where that will inevitably go wrong.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
5 years ago

Policy of Madness — I’m kinda playing Devil’s Advocate here, because I have no real stake in this argument, so please, tell me to can it if you want. But that logic doesn’t really work already — those things are wrong to do, yeah, unless it’s roleplaying. Either traditional table top style RP, or naughty role playing… the former you don’t even need consent if your character is doing it to someone else’s character.

Fuck, I’ve done some questionable stuff while roleplaying (his character cut off mine’s face, and stole her pants, I think everyone was surprised that I cared more about the pants [faces regrow, amulets in pockets do not]), and don’t carry a snake bite kit IRL, nor am I about to go eavesdropping even… stuff that is less horrible than rape and murder sure (well, except the face I guess), but since everyone involved knows it’s a game it’s fine.

So how is it that we haven’t already removed the full stop from “this is wrong”? I mean, I’m not getting involved in anyone’s rape fantasies, but we’ve kinda already got that one muddy (I’m talking consensual kink here, not “misunderstanding”)

Again, feel free to tell me to can it, that role playing session did also involve go invisible and the walk through the wall *in that order* cuz our ST could be a massively annoying pedant and I totally get that I’m pushing that line here, but with higher stakes.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

those things are wrong to do, yeah, unless it’s roleplaying.

The kind of roleplaying you’re talking about is nothing at all like actually committing violence on another person. I’ve RPed: online, offline, tabletop, LARP, just about every flavor you can name. Roleplaying driving a car and actually driving a car are not even remotely similar experiences. RP can accurately simulate the social aspects of interacting with other people, but the physical aspects are completely and utterly different.

Either traditional table top style RP, or naughty role playing… the former you don’t even need consent if your character is doing it to someone else’s character.

Yeah, actually this kind of attitude is what ran me out of RP. A roleplaying game is like any other kind of game: it isn’t fun unless everyone is having fun. There are too many roleplayers who don’t actually get this concept, and who say “well, it’s just the way my character is” when confronted by the fact that their behavior is making the scene unfun for others. Yeah, that’s the character’s personality, but let’s think about why that character has that personality: because a player decided that this would be acceptable.

If I’m playing a roleplaying game with you? Yes, you do need my consent for your character to do something to mine. This is consent that I can withdraw at any moment by saying “fuck this shit, I’m done” and walking away from the table.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
5 years ago

Policy of Madness — fair enough on traditional RP, the only time I really pushed the line was when our storyteller explicitly asked me to take someone (his brother) down a notch, so I guess I just fucking forget that some people use that freedom to be asswipes, where we used it more to… idk… violent pranks? Not even quite that, but close enough. It being Vampire and sex just not being a thing they do prolly helped some there. (IRL fights were more “who finished the Mt. Dew?!”, I’ve thankfully never gamed with assholes)

Still leaves sexytimes role playing though. I’m thinking it’s not that sexbots would make it “okay if…” but that it would make it easier to simply ignore the issue of consent. There’s already a great number of things you wouldn’t do to a stranger, or even a friend, without explicit permission, but in some cases are downright fun with permission.

*shrugs* I’m thinking it’s the “you need consent, full stop” not the “you don’t do this, full stop”. Though you can’t consent to murder, as that one case displayed (Germany, I think?), so that one would go back to “its legal to destroy your own property”… which is what a sexbot would be…

We may be talking past each other now, since we certainly seem to agree that where real people are involved you need consent, generally legally, but morally even for P&P type RPG, and doing the thing in question with a person or person looking thing is a different beast… I’m just not sure how it’s sexbots that cross that line and not, say, blow up dolls or real dolls. Well, you’ll pop a blow up doll if you, say, cut it, but some actual fleshy people are into such things (again, consensual kink), and a real doll wouldn’t be destroyed that way… so why treat sexbots differently?

(((If anything I’m arguing we already crossed that line with real dolls)))

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
5 years ago

TMI — if it’s coming off as “but I wanna hurt people!” it’s not, I t’s the other end, I’m not the Domly Dom type. I am the sort that has really weird boundaries that may make questionable play fine but tickling an Absolutely Not.

So yeah, I’m not arguing “but I already can with consent” but rather “I already consent, or at least may” (consent, it be conditional)

Lady Mondegreen
5 years ago

Others have mentioned it, but I want to underline the fact that “The Satanic Temple” is very very different from the Church of Satan. TST are the ones who erected the statue of Baphomet in the town (I think it was in Missouri) with the Ten Commandments monument.

They don’t just troll Christian theocrats, though. They’re politically active progressives. They’re really the opposite of the Objectivist Church of Satan.

(If you get a chance to read their activity book for kids, take a look. The artwork is meh, but it’s kinda sweet. You can download it online.)

http://thesatanictemple.com/

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his pronouns)
5 years ago

katz | December 2, 2015 at 7:41 pm
Someone like her may have benefited by having children. Kids usually mellow people out and warm them up.

NOPE.

Yeah, that was my reaction when I read that, too. For multiple reasons.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his pronouns)
5 years ago

No doubt. She and her hubby (was-not sure if they’re divorced) founded “The Order of the Werewolf”

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bill-murray-sunglasses.gif

(which was mega neo-Nazi.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/nvrmnd.gif

Why nazis have to ruin everything. That’s a cool club name, come on.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@Jackie:
Because they’re Nazis. It’s what they do.

sbel
sbel
5 years ago

@Policy of Madness,

You say “I don’t think it’s difficult at all to see where that will inevitably go wrong.” I disagree. It’s possible that things may go wrong, but I don’t think it’s at all “obvious” that it “will inevitably go wrong.”

You think that letting people do what they want with robots will lead to more humans being raped and killed. The Church of Satan guys think it will reduce that kind of violence. I don’t think there is sufficient evidence to say for sure what will happen.

I’ve heard similar arguments against video games (and rap, and DnD, and Harry Potter, and porn etc) for pretty much my whole life, and they’ve never been right. It’s possible that “this time it’s different!” but I’m always pretty skeptical about that claim. I’ve heard it a lot.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his pronouns)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Jackie; currently using they/their, he/his pronouns)
5 years ago

EJ (The Other One) | December 3, 2015 at 12:44 am
@Jackie:
Because they’re Nazis. It’s what they do.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/powerrangers.gif

THAT EXPLAINS SO MANY THING OMG.

Bernardo Soares
Bernardo Soares
5 years ago

I disagree on the sex robot-videogames controversy comparison. The argument against videogames is/was that they make people violent who wouldn’t become violent otherwise. The Satanists’ argument for sex robots is that they will be an outlet for people who already have violent sexual fantasies to act them out.

I’m playing Hotline Miami, an ultrabrutal and bloody game, not because I need a safe environment to act out my violent fantasies. I don’t have any. I’m horrified by guns and wouldn’t even consider to take one into my hand, let alone use it even for self-defense. The game is, however, a great tactical experience and has a sense of flow that I like in a videogame (I would prefer if it was less violent, although the story revolves around questioning that violence – which doesn’t really work, but anyways…).

The sex robot argument, however, says it’s ok for people who have extremely violent sexual fantasies to act them out on non-conscious beings instead of dealing with their onw dangerous psychological state in therapy. I’m with PoM: removing the full stop from that moral equasion is going to lead to all kinds of problems, morally, politically and socially.

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

Yeah, I’m with Policy of Madness and Bernardo Soares. I think that violence against robots could lead to violence against sentient beings.

The Planned Parenthood shooting tends to confirm this. Carly Fiorina — lying liar — cites a lying video. Then some guy decides, “No more baby parts.” Some people are extremely vulnerable to societal messages, even if they are loathsome and false. In the worst case scenario, these people are willing to up the ante.

And of course, all people are vulnerable to societal messages. We’re social creatures.

kiki
kiki
5 years ago

Because they’re Nazis. It’s what they do.

Yeah, they totally ruined white supremacy for the rest of us!

/Sargon /Aurini

hedin
hedin
5 years ago

I don’t like LaVey, but I think we’re being entirely too hard on him in this case. A casual look at our world doesn’t just show that sadism is common, it shows we’re ruled by sadists. American foreign policy, and our so-called “criminal justice” system take lives as expendable, and often view inflicting great suffering as laudable — and it’s not like we’re the only ones. And obviously, the people David writes about in this blog are only less terrible than many of our leaders by virtue of having less power.

I don’t really think LaVey’s proposal would solve that problem, but I don’t think it’s a nutty idea either. The goal is to let sadists inflict their sadistic bullshit on objects that can’t feel it so that the rest of us don’t have to suffer it. He’s creepily cheery about the prospect of being “king” over things that would look like suffering people, but it’s still win-win — if it would work. Personally, I don’t think it would, but this sort of technology must have looked much bigger and more impressive to someone living in his era. The worst thing I’d say about his robot proposal (aside from the fact that he comes off hella creepy) is that he’s overestimating technology, and misunderstanding its probable effects.

Pie
Pie
5 years ago

AI is hard. Teleoperation less so. The first “proper” sexbots may well be remotely operated, and wouldn’t that just open up a huge can of legal worms.

Berdache from a previous life
Berdache from a previous life
5 years ago

Sexbots are a ways off, really good virtual reality is much closer. VR will bring up many of the same ethical questions as sexbots.

Anybody know if MRAs talk about VR at all? I’m curious but not curious enough to wade through the nonsense I’d have to find the answer.

When Sexbots do become a reality, wonder how long it’ll be before the modern version of vagina dentata emerges as an urban legend about a man getting his penis crushed by a sexbot.

guy
guy
5 years ago

The ethical issues will become a thing at basically the same time because it’s an AI issue. I’m not going to call the relative timing of immersive VR and quality sexbot chassis; I could see them happening in either order.

AnAndrejaPejicBlog (@A_Pejic_Blog)

VR with some sort of haptic feedback doohickeys makes much more sense than sex bots. It would allow a whole lot more flexibility. One could pick the setting as well as one’s sex partner(s). I would think that VR would be feasible much sooner, too. Already, there’s a hands-free sex toy for men that can give varying stimulation to match the action in certain porn DVDs.