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Dear Paul Elam: Criticizing you is not equivalent to inciting murder

Paul Elam, alleged Human Rights Activist

So last night, shortly before going to bed, I decided to watch some dumb videos on YouTube to clear my head of all the manosphere nonsense I’d been reading about for much of the evening. Scrolling through my various Youtube subscriptions, I happened to notice one with a rather intriguing title:

David Futrelle: Trying to Get MHRAs Killed

It was a video by the self-described “Men’s Human Rights Activist” Paul Elam, who needs no introduction to readers of this blog. Happily, it turns out that only a portion of the hour and a half video was devoted to me; I found that segment of the video and watched — well, listened — to several minutes before I had to turn it off. (I’m not going to link to it.)

Apparently, Elam is convinced that, by writing critically about him and his colleagues, I am whipping up hatred towards the Men’s Rights movement.

His specific complaint: a day or two ago, someone apparently doxxed Elam’s colleague Jack Barnes on Twitter. Needless to say, I don’t support doxxing and I have no idea who did it; indeed, I only learned of it, last night, from Elam’s video.

But apparently Elam holds me personally responsible, because I wrote a post about Barnes a few days ago, a response to a post he did about me that was filled with ridiculous accusations and rather puerile attacks on my weight.

In Elam’s mind, evidently, when I point out the terrible things he and his colleagues say and do, I’m giving them a bad reputation and therefore “trying to get MHRA’s killed.”

Paul, do you want to know who is responsible for the bad reputation of Men’s Rights Activists? You are. Your allies at AVFM are. The Men’s Rights Activists who fill the internet with angry misogynistic screeds are.

Hell, you did more damage to the Men’s Rights movement with this two-minute video than I could do in a year.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, Paul, but most of what I do on this blog is to simply chronicle what you and other internet misogynists say. Sometimes I make jokes about it. Sometimes what you and your pals say is too horrifying to make jokes about.

Oh, and sometimes I post pictures and videos of cats.

You won’t find any threats, much less any incitements to violence, on my blog — except in the quotes of the people I write about.

And as long as you and other internet misogynists keep on saying terrible things, I will continue to point them out.

 

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Aura
Aura
4 years ago

I just want to say that I am extremely grateful for the work you do in wading through so much vileness to write this blog. Especially hoe you somehow manage to bring levity to the subject matter when possible/appropriate. Thank you David.

Falconer
4 years ago

@promisedlandpastor:

Two wrongs do not make a right. If we rejoice in the fact that Barnes was doxxed, we become MRAs in so doing. For what it is worth for any MRA reading this, I’m very sorry one of your comrades was made to feel threatened and unsafe by someone behaving reprehensibly. I hope that the perpetrator faves justice for it.

Plenty of other people have already said we aren’t rejoicing in the doxxing.

MRAs do a lot more than doxx people. They threaten women and they are really bad at biology.

I also hope that having the shoe on the other foot will cause MRA doxxers to think twice before hatefully doxxing women for supporting equality and feminism.

Sweet cinnamon roll too good, too pure for this earth.

Tizio
Tizio
4 years ago

TIL how misogynists think: if you aren’t a misogynist, you’re wrong.

Color me surprised. turns into Harlequin

cincin
cincin
4 years ago

everything flatpossum said, david!

James Haynes
4 years ago

criticizing-you-is-not-equivalent-to-inciting-murder

good thing too, imagine if movie criticism worked like that, watch out Micheal Bay is all i’m saying.

Arianna Higgins
4 years ago

This Paul Elam psycho seems to be losing it. I wonder what his official mental diagnosis is?

karalora
karalora
4 years ago

Arianna Higgins, we don’t do that around here. We don’t call people “crazy,” “psycho,” “nuts,” etc. and we don’t allude to psychiatric diagnosis. Mental illness does not cause misogyny or overall horribleness – a decision to be misogynistic and overall horrible causes these things.

kyla ball
kyla ball
4 years ago

Paul Elam has the emotional IQ of a twelve year old. Sometimes I wonder why we pay him any mind at all (as it seems a sort of validation of him), but then I remember all the hate filled garbage he spouts and how many young men actually take him seriously.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
4 years ago

Arianna Higgins:

His diagnosis is “sane.” That’s part of the problem.

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
4 years ago

The only way throwing beer on someone would be attempted murder is if that beer is made of acid, some cyanide that they don’t ingest or whatever while their face/whatever is being dissolved by the acid, and oh it can’t be beer either. Because nobody wants to drink beer that’s really a caustic chemical.

A Wolverine
A Wolverine
4 years ago

so the usual DOXXING IS BAD UNLESS WE DO IT from the scumbags.

Antisocialite
Antisocialite
4 years ago

There goes that MRA-projection again.

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
4 years ago

Arianna
Mentally ill people including me do not act like this.

kyla ball
“Paul Elam has the emotional IQ of a twelve year old”

people choose to act, it has nothing to do with age.

Ravn Thor
4 years ago

You’re really making them squirm just by telling the truth and repeating what they themselves have been saying. You’re doing a lot of really great work exposing it all. =) Keep it up!

Bazia
Bazia
4 years ago

I see that Barnes & Co are trying to blame you today (Sunday) for something you had nothing to do with. The viciousness and irrational thinking in the comments is typical. It must be hard to absorb these attacks caused by your success in calling out their hate. A lot of us are fully supporting you and appreciate what you’re doing very much. The KKK has the SPLC. AVFM has you and you do a great job. As for Barnes being doxxed, thisis a bad sign means AVFM’s main technique for harassing women is being adopted by others. We may be witnessing the start of an allout escalation. If I were doxxed I would dox the parties who did it. I understand why others may disagree, but that’s what I would do. Frankly I wouldn’t know what else to do, because I can’t think of any other way you could stop them increasing their doxxing.

DaveL
DaveL
4 years ago

Has there ever been a case of a feminist actually going off and killing MRAs? The reverse, of course, has been a regular occurrence, from the Ecole Polytechnique massacre to Roger Elliot.

freemage
4 years ago

DaveL: No, nothing similar*. I won’t say it will ‘never’ happen, because humanity has long ceased to surprise me in a negative fashion. But it would obviously be both an outlier and not a result of actual feminist rhetoric.

*: A few MRAs will try to insist the woman who shot Andy Warhol was doing it as an expression of feminist outrage, but really, it’s a pretty weaksauce complaint. It was a personal grudge, not a political statement.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

Also, it was 47 years ago and nobody died. The MRAs who try to BOTH SIDES!!!11 it always forget that part. =P

bowman
bowman
4 years ago

“Has there ever been a case of a feminist actually going off and killing MRAs? The reverse, of course, has been a regular occurrence, from the Ecole Polytechnique massacre to Roger Elliot.”

“People killed by feminists: 0.

People killed by MRAs: [I lost count several murder sprees ago].”

David, why do you allow abusive lies to be posted on your website and with no rebuke from you?

There are no MRA murder sprees, just ones feminists have LIED about being MRAs. There is literally ZERO evidence that elliot rodgers had even HEARD of MRAs let alone was an MRA himself.

His manifesto never mentioned “MRA” “mens rights rights” “MRM” “feminism” or anything to do with MRAs. He wasn’t subscribed to ANY MRA youtube channels.

He had bloody bugger all to do with MRA!

“Has there ever been a case of a feminist actually going off and killing MRAs? The reverse, of course, has been a regular occurrence, from the Ecole Polytechnique massacre to Roger Elliot.”

regular occurrence my arse! its never happened

what does the ecole polytehnique killings have to do with MRAs? the guy didn’t like feminism so that makes him an MRA?

katz
katz
4 years ago

David, why do you allow abusive lies to be posted on your website and with no rebuke from you?

Because if we didn’t allow MRAs to post, we’d never have any fun! *rimshot*

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

MRAs: Constantly whining that MRAs, PUAs, MGTOWs, incels and #GamerGaters are totes different you guys!!!1 despite having exactly zero practical differences, while simultaneously grouping any woman who thinks that sexism might exist after all in with radical feminism.

Bro, if you spent less time stomping your feet about NO TRUE MRA with your fingers in your ears and more time, y’know, speaking out against the violence in your silly little “Movement,” you wouldn’t have to stomp your feet about NO TRUE MRA with your fingers in yours ears. (But, of course, you’d have to be against the violence for that. And you’re not. No MRAPUAMGTOWWTFBBQ is. You’re only against having to face the well-deserved repercussions. Proof: The fact that you’re even here.)

weirwoodtreehugger
4 years ago

Okay. Anti feminists have killed many, many more people than feminists. Happy?

Whether or not any of these guys identified as MRAs isn’t so much the point. When misogynistic spree killers and MRAs have such identical views on women that they can be mistaken for MRAs, that should be a bigger concern to you than us calling them MRAs. It’s kind of like an Aryan Nation member getting mad at someone for calling Dylann Roof a Nazi.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

*Your ears, not “Yours ears.”

katz
katz
4 years ago

MRAs: Constantly whining that MRAs, PUAs, MGTOWs, incels and #GamerGaters are totes different you guys!!!1 despite having exactly zero practical differences, while simultaneously grouping any woman who thinks that sexism might exist after all in with radical feminism.

And the Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies have nothing to do with each other, despite having identical agendas, similar names, and similar methods.

littleknown
littleknown
4 years ago

I’m sure all of these peaceful people have absolutely nothing in common with MRAs like Paul Elam who host terrorist manifestos urging men to burn down courthouses.

Riiiiight.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
4 years ago

Oh, and they all post on the same sites, too. For just one example, if incels and PUAs and MRAs are as different as you claim, then why was Aaron Sleazy, self-proclaimed PUA “Guru,” both a mod on Rodger’s favourite incel forum PUAHate/SlutHate and an AVFM columnist?

kale
kale
4 years ago

Eliott Rogers frequented hate sites against women and literally talked about his hate towards women very explicitly. What more do you even need?! MRA style hate groups literally use his avatar and stuff when they troll, so its not like he was shunned by the slime. Many many male killers have been very clear sbout their misogyny even the Unabomber, the Columbine killers, hell the overused Hitler was anti-feminist despite thst Rush Limblaurgh “feminazi” crap. Hating women and feminism is very typical of male killers, particularly white cis hetero ones to be specific, a hate of privileged entitled people that is directed at an oppressed class. Which is basically what the MRAPUAETC phenomenon is. It would be MUCH more difficult to try to find a mass murderer who was truly feminist! Why do MRAs and bigots in general always resort to sounding like angry cartoon villians having tantrums? They will say things like “you LIAR!” but never can present real evidence or logic to support that shit. The fact that we dont care what sumb little infighting subgroup you all are in is because you all are very hard to tell apart to outsiders (read: logical, compassionate people who dont live in a privilege bubble and study social issues properly).

I think the Elams of the world are able to be so hypocritical because they really dont get the basic morality of how other people are people whose feelings matter. Doxxing isnt wrong in and of itself, only doxxing THEM is wrong because no one else matters, least of all women. (As grateful as I am to David and as horrific his treatment is, as he himself has mentioned, of he were a woman his life would be way more like Anita’s right now, there is just something sbout women that inspires a dramatic increase in harassment). They throw around allusions to murder and rape like its nothing because they care so little about real rape and murder victims. Their empatjy is blunted and their entitlement is high,

A note on circumcision, it does kill infants, albeit rarely in the U.S., and it is unnecessary mutilation. Doxxing those doctors is still wrong, and since on the internet basic morality is apparently not obvious and must be stated, it is wrong because it could get those docs killed and there is no “self defense” type logic to defend that when the doctors are doing their best to NOT harm the infants and it is only a rare mistake that causes harm. I just wanna put that out there because I dont think minimizing circumcision is a good thing, if you dont care about the (assigned) male infants themselves you could consider how a circumcision-permissive culture contributes to (the far more harmful) intersex infant mutilation and FGM.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
4 years ago

Eh, Kale, while I agree with 95% of what you said, I don’t think male circumcision being widely approved of contributes to either FGM or forced gender assignment. The former you could maybe make a case for, but the later…

At present, in the US, circumcision is the only surgery performed on non-consenting individuals that isn’t medically required. Except most surgeries on intersex babies aren’t required, it’s purely cosmetic. Putting circumscion under “only if necessary” prolly won’t change minds on whether “corrective” surgeries are actually necessary.

I’m under-caffeinated so I hope I’m making sense.

mousy
mousy
4 years ago

Kale

(read: logical, compassionate people who dont live in a privilege bubble and study social issues properly).

Tell them this, and you are a bigot…….I kept trying to explain to them why the men’s rights sub reddit is not a legitimate source, and they called me a bully/bigot :O I don’t think they realise that if we want we to play that game, then I get to use a feminist blog as evidence……both are opinions. They genuinely believe that by simply linking to the men’s rights sub reddit/avfm that they have discredited everything you have said……….but they are soo not a cult! They are also like screaming about social science and how it is isn’t science.

They seem particularly hateful right now, the whole thing is getting out of control. I am from the uk and they recently targeted feminsist MP Jess Phillips, and Jeremy Corbyn for daring to support her. Corbyn is a socialist – it was no surprise to me that the hateful messages aimed at them on twitter ect were 95% sargon and thunderft subscribers…I was shocked by the percentage when I looked on twitter. Considering that sargon loves making videos about the “radical left” and the “disease of the left”, you start to get an idea of what is going on. The men’s rights movement is hate group, It needs addressing.

Ian William Crerar
4 years ago

MRA logic: Criticizing MRAs = trying to get them killed. Sending feminists death threats = criticism.

dhag85
4 years ago

Remember, these people generally believe “feminism is crumbling/falling apart”, although at the same time they believe feminists run all the media and every government, so who the fuck knows.

Kale
Kale
4 years ago

@mousey
Getting a source from them is like pulling teeth. Then they link Breitbart. Then they demand I prove Bb is a known fraud. THEN they say the NYTimes is a liberal propaganda rag. then I stop trying to talk to them.

Kale
Kale
4 years ago

Also regarding harassment? Yea I was a target. I’ve been both threatened with rape, called too ugly to rape, called a tranny, imitated in an attempt to alienate me from my friends by painting me as one of the bigots I oppose. Notably when presume to be cis male they generally will just call me white knight I’m really small potatoes so that’s even more scary. It isn’t only happening to popular people. These people have no life apparently. They want to dominate commenting and they are winning because no one is moderating. People like me have to disengage and delete social media accounts for safety and sanity. However they rarely produce good original content whereas even sites like CollegeHumor are making smart feminist / anti-racist etc content. So in a bigger way they are losing.

Kale
Kale
4 years ago

Idk where my last comment went, the TL;DR is I was harassed online too

Kale
Kale
4 years ago

Argenti I am just now seeing your comment. I am trying I just not argue with strangers online, because people tend to completely ignore facts even when I post scientific studies and shit, so all I’m gonna say is that I stand by what so said.

Kale
Kale
4 years ago

So= I
I’m sure there are other typos, hard to see…
& seriously nothing personal just have found strangers online unpredictable, some people start nice but things go downhill when they feel they could be wrong. others end up being genuinely nice! & even right lol 😉

kfreed
kfreed
4 years ago

You’re on quite the “murder spree” there, Dave the Wingnut Slayer. First, white supremacist Paul Elam is shaking in his boots over fellow bed wetter Jack Barnes? Then white nationalist Judgybitch starts peeing in her loafers? (One can only hope she doesn’t off the mail carrier for fear of people showing up on the front porch.) She’s probably a shut-in with way too many cats. Meanwhile, Elam is busy scraping sweet professional victim GriftCoin from the bottom of the barrel and Barnes is off begging his mom to iron his pointy silk hat for the Saturday night hootenanny. None of these people could find their butt cracks if you drew them a map. For crusaders of white power they certainly are squirrelly. You’re obviously doing something right – they reek of desperation.

weirwoodtreehugger
4 years ago

She’s probably a shut-in with way too many cats.

I’m with you on the sentiment, but can you not do this? If someone is a shut in it’s usually because of a mental health issue, disability or being very elderly. Those aren’t people that deserved to be mocked and equated with feMRAs. Plus, what’s wrong with liking cats? Most of us here do, and the whole mocking women for liking cats thing is pretty tired. In fact, we get a lot of trolls in here trying to do that very thing to us.

kfreed
kfreed
4 years ago

Yikes. That video is something on the order of ‘The Hills Have Eyes’ with beer pong. I know I shouldn’t, but I simply couldn’t help but point it out. The Justin Bieber types parroting these old farts should get a load who they’re mimicking. That would put a stop to it in no time flat;) “Crap, my heroes are a raging Viagra commercial!”

kfreed
kfreed
4 years ago

Stop, weirwood. i don’t intend to have you edit my comments. I might also be disparaging cats and mail carriers. That’s a slippery slope down which I don’t intend to follow you.

kfreed
kfreed
4 years ago

P.S. weirwood: “If someone is a shut in” – they might also be a whacked out white nationalist with too much time on their hands. Judgybitch doesn’t look particularly elderly… just not right in the head. She’s probably considerably younger than I am, so I’m guessing you’re the one making it about age? As a grandma with very little patience for this nonsense, yours or the “men’s rights” nitwits’, I’ll say what I mean and mean what I say. You, too, might benefit from growing a thicker skin if you’re messing with white supremacists. They like nothing better than a perpetual victim.

weirwoodtreehugger
4 years ago

Okay. I was trying to be nice about it. But not anymore. Ableism is against the comments policy, linked at the top of the page.

If you don’t like it, you can fuck off.

AnAndrejaPejicBlog (@A_Pejic_Blog)

@weirwoodtreehugger

I’ve encountered kfreed before on Raw Story, where they were banned multiple times (at least twice for making threatening comments at me personally). Not a nice person at all.

dhag85
4 years ago

@kfreed

You’re only being asked to comply with the comment policy. People are trying to help you not get banned. When you double down, you’re almost certain to get the banhammer. Bye!

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
4 years ago

Kale — I understand completely the frustration of arguing online, and if you decide not to reply to this, that’s totally cool, no hard feelings, I’m not gonna judge if you’d rather go have tea 🙂

But if you’re up for it, I am genuinely curious about studies linking the various forms of genital mutilation. I switched from sociology to psychology as a major, and if you don’t want to educate me, well, that’s really not something I can judge you for, going all EDUCATE ME NOW is an asshole move, but if you have anything handy, I promise not to get defensive about being challenged. When I said I agreed with most of what you said, I didn’t mean you were necessary wrong about the rest!

In other things, is suspect your comment about being harassed went into the mod filter cuz you said tr*nny, and the filter isn’t smart enough to read the context. That said, I am terribly sorry you face that harassment, that’s fucked up shit no one should ever have to take. I do hope you are right that in the grand scheme of things, they’re losing, because holy hell is reading comments anywhere else a nightmare, moderating out the filth is too much to ask? Grand, then go somewhere else. Aka here, cuz here is the only place I trust the comments and commenters to hold a solid no bigotry policy.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
4 years ago

Oh FFS kfreed, you’re a grandmother and don’t see how “shut in with too many cats” is used to insult women like you, to say that older women must be “the crazy cat lady” (or the ever polite granny who would never step on anyone’s toes, but expressing an opinion? Cat lady)… I don’t even.

Seriously, comment policy, follow it.