Jack Barnes, the notoriously hotheaded Men’s Rights Activist and longtime contributor to A Voice for Men, has escalated his attacks on me. In a post on AVFM, Barnes addressed me directly:
I’m a junkyard dog with no owner and no collar. …
Didn’t anyone ever tell you that you shouldn’t piss off a redheaded country boy from the backwoods of Tennessee? I promise you David that for the rest of your life there will be nights you cry yourself to sleep in anger and frustration over me.
In a followup post on TwitLonger, someone claiming to be Barnes — and it seems abundantly clear that it is in fact him — threatened to drive from Tennessee to Chicago to confront me in
a face to face in person discussion … No cops. No lawyers or prosecutors. No judges. No jury. No hiding behind a computer. Just me and you. …
I don’t know of any parent that would blame me for stomping a mud hole in your fucking ass and walking that motherfucker dry for what you have done!
What I have done is, in fact, nothing — nothing beyond letting the world know of some of the disturbing things Barnes has posted online.
But as Barnes sees it, I am responsible for putting his family in danger. How? Well, not long ago, someone apparently doxed Barnes, posting personal information about Barnes and his family on Twitter.
Of course, I had nothing to do with the doxing and only learned about it later from an AVFM video. I don’t know who did it, and I have publicly condemned it several times.
I will condemn it again, right here: the doxing of Jack Barnes and his family was wrong and a deeply shitty thing to do; whoever did it is a shithead and no friend of mine.
But Barnes is convinced one of my “cult followers” did the deed and bluntly warns me that ” I hold you personally responsible for this occurring.”
Even though I did not dox him, don’t know who doxed him, did not tell anyone to dox him, and have publicly denounced doxing in general and the doxing of Barnes and his family specifically.
The TwitLonger post declares:
You have crossed a line David. This is no longer about the MHRM vs feminism. This is no longer about AVFM, which I have no affiliation with, and your website. This is no longer about Paul Elam publisher of AVFM vs you as publisher of your website. You have made this personal. This is now about me vs you.
I don’t care that your little cult follower doxxed me. But when he/she doxxed my wife and little girl it became personal.
The author of the TwitLonger post, almost certainly Barnes himself, says that he will only come to Chicago for the promised “face to face in person discussion” if his family members come to harm.
But I do not have the luxury of seeing the threats as conditional ones. There are no conditions listed when he writes:
I don’t know of any parent that would blame me for stomping a mud hole in your fucking ass and walking that motherfucker dry for what you have done! Hell, I bet even Gondi would be like “he did what to you family? Fuck him up!
He is not saying that he would only be justified in “stomping a mud hole in [my] fucking ass” if something were to happen to his family; he is saying he is justified in doing so now.
Because some person who is not me, and who is unknown to me, did something I only found out about later and that I have publicly denounced.
And a possible “stomping” is not all I have to worry about: in his AVFM post, Barnes made sure I know that he
live[s] in a state with more guns than people, where a side arm is as common as a cell phone and where it is legal for 10yr olds to hunt with high powered rifles and without adult supervision.
So I can only assume that if he ever decides to pay me an unwanted visit he will be armed.
The author of the TwitLonger post — almost certainly Barnes — declares that his obvious threats against me are not in fact threats but “simply a statement of fact.” I think any reasonable person reading these posts would see them as clear threats, and I am treating them as such.
And it is plainly obvious to me that Barnes intends to terrorize me into silence with his threats — as his “promise” on AVFM that “for the rest of your life there will be nights you cry yourself to sleep” thinking about him makes abundantly clear. His threats are consistent with the threatening language he uses against feminists online, particularly on Twitter, which are clearly intended to shut his opponents up. As he put it in one notorious Tweet
https://twitter.com/Jackbarnesmra/status/559761561028669440
Adding to the surreality of this all, Barnes and his allies at A Voice for Men are so committed to their bizarre caricature of me as some kind of cartoon supervillain that they not only blame me for things I haven’t done but for not doing things that I have done. In this case, their eyes seem to have blurred over when they’ve come across the things I’ve written condemning the doxing.
In his AVFM post, Barnes wrote that while other feminists had denounced the doxing,
there was one person who has remain eerily silent about all this. That person is David Futrelle. Seems odd since all of this doxxing was done to avenge him. There is not a peep from Futrelle about this on his site or on social media anywhere that I could find. As a parent I know my kid is up to no good when she is quiet. Wonder if the same goes for adults (assuming the word applies)?
In fact, I had condemned the doxing two days earlier in a post that Barnes has publicly acknowledged reading.
On Twitter, AVFM’s “Chief Public Relations Officer” Suzy McCarley did Barnes one better, somehow managing to miss my denunciation of the doxing in a Tweet of mine that she was literally quoting at the time, leading to this rather surrealistic exchange:
It is almost as if they are so committed to seeing me as a monster that they cannot handle it when reality defies their expectations.
Another longtime AVFM supporter, so-called “Honey Badger” Hannah Wallen, has added a decidely Kafkaesque series of Tweets to the Twitter dogpile, including one that puzzled me greatly until she explained her “logic” in more detail:
Reading "If you X, I'll Y" as "I'm gonna Y!" = admitting to planning X. What have you planned to do, doxing Dave? https://t.co/93hT4Dlsaj
— Hannah Wallen | Professional Smartass (@Oneiorosgrip) November 9, 2015
Eventually, I was able to understand that she was taking my concern over Barnes’ threats … as proof that I was planning to harm his family.
She explained her “logic” in a blog post I discovered later. Utterly ignoring my denunciations of the doxing, and of doxing in general, she declared that if i didn’t immediately “admit”that my worries about Barnes’ threats were “a completely irrational overreaction to being held responsible for the effects of his dishonest shit stirring on his followers” I was essentially admitting that I was planning some sort of attack on Barnes’ family:
[H]is current response indicates .. that he intends for harm to come Jack’s family as a result of his shit stirring, that he DOES encourage his readers to engage in this type of behavior, and that he DOES intend for one or more of his readers to respond to his writing by engaging in violence against HIS political opponents.
After all, “If X, then Y” only infers Y on the condition of X… so responding to “If you X, then I’ll Y” as if the individual has only stated “I’m going to Y” is an admission that you’ve planned on X happening.
This, I have to admit, is pretty ingenious. Kafka would be proud.
But just in case anyone thinks there is anything to Wallen’s sophistry: I do not support doxing in general, and have made this clear on numerous occasions. I did not, do not, will not support the doxing of Jack Barnes or his family, nor do I have the slightest idea who did it. I do not “intend … for harm to come [to] Jack’s family” or to him. (Indeed, I don’t even know where they live; not only did I have nothing to do with the doxing of Barnes and his family, I didn’t even know about it until after the doxing tweets were deleted.) I do not support violence against my political opponents.
All of this is obvious to anyone who actually reads what I write on this blog without their perceptions distorted by MRA-induced prejudice or preconceptions.
That said, I will not apologize for taking Barnes’ threats seriously.
Nor will I apologize for exposing misogynistic Men’s Rights activists to the light of day — not by “shit stirring” or engaging in Wallen-esque sophistry, but by quoting their own words and reporting their real deeds.
And when people harass and threaten me — whether that’s Barnes, those at AVFM who have aided and abetted his threats, or anyone else — I will take every legal step I feel is necessary for my safety and the safety of others.
This post is one of those steps.
athveg34f: Let’s not go down that road. There have been way to many times that MRA’s have dismissed genuine harassment this way. We can acknowledge that they’ve been victimized while still saying that Barnes is a terrible person.
Barnes talks tough but his post reads like every other internet tough guy I’ve seen on the web. Invariably internet tough guys are all talk. Barnes will rant and rave, but ultimately, he won’t do anything.
This is old hat for JackBarnes he already threw a tantrum and accused several others of “doxxing” him on a website called Experience Project YEARS AGO, he also explicitly threatened various forms of violence and harassment to a few feminist members of Experience Project. (He denied they were actual threats. ) No proof of the doxxing ever existed and all people he accused repeatedly condemned doxxing. So this is a repeat performance from JackBarnesMRA (formerly known as KnightrunnerMRA,) and anyone with enough time can dig through the comment history on ExperienceProject.com to see what a fraud this accusation is.
Thank you, Mr. Futrelle, for your dedicated years of flipping over rocks and exposing the squirming filth underneath to the rest of the world. I’m continually astounded at the cognitive connections these people must repeatedly refuse to make in order to continue in their worldview, but that quotation of you actually denouncing doxxing is remarkable, even by MRA standards. Stay strong, and know that justice is on your side.
Pretty solid demo of their logic here, tbh, given that “If X then Y” in no way implies “If Y then X.” It’s actually a named logical fallacy (Affirming the Consequent, because all logical fallacies sound like Coheed and Cambria songs).
I just can’t even begin to see why someone would so obsessively argue that without thinking about it for a few seconds. I know there are more important, hurtful things going on here, but that really alarmed my mathematician brain.
I’m totally supporting you on this, David. Barnes has stepped way out of line because he apparently completely believes you’ve doxxed him somehow, and the fact that they’re ignoring you saying that it was shitty and you don’t condone it is both frustrating and hilarious.
If he believes you’ve doxxed him somehow, I’m in agreement with others: gather some evidence, Mr. Barnes. If you think that David, or someone else, has doxxed you, gather up the evidence, and send it to police. Make a fuss, get them to take care of it and find who’s responsible.
Of course, you won’t do that, because that advice comes from another proud feminist, who is happy you want to protect your family, but still thinks you’re a shitweasel because you proudly harass and attack feminists on the internet using terrorist tactics because you’d rather we just shut up instead of listen to anything we have to say.
Also adding support, this must be very stressful and I’m sorry that you’re going through this, but I admire what you’re doing. I find it almost humorously ironic that they’re accusing you of doxxing when you’ve condemned Internet harassment in general and drawn a very reasonable line between exposure of what people have already published and what needs to remain veiled. You absolutely could not have been clearer about that even in your own recent interactions with them – that Tweet is absolutely hilarious (but frustrating, too.)
And even though it’s not my right to do so, as a Tennessean, I’d just like to say ewww – not happy with his characterisation of my people and #NotAllTennesseans. Although I do know us well enough to say that you’re absolutely right to take this seriously.
Keep on keeping on, David.
And we’ll keep on being as feminist as we damn well please.
(That includes hoping that the witless Jack and his long-suffering family stay safe. Everyone should be safe. In Jack’s case, that also means staying where he is and Shutting Up Forever about threatening David or anyone else. Lacking the sense to know when he goes too far, he’ll get into more police/legal trouble than he can cope with if he continues like this. Shutting Up Forever is the best strategy for him and a great boon to the rest of the world.)
As for the non-feminist Hannah and Suzanne, my wish for them is that one day soon they become completely and totally aware of just how nasty, misguided and downright stupid they’ve become. They should wake anew every single morning to the sinking, guilty, ashamed feeling that they’ve done wrong and allowed themselves, willingly, to be misled by Elam and his ilk. Every morning for several months and a resolve to do better every afternoon followed by a good night’s sleep and a dreaded awakening. Katie will know when to let them off the hook.
Stay strong Dave. You do crucial work with this blog.
Dear David, I lend my words and voice in support of you. Keep safe and stay well, take appropriate legal action as your state allows.
To Mr Barnes you do not have go be like this, you have the ability to make the choice not to be this way. Take it from me Jack, I was once you. It’s a awful, difficult path to take, to look deeply at yourself and your behaviours and be accountable to yourself for the way if affects those nearest and dearest to.
I say this to you Jack because if you follow through with your rage and temper, egged on by those who do NOT have your best interests at heart. You will cause immense amount of emotional pain and suffering to those you desire to protect. Stop and think about the logical outcomes of your threats, you will get into a lot of trouble. Take time to care about your family and that your actions have outcomes that will not be nice for them.
Stop over reacting, calm down, you are making yourself a patsy to those you believe support you but once you act, they will disappear very quickly.
It’s a difficult thing to do, take it from me, I’ve lived your life Jack, I know the rage you feel and I’ve been very, very close to completing what your saying. Something always stopped me and it was knowing what the outcome would have on those closest to me. You may want to believe that they (your family and supporters) support your actions, but in the aftermath they will suffer far more than how you believe they could suffer if you took an alternative to what you feel you should do.
Jack, leave David alone, he is not the cause of your rage, your rage is stired up by the people who claim to be on your side. Calm down and stop, be still and quiet and let it be.
As a fellow feminist I am grateful for this honest mockery of the mra’s quoted dishcharge of rage, melodrama and pseudologic about females. Your ability to present this steaming mess with humor makes the content, well, tolerable to read.
I have been a regular reader of both your posts and the comments over the last three years so I can say I have not read any support from you or others for doxing, swatting or harassing members of the manoshpere under whatever collection of letters they use to designate themselves. Like others, I hope this barrage of threats and accusations fails to intimidate. Stay strong and keep petting the moggies.
MRA logic: One of us got doxxed by someone, who could be a feminist behaving badly, or a manospherian drumming up support, or some apolitical rando who merely has a personal vendetta against Barnes, or an 8channer who got bored and wanted to watch some fireworks. Since we don’t know for sure who it was, we can pin it on one guy we don’t like, and can threaten and harass him directly and personally as if he bragged about doing it.
Also MRA logic: Decrying doxxing doesn’t count if it happens before we write about you. Also, now that we’ve thrown those instances out, we are right to be mad at you for not decrying doxxing before we write about you.
Yet more MRA logic: People who say nice, supportive things to a guy we hate are clearly a breath away from SWATing us. They’ve practically done it already.
Such logix. Much human rights. Wow.
Best wishes to you David. I can’t believe how ridiculous this has got, it’s almost as if they haven’t read anything you’ve written at all.
I’m hoping that this plays out exactly as others have predicted – that this is all BS, that Jack will do fuck all apart from fling impotent threats around on Twitter and that his family will remain safe, because nobody gives enough of a damn about Jack Barnes to want to actually hurt him*.
Nevertheless, I wouldn’t want to wait for it to pan out that way without also having a contingency plan for an angry man with a gun scenario.
I doubt that Jack even knows where to find David, apart from “Chicago” which is a pretty big haystack in which to go looking for a needle. But on the offchance, David, I hope you’ve got the support of friends if you need to vacate your house for a short while.
I’m pretty sure Jack is afoul of several laws concerning threats, intent to harm, slander if he keeps insisting you’ve doxxed him, etc. If he’s going to make himself a problem to you, I’d call in Pest Control in the form of whatever lawyers, law enforcement, etc is available to you.
* I may be wrong here – has anyone been abusive to the Barnes’ family using the doxxed info so far? Or are Jack Barnes’ “enemies” actually decent human beings? He makes a big thing about “defending” his family, but neglects to mention any actual harm that they’ve received apart from the original doxxing, which is malicious in itself.
Love to David, Boo to Jack Barnes’ shitty behaviour, Boo to whoever thought doxxing people was an appropriate thing to do. I hope the real doxxer reveals themselves, and that Jack admits he was wrong to accuse you, but I can’t imagine that either of those things would be likely.
Be safe, David.
[comment about CPS deleted by DF]
@athveg34f
At this point I think it’s pretty obvious that’s exactly what happened. It was a coordinated plan that backfired spectacularly. They had obviously anticipated we would be applauding the doxing, and when that didn’t happen they decided to go along with the pre-planned strategy anyway, resulting in this massive failure we’ve seen play out over the last few days.
But to be clear, I also think it’s terrible for Jack Barnes to dox his own family, if that’s what happened, so it doesn’t really make any difference to our response whether the doxing was real or not. Doxing is still terrible, and it shouldn’t be done even to shitty people, not even if it’s the shitty people doing it to themselves.
I hope you’ve called the police on this nappystain of an alleged human being. I suspect he wouldn’t have a pasty white leg to stand on if it came to court.
Adding my support to David from a “third world” anti-colonialist peronist feminist!
You are one brave guy and I’m proud of you, and also a little worried so please stay stay safe.
Here’s an adorable yet not feline turtle duck, use it in case of emergency!
http://38.media.tumblr.com/e2f21633c0c5de329069a5932b70662b/tumblr_mgbzr90X611rraalgo1_1280.gif
@Joe – You said:
People are complicated.
For instance, one of my childhood neighbors was apparently rather high up (regionally) in the KKK*, but was just the most considerate neighbor (on our rural, all-white and very integrated Hispanic road), a doting father to his daughters, and openly wept when he failed to recussitate a neighbor’s young grandson who had wandered into some water.
Disagreement – even vehement, core-principles disagreement – is no basis for attacking someone’s family.
* We had no idea of his affiliation at the time – he didn’t fly the stars and bars or go about in full regalia, people aren’t caricatures. We found out later from his daughter who, when she discovered the truth, made as public a break from him as possible.
Dammit, sloppy blockquoting.
My response starts with
“Really? He seems like a garbage person, but he might be a very loving father.”
I’m just going to point this out: You know that whole recent internet drama between Laughing Witch and Thunderf00t?
OK, in overall structure this isn’t really any different, with Futrelle holding the position analogous to Thunderf00t. The main difference is instead of bad Yelp reviews, someone doxxed Jack Barnes and threatened his child, and did so expressly invoking Futrelle as a reason.
I hate to have to say it this way, but there are a lot of people who will get irrational and aggressive when someone threatens their children.
Likewise, when people are threatening children because of you, you might need to rethink your platform, your audience, or both.
@schadrach – Big difference:
TF was saying that LW deserved it / that these were the “consequences” to her actions…
…David’s saying no such thing and has, in fact, condemned this at every turn.
Also: TF is actually the person who posted LW’s information.
David didn’t even know about this until he was accused.
And, just to add – David’s does nothing but quote these people verbatim so we can mock them with like minds.
He documents.
I found this site because I was initially sympathetic to the MRM – their public face talks some good game on issues that do actually need to he addressed – but once I looked into them further, I saw the misogyny on display in their comments forums, read their actual internal talking points, and watched how they conversed amongst themselves, I recoiled.
This site provides an antidote to that awfulness, a place to say, “It’s not just me, right? This stuff really is as off the rails as I think, right?” and to laugh in relief.
(Sorry for the typos – on my phone in a rush.)