UPDATE 10/25/16: If you’ve come here after reading about a petition to cancel screenings of The Red Pill, I ask you to NOT sign any such petitions. It’s just free publicity for them. Read more of my thoughts on the matter here.
Dear Cassie Jaye,
Congratulations. You surpassed your Kickstarter fundraising goal yesterday, more than two weeks before the Kickstarter campaign was scheduled to come to a close. You’ve funded the postproduction work on your long-delayed documentary on Men’s Rights activists, and then some.
But I’m not sure that the person I should be congratulating is you. Last night Paul Elam of A Voice for Men – the central subject of your film – was doing his own victory lap online. And no wonder, because he seems to be the real victor here.
In a post on his site that managed to be giddy and vindictive at once, he offered his congratulations to you, then, well, to himself. “Even though the victory goes to Ms. Jaye,” he wrote, in an awkward attempt at modesty, “I have the need to offer up some thanks.”
And then he spelled out why he thinks your “victory” is really a victory for him.
For the past six years AVFM has had mud kicked in its face by a corrupt, left-wing media. Bottom feeders like Adam Serwer, Jeff Sharlet and Mariah Blake have performed endless unscrupulous acts, directly lying to their readers in order to attack AVFM, this movement and me personally.
Their work was not just to harm me, or to damage a website but to make sure if they could that the message we carry never found its way to the larger public. Their intent was and is to paint an indelible stain on all of us so hideous that we would never be taken seriously by enough people to matter.
They have failed, and I can now predict that they have failed miserably.
In other words, Paul Elam thinks he and his friends in what he ludicrously calls the “Men’s Human Rights Movement” have bought and paid for a feature-length advertisement for them.
And it’s not hard to see why Elam – and the other manospherians who’ve rallied around your film in recent days — think this. After all, they are the ones who have rescued your film from oblivion by pouring tens of thousands of dollars into your Kickstarter.
And all it took for you to unleash this torrent of money was an interview with one of the sleaziest figures in right-wing journalism, Milo Yiannopoulos of Breitbart.
In the interview, posted on Monday, you complained that “I won’t be getting support from feminists. They want a hit piece and I won’t do that.”
There was more than a little bit of irony in the fact that you were saying this to a man infamous for his many hit pieces on so-called “Social Justice Warriors.”
You also complained about an intern on your film who, you said, “had a lot of crying attacks and emotional experiences. She claimed everything I was showing her was triggering her.”
A young feminist “triggered” and crying. This is red meat to the Breitbart crowd, and I have to assume you knew this when you told Milo this story.
To an outside observer like me, this shameful pandering looks a lot like a Hail Mary play on your part. Having failed to convince most potential funders of the film that you would present anything close to an accurate picture of the Men’s Rights movement, you told Breitbart what its readers – and the broader manosphere – wanted to hear.
And it worked. Men’s Rights activists, self-professed “Red Pillers” and other assorted antifeminists rallied around your film, and the money started flowing.
On Reddit, the moderators of the Men’s Rights subreddit “stickied” an appeal to donate to your Kickstarter to the top of their front page, urging MRAs to open their wallets in order to show skeptics that “we can take part in some actual activism and not just post stuff in here.”
Even the regulars in the violently misogynistic Red Pill subreddit agreed to help bankroll your film.
And it wasn’t just Men’s Rights and “Red Pill” Redditors who organized support for your film. One right-wing Red Pill blogger, notorious for his harassment of ideological enemies, pledged to match donations up to $10,000, describing your documentary as “the Movie SJWs Do Not Want You to See.”
Meanwhile, on her blog, AVFM’s “social media director” Andrea Hardie (an internet bully better known under her pseudonyms Janet Bloomfield and “Judgy Bitch”) not only rallied her readers around your Kickstarter but also set up a gofundme of her own, raising money in hopes that it would buy Breitbart’s Yiannopoulos a producer credit in your film. (I hope that is out of the question, even if she raises more than the paltry amount she’s raised for this purpose so far.)
And then there was Elam himself, on Twitter, calling on his followers to, in his words, “Help fund #RedPillMovie because fuck feminists!”
https://twitter.com/AVoiceForMen/status/658700057311506432
Accepting money from these people would seem to be a pretty clear violation of the principles you set forth in your own Kickstarter video, in which you declared that
in order to keep this film non-partisan, and respectfully show all sides to this debate, we won’t accept funding from organizations that inevitably have biased agendas.
Instead, you have chosen to take money from people who see your film as a chance to say “fuck you” to feminists. You have chosen to take money from the actual subjects of your film.
You are making a film about Men’s Rights Activists, funded to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars by Men’s Rights Activists. You are making a film about A Voice for Men funded in part by A Voice for Men.
Does that not trouble you at all? It should. In your interview with Breitbart, you noted that “films that support one side and act as propaganda do better than those that try to have an honest look.”
You said this, presumably, to set yourself apart from such propagandists. Now you seem to have cast your lot in with them.
Which I suppose makes sense, since the clips of your film that you’ve posted online so far look a lot more like propaganda than they do like any sort of honest look at the Men’s Rights movement,
I felt uneasy about your project from the start, concerned that you had been pulled in by the soothing but misleading rhetoric that MRAs spout when they are trying to sound more respectable than they really are, rather than on what MRAs actually say and do when the cameras are off of them.
But I knew you had a good reputation as a filmmaker, and heard good things from several feminists who knew you better than I did. So I held my tongue and tried my best to give you the benefit of the doubt, even when you posted clips from your film that portrayed AVFMers as heroic underdogs rather than the misogynists and malicious harassers that they really are.
When I wrote you a little over a week ago with some of my concerns, you assured me in the phone call that followed that the clips you had posted were only part of the story, that you were well aware that the MRAs you had interviewed were on their best behavior when talking to you, and that the real story of the Men’s Rights movement is far less rosy-hued. Against my better judgement, I continued to hold on to some kind of hope that you would live up to your reputation in the end.
And now, frankly, I feel like I’ve been played.
Unfortunately, it looks like you have been played too, much more spectacularly than I have. I suspect you are doing far more damage to your reputation than you even know.
One thing I have learned in five years of watching, and writing about, and dealing with, the Men’s Rights movement, is that if Paul Elam is happy about something, that thing is almost certainly terrible.
I suspect, sadly, that you will ultimately learn this lesson yourself, the hard way.
PS: In our phone conversation, you suggested that if you were able to fund your film, you might be able to finally film the interview with me that we originally had planned to do, but which fell through due to financial and other practical obstacles during the original filming of The Red Pill. At this point, I am sorry to say, that is completely out of the question.
@ valentine
Adding to the sympathies.
It’s obviously not for me to say how you should choose to handle this; that’s entirely a matter for you. Just to be boringly pragmatic for a moment though, one thing I would suggest is you keep a log of any abuse you get. Time, place, what was said/done, any other people present etc. That way if you need to take any action in the future you’ve got a contemporaneous record with all the details.
@IK
because that is airy-fairy bullshit. We live in a world where people do things they shouldn’t. We can do our best as parents to tell our children what they should not do and punish them when they do. What we can’t do is control what other parents are telling their kids is acceptable.
My kids are obviously a lot more perceptive than you. Just telling a child they should “never” hit people is a smart message that will keep them safe (lol!). I teach my kids not to hit first, to always try and use words but guess what, if that does not work you have a right, no an obligation, to defend yourself.
Ever been hit by someone (my guess is if you are as aggressive and insulting as you are here that you may have taken a few shots)? Usually it is followed be a second strike and then a third and fourth… The world is not some controlled environment. People aren’t always nice to you. My job as a parent is to teach my kids right from wrong but also to make them aware that other kids are not taught those lessons.
@Valentine
Have all the hugs and thanks for risking sharing that to make your point.
@David
Well, Jerry’s only contribution so far has been awful French and citing Debra W Soh – EJ has stated just how credible a source that is. On the other hand, Jerry makes the thread glitch and it’s a pain, and I’m also pretty sure he’s tried to call Scildfreja something while (poorly) disguising it as an interjection in French, and only dug that hole deeper when I called him out on it.
Now I don’t wanna be definitive on that last offense because it could also be he’s just that bad at French, but if it’s actually what he meant then he needs banned asap.
@Mildly
you seriously need me to provide stats on the fact that more men are murdered each year? Really? Here you go
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/legal10a-eng.htm
I vote for banning shapman.
This is twice now that he has alluded to “wimminz gettin what they deserve for being mouthy”.
@shapman,
I’ve been reading you and the other trolls on the board. Just bc only a few people are responding, doesn’t mean there aren’t thousands of people reading your responses. Think about that. You are not a champion of whatever it is you think you are doing here. You are protraying yourself as a piece of shit, bc I, along with many others, can read between your not-so-subtle bullshit of victim blaming.
@ everybody
And airy fairy?
Is that homophobic? Cause where I come from, discussing fighting and then mentioning “airy fairy” sounds really fucking homophobic.
For everyone railing against having the discussion be more inclusive rather than dividing issues by gender, I will never convince you.
For those saying that boys/mens are not marginalised in some areas I encourage you to read Michael Thompson’s Raising Cain: Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys.
@cornychips
Yeah, seems pretty homophobic to me.
@ Valentine
I’m so sorry. My late partner used to work weeks on a boat. It was hard. From what he told me, the social dynamics made things harder. Lying, shit stirring, etc were relentless. It even affected his performance. You are not alone in your distress. I don’t have any magical words for you, just to document EVERYTHING, cover your ass, and get the fuck out when you can without ruining your career or burning bridges. Good luck.
just a follow-up to The Raising Cain post, Thompson captures much of what I am trying to illustrate beginning at 49:52. If you do not want to watch the whole video watch that section.
@Shapman
That would be, as far as I can tell, none of us saying either of those. Nice attempt at a strawman though. (oh, and men is already plural, might want to think a bit more while posting)
@js
shapman literally cannot write without screeching “what about the mens?!!!” lol
I see Asshole Andy has finally dropped the pretense that he’s an innocent family man who was screwed over by the meanie pants family court system and his meanie pants ex wife and revealed what a rage filled ass boil he really his.
It’s troubling that someone who thinks fist fights are an inevitability of life is responsible for children. I’ve been opinionated my whole life and never have been in one.
But it is hilarious that someone who thinks that if a person has taken punches, that must mean they deserved it thinks of himself as a champion of abused men.
I also can’t help but notice that when Valentine shared his story of being an assault victim, all three of the trolls in this thread who have been posing as people who are concerned about men’s welfare have all failed to express any kind of sympathy for him. It’s a perfect opportunity to practice what they preach.
@Valentine, I’m so sorry. I hope you are OK. Sending circumnavigatory hugs, if acceptable, to wherever you may be.
This site is full of:
– grammar police
– parenting experts
– and… man-haters – unless of course those men share ALL of your opinions and dare not question the feminist gospel known as The Patriarchy
again, most of you are part of the problem plaguing the discussion on gender issues and will not contribute to any reasonable dialogue and thus change.
Hey, Shappy. If you like inclusivity so much, you should be objecting to Jerry’s insistence that only Jewish and Asian men are suited to tech jobs.
And do I have to repost my explanation of why it is that just because people don’t take kindly to you demanding they drop anything to discuss your pet issue, doesn’t mean they oppose any discussions of that issue from ever taking place anywhere at anytime?
Also, people have discussed your pet issues with you. You’re just mad that the discussion didn’t go the way you wanted.
Hey, Shapman? Why are men murdered more by other men? And how the fuck is that feminism’s fault?
And how is teaching your children to hit first helping that?
It’s not about defense with you, is it? It’s about teaching them offense.
Shapman, you are a fucking troll.
As I’ve said before my feelings should not be a part of banning decisions since I’m not one of the people primarily harmed by such. Outside of that I don’t see that they have the social skills necessary for an argument. Shapman for example is still whining about having to cite their sources. They don’t see making others do his work as rude. Every assertion made they should be ready to provide reason and they act like a child.
When the set of trolls do manage to provide a citation often they then expect you to do their thinking and communication for them as they fail to tie fact to specific claim. This goes for data or words spoken by others including posters here. This is basic shit and they can’t handle it.
What’s your definition of a manhater, Shapman?
I ask because I have a hypothesis and I want to test it.
Oh, I don’t know, Shapman, this site seems to be pretty inclusive, as you have been allowed to spread your uneducated bullshit here.
@wwth
I knew this tired screed of what about the menz was old. Ole cry baby Andy, who comes in to yell at women for making his life so hard bc he doesn’t have 100% custody and the Canadian (was it Canadian?) courts are just THE WORST. And women are just THE WORST, THE WORST!, bc sometimes Andy doesn’t get everything he wants. THE WORST!
And grammar police? lolololololo
weak sauce at a wannabe insult
Shapman is so salty that i can see salt crystals forming all over my laptop.
Andrew’s first post from November 16, 2016
You came here with the intent to offend, with your disingenuous bullshit about how you perceive feminists.
If you want rational discourse, do not walk into a room and shout bullshit anti-feminist crap and expect to be treated cordially. You’ve been smug and condescending from the start. You get what you give.
@shapman
See my dad, for all his Mexican Machismo bullshit, taught me to punch back, or run, or talk. To do whichever would best ensure my safety at that moment and to avoid escalating a conflict if it didn’t need to be escalated because that could end in something both myself and my adversary would regret.
Also yes. Wah wah. Nobody else is misreading data like you so we are all man haters. Even when you will point to an incomplete data set and shove a part of it in our faces because it sorta kinda proves you right. If you remove all the other data. And context. And analysis. And critical thought.
Also unless you are referring to an Unseelie Warrior knight in the service of Queen Mab; Mistress of Madness, Midwife to Fairies, Queen of Avalon, Middle of the Sisters, Beguiler of Men, Author of Dreams, Queen of Apples, Tyrant of the Unseelie Court, Beloved of Winter, then yeah airy fairy is homophobic as FUUUUUCK.
Well, this thread has moved along.
@Valentine, my gosh, I’m so sorry. All the hugs. I lived for three years in an isolated mining town, and my only escape from the raging manbro culture was a tiny room with a door that didn’t lock. I’m still struggling with recovering from that. It’s not the same as your situation – being on a ship or vessel is gonna be way more confining and awful. Take care of yourself, you’re worth it!
@David, I encourage WWTH’s solution. TROLL CHALLENGE TIME. They gotta stay on topic and not squirm around it. Prepare the catapults, ’cause I don’t know if they can do that.
Okay! I’m sure I’ve missed important stuff, but there’s just so much nonsense back there. Let’s see. I’m just going to respond to Jerry here, because – lol, well. You’ll see.
http://img06.deviantart.net/1821/i/2011/177/6/5/winking_fluttershy_by_tecknojock-d3k2rwe.png
@Jerry … ohmigosh Jerry. Debra Soh? Really?
She’s got five published articles. One of which is, I kid you not, “A peek inside a furry convention.” As a sociologist? Great article. As a neurologist? lol what?
Hold on, wait. I have to go read this thing. It’s gotta be amazing. I can’t wait for the rock-solid statistics in this thing!
(an interminable pause)
aaaaheheheeeheee! Oh my gosh, Jerry, thank you for introducing me to this person. Sweet maple Moses, guyse. Here’s how it starts.
“I couldn’t wait to meet a furry, someone who adopts the
identity or persona of an anthropomorphized animal in social—
and often sexual—interactions (‘‘Furry,’’ 2014)…”
This thing reads like an article for a magazine! Ohmigosh, guyse, come read the first page of this ground-breaking edge-of-her-field Doctor of Neuroscience. It’s brilliant. And that was written just a year before she defended her PhD!
(note – no hate on furries! It’s just silly to see that a super duper important neurologister was writing articles like a writer for Teen Vogue a year before her defense. No, scratch that – Teen Vogue’s awesome, they would have better prose than this stream-of-consciousness stuff goin’ on here.)
Now, to be a bit more serious – she does have some good papers on structural neuroanatomy, though I have to point out that she isn’t anything special. Any PhD in that field will have similar output in the amount of time she’s had (though probably less narrative). She got her PhD in June 2016. From what it looks like, though, she’s just leaning into an opinion-piece career. She’s not employed in a lab and is just writing opinion pieces, using the weight of a degree to cudgel opposition and convince rubes.
She has five publications. Two list her as the primary author. One of those is about neuroscience; it’s about whether a particular program affects children with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. It’s a fairly standard ROXO before-after neuroimaging study, n=13. Small, bite-sized, nothing dramatic. I might be able to pull off this study if someone gave me the output of the MRI machines.
Let me say this more clearly – She has no publications about gender differences in brains. And no one’s critiquing her because she hasn’t done anything noteworthy.
Meanwhile, there’s Dr Daphna Joel, who is actually working in her field, with dozens of papers. Some are under debate, sure! That’s what good papers get. And those papers are about gender differences in brains.
You don’t get to decide who is and isn’t a proper neuroscientist, Jerry. The scientists of those fields get to. Dr Joel has hundreds of citations and a lively discussion around her work. You may not like her – and she might even be wrong – but she’s a real neuroscientist. Dr Soh has 19 citations, and isn’t doing any work in her field. The fact that you consider her a “real” neuroscientist and Joel a “fake” one is the definition of external bias influencing your opinions.
Please, Jerry. Stop bringing up actual science. You look ridiculous.
Whew! That was fun. I take it back, Jerry. Spit some more science truth at me. Every time you do I find out something funny or awesome. Now I know Dr Daphna Joel and her great work, and I know about Dr Debra Soh and this silly fun sexology paper. Let’s see it, gimme another!
http://i2.wp.com/gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/fluttershy-gif-3.gif
Let’s also not pretend that anti-feminists would be satisfied if we did spend a ton of time talking about men’s issues. A lot of people here will already know this, but a former commenter here, Ozzy used to write a blog called No Seriously, What About the Men? The blog was dedicated to men’s issues. But because the posts didn’t blame women/feminism for all of these issues, zie was inundated by similar trolls that this site gets. The manosphere still hated zir. Eventually zie was driven off the site that hosted the blog, Good Men Project because that site had become so misogynistic.
Somehow I don’t believe that if every feminist space devoted exactly half their time to discussing men’s issues that it would cause anti-feminism to disappear. They don’t hate feminism because he aren’t inclusive. They hate feminism because it opposes misogyny.
The ” I hate feminism only because (insert straw feminist position), not because I’m a misogynist” line might work on people who aren’t that familiar with either feminism or the manosphere, but it’s not going to work on us because we’ve seen that it’s a lie. It’s cute that they all think they’re the first ones to try and sell us on this though.