The Paris attacks have inspired cartoonist and opinion-haver Scott Adams to reflect on some of the true injustices in the world today.
Specifically, the fact that in the United States, men often pay for dates, yet cannot have sex with women without getting their permission first.
In a blog post that is incoherent even by his standards, Adams compares the male-dominated societies of the Middle East with what he describes as “female-dominated countries” like the US.
In his mind, American men live in a matriarchal dystopia in which women force men to pay for dinner and open car doors for them:
When I go to dinner, I expect the server to take my date’s order first. I expect the server to deliver her meal first. I expect to pay the check. I expect to be the designated driver, or at least manage the transportation for the evening. And on the way out, I will hold the door for her, then open the door to the car.
Weird, because I’ve literally never had a date like that. And even if all this were true, as a general thing, it wouldn’t be proof that the US is “female-dominated.” Chivalry is part of patriarchy, not proof of matriarchy.
When we get home, access to sex is strictly controlled by the woman.
Er, dude, that’s how sex works. Both sex partners have to agree to it, otherwise it’s rape. And men have veto power when it comes to sex just like women do. Women aren’t allowed to force themselves on unwilling partners any more than men are.
If the woman has additional preferences in terms of temperature, beverages, and whatnot, the man generally complies. If I fall in love and want to propose, I am expected to do so on my knees, to set the tone for the rest of the marriage.
What a romantic fellow, proposing to a woman even though she’s some kind of spoiled princess who has preferences about room temperature and refuses to have sex when she doesn’t want to have sex.
Also, Adams wants everyone to know that when he talks over women in meetings, it’s not that he’s a sexist, it’s just that women talk too much.
Women have made an issue of the fact that men talk over women in meetings. In my experience, that’s true. But for full context, I interrupt anyone who talks too long without adding enough value. If most of my victims turn out to be women, I am still assumed to be the problem in this situation, not the talkers.
But really, the problem is that ladies just won’t shut up amirite fellas high five!
The alternative interpretation of the situation – that women are more verbal than men – is never discussed as a contributing factor to interruptions. Can you imagine a situation where – on average – the people who talk the most do NOT get interrupted the most?
Uh, yes. Because that’s not just a hypothetical “situation.” It’s the way the world actually works.
I don’t know if the amount of talking each person does is related to the amount of interrupting they experience, or if there is a gender difference to it, but it seems like a reasonable hypothesis.
Unfortunately for Adams, this is a hypothesis that’s been repeatedly disproved. Men talk more than women in meetings, yet are more likely to interrupt women than women are to interrupt them.
Weird how Adams, who thinks of himself as a rational sciencey guy, didn’t even bother to do the 30 seconds of Googling that would have shown that his “reasonable hypothesis” was a crock.
Speaking of weirdness, Adams goes on to suggest that he might turn to terrorism if no one gives him a hug. Literally.
So if you are wondering how men become cold-blooded killers, it isn’t religion that is doing it. If you put me in that situation, I can say with confidence I would sign up for suicide bomb duty. And I’m not even a believer. Men like hugging better than they like killing. But if you take away my access to hugging, I will probably start killing, just to feel something. I’m designed that way. I’m a normal boy. And I make no apology for it.
NOTE TO SELF: Do not invite Scott Adams to any party without also inviting this dude:
Or maybe don’t invite Adams to any parties at all.
Wow! I can’t believe you are getting positive responses to this hot garbage you wrote. A child could clearly see Scott Adams is trying to be humorous, not literal. I’m disappointed in a few struggling web comic writers that are parroting this nonsense. I’d expect that from idiots like Jeph Jacques or Jon Rosenberg, but I’m surprised at Bill Barnes. I thought he was more intelligence than that.
And let me be the first here to say, “Thank you.”
That and your queues *deep, satisfied inhalation* – both were just delightful when I visited.
23andMe may say that my ancestry is only 50% from the British Isles, but bythegods my heart is with you all when it comes to courtesy and orderly public conduct.
@mockingbird:
Have you read How To Be An Alien? It’s a little dated, but George Mikes is still the master when it comes to spotting how English people behave.
I’ve been to a lot of restaurants and I’ve never had the situation of the woman being asked to order first. It’s universally been the case that the server has just asked something like “Are you ready to order?” addressed to both of us.
I’ve never had the bill presented to any particular person either. It just gets plonked down between us.
I’ve never ordered for the woman either, although in favourite restaurants I might recommend something they do exceptionallt well. A lot of the time though I don’t even order for myself; I’m a big fan of just asking the server to dish up whatever they think is nice. In good restaurants that way you’ll generally end up with whatever the chef does best. Some scuzzier restaurants will just dump you with whatever they’re trying to get rid of but that’s also the risk you take ordering the “specials”.
@EJ – Nope, but I just found it as a PDF, downloaded it / probably infected my computer with something, and will read it shortly 😀
Thanks for the rec.
I’ve been to many fancy restaurants with my in-laws in the US, and my experience with those kinds of places is they generally let my MiL order first, then my wife or SiL, then my FiL, then me or my SiL’s boyfriend.
@ dhag
That’s interesting. I wonder if it’s a US thing then. Any USians care to comment; especially if you have serving experience?
@ Mockingbird
The test of a true Brit is when someone crashes their car through your house and runs you over in your own living room and you’re response is “Sorry about that, my fault entirely”
So true. Women have ALL the power in relationships.
I waited tables for 20 years in family style diners. Never once asked for ‘her’ order first and never once did I ever have a man order for his date. I dropped tickets in the center of the table, or handed it to whomever asked for it. The oldest male of the group generally paid, but not always.
@dhag, I’m really sorry if I’m overstepping when I say this, but if you are ever interested in using different pronouns on this blog, regardless of your presentation in your offline life, I’m sure everyone will accommodate that. I don’t think any of these folks care what you look like; we only care about what feels right to you.
My own pronouns are she/her, if anyone is wondering. 🙂
As far as whose order gets taken and whose food gets brought out first… In my experience as a Canadian, in really fancy restaurants it is often the women, starting typically with the eldest woman, who are first asked for their orders. It’s silly and condescending, but pretty inconsequential, because the server takes everyone’s order before leaving the table anyway. Likewise, food is usually brought to the women first, if it’s not all brought out at once. Again, silly, but not all that important, because it’s considered rude to start eating in swanky establishments before everyone’s food has arrived. It’s not like you eat your whole entrée before your male date gets theirs.
In less pretentious places, servers tend to follow the simpler system of first person to speak up gets their order taken first, and then around the table. Much better.
I’m a USian, but I’m West coast, where we don’t even follow formalities like dressing professionally at work (it’s not even that unusual to see someone come to work in their pjs). Super fancy restaurants have a set menu and you’ll have to tell them any accommodations when you make the reservations, so there’s no order taking. I’ve never noticed an order in which people are served at those. Fancy places with menus here take orders usually starting with whomever speaks up first. In the case that the wait person pointedly looks at someone to indicate they should order first, it’s usually the woman. At mid-range places they specifically ask your order in the order of where you’re seated because that’s how the swats are in the computer and if you’re in a large party that’s the order the other wait/bus staffordable will know to deliver the food.
Most of the time, though, the guests set the tone with how they give their order, rather than the server being the one responsible. So if he’s on a date and he wants to order first, maybe he should treat his date like a human being and talk to her about it instead of making assumptions about what she wants?
@dhag
Yes, that’s considered mannerly in the U.S. for any more-formal meal, whether in a decent restaurant or a private home: start with the oldest non-child female person, then next-oldest, until the youngest non-child female. Then start with the oldest male, down to the youngest non-child male. Then all the children, starting with the oldest, regardless of gender.
Is now a good time to discuss spoons? Forks? In all seriousness, has no-one heard of manners? (And don’t get me started on European “manners”: I’d rather watch hogs at slop than the British royal family at table.)
@Viscaria
That’s really sweet of you to say. I’ve definitely had those sorts of thoughts before. It’s not so much that I think I would be more comfortable in a different gender, but it’s really more that the whole concept has become so blurred to me. I never think of myself in terms of gender, and while I do pick up on other people’s gender identity I don’t think it makes me act any different toward them. When it comes to my own identity, I realize I don’t live any of the experiences of being trans, or being a woman, or being anything other than a cis man. I don’t think I could play around with different pronouns online without on some level feeling like I’m lying or being disrespectful. (And with that, I don’t mean to judge other people in similar situations. This is strictly about my thoughts on myself.) The tl;dr version is probably: I wish it were different, but it’s not, so that’s that. :/
That’s right. Because your rights end where other people’s bodies begin. People don’t owe you sex just because you want it or because you paid for a fucking meal. If you want to pay for sex, go to the appropriate venue. Clue: the appropriate venue is one in which all parties have agreed to the transaction, not a date where a woman is obligated to give you what you want because you shelled out a few bucks.
If you’re the type that is “complying” just to get sex, instead of just being a thoughtful human being, you are manipulating her for your own selfish gains, not for her benefit, so stop pretending you’re actually giving her something beneficial.
You don’t get to decide what constitutes “value”. If I had a dime for every time a man has yammered on and on about garbage that basically came down to bragging about himself without giving any “value”, I could retire rich right now. Men’s opinions =/= automatic value.
I’m tired of the hypocritical way that manospherians have no problem devaluing stereotypical behaviors of women based on so-called hard-wiring and nature, but think the world has to accomodate them for shortcomings related to their own.
No. The world doesn’t have to give in to social terrorists who threaten violence because of their selfish base instincts. If you’re that primitive and simple, you need to rethink your belief that your lack of logic and lack of self-control entitle you to control the world.
His explanation for why he interrupts women is pretty funny actually. “Sure, I interrupt women more, but only because I don’t value what they have to say!” Yes, congratulations, that’s exactly the problem.
(Oh, dear! I need to post more often!)
So. Scott Adams put his foot in his mouth again. Why am I not surprised–
…never mind, dude just put his entire leg in his mouth with that statement.
As far as restaurants go, it has been a very long time since I’ve had the experience of a server doing their job in a sexist way. If there are more than two people at the table, taking orders is always taken in order around the table. If it is just my husband and I, sometimes they’ll look at us to see who wants to go first and sometimes they will just look at me. It’s really no big deal to either of us. Who pays depends on who finishes first and has a few extra minutes to take care of it. I never have the problem of any server assuming my husband is paying the bill; it’s always placed in the center of the table and when it comes back is always given to whomever gave the card. Gee, I guess the servers take 5 seconds to look at the name on the card. Funny how that happens.
This book totally saved my bacon when I first moved here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Watching-English-Hidden-Rules-Behaviour/dp/0340818867
The chapter on table manners alone is worth the price of admission.
My grandmother had a serving order for large family gatherings that went women from youngest to oldest, then men from oldest to youngest. We might not have ever noticed were it not for twin siblings, sister and brother, who were baffled as to why they were served first and last.
While we’re on the subject of regional etiquette and language quirks, I absolutely love How to Talk Minnesotan by satirist Howard Mohr. The satire is so dry, you can barely tell it’s even satire. I don’t know if the video plays outside the US, but I do highly recommend it.
http://video.tpt.org/video/2365042610/
@dhag
I have a similar sound of gender outlook to you, I think. If I had my druthers, I wouldn’t be male or female, and I’d have no genitals at all. (That last part is probably due to my asexuality; it would be nice to have nothing for people to expect me to make use of.) That’s not really an option, though, and I’ve never felt particularly distressed about being female/being viewed as female, except in the cases of periods and people being misogynistic, respectively. She/her pronouns work just as well as any other ones for me, so, eh.
RE: Restaurants
In my experience, it’s always been whoever speaks up first gets their order taken. In the cases of some Chinese and Indian restaurants, where you order several dishes and share them all between you, the table comes to a consensus and then only one person orders the whole slew of food (unless they forget a dish).
If the woman has additional preferences in terms of temperature, beverages, and whatnot, the man generally complies.
This is kind of my favorite. These womenfolk, so out of control they think they can make their own beverage selections! What happened to the good old days when you just jammed a funnel in a lady’s mouth and poured?
This is hardly an original observation, but I will never get over how anti-feminists will dismiss every feminist issue as complaining about nothing, then throw epic tantrums over problems so tiny they can only be seen with an electron microscope.
Not a big deal, according to Adams: women getting paid less than men, women getting dismissed and talked over in professional situations, the universal dearth of women in positions of economic and political power.
Tyrannical oppression: this one time he went to a restaurant and the waiter put down his date’s plate before his plate, allowing a woman to get food a tenth of a second before he did. Note: he mentions he hasn’t been on a date in a very long time, so this crime against men either happened decades ago or is imaginary.
And another time a woman said his apartment was too warm and she didn’t want any hot chocolate! MATRIARCHY.
I love how these guys assume that cishet women experience no downside if they happen to be interested in casual sex! It’s as if they’re sure there are no consequences whatsoever to a woman being outed as a “slut” in her personal and professional circles. Or that the only downside to being approached for sex constantly is mild annoyance and not outright fear.
I can tell you, as a former casual sex enthusiast, I walked on eggshells trying to determine if the guy I was interested in could be trusted to be discrete.