I had hoped to avoid writing about Cassie Jaye and her strange journey into Red Pill-land again so soon.
Jaye, you may recall, is the apparently former feminist who is now directing a movie about the Men’s Rights movement that is, as she herself put it in one interview, “kind of being funded by men’s rights advocates.” A Voice for Men, the Men’s Rights garbage site at the heart of her film, actively helped her to raise money on Kickstarter for postproduction work on the film.
It’s no secret that I have some rather serious doubts that she will provide the “balanced” look at the Men’s Rights movement that she has been promising. I have written several posts here highly critical of her and the direction her Red Pill documentary seems to be going.
So I can understand that she’s not a big fan of me at the moment. Unfortunately, she’s responded to my criticisms with, well, lies.
And now she’s added a new lie to the pile, claiming in a recent interview with YouTube blabber Sargon of Akkad that I sent her “bullying” emails. After dismissing my concerns about her film as a “smear campaign,” she went on to say that
David Futrelle was also emailing me privately – two different emails since the Kickstarter – and so I made a statement video, I think a week ago, trying to just have something on record where I’m explaining the false allegations that Futrelle is reporting and so I had my say out there on record. And something maybe I should have included in that it hasn’t just been his articles and tweets; it’s also been private emails. Well, I think the word that most closely describes it is bullying.
(The interview is more than two hours long; she first brings me up about ten minutes in, and makes the comments above at around the 23 minute mark, after being asked about harassment.)
Jaye is right about one thing: I sent her two emails since the Kickstarter started. But to describe them as “bullying” is beyond bizarre.
So let’s take a look at them, shall we?
I sent the first email before she solved her funding problems by giving an interview to Breitbart, and when I still thought there was a chance Jaye might deliver something even vaguely close to a balanced view of the Men’s Rights movement in her Red Pill film, rather than the straight-up MRA propaganda that it seemed to be turning into.
In the subject line of the email, I told her I was “deeply concerned” about her film. In the email, I explained why
Cassie,
We haven’t talked since the plans for an interview with me fell through, which may have been my fault.
But I have just watched the preview for your film and looked at some of the things you’ve posted on your facebook page and I am very deeply concerned about the direction of your film, and the highly unbalanced list of people that you interviewed for it.
It looks as though you have gotten a highly distorted, one-sided view of the Men’s Rights movement, by talking to a bunch of MRAs who tamped down their anger long enough to give you a sanitized pitch about what it is they do.
It’s good that you talked to some feminists. But instead of talking to those feminists and writers who have actually dealt with MRAs on a regular basis you have talked to feminists who have only a vague connection to what is really going on with the Men’s Rights movement.
I’ve been writing about them for five years now, and trust me, the video here is a better representation of them than what I’ve seen in your preview.
I linked to the now-notorious video of Paul Elam’s crude, drunken and NSFW tirade about two feminists.
I suppose that might have been a little harsh. saying that Elam’s video was a more accurate representation of MRAs than what she’s posted from her film. Then again, it is. I continued, referencing something Elam said in in the clip of the film she posted:
Elam, I think it was, made a joke about how no feminists were harmed during the making of your film. But in fact during the several years you have been making this film, many feminists and other women have been harmed by Elam and his allies.
Though she talked to one of the more famous victims of MRA harassment, I noted that there had been “many, many others,” and suggested that
Making a video about Elam and his allies at AVFM without talking to these women would be like making a documentary about Bill Cosby without talking to any of his accusers.
I listed a number of these women, with links to relevant posts of mine about them.
I mentioned one AVFMer who, since Jaye had interviewed him, had fallen out with Elam, with each accusing the other of being a con man. I mentioned that one MRA that Jaye had “managed to get an almost reasonable-sounding quote out of” was better known for his bitter, vicious attacks on Twitter. I mentioned “Janet Bloomfield’s” troubles with the truth.
And I pointed her to a notorious post from Paul Elam in which he declared he wasn’t actually interested in doing anything to help men beyond yelling at people on the internet.
I ended with this:
You can find more information about almost all of these things on my blog, even if I haven’t provided a link. And if you need any more information or links or contact information, please feel free to contact me. And I really hope you do.
And I hope even more strongly that you contact some of the women that Elam and his allies have harmed.
I should point out that I was not writing out of the blue. She had in fact contacted me during the filming of The Red Pill, asking for information and advice and attempting to set up an interview on film, which ended up falling through for various logistical reasons. We hadn’t communicated since then.
In any case, after this note, Jaye offered to talk to me on the phone about some of these issues and, after a few brief emails back and forth to set up a time to talk, we did, for about 20 minutes, I think.
I was polite, she was polite, and I believe I offered apologies for the sometimes blunt tone of my email to her. She assured me she was aware of all the issues I was raising, and that the film would reflect many of my concerns, which she told me that she herself shared.
After this conversation, I seriously considered stepping forward to offer public support to her Kickstarter, despite my serious misgivings over the footage she had released so far, her marketing strategies, and the unbalanced roster of interviewees.
But I couldn’t overcome my doubts about her, and after reading her interview with Breitbart I realized that my gut feelings about her had been right. She had been bullshitting me, and bullshitting feminists in general. And so I wrote my Open Letter to her.
So what about that second email of mine? I wrote that after A Voice for Men accused me of threatening her, in an attempt to clarify to her what I had actually meant in my Open Letter, and to check one fact with her.
Here’s the whole thing:
She didn’t respond. Figuring that she didn’t want to talk to me, I didn’t send a followup.
I’m having trouble understanding how my saying that “hey, these MRAs giving you money are actually total jerks” counts as bullying, exactly.
Indeed, in an interview published a day after I sent that email, she made it clear that MRA harassment is something she herself worries about, jokingly telling Tracy Clark-Flory of Vocativ that she could always “go into hiding” if the MRAs partially funding her film weren’t happy with it.
Cassie, if you want to see what bullying looks like, take a look at what A Voice for Men’s “social media director” did to feminist writer Jessica Valenti on Twitter. Look at Elam offering $100 for a clear photo of one of his enemies. Look at the hate campaign Elam launched against one female college student because she attended a demonstration and made a few jokes on Twitter. Click on the “harassment”or “bullying” tags on this blog for countless more examples.
Hell, go take a look at any of the examples of women harassed by AVFM and other MRAs that I sent you in that first email of mine.
I wasn’t trying to bully you; I was doing my best to convince you to listen to the women that the apparent heroes of your documentary have bullied, and continue to bully to this day.
I know that you spoke to one of these women. I hope that you at least do her justice in your film, though at this point, admittedly, I don’t have much reason to think you will.
NOTE: For reasons of space I didn’t include all of the first email. If you are a journalist or someone else with a legitimate need to fact check this piece I can send you the entire email. As text, as a screenshot, with the gory details of the email’s passage over the internet, whatever.
I think PI scared all of the trollies away.
Nothing will terrify MRAS like facts. Facts be skeery.
No, but I imagine you’re going to ‘splain that he is because reasons.
Way to not pay attention, Nonny!
One, these MRAs don’t actually give a shit about men’s problems, and two, we’ve actually expressed concerns for Jaye’s safety.
But yeah, we all hate her and junk, right? Because how dare she talk to MRAs?! They have cooties! [/sarcasm]
Yup, knee-jerking, projection, and assfax all the way down with this one.
Except we can see who the backers were, and Jaye herself talked about how after lots of feminists backed out, she suddenly got a bunch of money after she did an interview with Breitbart.
Oh, and lots of MRAs are championing this as “the movie feminists don’t want you to see”, and got up on their respective soapboxes to call for money.
So when feminists are backing out of the project, and MRAs are championing it, and lavishing her with praise and money, chances are they’re the ones mostly bankrolling the project, and that’s not a dumb thing for them to do. Quite the opposite in fact. It’s a good PR move to lavish the director of a documentary about your movement with praise, money, and feel-goodness. (‘Course, people are going to see them on their best behavior in the film. Imagine the surprise when some of the viewers go to see their sites.)
Though, I am wondering how a Kickstarted project can’t be biased because people can choose to not donate to it and it’s public. I mean, Jaye’s the one making the project, not the people who donated to her. If a bunch of MRAs donated to her movie, and a bunch of feminists did not and said that her movie was a bad idea, it does seem plausible that Jaye would be biased towards them.
TIL: Not immediately agreeing with MRAs and their shitty beliefs means you’re stupid. (And it’s “modicum” by the way. If you’re going to insult someone’s intelligence, use spell check.)
Are you JudgyBitch or Jack Barnes? Or just one of their “minions” who is swallowing their bullshit wholesale and claiming conspiracy without realizing that David has never once doxxed anyone and he, and the rest of the community at WHTM, has condemned what happened multiple times now?
It never ceases to amaze me how MRAs will carry on with an argument, even if it’s not the one anyone else is having. It’s like you’re running on a script, and any deviation will just throw all of your next lines off, so you choose to ignore it and go on anyway.
Intention isn’t magical, bruh. Jaye can “intend” to make something unbiased, but honestly? I hope it is pro-MRA, because she’d get harassed and attacked if it wasn’t.
Though, of course, I’d imagine your version of “both sides” is “feminists get five minutes, MRAs get an hour and fifty-five, and we can only talk to feminists MRAs approve of, and we’ll interview lots of MRAs who are on their best behavior instead of ones that advocate for rape and murder”.
Honestly, we’re scared of what will happen to Jaye if the movie isn’t pro-MRA to the MRAs’ liking. She’s already said that she’s been stalked, and the MHRM has a history of shredding people that have somehow “crossed” them.
Hell, just looking at AVfM alone (where I’m sure you crawled out of) shows us Elam offering a bounty for a woman’s photograph so she can be harassed, JudgyBitch doxxing and harassing someone else (and she’s even come here to try to convince us to doxx someone for her), and Jack Barnes saying he will harass and intimidate feminists until “no one will openly admit to being a feminist”.
Yeah, such nice, civil people, amirite? [/sarcasm]
We didn’t care when The Sarkeesian Effect came out, and we won’t care when this comes out. We don’t care if someone wants to make a documentary about MRAs. We only are worried for Jaye’s safety should the documentary not go to Elam’s liking.
But you hold on to those imaginary scenarios where we’re all quaking in our little bootsies if that’s what helps you sleep at night.
All these statistics and sources that other feminists have debunked hundreds of times before, and of issues that are being addressed by feminists, but funnily enough not by MRAs beyond “SHUT UP FEEEMALES MEN HAVE PROBLEMS TOO!”.
But of course, any time we bring up something smaller, it gets dismissed as a “first world problem” by MRAs, and we get told to go be a projection of their Great White Savior Complex in “THE MIDDLE EAST” or some shit.
Because it never occurs to MRAs that women are complex human beings who are capable of caring about women in the middle east and manspreading at the same time, and are capable of realizing that sure, one is a bigger problem, but they’re both still problems, and we should be able to talk about it without MRAs treating it as an attack on their masculinity or on men in general.
I fail to see why “Hey, can you not sit with your legs so far apart on public transport?” causes MRAs to froth with rage. (And no, you “can’t sit with your legs apart because your balls get in the way” is not an excuse. Otherwise, you’d walk bow-legged.)
You do realize that there’s more than one study, right? From more than one place? From more than one time? And they all say pretty much the same thing?
But nah, they all be lyin’ because femicommunazi illuminati made up rape culture to keep men down, right? [/sarcasm]
Men get raped too and are mocked by MRAs because they say men should like to get raped because “men like sex”, or if they were raped by another man, then they’re disgusting and aren’t “real men” anymore because another man assaulted them. But when a woman talks about women being raped, suddenly they give a shit, and suddenly they’re all about male rape victims.
This is also part of rape culture. This is also happening. And I’ve yet to see an MRA give a shit about male rape victims beyond trying to shut a feminist up or derail someone else talking about female/trans/nonbinary/PoC victims.
NO U.
Though, I don’t think you’d know what “real feminism” was if it reached up and grabbed you by both asscheeks, Nonny.
I imagine your definition of it is “Women don’t ever question sexism and just nod along with me”.
Actually, that comic was poking at women who say they’re not feminists at all because they “don’t hate men”, because they believe, much like you do, that we all hate men because they’re men, rather than hating the systems of toxic masculinity and sexism they were raised with.
Or, like the woman in the comic feels like questioning toxic masculinity and sexism is somehow an attack on men, rather than feminists simply saying that “toxic masculinity and sexism are bad”, and this is another common misconception.
If you took the time to “look at both sides” instead of knee-jerk all over the place (ironic that you’re praising Jaye for doing one thing you yourself refuse to do), you’d realize that we don’t hate men at all.
I mean, shit, if we hated men, why the fuck do we like David’s blog so much? If we hated men, why would we date/marry/fuck them at all?
If we hated men so fucking much, why are some feminist allies men? Why are some of our regulars here men?
Though, I’m sure I can guess the response: “They’re all beta mangina white knight cucks!”
@Argenti Aertheri
Here you go: New WordPress.com smileys (+ hidden ones)
:bear: On a desktop, if you hover over the icon, it reveals the code.
PI for president.
@Chiomara
Seems legit!
The accusations of man-hating leveled by the trolls at the present company and feminists in general are preposterous, given what this blog documents: the casual, vile degradation and dehumanization of women perpetrated by red pillers and MRAs day in and out.
Do these trolls read with comprehension? Have they not seen the contents of this very blog, for one?
Do they really want to stand with men and some women who advocate all kinds of abuse of women and stripping them of their basic rights (to vote, to education, to self-determination — see, for instance, the comments on Dalrock’s two latest threads; or, for that matter, any thread, on any red pill / MRA site, at any time)?
Only a morally corrupt person would defend the perps and accuse those who oppose them of man-hating.
@PI
“Though, I’m sure I can guess the response: “They’re all beta mangina white knight cucks!””
More or less, yes, that would be their exact response.
I’ve come to decide that anyone who uses the term ‘cuck’ unironically, in full seriousness, isn’t worth listening to.
The instant someone uses that term within range of me, I’m probably just going to disregard everything they say.
And it’s “modicum” by the way.
He must be referring to Eric Modecombe, the classic comedian who’s only funny in small doses.
But, femucommunazis all hate men because we don’t like manspreading or rape or men being men by beating and attacking women who say no to them!
And then we evil feeemales ask them to stop beating us and treat us like people, instead of sex toy Mommy kitchen wombs that make them sammiches and clean up after them, and let them use our vaginas to pleasure their penises!
[This post may contain heavy doses of sarcasm. Handle with care.]
Speaking of men attacking women for saying no: A woman was beaten with a baseball bat here in California for saying no to sex with her boyfriend. (NSFW for obvious reasons)
There’s no pictures thankfully, and the woman will survive, as will her 17-year-old son who also got beat when he tried to intervene.
But yeah, us women are totally the “privileged class”, right? Shit like this happens on a regular basis and I’ll bet dollars to donuts that an MRA will be in some fucking comment section saying “Well, she deserved it because she said she wouldn’t fuck her boyfriend, and he’s got a right to fuck her, regardless of what she wants!”
But yeah, MRA ideology doesn’t hurt anyone, amirite? [/sarcasm]
@Bvh
Oh, but they are. Both were handled to me by the same person, Mommy.
The trophies are real, they come straight from their factory in China!
@kiki. ha ha ha! Sometimes I wish we had a ‘like’ button.
@PI
“sex toy Mommy kitchen wombs ”
I felt a little nauseous reading that.
Like, I just imagined a giant, pulsating, veiny, slippery, human-sized uterus, sprouting kitchen implements and kitchen appliances from fleshy growths, wearing a large, frilly apron, with protuberant, very obvious vulva.
Visually similar to something Paul Robertson would have made.
@Frank Torpedo:
Would it be wrong of me to refer to something like that as Lovecraftian?
I enjoyed “Modecombe” too.
It’s down in Devon: very good cream teas.
Great article and all, but am I the only one who thinks Cassie Jaye looks like she’s only 12 in that photo?
@PI
While I’m not an expert on Lovecraft’s work, I don’t see why it would be wrong of you, no.
@Frank Jaye:
I’m pretty sure that’s a level from System Shock 2.
@Matthew Field – Ehhhhhh I’m not comfortable poking fun at Jaye’s looks (even just to say she looks young). Women get enough of that already. There are ways to question the seriousness of her work without pulling her appearance into it.
You may find your rhetorical question isn’t so effective if you have to provide the answer yourself. Especially when your answer turns out to be wrong.
You should stop guessing and read more. The bit of the video in which she claimed that she was avoiding biased funders was quoted in WHTM’s first article about this.
misha
I’m coming round to the view that she’s an instance of a more-common-than-we-thought approach. Both naive-ignorant and dishonest-deceitful. You see it a lot in online discussions with anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers. They really don’t know what they’re talking about and they push a definite point of view with a fair dose of bad intention driving them. The personal nastiness is just an occasional bonus.
It’s clear she doesn’t know anything, anything at all, about feminism. That’s not surprising given her family background and her education/activities so far. But she also sees no need to discover or understand what feminism is now, what its history has been nor what its current theories and priorities are.
I don’t know about “cutting her loose”, but I don’t envy anyone who might make the effort to try and educate her now.
With what we know about this woman’s character by now, I am just glad she didn’t go through with her original idea to make a documentary about rape culture…
Can I just take a moment to vent about grammar?
“Bias” is a noun, people, not an adjective. One should not say “this source is bias” or “make [the documentary] bias”; one should instead say “this source is biased” or “make [the documentary] biased.” This is a common mistake that I see a lot online; oddly enough it’s almost always amongst #GGers and adjacent groups.
The scholar in me wonders if this is an example of linguistic drift occurring within a closed community; the SJW in me suspects that it might be a coinage to avoid confusion with the term “based” within those same communities.
EJ:
I’m quite sure I saw “bias” used as an adjective long before GG came on the scene. Interestingly, though, I can’t recall ever seeing this particular mistake made by anyone expressing a left-of-centre viewpoint. It’s always right-wingers.
@EJ (TOO)
Given the rest of the comment, I assumed they meant to type “make it biased”, but bashed it out in a hurry and didn’t notice the mistake before posting.
The similarity between “biased” and “based” – and the likelihood that someone unfamiliar with #GG-speak would think the latter to be a typo for the former – did strike me while I was writing my first response.