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#gamergate hypocrisy irony alert reddit

#Gamergaters applaud hiring of fake gamer as Breitbart Tech editor

Milo Yiannopoulos, not playing video games, possibly auditioning for The Cure
Milo Yiannopoulos, not playing video games, possibly auditioning for The Cure

So right-wing garbage site Breitbart has apparently decided to pander to the angry gamer demo even more explicitly with the launch of Breitbart Tech,  “a brand new vertical dedicated to coverage of tech, gaming, and web culture.” Naturally, they’ve tapped the unlovely and ungracious Milo Yiannopoulos, Gamergate panderer par excellence, for editor.

Yesterday Milo went to the KotakuInAction subreddit, one of Gamergate’s main hubs, to announce the good news.

One Puckish Redditor gave Milo a little pop quiz to test his knowledge of technology and gaming. Milo, well, failed it.

HBlight 314 points 19 hours ago  Can you, offhand, name your specs for your pc? What model phone do you use? What do you think makes it good? Same question for a tablet if you have one? Complete the following phrase: "It's not a big truck, " Who is Linus Torvalds? Why is 60fps better for gaming even if 24 is perfectly fine for movies? If you can't answer these questions, do you plan to hire those who can? Plenty of "tech" writers out there who just use technology a lot. I'm just wondering if you are willing to get more into the culture of tech beyond this culture war in tech. :P permalinkembedsavereportgive goldreply [–]yiannopoulos_mActual Yiannopoulos, and a pretty big deal ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)[S] 181 points 18 hours ago  I can see I still have much to learn.

One might presume that such an obvious fake gamer would quickly be hounded from the business by an angry Gamergate mob.

But, nah, someone explained all the answers to Milo and the regulars went on celebrating Milo’s new gig.

Because it’s all about ethics in knowing absolutely nothing about video games.

H/T — r/ShitRedditSays

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Virtually Out of Touch
Virtually Out of Touch
5 years ago

There’s some “christian discipline” websites where they are revealing in spanking wives and they have a whole routine and philosophy laid out. They make clear it has nothing to do with BDSM but I think its just these weird christians using it as excuse to get sexually off without claiming “BDSM” but kink is outlawed in their religion.

Virtually Out of Touch
Virtually Out of Touch
5 years ago

“excuse to get sexually off without claiming “BDSM” but kink is outlawed in their religion.” BECAUSE kink is outlawed in their religion, I meant. And “revealing” should be “revelling”

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

Ehm, or it might be an extension of other anti-woman themes *some* religious people see as keeping the patriarchy in place in the name of purity.

I’m talking about scenes where people meet up because they share a mutual sexual fetish and both know and enjoy this. But you knew that didn’t you?

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

M, I’m not going to echo your call for Virtually Out Of Touch to be banned, because I think she’s at least engaging in good faith and banhammering should be reserved for those who’re worse. However I acknowledge my privilege in saying this, and so am happy to listen to others if they feel she’s a detriment.

@Virtually:

A few times perhaps not, but consistently over years, it is. Ask the doctors who are dealing with young and younger people coming in with stretched out this, prolapsed that. Or better yet, ask the people dealing with these health issues directly, like I did.

I’ll repeat myself: this is a homophobic slur. Accusations of anal sex being unnatural and unhealthy are nothing new, and have been thrown at gay men for a long time; this is just the latest incarnation.

That hole is entirely capable of handling things going in, because it’s capable of handling things equally big coming out. It’s a muscle: muscles don’t become weaker through being used.

Sex “negative” feminism? What does that mean?

Here’s a moderate position advocated by the great Heina Dadabhoy, attacking the lived reality of sex positivity rather than its idealised form:

http://skepchick.org/2013/07/sex-negative/

(I agree utterly with what Heina says there, by the way.)

Here is a more hardline position, attacking the ideal form of sex positivity:

https://radtransfem.wordpress.com/2012/02/29/the-ethical-prude-imagining-an-authentic-sex-negative-feminism/

(As a straight man it’s not my place to agree or disagree with this position.)

Genuine kinksters may gravitate toward more male submissives but the vast majority of people are mainstream and the mainstream push is for women to be the subs, hello 50 Shades of B.S. and online porn where the default is women being subbed and degraded and this is what kids are exposed to today.

Here’s where you lose me.

I think you are conflating, as Orion said, two different things: kinky people being kinky with one another, and BDSM-flavoured pornography which is aimed at a non-kink audience.

Do you have a quarrel with the first group (in which I include myself, and in which I know a number of excellent people, including a lot of badass feminist women)? If not, I would like to ask you to use language which is not condemnatory of us, because right now that’s exactly what you’re doing and it’s irritating.

As for the second group, yes, I agree that there’s a problem with BDSM being used as flavour of the month to sell straight pornography, whether it be romanticised abuse like 50 Shades or non-romanticised abuse like a lot of pornographic images and movies. If I could wave a magic wand to get rid of all this shit, believe me, my hands would be a motion blur.

However.

Just as there is an issue with lesbian pornography (not the straight stuff, but authentic lesbian content by women for women) being consumed by a straight male audience who appropriate its content for a patriarchal society, there is also an issue with BDSM pornography which is created by kinksters for kinksters being consumed by a mainstream audience who appropriate its content for patriarchy. As such, one is caught in a bind: you cannot reasonably ask us not to make porn for one another, but you can’t stop that stuff going mainstream either. It’s a difficult position.

Like I said, if your position is that vanilla appropriation of authentic kinky stuff is a problem, I agree. On the other hand, if your position is that all kinky stuff is problematic because of the culture in which it takes place, I agree with the sentiment but disagree with the conclusion. If your position is that kink is inherently wrong full stop, then fuck you.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@Leda Atomica:

Anyone more knowing about the BDSM scene care to enlighten?

Happy to, if you don’t mind my white-boy ranting?

alaisvex
alaisvex
5 years ago

@EJ,

I get what you’re saying about bdsm, but it seems like it’s a very different way of fetishizing power. Mainly because it’s not about violating boundaries and does require carefully set boundaries beforehand.

@Virtually,
I didn’t bring up that story to demonize kink or anal. I brought it up because it was about a man who thought that it was acceptable to dictate how his wife should style herself and complain about her enforcing boundaries. The fact that she was frequently and happily satisfying most of his other sexual desires (including anal sex) and that that wasn’t good enough for him suggests that what he wasn’t satisfied with getting piv or anal from someone who didn’t hate those acts and that he wanted to let her do the things that he knew that she hated. It wasn’t really about the physical acts themselves; it was about wanting to wear her down into doing something that she didn’t like.

Orion
5 years ago

Leda,

Yes and no.

The BDSM scene (by which I mean clubs, private parties, and networking websites) is not “about” women beings submissive to men in that there is a lot else going on. There are tons of submissive men. There are also tons of women playing with women and with other genders. About the only thing you don’t commonly see is cis men playing with cis men.

But if you look at the subsection of kinksters who are heterosexuals in female submissive relationships, you find both sensible feminists, but also unreconstructed patriarchs, or people who profess to believe in political equality but insist that female submission is human nature.

Snowberry
Snowberry
5 years ago

@VOoT:

A few times perhaps not, but consistently over years, it is. Ask the doctors who are dealing with young and younger people coming in with stretched out this, prolapsed that.

That sounded like BS, so I tried looking around. So far I’ve found the following: 1. Prolapsed rectums are most commonly encountered on children under the age of 6, no cause given that I’ve seen so far. Most likely a birth defect. I assume that if I’m wrong about that and penetration was involved, it most likely would have been the result of child rape. 2. There is an exotic porn thing which I’ve never heard of called “rosebudding” which involves inducing a temporary, partial prolapse, and this is supposedly very dangerous. Don’t know how it works, really don’t care to know. 3. Came across a few conservative blogs which were all “gay sex causes prolapsed anuses hurr durr” without providing any links or proof. I’m still thinking it’s BS.

@Leda Atomica: I’m not fully steeped in BDSM culture, but I’ve been to some events. There are Male Doms with female subs. There are Female Dommes with male subs. There are Female Dommes with female subs. I hardly saw any M/m Dom/sub pairings, but I’ve been told that gay men into BDSM don’t usually mix with the straights and have their own things. I’ve even seen pre-op/non-op trans people with whoever. There are also switches, who take turns with the different roles. And sometimes you can’t even tell which one is the Dom(me) and which is the sub… people would probably think my boyfriend is the Dom at first glance if they saw us engaging in BDSM play because he’s the one doing things to me (i.e. the “top”), but I’m the one in charge of the relationship. And on top of that, not all people engage in the S&M portion of BDSM.

So no, I’m pretty sure that in terms of actual experiences of actual practitioners, it’s not about “women as a submissive punching bag”. If anything, it’s somewhat more egalitarian than society as a whole. At least if you consider the choice to be dominant or submissive to another, and other people’s respecting that choice, to be a form of equality.

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

@Orion
Thanks for the reply! I would of course assume there are sub genres of sub genres, people are hardly ever homogenous within any named group. More the reason to not be negative about a consept that isn’t inherently negative. Although I think Virtually was hinting a differing opinion about it being inherently negative? I don’t want to put words in anyones mouth so correct me if I misunderstood, V.

@EJ
Have at it! I’m interested in any insight. It would be most marvellous of you.

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

Oh, and thank you @Snowberry! Posted without refreshing page, ooops.

Orion
5 years ago

Snowberry,

So no, I’m pretty sure that in terms of actual experiences of actual practitioners, it’s not about “women as a submissive punching bag”. If anything, it’s somewhat more egalitarian than society as a whole.

Perhaps my own experiences (or rather, those of my friends) have made me unduly cynical, but I’m not so sanguine about this.

If I could back up a step from replying to you specifically, let me frame it like this: the existence of male submissives, or a discussion of what the BDSM scene overall is about, is kind of a red herring. When radfems and the like say “BDSM is bad/is abuse/is incompatible with liberation,” I think we could paraphrase this as something like “for women to do BDSM is a ‘submissive’ role is to accept abuse or the likelihood of abuse, and actually is submission to patriarchy even if they delude themselves that the submission is not ‘real.'” That’s an important claim that has to be taken seriously, and pointing out that other configurations exist doesn’t make it go away.

So to get back to talking about lived experiences, I’ll say this. BDSM is supposed to be all about choice, consent, and respect for boundaries, but so is regular sex. Both in and out of the scene, the reality falls short. I know so many submissive women in the scene who get pressured or bullied into doing things they didn’t want to do. Women in “vanilla” relationships have the same problems, of course. But on the basis of my own anecdotal observations, I’m inclined to believe that the BDSM scene is no kinder to submissive women than the vanilla world and possibly even a little worse.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@Leda:
As you will.

BDSM grew out of the conflation of two scenes, the gay leather S&M scene and the straight femdom B&D prostitution scene, neither of which matter nowadays because the internet happened and swept all the Old Guard stuff away. (A lot of gay leather people are pissed about that, incidentally, and see it as appropriation of their space and crowding them out. They’re not wrong, but… bleh. The politics of Old Guard could be another handful of essays unto itself.) In the modern world what you have is a melange of many different people who come to the scene with different motives and for different reasons. Because most people are straight, most people on the scene are straight, although gay, bisexual and trans* people are disproportionately common.

In my experience, one of the issues that makes it hard to answer your question simply is that the same act can be interpreted very differently by different people. For example if I go to a club leading a friend on a collar and leash, then we would understand it as a deliberate use of power dynamics within a relationship in which we both got off on that sort of thing but were nonetheless consenting equals. Right next to us, however, a person might see us and think “right on, brother, all women are animals, I’m glad you’ve shown that bitch her place”, and another person might think “he must be amazing for her to let him do that to her, I bet he makes six figures and buys her all the shoes she wants.” These people might even engage in play together, each getting their own different thing out of it; and there’s a whole body of community etiquette which moderates that.

For that reason, it’s difficult to say “the scene is about X.” Even if it’s an act that two different couples do, they almost certainly mean different things by it.

Statistically, most people in the scene are submissive straight men. Unfortunately dominant straight women are the rarest, and can often charge for their services for that reason. Submissive straight women are more common than dominant straight men, however these numbers are reversed by the large number of non-kinky men who come into the scene in the patriarchal perception that it’s an easy way to score a freaky chick. We fucking hate those people, not least because they create a woman-hostile atmosphere which further upsets the numbers, but it is a thing and it does happen.

Harassment is, sadly, an issue; and a lot of people draw precisely the wrong lessons from it.

Because of this and other factors, yes, most of the couples one sees at events and parties are male dominant/ female submissive. It’s my suspicion that these sorts of couples are actually even more common when you factor in the people who pop up, find a mutually-agreeably kinky partner, then disappear again to live quiet happy kinky lives and never interact with the wider scene, content in their own monogamous bliss. However, I have no statistics to back up this hunch.

On the other hand, especially in bigger cities, one tends to see the scene fragment. There are female dominant parties, male dominant parties, gay events, female-only events, rope events, et cetera. (Rope in particular has a reputation for being something of a cult – people discover it and disappear off into that social circle, never to be seen again.) Therefore, it’s entirely possible that someone may go through the scene and go to lots of parties and so on, while only seeing one part of it. If they come out saying “the scene is about X” then that was genuinely their lived experience and I will not contradict it, but it’s kind of like the metaphor of the blind people and the elephant.

Finally, in my city there are a lot of people in their early to mid 20s in the scene who are less kinky and more into the promiscuity and wild experimental sex aspects. In previous decades they would probably have attached themselves to a different subculture and adopted its trappings. Fortunately, these people bring a very tumblr-style set of gender politics to the scene in which patriarchal assumptions are responded to with dismissive laughter at best.

Does that answer the question? Sorry if I went on wayyyy too long.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

So to get back to talking about lived experiences, I’ll say this. BDSM is supposed to be all about choice, consent, and respect for boundaries, but so is regular sex. Both in and out of the scene, the reality falls short. I know so many submissive women in the scene who get pressured or bullied into doing things they didn’t want to do. Women in “vanilla” relationships have the same problems, of course. But on the basis of my own anecdotal observations, I’m inclined to believe that the BDSM scene is no kinder to submissive women than the vanilla world and possibly even a little worse.

This is also my experience.

Snowberry
Snowberry
5 years ago

@Orion: Maybe it varies from region to region? Or even if my experience is highly atypical, I wouldn’t consider that to be a very valid view. It’s not too far removed from the kind of argument where “women cannot meaningfully consent to sex with men because patriarchy”. That was rejected by most 2nd-wave feminists and is even less accepted now.

Orion
5 years ago

Content Note: description of the content of violent pornography

EJ

In my experience, the bulk of people on the scene are straight male submissives; I’d expect any [porn] made for their consumption to be female-dominant, and therefore would assume that the male-dominant stuff is made for the consumption of a non-kinky audience.

I’m not so sure. There’s lots of female-submissive stuff marketed as “fetish” or “kink” porn. In some cases it’s produced by the same people as the fem-dom videos. Kink.com, for instance, has a mix of everything. People in the scene definitely do consume it — I know several submissive women who watch fetish porn (or found the scene via fetish porn) and some dominant male kinksters also. Now, there are lots of men who aren’t involved in BDSM who enjoy having power over women; it’s possible that these men are the primary market for “fetish” porn, but I kind of doubt it. In my very limited exposure to fetish porn, I got the impression that it tended to focus on things your standard male chauvinist would probably find repulsive, like machinery, gags, suspensions, rubber, urine, and the like. (I could be mistaken; I myself find all those things repulsive, so I didn’t investigate much) I would guess that the films marketed as “BDSM” or “fetish” porn probably are consumed mainly by the kinky.

Now, I happen to know the documentary VooT’s link cited (The Price of Pleasure); although it’s commonly invoked in anti-BDSM posts, it’s not about “bdsm/fetish” porn at all. It’s actually primarily about what is sometimes called “gonzo” porn (although most websites don’t have a “gonzo” category, so this stuff is just spread everywhere). Gonzo porn (as you may already know) is the “extreme” stuff with lots of anal and gagging, and sometimes multiple penetration, abusive language, spanking, choking, etc., etc. Gonzo pornography certainly *is* all about male dominance and male power, but as far as I know it’s *not* a product of or closely connected to the BDSM scene.

Because most people are straight, most people on the scene are straight, although gay, bisexual and trans* people are disproportionately common.

It’s funny how things vary from region to region. I’m passingly familiar with the scenes in a couple of American cities, and while I too have seen most non-straight sexualities well-represented, I’ve actually found male homosexuals to be distinctly uncommon. Gay kinksters seem to have decided that it’s easier to find a kinky man in the gay scene than a gay man in the kink scene, so they tend to stick to their own.

occasional reader
occasional reader
5 years ago

Hello.

About the blue hair, i do not really understand why they have a problem with it. Having being raised among old TV animes including characters with a rainbowick panel of hair colors, i never have been surprised, and even less shocked, by persons dying their hair with this kind of color (which does not mean i always find it charming). Mind you, if searchers find, one day, a way to make the specific gene which control the color to the hair encoding other colors than the traditionnal ones, maybe, it may be fun.
I wonder how the gamer community will react if, in a future episode, Lara Croft dyes her hair in blue. Burn at stake ?

Have a nice day.

dhag85
5 years ago

@occasional reader

If GamerGate has taught me anything it’s that fictional women, created by men, may have agency. Actual women may not.

Tessa
Tessa
5 years ago

dhag85:
More accurately. They recognize that said fictional women don’t have agency and its their creators that do. They want the same control of real women as they do fictional.

mockingbird
mockingbird
5 years ago

*warning for continuing discussion of kink – I know that not everyone wants to read about this topic*

“Gay kinksters seem to have decided that it’s easier to find a kinky man in the gay scene than a gay man in the kink scene, so they tend to stick to their own.”

I’d also imagine that it gets tiresome for gay people to have to swat away offers from bi-curious couples. I could imagine that you’d have more people in a city’s kink scene more willing to explore in general than not.

I know some of my (very monogamous) lesbian friends complain about offers from random “straight” couples. I’m unsure if / to what extent it extends to gay guys.
(I’ve just had more sex life convos / gripe sessions with lesbian friends than with gay or bi guy friends – maybe it’s more of a homosocial bonding thing for me than hetero.)

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@Orion:

I’m not so sure. There’s lots of female-submissive stuff marketed as “fetish” or “kink” porn. In some cases it’s produced by the same people as the fem-dom videos. Kink.com, for instance, has a mix of everything. People in the scene definitely do consume it — I know several submissive women who watch fetish porn (or found the scene via fetish porn) and some dominant male kinksters also. Now, there are lots of men who aren’t involved in BDSM who enjoy having power over women; it’s possible that these men are the primary market for “fetish” porn, but I kind of doubt it. In my very limited exposure to fetish porn, I got the impression that it tended to focus on things your standard male chauvinist would probably find repulsive, like machinery, gags, suspensions, rubber, urine, and the like. (I could be mistaken; I myself find all those things repulsive, so I didn’t investigate much) I would guess that the films marketed as “BDSM” or “fetish” porn probably are consumed mainly by the kinky.

That’s an interesting point.

I agree that kink people watch kink porn (including kinky women), and my apologies if it sounded like I suggested that they didn’t. However, since vanilla people massively outnumber us and many aspects of the scene end up getting appropriated by vanilla people to suit their own needs, it is my belief that most kink porn is made for the consumption of the vanilla people because that’s where the market is.

I think we disagree here: if I’m right then the male-dom stuff is made for a non-kinky audience who are less put off by the fetish aspects than you suppose; if you’re right then the kink scene (or the people who are sitting at home wishing there was a scene in their town / they were socially able to be part of it) skews far more male-dom than I’d supposed; or it could be the chudwahs ruining everything again.

Now, I happen to know the documentary VooT’s link cited (The Price of Pleasure); although it’s commonly invoked in anti-BDSM posts, it’s not about “bdsm/fetish” porn at all. It’s actually primarily about what is sometimes called “gonzo” porn (although most websites don’t have a “gonzo” category, so this stuff is just spread everywhere).

Ah, thanks for that clarification. I entirely agree with the sex-negative people when it comes to gonzo porn. That stuff is genuinely horrible and speaks poorly of the society that produces and consumes it. I was happy when Max Hardcore went to prison and hope that more of the producers join him there.

I haven’t seen that documentary. I’ll see if I can track it down.

It’s funny how things vary from region to region. I’m passingly familiar with the scenes in a couple of American cities, and while I too have seen most non-straight sexualities well-represented, I’ve actually found male homosexuals to be distinctly uncommon. Gay kinksters seem to have decided that it’s easier to find a kinky man in the gay scene than a gay man in the kink scene, so they tend to stick to their own.

It might be a transatlantic thing, or just that my city has a very old, large gay community whose roots in the scene are sunk deep enough to be viable even today. I’d be interested to hear about what San Francisco is like, if you’re familiar with it: as one of the gay world’s cities of pilgrimage, I’d be surprised if it didn’t have a strong gay kink scene (although that scene may not overlap with the straight one.)

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Sorry, left out this sentence midway through (that’ll teach me not to write non-procedurally):

“I wonder how we would go about getting the data to resolve our disagreement?”

Falconer
5 years ago

@Leda Atomica:

Thank you for the insight to the way society can affect a man’s view of himself (and women), Falconer.

AAAAHHH NO I DON’T HAVE INSIGHTS I HAVE PRIVILEGES All I know is what I’ve read on the Internet, but thank you very much!

(Crossing my fingers and hoping that if you meant “fuck off, Falconer,” you’d have said “fuck off, Falconer.”)

Dodom
Dodom
5 years ago

My experience with BDSM was that anal is an obligation. I don’t get off on vanilla, but I entirely quit kink, finding a dominant guy that doesn’t think domming means vanilla sex plus fingers in butt was too hard. (or weirdly arching their back while humping and grunting “you like that rough huh” because apparently that arched back position feels rough to them – that just felt stupid)

Luzbelitx
5 years ago

Hey, I’m really enjoying all this BDSM stuff! I haven’t participated in my local scene for a while, but I see my experiences reflect those of EJ and Orion.

I agree the is no “one way” of feeling/experiencing BDSM and it’s mostly influenced by whatever worldview we have before we practice it.

As for communities being egalitarian -or not- my experience is, yes they are somewhat more egalitarian (at least the ones I’ve participated in) but not in an obvious way.

I actually became a self-defined feminist because of the exchanges going on in that community, because I’ve never met such vocal feminists… AND anti-feminists.

I realized with time, that old straigh dom dudes feelt extremely threatened by the slightly more diverse community than they are used to, so they -being MRA leaning from the begnning- take more and more radical positions, which are ignored or shrugged off by most people, even when being overtly aggressive or bigoted.

So it os a hostiler environment for women and feminists, but at the same time it offers more opportunities out of the trap, because feminists participate nonetheless and many of us are respected members of the community (especially feminist old straight men -go figure). And the effect of our presence is visible as well.

I guess a random youbg woman would have more chances of being mistreated in BDSM, either by ther partner and the community, mostly emotionally, but they also would have better chances to find people who can help, and to find an explanation of their feelings outside the traditional patriarchal narrative.

I’m not sure this evens things out. It’s complicated.

I think the worst mistake of seeing BDSM through a sex-negative lens is that we miss the oportunity to find out a hell lot of things, contradictory things, that are going on all at the same time in BDSM communities.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

porn is driving this anal sex craze. even if i were a gay dude my erotic repetoire would not include it. just too many risks. adult diaper sales have sky rocketed amongst the NON-elderly for a reason.

Um.

While you’re probably right about porn driving the demand for anal sex, particularly among teens (and this IS a concern, because we’re talking unrealistic expectations among the very young and inexperienced, not to mention a huge distortion caused by purity culture), the adult-diaper thing is way off. I know oodles of gay guys, and none of them are in diapers, even though pretty much all of them have done butt stuff at some point, if they’re not doing it on the regular (and have been for many years). The anal sphincter, like the vagina, is made of muscle. It doesn’t stay stretched. It bounces back. If this were a serious issue among them, don’t you think they’d issue a public health warning about it, as they did about unprotected sex and AIDS? Yet, oddly, there is none. Hmmm. What does that tell you?

My concerns about getting the poops during butt stuff are a slightly different matter — IBS is triggered by certain foods (such as legumes, very hot peppers, or anything with a lot of fibre). Mine also acts up when my period is at its crampiest. And I suspect it can also be triggered by penetration, which is why I don’t want to risk that. I’m not, however, afraid of ending up permanently in diapers, and I think that concern is way overblown, not to mention way silly. (And yes, more than a little homophobic, so cut that out.)

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Wow. That’s, um, something of a human case of irritable bowel syndrome you were dating there. Merely the act of *having* boundaries, to some people, seems to be an invitation to violate them.

I hope he was nonetheless a lovely guy who made you happy whilst you were dating and who made you laugh despite that behaviour in bed.

Oh, he was…and did, for a while. But yeah. He didn’t understand that boundaries are not about a “lack of trust”, as he often kvetched. And when I countered that he was being extremely inconsiderate, he didn’t seem to pony that at all. Which, again, is something I blame the culture for. Guys are constantly being told to “get” whatever they can from girls, whether the girls want to “give” it to them or not. It doesn’t matter what act it is; what matters is that there’s pressure involved, and the pressure is of a sexist nature. It does not work both ways. Whenever I wanted to have sex with a guy, and said so, and he freaked and dumped me, I did not chase after him. I let him go. And therein, I think, lies a huge difference. Girls are not taught to persist, and pester, and make a guy’s life miserable over a sexual demand. We are taught, rather, to either resist or give in, but make no demands of our own.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Guys are constantly being told to “get” whatever they can from girls, whether the girls want to “give” it to them or not. It doesn’t matter what act it is; what matters is that there’s pressure involved, and the pressure is of a sexist nature.

This is the truest thing I’ve heard all day.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

On a Finnish language forum there’s this regular troll who complains about short hair and *any* dyed hair, but especially when it’s dyed red or black (very common choices in finland). He also starts about ten threads a day asking why women knowingly make themselves ruined meat by getting a tattoo. I have gotten the sense he is an ‘older’ man, judging by the language he uses. Tattoos and short hair have been linked to rebellion. It’s a sign that this is a woman who doesn’t like to be told what to do, which is a massive threat to an insecure man who is conditioned to believe his ‘masculinity’ is the most important thing in the world (and that masculinity = power over others and other toxic notions). This same troll finds it “very unattractive” – of course, how can you be attracted to what you fear? Also he feels calling it unattractive should be reacted to by immediately growing out long, natural locks and lasering that tattoo ASAP. Because he has been taught that it’s a woman’s job to serve his preferences, especially in attractiveness. He genuinely believes it’s the proper tactic to get results.

Ugh, what is it about these older guys thinking that younger women must be eager to serve their whims? Most women (of whatever age) are pointing and laughing at guys like this, and for good reason: There are younger, cuter, more open-minded guys out there, who are a lot more fun to be with, and who don’t necessarily expect such subservience from a woman!

And the fact that this old guy is so obsessed with it that he harps on it constantly (ten threads A DAY? OY!) just makes him all the more sadly ridiculous. How do you say “Nobody cares about your stupid boner” in Finnish?

(I’m also chuckling because short hair tends to be more of an older-lady thing, at least in my neck of the woods…and because until fairly recently, so was blue hair. There was a blue rinse for grey hair that had a dull yellow tinge, designed to neutralize the yellow and make it more silvery. Maybe the old troll is worried about the “granny chic” trend in hairdressing?)

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Mockingbird,
I’m straight and even I’ve gotten an unwelcome offer for a threesome with a hetero couple. I can’t even imagine how often queer women are subjected to that.

Not to mention creepers who think a dick pic will turn lesbians straight. Although I expect that’s less about hoping to turn lesbians and more about entitled anger that there are women with agency turning down the d altogether.

Viscaria
Viscaria
5 years ago

One of the very first people I came out to, my friend for years who knew that I was a virgin*, said “oh great, that’s fantastic! I’ve been trying to get my girlfriend to agree to a threesome and she probably will if it’s with you!” A++ would share intensely confusing and personal information again.

*in terms of how virginity was understood by my peers and me at the time

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

One of the things that took me an embarrassingly long while to learn, but which I’m now surprised that I couldn’t see immediately, was that if someone eventually agrees to do something following prolonged badgering then that’s not the same thing as them consenting to it.

Unfortunately, this is a lesson which doesn’t seem to have wider traction, and which people simply don’t seem to understand at all outside of the bedroom.

freemage
5 years ago

As an analogy for EJ’s point about most kink porn being deliberately made with a vanilla audience in mind, consider rap music–the most commercial stuff out there is deliberately made to appeal to the prejudices of the white young adult male who lives in the suburbs–because that’s where the money is. So lots of misogyny, stereotypical portrayals of ‘the Hood’, and so on. Meanwhile, you have to have some knowledge of rap and hip-hop to find the good stuff–the social and political battle-cries, the more realistic life-stories.

And I can guarantee you that the middle-class white college demographic has had an impact on anime, as much as any aspect of Japanese culture.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Since the subject of homophobia was brought up…

I found this gem (NSFW) via tumblr yesterday. Apparently there’s a group of male individuals involved in the Orthodox Church who have decided to battle homophobia by posing for tasteful nude calendars that come in both “artfully censored” and “X-Rated” versions.

Not gonna lie, while I was busy fanning myself because I could feel the heat of hell itself creeping up on me, I actually found these to be rather beautifully done. They’re very tasteful, well-lit, and just all around works of art.

Especially December of this year’s calendar. (Oh, and you can order prints of individual months too.)

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

@Falconer

Admittedly my insults can be sideways sometimes, but I promise you I was being sincere. 😉

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

@Bina

“And the fact that this old guy is so obsessed with it that he harps on it constantly (ten threads A DAY? OY!) just makes him all the more sadly ridiculous.”

Tip. Of. The. Iceberg. Before diving into the scary world of Roosh, Paul and other friends I swear I thought I’d heard it all.
Other favourite topics (also deserving of multiple posts per day): “Finnish women are uglier than estonian/swedish/russian (etc.)”, “Finnish women are fat”, “Finnish women are ugly feminist lesbians” and then of course an assorted selection of quotes from the ‘Market Theory’.
I’ve had a few weeks breather from that forum, because it’s supposed to be open topic but instead every day it’s misogynist troll day.

And I have to say I love the blue rinse on grey hair! I don’t know why it gives such a badass feel, even moreso than the purple hue. Maybe anti-feminists know that the older people we got it from are tough biscuits and immediately worry when young women follow their example? Is there a name for blue dye phobia? We’ll have to name the discovery.

Also, if you ever meet that guy in real life, just tell him:
“Ketään ei kiinnosta sun seisokkis!”

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Tip. Of. The. Iceberg. Before diving into the scary world of Roosh, Paul and other friends I swear I thought I’d heard it all.
Other favourite topics (also deserving of multiple posts per day): “Finnish women are uglier than estonian/swedish/russian (etc.)”, “Finnish women are fat”, “Finnish women are ugly feminist lesbians” and then of course an assorted selection of quotes from the ‘Market Theory’.
I’ve had a few weeks breather from that forum, because it’s supposed to be open topic but instead every day it’s misogynist troll day.

Ugh, I don’t blame you. That all sounds downright wearisome. After a while, at the very least, I’d be chiding the troll to come up with something new and less boring, if he could…and if not, to shut up already.

And I have to say I love the blue rinse on grey hair! I don’t know why it gives such a badass feel, even moreso than the purple hue. Maybe anti-feminists know that the older people we got it from are tough biscuits and immediately worry when young women follow their example? Is there a name for blue dye phobia? We’ll have to name the discovery.

There should be a name for that, preferably from the Greek…and I think you’re onto something with the tough-cookie theory, too. Old ladies tend to take no shit, and that’s why old men fear them and chase after young things so much.

Also, if you ever meet that guy in real life, just tell him:
“Ketään ei kiinnosta sun seisokkis!”

I wonder if that would fit on a t-shirt? (There is one that actually says that in English; you can google it sometime.)

And I’d say the Helsinki Complaints Choir could use that as a new verse for their famous song, too:

Leda Atomica
Leda Atomica
5 years ago

Adding to list of complaints: all my money will be spent on a t-shirt. And they had to have a bag as well!

Here is an excellent list of ancient greek words for the search term ‘blue’. I think it’s just a matter of pick-and-choose:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/definitionlookup?type=begin&q=blue&target=greek

If you don’t read greek alphabets, I recommend going to the drop box on the right and choosing ‘beta code’ (tee hee!) where it says Greek display.

Virtually Out of Touch
Virtually Out of Touch
5 years ago

“Like I said, if your position is that vanilla appropriation of authentic kinky stuff is a problem, I agree. On the other hand, if your position is that all kinky stuff is problematic because of the culture in which it takes place, I agree with the sentiment but disagree with the conclusion. If your position is that kink is inherently wrong full stop, then fuck you.”

EJ, I’m not kinky myself and don’t know enough about people who are to say either way. What I m saying is basically the first two. Its all well and good if sincere people in the authentic kink scene exercise self-awareness around patriarchy and sexism. But from what I’m hearing, reading, seeing, even experienced first hand, “regular guys” i.e. sexists, see this as a way of gaining access to what they call either “naturally submissive” or “broken” women in order to dominate them and do them further psychological harm, and basically take out all this pent up anger and frustration on them that what they call our “feminized” society supposedly doesn’t allow them to “anymore” . . Also any depiction of this lifestyle shown in mainstream media is the woman being the sub one. 50 Shades, documentaries, you name it. Its always female subs.

guy
guy
5 years ago

And I can guarantee you that the middle-class white college demographic has had an impact on anime, as much as any aspect of Japanese culture.

Not so much, no. The primary market for anime is people in Japan. The American market is generally an afterthought, if the anime was originally intended for export at all; quite possibly the most popular anime of all time, Doraemon, a kids show about a time-traveling robot cat, got its first English release last year. The middle-class white college demographic isn’t really even the biggest market in America; the consistent top-selling franchises are targeted at younger audiences.

If the primary target market was the middle-class white college demographic, the shows would be created in English and not Japanese.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@Virtually:

Again, I feel that you’re conflating BDSM as it is practised between kinksters, and BDSM as it is represented in mainstream media. Each has its issues but they are not the same issues; and in either case, it is not fair to condemn a subculture because of the way that it is depicted by people outside of that subculture.

As you’ve pointed out, the world sadly does include men of an abusive, resentful, patriarchal mindset who will refer to what they do as kink. In my experience, however, such people fare very poorly in the scene and will tend to get blacklisted very quickly. Where they are much more common is on the internet, especially on the tumblr BDSM porn community; and again that’s less “BDSM” than it is “people talking about BDSM”; that is, the depiction of the activity rather than the activity itself.

I’m choosing to try to respond as evenly and fairly as I can to what you’ve said because I’m aware that many people are reading this and I’d like them to come away feeling that this is a nice friendly website full of friendly people (which it is.) That said, I feel that you are condemning something which you do not understand, and basing those condemnations on second-hand, partial and incomplete information; and that this is untoward behaviour. Do you feel that this is a fair thing for me to say?

Virtually Out of Touch
Virtually Out of Touch
5 years ago

“Do you feel that this is a fair thing for me to say?”

No, because I already stated, “EJ, I’m not kinky myself and don’t know enough about people who are to say either way.”

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Adding to list of complaints: all my money will be spent on a t-shirt. And they had to have a bag as well!

Here is an excellent list of ancient greek words for the search term ‘blue’. I think it’s just a matter of pick-and-choose:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/definitionlookup?type=begin&q=blue&target=greek

If you don’t read greek alphabets, I recommend going to the drop box on the right and choosing ‘beta code’ (tee hee!) where it says Greek display.

Hmmm. Looks like for “liking blue”, the word would be benetophilia, while blue-haters would be benetophobes. Trichos is Greek for hair, so blue-hair-haters would be benetotrichophobes.

Voilà, we have some new vocabulary to drive menzers up the wall with!

Virtually Out of Touch
Virtually Out of Touch
5 years ago

“As an analogy for EJ’s point about most kink porn being deliberately made with a vanilla audience in mind, consider rap music–the most commercial stuff out there is deliberately made to appeal to the prejudices of the white young adult male who lives in the suburbs–because that’s where the money is. So lots of misogyny, stereotypical portrayals of ‘the Hood’, and so on. ”

Exactly. And that such overt displays of misogyny and other hateful, dysfunctional portrayals are made mainstream and exported all over the world, the entire world thinks “this is how it is, or should be, because famous, rich Americans are doing it”. Meanwhile the US presents itself as the spreader of democracy, equal rights, womens’ rights everywhere and its all a very confusing message.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Trichobenetophilia sounds more pronounceable than benetotrichophobia; can we use that instead please?

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Grrr.

Trichobenetophobia sounds more pronounceable than benetotrichophobia; can we use that instead please?

Virtually Out of Touch
Virtually Out of Touch
5 years ago

Dodom | October 30, 2015 at 8:56 am

“My experience with BDSM was that anal is an obligation. ”

– WOW.

” I entirely quit kink, finding a dominant guy that doesn’t think domming means vanilla sex plus fingers in butt was too hard.”

– Hmmmm.

Luzbelitx | October 30, 2015 at 8:58 am

“Hey, I’m really enjoying all this BDSM stuff!”

– I’m glad I brought it up.

“I agree the is no “one way” of feeling/experiencing BDSM and it’s mostly influenced by whatever worldview we have before we practice it.”

– The predominating world view is patriarchy.

“As for communities being egalitarian -or not- my experience is, yes they are somewhat more egalitarian (at least the ones I’ve participated in) but not in an obvious way.”

– “somewhat” and “non-obvious” is not enough in a dom/sub culture. Being vague in such a scenario is problematic.

“I actually became a self-defined feminist because of the exchanges going on in that community, because I’ve never met such vocal feminists… AND anti-feminists.”

– Anti-feminists in such a sub-culture where bondage, domination, submission, sadism and masochism are experimented with are extremely worrying.

“I realized with time, that old straigh dom dudes feelt extremely threatened by the slightly more diverse community than they are used to, so they -being MRA leaning from the begnning- take more and more radical positions, which are ignored or shrugged off by most people, even when being overtly aggressive or bigoted.”

– I can just imagine.

“So it is a hostiler environment for women and feminists”

– I can’t imagine it being anything but.

Nazrala
Nazrala
5 years ago

Related.

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/10/30/newsweek-mischievously-compares-feminists-to-vampire-bats/

Feminists being compared to vampire bats, most Breitbart commenters thinks it is cruel toward the bats.

Luzbelitx
5 years ago

“I agree the is no “one way” of feeling/experiencing BDSM and it’s mostly influenced by whatever worldview we have before we practice it.”

– The predominating world view is patriarchy.

Well… Yes? Isn’t it like, the base for any feminist analysis?

Are you implying we should abstain from any activity that can be potentially colonized by patriarchy, which is, every activity ever under the sun?

Otherwise, I’d like you to expand on this because I don’t really get your point (or somehow you’re implying I missed it? Not sure either).

“As for communities being egalitarian -or not- my experience is, yes they are somewhat more egalitarian (at least the ones I’ve participated in) but not in an obvious way.”

– “somewhat” and “non-obvious” is not enough in a dom/sub culture. Being vague in such a scenario is problematic.

That’s why I developed this idea in the following paragraph.

Anti-feminists in such a sub-culture where bondage, domination, submission, sadism and masochism are experimented with are extremely worrying

Antifeminists are everywhere. Deal with it. We are not required to build a culture which successfully excludes them before we enjoy our lives.

Is your point again that we should avoid all and any activity in which vulnerability of any kind is involved and anti-feminists are around?

I agree it is worrying, and often discouraging, but bottom line remains: so what.

I will take care of myself and those around me, and push for a healthier community overall. Do you think I should quit the community entirely and leave behind anyone who might benefit from my presence there?

“So it is a hostiler environment for women and feminists”

– I can’t imagine it being anything but.

…and that’s why you’re ignoring the second half of the sentence, and the following paragraph in which I expand the idea even further with an example.

Orion
5 years ago

Dodom,

Would you mind clarifying a little what kind of bdsm experience you’re talking about? Clubs, parties, social media, private relationships? I ask because at the clubs and parties I’m personally familiar with, anal sex was actually quite rare. Hell, PIV intercourse was a bit uncommon. Not all spaces even allow sex; at the one I’m most familiar with, sex is permitted but considered a bit gauche. It’s half “no one wants to see it” and half kink elitists who would rather make BDSM its own thing that’s completely distinct from civilian sex. I know that the biggest space in my city is somewhat friendlier to sex, but I still got the impression that the more difficult kinds of sex happened mostly in private.

littleknown
littleknown
5 years ago

@VOoT:

Saying that “It’s always female subs”, and that women are never portrayed as dominants, is quite an exaggeration. A quick Google search gave me this: List of dominatrices in popular culture.

I will be the first to say that 50 Shades is an extremely problematic relationship, and that some of the characters in that pop culture list are sexist. But characters like Lady Heather in CSI, for example, hardly fit with the narrative that women are “always subs” in media portrayals of BDSM.